How This Scientifically Proven Method Can Help You Achieve Your Goals with Joanna Grover [Episode #843]

This Episode In this conversation, Dr. Ann Shippy discusses the significance of infertility as a health indicator, likening it to a check engine light that signals underlying health issues. She emphasizes the importance of both partners’ health in enhancing fertility and ensuring the birth of healthier babies. Episode Sponsors FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout.   ANIMA MUNDI OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS, benefit driven Herbal Teas infused with harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase!    Dr. Ann Shippy Resources Book: THE PRECONCEPTION REVOLUTION: A Science-Backed Path to Fertility and Generational Health Website: annshippymd.com Social: @annshippymd Bio: Dr. Ann Shippy is a Board-Certified Internal Medicine physician and certified Functional Medicine practitioner based in Austin, Texas. With a background in chemical engineering and a successful career at IBM, she transitioned to medicine after facing her own complex health challenges—an experience that fuels her passion for uncovering and addressing the root causes of illness. Her work centers around four key areas of expertise: longevity, health span (increasing the number of years lived in vibrant, disease-free health), unlocking better outcomes through personalized, data-driven care, and preconception—supporting couples as they prepare to conceive the healthiest baby possible. Using advanced testing and epigenetic insights, Dr. Shippy empowers patients to activate the body’s innate ability to heal, thrive, and even reverse chronic conditions. Motivated by the alarming rise in childhood illness, Dr. Shippy felt a deep urgency to provide answers. That urgency led her to write The Preconception Revolution: A Science-Backed Path to Your Fertility and Generational Health—a hope-filled guide that empowers couples to take control of their fertility and future family health. The book offers a clear, actionable blueprint for reversing the childhood health crisis—one healthy baby at a time. With degrees from Washington University in St. Louis, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and the University of Texas, Dr. Shippy brings a unique blend of engineering precision and medical insight to her work. Her practice—Ann Shippy, MD— is dedicated to helping individuals live better—and get better—with age. SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo  

This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr, Jenneffer Pulapaka Summary: In this episode, Kimberly and Dr. Jenneffer Pulapaka discuss the importance of heart health and the role of a plant-based diet in achieving it. She shares her journey into lifestyle medicine, emphasizing the need for a holistic approach to health that includes diet, exercise, and sleep. The discussion covers common misconceptions about protein intake, the impact of inflammation on health, and the benefits of cooking with whole foods. Dr. Pulapaka also highlights the affordability of healthy eating and the significance of understanding the nutritional value of everyday foods.   About Dr, Jenneffer Pulapaka JENNEFFER PULAPAKA, DPM, is a Board-Certified Podiatric Physician Diplomate from the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. A trained podiatric surgeon who specializes in diabetic limb salvage, she is the founder of DeLand Foot and Leg Center. She focuses on Peripheral Vascular Disease, holds a Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate, and is a Culinary Health Education Fundamentals (CHEF) Coach. A Certified Sommelier, she also has 15+ years of experience in menu planning and event design in the restaurant industry and has been a featured sommelier at the James Beard Foundation House. Along with her professional chef husband Hari Pulapaka, she founded Cress Restaurant and they both live in DeLand, FL. They are the co-authors of The Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook.   Guest Resources: Website: www.delandpodiatry.com Book: The Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook   Episode Sponsors: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY   GLOWING GREENS POWDER OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Heart Health and Plant-Based Diets02:56 The Confusion Around Dietary Trends05:58 Understanding Protein and Kidney Health09:10 The Role of Inflammation in Heart Disease11:55 Personal Journey to Plant-Based Living14:47 Cooking with Whole Foods and Spices17:51 The Importance of Fiber and Gut Health20:58 Exploring Nutritional Benefits of Everyday Foods23:51 The Impact of Sleep on Health26:59 Affordable Healthy Eating29:48 Final Thoughts on Heart Health and Lifestyle SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo   Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.494)Hi Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on our show today. Jenneffer Pulapaka (00:06.162)Thank you for having me, Kimberly. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:09.282)You know, when your book came across my desk and once again, everyone’s called the Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook, it really caught my eye because I’ve been so interested, especially in the heart lately, the heart, the physical heart, you know, from a health perspective, from a dietary perspective, also from an energetic perspective, a spiritual perspective, how the heart is mentioned in all these different traditions around the world. But I wondered… And you tell a little bit about this in the beginning of your book, but if you could share with us why your focus has really honed in on heart health in particular. Jenneffer Pulapaka (00:46.888)Well, for me, so I am the pioneer of podiatric lifestyle medicine. And a majority of the patients that I see have lower extremity vascular disease with cardiac complications. So that’s the over, the broad overreaching patient population that I treat. And when dealing with patients, I was a typical physician that would treat patients with conventional medicine, was, you want surgery or do you want a pill? And lifestyle medicine allowed me to handle patients more broader with treatments, such as using diet, using sleep, reducing stress, exercise. reducing substance abuse, things like that, that I started to be able to include pillars in their healthcare and see a better outcome in patients. So for me, that’s why it was important. Just because I think I was getting burned out with just, it was the same thing all the time, pills or surgery, pills or surgery, referral, cardiovascular, interventional, cardiologists, what are we doing? And we were not getting off the wheel. You’re just kind of stuck in that cycle. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:00.536)Great. Jenneffer Pulapaka (02:10.875)and you weren’t regaining ground, you weren’t regaining your health, nothing positive was coming out of it except for trying to prevent a catastrophic event. So that’s why a heart healthy cookbook is really key to a majority of my patients. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:21.974)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:31.84)Right. And I want to get into that in a moment. There’s such great information here, but one of the things you said is that we’re on the wheel. Many people are on the wheel. And one of the reasons I think people are on the wheel is because they’re confused. And there’s so much information out there, Jennifer, as you know. And it feels like to me, you know, there is decades of And sort of this general idea that we should limit red meat in particular and these foods that have high cholesterol, foods that feel clogging and common sense as these are really dense foods. But now we’re in a time in culture where there’s, it’s sort of swung, feels like back when I started writing books 11 years ago, I was always talking about this protein question that would come up being plant-based myself. How do you end up protein? And now there’s this such an over emphasis on protein. And what I see, Jennifer, is confusion. People are eating tons of red meat and they’re like, well, I saw such and such and they say that can eat as much red meat as I want or I should sit down and have six eggs. Can you talk to us a little bit about this confusion about cholesterol, foods that are elevating blood pressure, all the research for many decades that don’t correlate necessarily with these health trends or I don’t say health trends. Jenneffer Pulapaka (03:52.72)I mean, that’s great. That is what they are, okay? Bell bottoms, they’re not in fashion right now. They have been in fashion. They went out of fashion. They came back in briefly and they’re out. That’s kind of what we cycle when we deal with food trends. Different diets will keep on coming up historically. But unfortunately, there’s not enough peer-reviewed literature to be behind them. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:53.954)dietary trends. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:06.082)Yes. Jenneffer Pulapaka (04:22.331)We don’t have a big enough population to evaluate certain diets that are out there and nor is there research behind it. So those for me are always risky when it comes to patients. So we’d like to stay when I’m looking at or evaluating diets with patients. I always tell my patients when they were talking about plant-based, they’re like, well, can I add chicken? I’m like, well, you’ve been adding chicken in it and we’re here right now. I’m the thing that’s gotta cause a bump. Why don’t we learn how to not add chicken and not use butter and use a substitute to make it a more healthy option for you? Because what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working. That’s kind of where we are. I only use peer-reviewed literature for the most part. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:05.11)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (05:16.677)And it’s for me, it’s very hard because right now I do see a trend of patients who come in, they think they’re on a ketogenic diet. They’re not on a ketogenic diet. They’re never in ketoacidosis. They’re never reducing their amount of carbs to get to that state. And most of my patients are complicated patients, meaning that they have diabetes, vascular disease. Chances are they have chronic kidney disease. When we’re dealing with a lot of comorbidities with patients, we have to be very cognizant when they’re taking high protein diets. One of my biggest concerns is my kidney patients. High protein diets does not bode well for kidney function long term. And Kidego, which Kidney Disease International, when they put out guidelines, the last several years, the primary treatment for Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:58.625)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (06:15.719)chronic kidney disease in patients was diet and lifestyle. So it was nice that we saw a really good bump or a really good change in how we’re addressing patients with chronic disease. So now that we had a patient with chronic disease, maybe they don’t even know they’re stage three chronic kidney disease. And now they’re just loading up on all these proteins, which kidneys have to strip off nitrogen and it really taxes the kidneys. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:39.467)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (06:46.853)And unfortunately, it usually puts them in a downward spiral towards stage four. And at stage three, we have some really good studies that look at, can we get an improvement in kidney function if we decrease the amount of unused proteins? For the most part, my patients are not active. I am usually negotiating, can I get three days a week? Just three days a week, can you do 30 minutes three days a week? And the standard of care is exercise is five days a week, 30 minutes, moderate intensity. So when my patients tell me I need the protein, I’m like, no, not to walk the Pomeranian, a half a block, that’s not really exercise. I’m glad we’re doing range of motion and I’m glad you’re not doing sedentary, but you’re not really in an exercise state to be getting a lot of benefit. I don’t need to worry about protein issues with you. Now, when I deal with wound care patients, I deal with them. Or if I deal with dialysis patients, when I have a nutritionist, registered dietician that’s on board, then we’re looking at protein loss, but we’re not talking about a majority of patients that are on that. We’re talking about they got a, they went on Pinterest and they got some keto balls, which are hugely high in fat and protein. And nothing about that is gonna help with inflammation, their heart, their blood flow, or their weight. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:58.806)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (08:13.201)Right? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:14.752)Yeah. Well, you what you say makes sense and it makes sense to me. And then there’s Dan Buettner, who’s been on our podcast several times. He’s coming back on in December, who’s saying, Hey, look at these human populations, which are eating really fiber rich diets. They’re not hyper fixating on protein. And yet their longevity numbers are the best in the world. Then you have Dr. Michael, Dr. Michael Greger, who also came on with all his thousands of studies. He’s referencing saying, Hey, Look at the research. So why do you think Dr. Jennifer, from your perspective as a physician, you know, it’s like people are going on Pinterest, but I’m also seeing some doctors being like, you know, double the amount of grams that you’re hearing, you know, the recommended doses, one gram per body weight. Where is this coming from? How can, in our culture, we can have such differing views of the research. Jenneffer Pulapaka (08:45.532)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:12.308)And to me, common sense, if you want to open up your blood flow, you don’t want to eat clogging foods and really fatty, dense animal foods all day. But how is this even happening in your opinion? Because it’s mind boggling to me. Jenneffer Pulapaka (09:25.489)Well, we have different specialists that are out there and everyone has a different way of treating patients. For example, okay, for a good example, I have a lot of patients who will come in for lower extremity arthritis and tendonitis and everyone will keep missing kind of the, I don’t wanna say the elephant in the room, but the fact that a lot of my patients have obesity class two, class three, and no one’s even discussed about an oral medication for them at that point in time. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:00.962)Wait. Jenneffer Pulapaka (10:04.165)Some physicians only want to treat with lifestyle medicine or diet or conservative options. So maybe that’s where these practitioners are trying to maybe cause a bump, but I still prefer to stay with evidence-based. I still want lifestyle medicine on my patients. I still talk about diet, but I’m also an advocate for GLP-1, GIPs, phenamine and topramate. I’m an advocate for that. And I’m also very realistic with them that usually when you get on a semi-glutide, you will have to stay on that for life. And then they get upset. And then I just remind them you’re not upset that you’re on lisinopril for life. So now can you look at the benefits of being on a medication long-term, how we’re going to reduce our comorbidities? Maybe you’re going to Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:44.887)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (11:03.105)reduce your diabetes, you’re going to reduce your arthritis and your tendonitis and your like my diabetic patients who have a collapse of the midfoot and I have to deal with all the bone deformity and the ulcerations. So we have a lot of comorbidities that are around obesity as a diagnosis and we haven’t allowed the patients yet flexibility to look at it as a disease and to be treated as such with medication or with diet. So I just don’t only do that. I’m there with conventional medicine, but that may explain why some doctors, like one of my patients today, she was in obesity class three and her doctor was telling her about fiber. Great, wonderful. I am glad he had that discussion, but she’s looking at one total knee on one side and now we have another total knee that’s possibly starting on the other leg. and I had all the tendonitis and tendinopathies in my ankle and in the foot. And he’s still trying to tell her to lose weight and she could lose about a good 75 pounds and then she’ll feel comfortable and then we may see start to see improvement. But he that was the way he wanted to approach it. So that may be the way some physicians want to approach it. It’s not I like better peer reviewed research and A lot of the high fat, high protein diets do not have large scale populations to be looking at. So we don’t hear the nuances. And you know, and I love the Blue Zones. We just had a dinner the other evening that my husband hosted and it was about the Blue Zones. And it was, you know, really… they just the way they eat is healthy. It’s not a planned thing. They don’t make a concerted effort to be like, I’m going to get my fiber in. I’m going to get those things. They actually just eat a more healthy way than we do. And they’ll do conservative, like they’ll have an occasional glass of wine or they’ll eat, you know, fish twice a week or meat every so often. But it’s a more realistic diet. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:07.009)Yeah, it’s Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:19.746)Well, it’s simple, I think, and it’s accessible when you’re cooking one-pot meals and you’re not hyper fixating on numbers. It starts to get really confusing when you start to get heady, I think, versus intuitive and more in your heart, what your body’s drawn to. There’s this section, Jennifer, in your book about inflammation. That’s also one of the things we know is a precursor to heart disease, to many different illnesses in the body. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:29.084)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:40.807)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:47.53)And when you are eating more fiber, it’s feeding those short chain fatty acids, which is helping to reduce inflammation. I, one of my, I’m concerned when people are just focusing on overloading protein, I’ve noticed in people, it’s like protein no matter what. So more meat, more protein bars, more protein shakes. They naturally get less of these colorful fiber-filled anti-inflammatory foods. And so it starts to create this imbalance. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:51.74)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:17.378)when you’re focusing, your compass is set towards something very different. Jenneffer Pulapaka (14:22.285)find that most patients when they’re focusing on proteins aren’t actually really talking about a whole food. They like to do bars or smoothies or supplements. They’re not actually thinking about food or whole food, whether it’s grains or beans, lentils, seeds, nuts. They’re not really there. They will with their protein. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:29.461)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (14:52.045)as in their meats, animal proteins, they will fixate on that. And some of that can be due to the fact that we live in a society that praises wealth and a sign of prosperity has been for a long time that if you eat meats, it’s a status symbol versus I’m going to have a bowl of grains and lentils. there are sometimes we have… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:13.73)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (15:17.767)food can be personal and there are barriers or boundaries that people have to get around when it comes to eating a more healthy way. Because sometimes those family recipes are not healthy. They haven’t been there and that’s why you have a family history of heart attacks, gout, kidney disease, diabetes. It’s, know, the family cycle keeps on feeding you the wrong information. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:39.053)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:44.076)Well, Dr. Jennifer, when did you become plant-based? And I know a lot of this was informed from research. And now, you your husband is, you know, a partner in ways. You guys host a lot of things together. He’s been honored by the James Beer Foundation as a featured chef, working with all these amazing foods. When did you come into this path exactly? Jenneffer Pulapaka (16:05.741)So I first took my turn at 21. I became vegetarian. I decided if I was going to eat meat, I needed to go to a slaughterhouse and appreciate or accept the way the animal was being brought to my table. So after I had that experience, I became a vegetarian. I was not comfortable with Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:18.413)Hmm? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:29.208)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (16:31.463)I was not comfortable and I could not do it and I wouldn’t do it. So I decided at that point in time to become a vegetarian. And that was a pretty rapid change for me. I gave up red meat first. gave up chicken was the last thing. And then I think I finally had like a steak as one last hurrah. And I couldn’t get through eating the steak that I wanted to because I knew it was gonna be great. I couldn’t do it knowing that I went to, it was a… It was a cattle slaughterhouse. I just was like, I can’t. So I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 21. I’m 55. So it’s been a few years. Vegan, I say as much as possible. In my house, I’m vegan. When I go out in public, it is always a battle with how much egg is going to be utilized, dairy. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:24.6)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (17:29.453)in some instances. I’m always able to get vegan vegetarian options, but vegan is a little bit difficult. And if I’m going to get it out in public, it’s usually pretty pretty bad, I say. I usually get pasta primavera. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:36.471)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:44.716)Well, that’s why Dr. Jennifer, I don’t need out very much because I feel like at home there’s, and you can eat these beautiful recipes in your cookbook. It does make it much easier when the more home meals you do eat. Jenneffer Pulapaka (17:56.008)Yeah, you get pasta primavera, plate of sides, you’ll get a salad, or now I can get like a black bean burger. That’s like the, that’s the standard that I get when I eat out. So for me, it’s hard because yes, I do have my husband who is like, you know, a super creative chef when it comes to that. And he was vegetarian until he was 21. After he came to the United States, he was here a few years and then He tried meat. in his professional career as being a chef, he’s been very broad. He cooks a lot of seafood. He’s notoriously known for producing fantastic fish dishes. But I think it was his upbringing that taught him about spice and seasoning and flavor that makes him so good about making plant-based cooking. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:55.786)Right, he grew up in India. Jenneffer Pulapaka (18:55.973)because it was second nature to him, correct. He grew up in India and he came here when he was young. And a lot of us, like I said, we do not have contact with food anymore. And when I do culinary and coaching classes with my patients, we do small group exams. I bring them in foods and we talk about things like that. Like I have an example. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:20.617)Well, and while you’re getting that, I want to mention there’s some call-outs in the book and I want to get into some of the specific information, which is really interesting. But even to educate people, there’s a spice section in the book, you know, and it’s, this is something that everyone in India might know, for example, but here it’s saying, you know, spices are using any part of the plant, but the leaves, if you’re using the leaves, you’re, then it’s considered an herb. And if you’re not using the leaves, it’s a spice. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:30.961)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:46.737)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:49.006)So I think this appreciation and sort of deeper understanding when we’re looking at any sort of plant and the parts that we’re using starts to create a deeper connection when you’re working with herbs, when you’re working with spices, when you’re cooking. It can be really simple, but it starts to get more, it feels really connected. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:52.807)Thank Jenneffer Pulapaka (20:08.871)He does a good job. think common spice substitutions like that. was originally we did this in one of the first books that we had. You know what? That’s great. I don’t know how many it’s on page 27. I don’t know how many times my patients will ask. Well, if I don’t have fennel and they get scared about cooking recipes and like, you know, if you don’t have fennel. you know, use a substitute, you know. And if you don’t have it, just don’t use it. Move on. Find something else. Do you like gilding? You know, move forward with something, you know, but they get nervous about substitutions. And I think as you start to cook more and do more and be more hands on, then you’ll realize, you know, I don’t have lemongrass, but yeah, I just use, I just had lemon zest and I use lemon zest and I felt good enough. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:40.926)Right. You said that you- Isn’t that funny? Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:05.957)And then I wanted a little bit more herbaceousness, so I put some basil in it and that was my lemongrass. Perfect. Great substitute. Did you like the food you ate? Yes. Then it was perfect, right? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:16.142)Yeah, exactly. Again, less rigid, less heady and confused and more in flow, you know, the energetic part of being living a heart led life. And what I really liked too about the recipes, and I made a bunch of notes if you guys are watching this on her YouTube channel, I’m holding them up. There’s really great information worked into the recipes, which I appreciate. So for example, on page 42, where you talk about kale, Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:23.686)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:45.164)And one of the things that you mentioned is nitrate and nitric oxide and how it helps to open up the blood vessels contributes to the, it’s a vasoactive effector. And then it says, eat it, don’t juice it. And I’ve always been more into smoothies and kale salad instead of juice. Yeah. If you could talk a little bit about that. Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:45.799)it. Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:57.896)Yeah, I love that. Jenneffer Pulapaka (22:06.311)So, and I lecture on this one all the time when I’m talking because you have that nitrate, nitrite, nitric oxide pathway. And nitrates start in the mouth. You start to break it down by chewing. You need mastication with the saliva in order for that enzyme to start as it’s breaking down to your end result is nitric oxide. So it starts in the mouth. So therefore that’s why I’m like, you can’t do it. interesting there was a study that recently came out that was looking at toothpaste and mouthwash. So they were they’re looking into the fact that sometimes when we have this 24-hour toothpaste, well sometimes the bacteria or the enzymes that are in your mouth have a purpose and sometimes those things you know can interfere with that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:35.192)Hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:42.966)yes, I read that in here. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:49.134)you Jenneffer Pulapaka (23:02.915)It wasn’t a robust enough study, not a big enough population, but it’s an interesting point to see how is that going to play out down the line? You know, are they going to be looking more into that? Because we know you talked about inflammation, gut biome. You know, they do poo samples all the time on people who eat vegetarian, vegan, and meat, you know, and they’re looking to see which ones had the healthiest. And out of all of them, when people Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:02.957)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:24.483)Right? Jenneffer Pulapaka (23:30.213)have really aggressive disease states that they have to kill off a lot of their bacteria and restart. They’ve had surgeries, really complicated patients, and then they’re inocula

Summary: In this conversation, Kimberly speaks with Dr. Ingrid Clayton who shares her journey of understanding complex trauma and the Fawn response. After years of therapy and personal work, she reflects on her struggles with self-acceptance and healthy relationships. Through her experiences and education in psychology, she has gained new perspectives that have facilitated her healing process.   Episode Sponsors LMNT: OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS PLANT-POWERED protein blend, infused with real vanilla and harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase!   FEEL GOOD PROBIOTICS OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Episode Chapters 00:00 Understanding the Fawn Response00:35 Signs of Fawning in Relationships   SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How to Believe in Your Self Worth with Jamie Kern Lima How to Raise Your Standards In Your Love Life with Matthew Hussey How to Eat to Beat Your Diet with New York Times best selling author Dr. William Li The issues with consuming vegetable and seed oils with Dr. Catherine Shanahan How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo How to Optimize Your Metabolic Health with Dr. Casey Means TRANSCRIPT: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.436)Hi Ingrid, thank you so much for joining us today. Ingrid (00:04.802)Thanks for having me! Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:07.834)You know, I think your book really stood out to me because I only recently heard of this word fawn and fawning. And we all hear about fight and flight quite a bit because of all the nervous discussion and then freeze. But this whole fawning aspect, which of course we’re going to get into really deeply today, seems to be newer, at least in its identification. Ingrid (00:21.891)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:34.556)Can you tell us a little bit as a clinical psychologist how you even started focusing on this aspect in your work? Ingrid (00:42.666)Yeah, it’s new on the scene to just about everyone, actually. We’ve long talked about fight, flight and freeze, but I feel like fawning has been kind of hiding in plain sight and there are lots of different reasons for that. But one, think when you think about fight, flight and freeze, they look like obvious sort of trauma responses, right? You’re going against the threat. But with fawning, you’re actually leaning in. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:02.138)Yes. Ingrid (01:07.832)the source of harm. And there’s this appeasement factor, which could look like flirting or flattering or going along to get along. There’s a caretaking aspect. So it looks like you have agency. It looks like conscious choice, but actually underneath that is just like a fight, flight and freeze responses and unconscious reflexive survival mechanism. And so, you know, Pete, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:29.519)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:34.864)And why did you focus on this? Ingrid (01:36.782)Yeah, well, so Pete Walker coined the term, the Fawn response, I think in like 2013, but it’s really just coming into the mainstream now. And I come at his work and through this lens of complex trauma, which is relational trauma, in part because I’m a clinical psychologist, but more than that, I’m a childhood trauma survivor. And the reason I became a psychologist to begin with is largely because I’ve been trying to crawl out from under something that I’ve Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:01.754)Yes. Ingrid (02:05.28)lived with my whole life and none of the other frameworks ever freed me, right? Whether you talked about people pleasing or codependency or, know, it just felt like those frameworks were keeping me just as stuck as everything else I tried. And so when I came upon Pete Walker’s work and understanding these behaviors, you know, what we’ve called sort of codependent or people pleasing behaviors, in this trauma-informed lens, it was like, my word, I finally make sense to myself, right? And it just kind of set off this cascade of not only personal understanding, but my work with my clients changed. And now here we have the book on fawning. So hopefully, honestly, more people can make sense to themselves too. That’s the whole point, yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:58.074)You know, I really, think there’s, I think this is a lot more common than we realize. And I also, you know, applaud your bravery and telling some of your story in the book and sharing client stories. And I have to say Ingrid, when I started to read your book, I got a very specific feeling in my body. You know, trauma can get stored somatically and I’ve done so much work on myself, but it brought me back to Ingrid (03:04.992)Yeah. Ingrid (03:10.999)Hmm. Ingrid (03:19.403)Mmm. Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:27.41)my childhood and very early adolescence where I know you talk about being 13 and 12, 13, 14. I just remember walking around in the world and being quite innocent. And I started my period later and I started to get, my aunt said this to me, oh, you’re getting all this attention from men. And they would sort of look and be like, you here’s this, you know, what they would be pretty little girl or teenager. And I didn’t know what to do. I would smile. Ingrid (03:28.59)Mmm. Ingrid (03:33.249)Yeah. Ingrid (03:39.918)Hmm. Ingrid (03:54.349)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:56.144)or sometimes even giggle like you talk about when you’re feeling uncomfortable. And my author said to me, stop smiling. And it was almost like this shame, know, every time we went into public, don’t smile. And I remember being very confused and feeling shame and feeling like I didn’t really know what was going on. And then reading your book and I thought about it, but it just feels very complicated. There’s a complication to finding, cause we’re not trying to flirt. Ingrid (04:00.035)Yeah. Ingrid (04:04.267)Wow. Ingrid (04:09.966)Mmm. Aww. Ingrid (04:19.416)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:24.828)We’re trying to be safe. We’re trying to get out of danger. It’s very uncomfortable. But then there’s this shame that can get wrapped into it. So I started to read the book and I was like, gosh, I didn’t really dig into fawning before, but I really think that’s what was going on. Ingrid (04:33.176)That’s right. Ingrid (04:39.277)Mm-hmm. Ingrid (04:43.438)I think it is very common and I think about it this way that fawning tends to come online when fight, flight and freeze are either unavailable or would make things worse. So if you think about your example there and certainly my childhood, right, fighting back to the powers that be to, you know, largely men or your parents, they’re twice your size, they hold all the power. Yeah, it’s not going, you know, they literally hold your life in their hands. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:56.251)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:06.77)Yeah. Ingrid (05:13.454)The flight response, right, where are going to go? You’re going to be brought right back to the scene of the crime. Where are you going to go? This is wherever you go. This sort of male gaze, this threatening sort of, it’s the waters that we swim in day in, day out. And the freeze response, although also very common response to trauma, when things are so chronic and ongoing and it’s day in and it’s day out, the body found this way to adapt. I believe it is this ultimately genius adaptation to go, This is my reality, right? That I have to navigate. I can’t fight back. I can’t leave and I can’t freeze. I can’t be a deer in headlights. I got to get up and go to school every day and sit at the breakfast table and engage with these people. And so it really struck me, particularly when I was writing the book, just how many systems of power the body is navigating on any given day. And listen, the body knows where it resides in the pecking order. Like it knows that I’m not the one. at the top of the food chain. And so this reflexive thing of like, well, you hold the power. I need to make sure you’re happy in order for me to be safe and the body will always privilege safety and survival. Right? So all these historical ways that we’ve talked about some of these behaviors like, well, know, Kimberly just raised your self-esteem or smile or don’t smile. Right? It’s like you could get either side of the equation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:22.02)Five. Yes. Ingrid (06:37.026)telling you to just do all of these things that maybe seem so obvious and yet they were not available to us. And this is where the shame comes in. It’s like, you know, well, how could you stay in that relationship or how could you smile when they were being so aggressive or how could you this? How could you that? you know, shame is a deep symptom. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:45.264)Yeah Ingrid (06:59.09)of complex trauma, but you can see why too. goes hand in hand with the Fawn response that in order to keep yourself safe often and not knowingly, sometimes you have a sense of it, but often not knowing, there is this level of self abandonment, of betrayal. We know that I can’t respond to all of my values or all of what’s going to sort of honor who I am. I have to privilege this one piece first and it comes at a cost. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:15.186)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:27.268)Yes. Well, you know what it feels like Ingrid as you’re describing it and I can recall this. am feeling it and just trying to really process this trauma, which is obviously still stored somewhere in me is this feeling of being deeply misunderstood because when the Imam was saying, well, don’t smile like I was doing something wrong. It was like, wait, I didn’t ask for this attention and I don’t want this attention and I’m actually uncomfortable and I don’t know what to do. Ingrid (07:32.78)Mm. Ingrid (07:42.199)Yes. Ingrid (07:46.211)Yeah. Ingrid (07:53.996)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:54.052)And so it’s just feeling like no one else is looking after me, misunderstood on our like kind of on our own, like this feeling of aloneness, abandonment, you know? Ingrid (07:57.592)Mmm. Ingrid (08:03.032)That’s right. I think that that’s real, right? That you’re not really seen for being a whole person. And there tends to be this sort of hyper independence that develops alongside a chronic fawn response for that reason. It’s like, we’re never really fully or wholly seen by anybody else. It’s like, I’m the only one who has my back. So I have to sort of react accordingly. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:19.932)We’ll Ingrid (08:29.59)in the world. And there’s a real sadness even as you talk about it right now. think there’s such a heartbreak there that in order to keep yourself safe, you had to prioritize these men and how they were sort of looking at you. And often with fawning, it’s sort of like, don’t like you, but I need you to like me in order to stay safe. Or maybe if you do like me, you won’t hurt me. And when your body has a sense that you’re being sort of pursued or Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:51.6)Bye. Ingrid (08:56.974)and you don’t really feel safe, like you’re still a child and you’re an old man and you know, it’s like, yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to hold. It’s like you said, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:08.07)Well, Ingrid, you I think like your experiences and my experiences, I imagine a lot of women listening to this would be like, wait, I wasn’t actually sexually assaulted. No one actually, you know, did something physical, but there was uncomfortability. Can you share a little bit about, you know, what happened with your stepdad where he was, you know, having you sit on his lap in the hot tub or going to Vegas and he didn’t actually physically assault you, but there was a lot of uncomfortability. Ingrid (09:14.029)Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ingrid (09:23.032)Yeah. Ingrid (09:27.342)Mm-hmm. Ingrid (09:36.397)Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s very common that a lot of us, and this is based on sort of the old idea of trauma by definition, we looked at it as though a certain event entitled you to use that word. And those events tended to be very clear and obvious and everyone would agree, right? It’s a vet coming back from war time. It’s a car crash. It’s sexual assault. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:37.532)that went on for years. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:52.412)Right. Ingrid (10:01.347)things along those lines. And so a lot of us now, it’s like we have this trauma measuring stick that’s like, well, mine wasn’t that bad, right? And when we do that, unfortunately, we say, well, now I’ve been, I’m not allowed, I can’t avail myself of all of these tools of trauma healing that would actually be the thing that would help me, right? And so A part of what I’m hoping to do is also just educate people on complex trauma generally. Complex trauma is relational trauma. It’s ongoing experiences of threat over time. And it might not be this overt thing that everyone could name. It might be your parents, whether it was culturally or they were doing the best that they could, or maybe there’s generational trauma, but you were left feeling invalidated, like chronically invalidated or unseen. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:36.741)Right. Ingrid (10:49.455)over time, this buildup, this residue, the body learns like, oh, I can’t be my full self. Oh, it’s not safe to be me. And this sort of, know, fawning looks like this masking element of like, well, who do you need me to be in order to be included and seen and valued? And I think, yeah, this misconception of like trauma looks a certain way. It kept me on the outside for a long time, even knowing my own story, because similarly, like you said, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:12.914)Right. Ingrid (11:19.531)My stepdad didn’t like overtly sexually assault me. He was grooming me for years and it started with these, you know, seemingly innocuous, but my body felt that it was not innocuous of, you know, come on over here and sit on my lap and I’m glad we can be this close. And I knew in those moments that I wasn’t safe, but I’m also sort of clocking like, would anyone else think this was bad? Like he’s Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:46.757)Right. Ingrid (11:47.501)He’s my stepdad and he’s being nice and he’s not always nice and I like it better when he’s nice. And so I’m also leaning into that. I knew I couldn’t embarrass him. I knew that I couldn’t push back. I knew that he had another side to him where he really could steamroll me. He could be a rager. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:04.402)What about your mom? You couldn’t go to your mom. Ingrid (12:07.565)I couldn’t go to my mom in part because I saw her disappear as he came into our lives. It was like she just was in his shadow, wouldn’t say anything unless she’d heard him literally say it before. I say in the book that it was like my mom went missing even when she was standing right in front of me. It was just she was not there. Ultimately, I did do the things that we’re all told to do as though we’re all entitled to having a voice and standing up for ourselves and setting healthy boundaries as though it’s that easy. I did attempt to do those things and it made things a lot worse because now I had a stepfather who was grooming me, parading me around as a girlfriend and a mom who didn’t believe me. They were like, you’re a liar. You made it all up. What are you talking about? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:51.825)Ugh. Ingrid (12:59.339)Again, a whole lot happened, but not a whole lot happened. Even when I turned to social services as a child, they were like, is it that bad? Right? And it sort of seemed like the collective, yeah, the collective response was like, well, no, it’s not that bad. We’re not really going to intervene. There’s not much we can do. So my body learned along with the cultural conditioning of what trauma is that it wasn’t that bad. know, this is normal. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:07.908)Right, we’re questioned. Ingrid (13:27.039)And you’re not safe, essentially. If I’m a nervous system perspective, I learned, boy, I am not relationally safe. The only thing I can do to be relationally safe is to go along with your narrative to a certain degree, don’t push back, to swallow this deeper truth that never really got fully validated or metabolized. And ultimately what I now know is that kept me stuck for decades, right? It was like, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:54.438)Yeah. Ingrid (13:55.435)imprisoned in my own body in a way that’s essentially what unmetabolized trauma really is, is that you’re stuck, you’re stuck. So understanding complex trauma and understanding the Fawn response, like I said, after decades, I sat on so many therapist couches, I’ve been sober for decades, I’ve done so much inner work, it wasn’t like I wasn’t trying, I got three degrees in psychology, right? It was like I did all of this to try to overcome Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:17.882)Right. The wounded here. Yeah. Yes. Ingrid (14:21.237)Yes, this feeling of like, what’s wrong with me? I’m still broken. Why can’t I have a healthy relationship? Why can’t I really have this loving relationship with myself? And these were the lenses that allowed me to see myself differently, to access myself differently, and actually to finally heal. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:40.722)Yes, and there’s this whole amazing section in the book about that. But before we go in, Ingrid, and someone’s listening to this, can you explain a little bit about the difference between fawning and people pleasing? Some signs of like, hey, you know, these are some real signs of the fawning. And also, part three, it’s this complex question is, what kind of patterns might you see in relationship where you haven’t addressed fawning or what types of Ingrid (14:53.432)Yeah. Ingrid (15:05.966)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:09.074)people might you attract if you’re in that fawning trauma cycle. So signs, difference with people pleasing and relationships. Ingrid (15:13.751)Yeah, so great questions. Ingrid (15:18.383)So for me, I think both actually people pleasing and the language of codependency, these were our best attempts to name something that is real, right? With whatever information we had at the time. But. the problem that I can have with some of these terms is that they sort of place the problem as it were in an individual’s body as though it just originated out of thin air for no reason, as though it’s a problem that they possess that they need to fix and solve. And to me, the Fawn response, I see it as sort of the engine of these behaviors. It’s the why, right? That’s what has gone. missing this notion that we are relational beings, we are hardwired, we co-regulate, we cohabitate, we literally need one another. So to divorce this notion of needing one another and our dependency, our literal dependency on one another is really shaming and blaming. First of all, to the caregivers, it’s like we go here, here’s the emotional load, do all the heavy lifting. And then when they do it, we go, what’s wrong with you? Why can’t you take care of yourself? Right? There’s this crazy double bind. so fawning to me is the heartbeat of these behaviors that allowed me to go, that’s why I’m privileging. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:31.1)Yeah. Ingrid (16:44.917)external validation or your opinion of me or I’m wondering why you’re mad at me. It’s why I’m so hypervigilant because my entire sense of safety in the world was built on needing to prioritize what was happening outside my body in order to keep my body safe. I had to be divorced from my internal sense of safety and orient to your need first and then come back to me. go, my gosh, that makes perfect sense. And the second thing that Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:49.722)Yeah. Ingrid (17:14.209)I think the fawn response tends to that people pleasing and codependency have not historically is the context that I am not just a dysfunctional person. My body adapted, I think in a very genius way to a deeply dysfunctional environment or context. And again, it’s the piece where I go, my gosh, okay, now it makes sense that I was doing this, right? It’s not just because I love to… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:34.651)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:41.286)Yeah, Ingrid (17:42.893)I’m obsessed with control, right? It’s like, no, I was obsessed with safety. I was obsessed with the feeling that I could exist in the world. And now I understand why. So to me, that’s the sort of, it’s like, we know more now. These terms arose before we understood trauma at all. And they were also steeped in this sort of disease model, which I think we just know better now. Let’s do better. Let’s help people understand where these… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:44.859)Wait! Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:50.63)Yes. Ingrid (18:09.913)these behaviors came from. And so some of the common signs and symptoms then are if I can’t have a voice because it makes it worse, right? It puts me as more of a target and maybe you’re gonna come for me. Well, we’re conflict avoidant, right? So a lot of chronic fauners have kind of lost access to a healthy fight response, which is all these things that we’re told to just go and do, right? Set a healthy boundary. Well, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:20.347)Yeah. Ingrid (18:34.849)setting a boundary might mean that I’m really going to get steamrolled. Saying a no might mean, now you’re really going to come for me. And so the body learned time and time again, like, no, no, no, no, it’s safer not to push back, right? It’s safer. But ultimately, what happened for me and what happens for a lot of my clients is like the FON response is almost 10 steps out ahead of you, like a perpetual protector or a shield. And it’s, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:41.692)Right. Ingrid (19:01.769)acting, even environments that might be perfectly safe, but the body goes, I’m not going to risk it. This is my way to safety. This is how I show up in the world. We tend to be conflict avoidant. We tend to prioritize everyone else’s needs, our own. think even this idea where we started the podcast of like, your trauma matters, but mine doesn’t really. That’s also kind of a common sort of fawning response. It’s like, you’re entitled to have Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:08.166)Well, yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:20.7)Yes. Ingrid (19:31.533)your story and experience and you should have all the resources, but mine don’t really matter that much. What else? Yes. Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:37.083)Yeah. So gets swung down over again, like for decades it took you, I think in the book you said it was 30 years, you know, for you to really sort of unpack that. there’s just, feels at least, you know, in my experience with myself, it feels like there’s all these different energies wrapped in. It’s sort of like that shame as guilty, should I have been doing that? Like, should I have been doing something else? But then fear, I didn’t know what else to do. And then this. Ingrid (19:46.358)Ugh. Ingrid (19:51.214)Yeah. Ingrid (19:58.926)Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:09.02)hollowness in my throat or you can’t really express yourself. And, you know, it affects relationships for a long time, I think, until you can actually find center. Obviously, you when we we heal ourselves, we find that centeredness and compassion. Everything around us changes. But, you know, like you said, sometimes we don’t hear about this for a long time, or we don’t have tools for a while. So it does go on. It’s pervasive. Ingrid (20:11.119)Mmm, yep. Ingrid (20:29.624)Yeah. Ingrid (20:36.621)Well, look what the bind is, right? Because when you say center yourself to me, what that means is you start to grow a sense of internal safety, right? Which is that all my safety doesn’t reside outside of my body. But when your whole life has been built on this very foundation that your sense of safety resides outside of your own body, just telling someone to like center themselves, and it doesn’t make any sense. It’s like, what are you even talking about? Of course, logically, we go, well, I do love myself, right? Like, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:43.408)Yes. Ingrid (21:05.591)It’s not about these ideas that make sense. It’s about a felt sense. It’s a nervous system experience of, don’t care what you say and how you say it, my body is not safe in the world. And so we have to start from a place where we acknowledge someone’s lack of internal safety and go, yep, that’s where we’re starting. I’m not pretending like you have all this access, you’re just not using it. It’s you’ve never had the experience of really feeling autonomous, of feeling maybe like an adult, you know? This language that so many of us use, like you can see now with all this gray hair, I’m in my 50s, but half of the time I go, my God,

This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Juliana Lindsay Summary: In this episode, Kimberly and Dr. Julianna Lindsey explore the interconnectedness of emotional and physical health, emphasizing the importance of stability in relationships and the impact of lifestyle choices on overall well-being. They discuss cardiovascular health, the significance of dietary choices, the effects of alcohol, and the role of supplements like glutathione and NAD in promoting longevity. The dialogue highlights the need for self-awareness and critical thinking in navigating health trends and misinformation.   About Dr, Juliana Lindsay Dr. Julianna Lindsey is Board Certified in Internal Medicine with additional training and certifications in anti-aging and regenerative medicine, functional and integrative medicine, lifestyle medicine, bioidentical hormone optimization, and peptide therapy. In addition to her clinical work, she has spent the past fifteen years serving executive leadership roles at Fortune-level companies. During this time, she observed the dysfunction of our health care system on a large scale, an experience that contributed to her motivation in establishing her Radiant Longevity clinic in Southlake, Texas, where she dedicates her life to serving people through personalized care and attention. She is the author of Radiant Longevity: A Physician’s Protocol for Living Your Best Life.   Guest Resources: Website: www.radiantlongevity.com Book: Radiant Longevity: A Physician’s Protocol for Living Your Best Life.   Episode Sponsors: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY   GLOWING GREENS POWDER OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Episode Chapters 00:00 The Importance of Connection and Stability05:02 Understanding Cardiovascular Health and Screening10:05 Dietary Choices and Their Impact on Health14:54 The Role of Alcohol in Health and Wellness19:41 Exploring Supplements: Glutathione and NAD24:57 Navigating Health Trends and Misinformation SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo   Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.23)Hi, Juliana. I was going to say Dr. Lindsay, but I love in your book how you say to call you Juliana. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Calling in from Dallas, I believe. Julianna Lindsey (00:13.333)Yes, Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:15.502)Love technology. You are asking me where I’m calling in from, which is currently California. And I do travel a lot between Hawaii and here. yeah, it’s just so great that we can have these conversations and feel that connection no matter where we are. Also books, you know, we’re both authors that we can really connect with people on the subject matter beyond your realm of patients in Dallas, you can share your ideas in this form, which is really exciting, I think. Julianna Lindsey (00:51.347)It is wonderful and connection is so important. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:54.774)You know, I really liked how you talked about such a variety of subject matters in your new book, Radiant Longevity, a Physician’s Protocol for Living Your Best Life. And I wrote a couple notes of some of the things that really stood out to me. And talking about connection, there’s a whole section in the book where you talk about a stable home life. And I really love that because we hear a lot about social connections and community. And of course, that was really highlighted a lot, especially since COVID, when there was so much isolation. But sometimes I don’t think we talk enough about stability. And that’s true if someone’s married, if they have kids, or a lot of our listeners may be single. But this idea of stability and having less drama in our lives and more nervous system regulation. Can you talk a little bit about why you called that out is so important in your book. Julianna Lindsey (01:54.239)not sure that there’s anything more important to our quality of life than having stability in our relationships. And you don’t have to have 50 friends. If you have one person that you know you can count on when the chips are down. And for me, I’m very fortunate to have a few. And my main person is my husband, but also my children. We have a… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:03.041)and Julianna Lindsey (02:23.115)drama free life. I just don’t have time or space for drama in my life. I don’t see any benefit to it and I try to avoid it like the plague. don’t and it is a plague and I hate it to see people online get wrapped up and trying to get reactions from people and you can just you can opt to just stay out of all that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:34.424)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:47.394)Right. Julianna Lindsey (02:52.277)But you do need people in your life that you can absolutely count on. And I want to be that person for other people as well. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:01.708)Yeah. Well, I think it’s important to talk about that because when we talk about stress and we talk about cortisol levels and, I mean, there’s so many things in daily life that we can do. Like you said, we can create a lifestyle. Maybe some of us grew up and you talk about trauma in the book as well, but maybe we grew up in a home environment that did have a lot of drama or maybe we can start to be aware in our life now. I know for me, Juliana, I can get really triggered by news. Like don’t really, I don’t watch the news, you know, I’ll read selectively, but also what’s coming into our feed. Like you said, there’s a lot of negativity online. So there’s a lot of things that we can do to create that stability. If we just start to be aware relationships, you know, what’s coming in, like our total environment. And that’s really important. You say stability, I also say more calmness, more peace. And that has an obvious, you know, effect. on our physical health, our mental well-being, emotional well-being, spiritual well-being, and so on. Julianna Lindsey (04:05.173)And of course we can’t separate any of that. We can’t separate our emotional wellbeing from our physical wellbeing. It’s all so integrated. And we have be very intentional about the environment that we create around us and the events that we allow to go on in our atmosphere. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:10.584)Yeah, it’s That’s right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:23.842)That’s right. And so if someone is listening to this and they say, wow, you know, there are, there is a lot of drama in my friendships or in my relationship. It’s something to be aware of and something that, you know, we have to look within ourselves and there’s so many different tools and, you know, resources available that it doesn’t have to stay like that. We can, you know, move in transition and it’s an important marker of health and wellbeing stability. Julianna Lindsey (04:51.059)Indeed, and just the ability to an open conversation, an open, authentic conversation with people is an art. Sometimes crucial conversations need to occur, right? People, relationships are not problem free. And if you hit a bump in the road, it doesn’t have to mean there’s drama. know, people should be able to have open, honest, authentic relationships with one another without there being drama involved and just, you know, state the problem and figure out together collaboratively how you want to solve the problem. If it’s a relationship worth having. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:17.006)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:34.123)Yes. Julianna Lindsey (05:34.281)that it’s worth it’s worth an open conversation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:38.53)Yeah, it’s true and honesty and coming from the heart. Julianna Lindsey (05:42.963)Yes. And I think you can feel your intention, right? If your intentions are good, if you want the best for that other person, if you want the best for your relationship, people know that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:56.694)Yes, that’s right. Well, and then only a few pages prior, and this is another note I had in completely switching gears, which again, I really love a holistic approach. And even a few pages earlier, you were talking about coronary artery calcium scan, the CAES, which my husband had done. And so again, there’s relationships, there’s the things that we can’t see with our physical eyes. And then, okay, there’s plaque. Julianna Lindsey (06:13.493)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:23.97)There’s hardened, there’s calcified plaque. There’s the statistics that we know about cardiovascular incidences. We know that a lot of women and men, all different types of people have heart disease. Now, can you talk a little bit about this scan and this test? Because I remember talking to my husband about this a few months ago and it seems somewhat… recent, it seems that not everybody knows about this. It feels like it could prevent a lot of cardiovascular incidences. I’m not sure if it’s always covered by insurance, but can you just give us more information about this test? Julianna Lindsey (07:02.261)love that you bring up that topic because cardiovascular disease is the number one killer of men and it is the number one killer of women. We hear lot about breast cancer and certainly we want to be aware of our breast cancer risk and keep up on those screenings and breast health but the statistically most likely event to lead to death is cardiovascular disease in women. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:10.189)Wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:30.189)Mmm. Julianna Lindsey (07:31.681)And it has historically been underdiagnosed and undertreated in a preventative fashion in women. So women are less likely to get put on cholesterol-lowering medications. They’re less likely to get put on blood pressure-lowering medications. The moment a man’s testosterone drops below 800, somebody wants to start giving him pellets. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:57.795)Right. Julianna Lindsey (07:58.431)Women are allowed to go through periods of estrogen deprivation in perimenopause and menopause, which is so harmful to our cardiovascular health. And we need to raise awareness that that period of estrogen deprivation is when our disease risk of cardiovascular disease rises to equal that of men’s. So I very much try to avoid, want to avoid, and usually can periods of estrogen deprivation from my patients. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:06.382)Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:27.896)So you mean with hormone replacement. Julianna Lindsey (08:28.577)Yes, identical hormone optimization. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:32.94)And then when would you recommend someone start taking this? Is it CACS you would say test? Yes. Julianna Lindsey (08:39.669)The coronary artery calcium score. So I don’t use the coronary artery calcium scoring anymore. So I use a CT angiogram. We specifically opt for the, it’s a branded name, the CLEERLY scan, C-L-E-E-R-L-Y. The CLEERLY scan is a CT angiogram. It is a CT scan, so there is some ionizing radiation involved, but it’s a low amount. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:48.494)Julianna Lindsey (09:09.511)The that scan is superior to the coronary artery calcium score because they use AI algorithms and special cameras to detect both soft plaque and calcified plaque. 30 % of heart attacks occur in people with a calcium score of zero. The calcium score is paid for by insurance. The the CLEARLY scan is typically not paid for by insurance so that that is a barrier, it is absolutely the better test because soft plaque is kind of what gets us in trouble. That’s where the heart attacks happen, but it’s also, we see that as reversible, right? I try to see the glass is always half full. So I look at soft plaque as being a reversible condition and then with lipid lowering and other lifestyle measures, then we can help mitigate and lower people’s risk of developing heart disease. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:11.278)Well, thank you for clarifying that, Juliana. So around when would we consider getting this test and how often should you get this sort of test? And of course, you know, anyone listening to this or a loved one that, hmm, you you might want to inform about this because again, it doesn’t seem like a lot of the general masses know that these are available. Julianna Lindsey (10:35.673)That’s a great question. When to start screening? So we base our screening age on the risk factor of the patient in front of us. So if someone has a high LP little a, that’s a blood marker that you inherit from one of your parents. If you have a high LP little a, which everyone should get checked, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:39.297)Yes. Julianna Lindsey (11:02.579)then we absolutely begin screening much sooner than in someone who doesn’t have this high LP little a. LP little a is an independent risk factor for the development of cardiovascular disease. So if you have high LP little a, you are far more likely to have plaque in your arteries, making you more likely to have a heart attack or stroke or peripheral cardiovascular disease. So in the event that, let’s say a woman has Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:09.728)Okay. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:25.07)Mm. Julianna Lindsey (11:31.883)High LP little a I want to get her screened before the age of 50 I also want to get a man screen before the age of 50 with high LP little a if someone has had a history of prolonged like a familial high cholesterol condition then then we may start in early 40s also, so and Of course the family history is important in making these decisions as well, but Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:53.165)Mmm. Julianna Lindsey (12:01.087)You can’t rely solely on family history. We like to add all these variables together and really risk stratify people. And it’s better to get screened earlier than later. We use that screening test to help us determine how aggressive we need to be in lipid lowering. you commonly hear stories from ladies that Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:04.16)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:23.574)Right. Julianna Lindsey (12:30.709)people didn’t want to put them on lipid lowering drugs because this, that, or the other. It’s usually there. Somebody said their cholesterol wasn’t that high because they’re premenopausal or, know, women can, women form plaque prior to menopause under the right conditions. There are also women and men who have very high cholesterol levels. They are very rare who Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:50.606)Mm. Julianna Lindsey (13:00.309)we find don’t have any plaque on their clearly scan. Now, if they don’t have plaque on their clearly scan, then we can often avoid pharmacologic therapy to lower their cholesterol. But those people are rare individuals. I would say maybe one in 500 people with high cholesterol will not be forming plaque. So they are very much the exception. not the rule. And I’m afraid that lot of physicians without having these test results assume that that is a way more common condition than it actually is. People need to get screened and risk stratified. If you’re not forming plaque, fantastic. But if you’re already forming plaque in your arteries, we can see the arteries around the heart with the CLEARLY scan. We cannot see the arteries in the brain. We don’t have good visual vision capability, but we absolutely use those heart arteries and the condition of those arteries as a surrogate marker for what’s going on in your brain. Our brain needs blood flow. Cognitive decline is an epidemic and it is a rising epidemic. We are very cognizant about our patients’ cognitive health. Just as much. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:00.0)it. Julianna Lindsey (14:27.321)as we are about their cardiovascular health because they are highly intertwined. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:33.228)Yes, thank you for explaining that. And then in another section, interrelated section of the book, where you talk about diet, and I love how you lead off with talking, you know, very similar dietary philosophy that we have here at Salona and Beauty Detox, lots of green vegetables, lots of nuts. And also a good friend of mine who’s been on this podcast many times, Dan Buettner, who discovered the blue zones, which you referenced in your book. you know, just having this Julianna Lindsey (14:57.846)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:00.046)whole food based diet and active lifestyle and so on. But I bring this up on the heels of us talking about the calcium scans because it gets really confusing for people, Juliana, as you know, where, you know, for a while it was sort of the general consensus about avoiding eating a lot of red meat. And then there’s sort of different dialogues being put out, especially in social media about, know, cholesterol isn’t really bad. And then there’s the rise of certain diets like the carnivore diet. lots of meat. And then I’ve heard people have even written into me saying, you know, I tried some of these diets and my plaque did go up, even though a lot of people that are pushing these very high meat diets are saying, well, no, it’s not actually going to raise your cholesterol. It just gets very confusing for people when there’s so many people talking about different ways of eating, you know. I don’t know, it sort of blows my mind. And then there’s these, again, these out of just certain studies, which can be extrapolated, they’re studying human populations, like the blue zones and seeing how a lot of these cultures are getting enough protein, but they’re also eating a large 90 % and over plant based. So can you speak a little bit in your work as a physician and your monitoring all these different patients and seeing what’s going on with plaque and just that relationship with eating a high red meat? animal protein diet in relation to what we’re talking about here. Julianna Lindsey (16:32.595)I can tell you with certainty that most people who are eating a high fat diet are going to have higher cholesterol levels. Now people’s bodies respond differently. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:42.978)Thank you. Yeah. Yes. But it sounds obvious and I’m sorry to bring it up this way, but it’s not when you’re listening to all these different dialogues, doctor. It sort of gets sort of bananas out there. Julianna Lindsey (16:59.285)Well, I would advise people to, if they hear something on social media, take that to your actual physician with hopefully with whom you have a relationship and then ask him or her questions about that. And please let it, first of all, let it pass the filter of common sense. Has, has humankind evolved eating solely meat? It’s It doesn’t pass the common sense filter to me. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:31.098)It doesn’t pass the common sense, but unfortunately, doctor, there are doctors like these carnivore MDs out there that are doctors that are also telling people some of these ways of eating, which I think can potentially cause a lot of harm and can certainly confuse a lot of people. So we’re moving away from fiber and anti-inflammatory antioxidant rich foods. And now there just becomes this huge focus on protein, protein, protein more and more. animal foods. Julianna Lindsey (18:02.645)Well, it’s the wrong direction. And if you look at the human microbiome, and we are in our infancy in knowing the power of our microbiome, but we do know that 70 % of our immune system lies in the lining of our gut. Those microorganisms that are in the lining of our gut control so much of what happens in our body. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:13.248)Yes. Julianna Lindsey (18:26.651)and those to have a healthy microbiome, you need those soluble and insoluble fibers that you can only get from non-meat sources. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:38.71)Yeah. And you were talking about, you know, opening up pathways to the brain, to the heart. There’s a clogging effect. Like you said, common sense that happens when we’re eating really dense, fatty, just, I can’t say it in words, but dense foods. Now, and then when we’re focusing on eating so much of those foods and filling our plate with that, then obviously there’s going to be less room for the fiber rich. Julianna Lindsey (18:45.301)Yes. Julianna Lindsey (18:56.682)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:06.346)foods, it just becomes less of a focus, unfortunately, in a lot of these diets. Julianna Lindsey (19:12.255)And if people have a, if they have doubt about that, I would just challenge them to go get your lipid profile checked regularly. Like we check our patients lipid profiles every 90 days because people will go on, you know, they’ll go off on tangents and I can, I can generally tell when they’ve gone off on a tangent and, and they’re, they’re eating it just like red meat every single day. I’m not against red meat. I eat meat myself. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:23.842)Wow. Julianna Lindsey (19:42.081)I also eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. So balance in all things. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:47.444)Yes. Yeah, I can say, I can share and I’ve talked about a little bit on here that actually was a personal experience with my husband. He eats meat, me and the kids are plant based, but he went on a full carnivore diet. And was a day where he was eating his chopped raw liver. And my older son looked at it he said, mama, would you eat papa’s food for a million dollars? And I said, no, he’s like two million. We were trying to come up with a number, but he does get regular blood work and he saw the actual, you know, the impact in his blood work. And I’m happy to say he’s gone back to eating a lot of fiber again. because yeah, to your point when you could measure and you can actually see that difference, instead of just theoretically or just because you want to look the way someone looks on social media and you think it’s because you need more and more and more. of protein and to build yourself up. Julianna Lindsey (20:47.553)Also, we have no idea what those people on social media who look like they look, what they’re doing. You know, we don’t really know what they’re eating. We don’t know what kind of hormones they’re putting in their body. They could be doing any number of unhealthy things. And I can tell you that I see a lot of 50-year-old men walking around, you know, all puffed up, who look horribly unhealthy. I know that they… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:02.091)Right. Julianna Lindsey (21:16.971)They probably perceive themselves as being healthy, but you can spot somebody who’s on too much testosterone and growth hormone, and it is a bad situation for their health. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:28.106)Right. I imagine long-term, especially taking growth hormone. Julianna Lindsey (21:32.255)Well, short and long term. I mean, those people tend to die early. Think about like Rich Piana, for instance. He was a internet craze. And then there’s like the liver king. know, all these people doing these crazy things. And it turns out, I guess the liver king wasn’t actually doing what he said he was doing. And then of course, Rich Piana died when he was relatively young. So. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:44.27)Right. Julianna Lindsey (21:58.933)I don’t think we need to be taking advice from people like that. And you have to always question people’s ulterior motives. What kind of secondary gain are they on social media to get? So the way to get likes and reactions and conversations on social media is to be extreme. The way to live a balanced, healthy life is to avoid extremes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:24.878)Right, centered. And you mentioned that in your protocols overall for eating is to eat less, right? Because we are able to digest more, our bodies utilize more nutrients when we’re not constantly overloading. And I know, know, Dr. you as well as many physicians, there’s a section where you did talk about semi-glutides and… Julianna Lindsey (22:26.815)Yes. Julianna Lindsey (22:34.582)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:51.246)and know, Zempik and you know, the crazes out there. And on one hand, people are eating less and they are dropping weight. I wonder, and I don’t know the answer and I haven’t taken, you know, I’m not a physician that’s taking a super deep dive on this, but I wonder doctor about long-term though. And people haven’t learned to eat healthy when they’re taking these drugs, or maybe they’re, you when they get off and then they still have to learn to eat healthy. What do you think about these other aspects? And I know primarily, you know, you’re seeing numbers improve, you’re seeing people eat a lot less. We know obesity is a killer, but long-term effects and then potentia