Elevate Your Relationships through Radical Listening with Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh [Episode #986]

This Week’s Episode:

In this heartfelt conversation, Kimberly interviews mother-daughter duo Suzy and Halle Hopkins, co-authors of ‘What to Do When You Get Dumped.’ They discuss the inspiration behind their book, which addresses the emotional turmoil of heartbreak and the journey of healing. Suzy shares her personal experience of being unexpectedly left by her husband after 30 years of marriage, while Halle reflects on her own experiences with heartbreak. The conversation delves into the importance of allowing oneself to grieve, the power of illustrations in storytelling, and the significance of finding faith and understanding in the healing process. In this conversation, Hallie and her mother Suzy discuss the themes of healing, personal growth, and the importance of sharing one’s story. They explore the purpose behind Hallie’s book, which aims to provide encouragement and guidance for those navigating heartbreak. The discussion delves into the universal themes found in personal experiences, the journey of self-love, and the significance of support from unexpected sources. They also touch on generational perspectives on mental health and the importance of authenticity in relationships.

About Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh

Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener is a researcher, author, and well-known executive coach. His studies have taken him to such far-flung places as Greenland, India, Kenya, and Israel where he has researched culture as it relates to wellbeing. In addition to happiness, he has researched strengths, hospitality, friendship, and leadership. Robert has authored more than 75 peer-reviewed academic articles and chapters and has a citation count of more than 27 thousand. Dr. Biswas-Diener has authored many books, including Positive Provocation (2023), the New York Times Best Seller, The Upside of Your Dark Side (2014), and the 2007 PROSE Award winner, Happiness.

As a consultant and trainer, Robert has presented in 30 nations. He has presented keynotes and workshops to Lululemon, Deloitte, Humana, Standard Chartered Bank, Australia Department of Defense, Queensland Police, Ruby Receptionists, AARP, Cellebrite, Financial Planners Association, Australian Council for Educational Leaders, Japanese Psychological Association, Kaiser Permanente, and the World Bank, among others.

In 2024, Thinkers50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world.

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Guest Resources

Book: RADICAL LISTENING: The Art of True Connection

Website: robertdiener.com

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Radical Listening
02:12 The Importance of Listening in Diverse Cultures
05:05 The Birth of Radical Listening
07:45 Listening vs. Speaking: The Balance of Communication
10:23 Intentional Listening: The Key to Connection
14:27 Overcoming Barriers to Presence in Listening
17:18 Navigating Conversations: Setting Boundaries
19:19 The Dangers of Half Listening
23:19 Asking Probing Questions for Deeper Connection
28:16 Understanding Underlying Issues in Communication
30:20 Levels of Acknowledgement
32:22 Building Connections Through Radical Listening
34:32 The Challenge of Acceptance
36:46 Navigating Trauma and Listening
38:27 The Importance of Intention in Listening
40:41 Self-Care for Effective Listening
42:58 Understanding Listening Skills
43:44 The Ripple Effect of Radical Listening
47:40 Starting Your Journey in Radical Listening
51:20 Listening as an Act of Love

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.76)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for our very special conversation today. We have both co-authors on the show today for the wonderful new book, which I love, called Radical Listening, The Art of True Connection, which provides tools for creating stronger, more resilient relationships and navigating conflicts with empathy and mutual respect. This subject matter is something that the world really needs.

So our first co-author is Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener, and he is a researcher, an author, an executive coach. He has presented in over 30 nations. And in 2024, Thinker 50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world. Thank you, Robert, for being here.

Robert Biswas-Diener (00:51.598)
Thank you so much for having me.

Kimberly Snyder (00:53.846)
And we are so blessed to have our second co-author here, Professor Christian von Neuwerberg, PhD. He’s a leading academic and executive coach as well with an international reputation. He has taught at, we’ll talk about this, universities in Ireland, in Australia. I love the international combination of both of you. He’s presented all around the world as well, from the US to the United Kingdom, Europe, New Zealand.

and the Middle East. Interesting. He’s also passionate about motorcycling. You would get along with my husband, Christian, writing and coaching. So welcome both of you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Christian (01:37.929)
Thank you so much. We’re really excited to be here and thanks so much for the work that you do Kim.

Kimberly Snyder (01:43.334)
thank you. So radical listening. What an amazing concept in a world where it seems like everybody’s focused on speaking and it seems that so much can fall through the cracks. Before we get into some of the concepts in your book, maybe you can share a little bit about why this subject matter is important to both of you. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of you have such international credentials.

part of your bio. I imagine that plays a part in listening when you’re going around the world in very different cultures. Yeah, so let’s start there.

Christian (02:20.841)
Thank you so much, Kimberly. Yeah, it’s so nice of you to make that connection. You know, one of the reasons we wrote the book was exactly what you said. We felt that talking about listening is more important now than it ever has been. But if I think back to where did I become interested in this? Well, you know, I have kind of an international background. My mother was Japanese. My father was Belgian.

I was born and brought up in Beirut, Lebanon. And I think one of the things that that really helped me with was I had this perspective that there’s lots of different ways of seeing anything. When my mom was bringing me up, she was really highlighting the importance of being respectful. In fact, being quiet, being invisible was kind of one of her messages. From the Western perspective of my father,

Kimberly Snyder (02:53.314)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (03:15.318)
Hmm.

Christian (03:20.145)
It was more like go and get stuff, know, go, need to be put yourself out there. And I was very lucky to have an American education. went to an American community school. went to an American university. So I think I’ve always had that curiosity about, there’s so many different ways to see things. But the other side of it is I’ve always been seen as the other wherever I am because of my mixed background.

I’m always not from that place. And if you’re not from that place, you’ve kind of got to be pretty alert. So I think part of my growing up was being highly alert, noticing things, listening. And I guess my question has always been, how can I fit in here? And in order to fit in, I have to listen very carefully to what’s going on around me. So thanks for noticing that, Kimberly. It’s so…

I feel seen already.

Kimberly Snyder (04:20.366)
Well, thank you so much for sharing that Christian. And I really relate to that because my mom comes from the Philippines and I grew up in a very completely actually all white community in Connecticut. So I was always the exotic one, the other one. And there was a lot of characteristics and things that came from that experience. And one of them I would also say is being really highly attuned.

to what’s going on, maybe even hypervigilant because I didn’t want to stand out. You don’t want to stand out when you’re five and four years old. So I really relate to that. Thank you so much. And Robert, and also can you guys share how you know each other too?

Robert Biswas-Diener (05:04.54)
Yeah, that’s actually a little bit what I wanted to talk about, which is, Christian and I have long been in each other’s orbits because we are in the same profession. We both are largely involved with positive psychology research. So our paths would cross at conferences, but our friendship and ability to collaborate really blossomed during sort of the height.

or the lowest point, depending how you look at it, of the pandemic. So like many people, March 2020 was a pretty rough time for us. A lot of our work was drying up. There was a lot of uncertainty at that time. And we decided that we would just connect via Zoom and we would just have these sort of one and two hour free flowing conversations. And yeah, just the two of us.

Kimberly Snyder (05:36.11)
Kimberly Snyder (05:57.154)
Just the two of you. Wow, two hours, I love it.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:02.52)
Yeah, and so we would just, know, like once a week, twice a week, we would just chat about whatever things we agreed on, things we didn’t agree on. You know, we had lots of, you know, kind of little intellectual arguments, lots of just sharing stories, lots of just, just free ranging conversation. And it was out of that, that the book Radical Listening was born. I think normally an author is sort of pregnant with an idea, you know, this is my

my research or this is what I’ve done for the last 20 years so I want to write about it. And I was not naturally a listener, I’m naturally a speaker, but it was the process of interacting with Christian and seeing how respectful he was, even in approaching disagreement and how our different styles that I’m a certain type of listener, I would say kind of a very engaged, jump in quick kind of listener and he’s kind of that,

Kimberly Snyder (06:46.189)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:59.642)
why it give you your full turn to talk listener. And just watching those two dynamics interact, I was like, think we might have something to say about this. think maybe we should be writing about this. And Christian kind of simultaneously had the idea and the book was born.

Kimberly Snyder (07:16.812)
Wow. So I love it when something comes so naturally and organically just births out of this true need that you both felt. And I see so many books nowadays around creating boundaries and like, have to express this. There’s a lot, you know, especially for women, like being clear, like boundaries. Can you share how listening on the other end of it would

radically, I mean to your title and also how you speak about here some of these benefits creating stronger relationships, being able to navigate conflicts, how the listening part is really needed and beneficial.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:03.484)
It’s a great question. I do think that assertiveness and boundaries are important. One of my worries is that this just becomes more labor for women if women then have to take on all the responsibility for setting boundaries and making sure they’re protected in terms of time and other things. One of the great things about listening is that it has relatively little cost.

It’s pretty easy to do, relatively little energy costs, mental costs, emotional costs. And one of the points that we make that I think makes our approach to listening a little different is that listening is motivated. It’s easy just to think about listening as if you’re just taking in sounds from the air and your job is to understand them.

Kimberly Snyder (08:46.849)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:54.938)
Like you’re just a giant radar dish. Like I’m just taking it in. And then my principal job is, I understand what you’re saying? That’s sort of the traditional active listening model. And that’s not wrong. I mean, there’s some good things to be gotten from that. But we think that listening is motivated and that you’re listening to accomplish something in a conversation. So in one conversation, you might want to listen in order to validate your friend.

Kimberly Snyder (08:57.069)
Yes.

Robert Biswas-Diener (09:22.2)
And in that mode, that validation mode of listening, you’re going to pay attention to certain types of things. You’re going to construe your role as listener in a certain way. And that’s very different than if you’re listening to mount a counter argument. You’re going to listen in a very different way for that. Or if you’re listening to solve a problem, you’re actually going to be listening for an entirely different set of information. So just kind of understanding what your mode is, I think can be empowering to people.

because it allows you to be more effective conversational.

Kimberly Snyder (09:58.102)
I like how you talk about, both of you write in the book about the intention to listen because sometimes our friends want to share their, or husband or spouse wants to share their suffering or what they’re going through. And if you’re just kind of like, uh-huh, and you’re doing something while you’re like listening or chiming in, you don’t get that intention across. It can feel very disconnected.

Christian (10:23.827)
You’re right, Kimberly. And by the way, you’re doing radical listening right now with us because as Robert was speaking, you were interjecting. There were little noises you made and you made tiny words. And that for us is an example of radical listening, right? So the typical active listening is you probably just go completely quiet.

And I would say active listening is mostly about looking like you’re listening. Whereas radical listening is being genuinely interested. And that enthusiasm comes up in laughter. I mean, you’ve been laughing, you’ve been really engaged with what we’re saying. So the interesting thing with radical listening is that it does apply in professional contexts, but also very much in personal contexts.

And I know this podcast is called Feel Good. And what we’re arguing is that in addition to simply understanding somebody, and we often think, yeah, I listen in order to understand, I listen in order to communicate. But we’re saying that every listening opportunity is an opportunity to build connection with the person you’re listening to. And how does that happen? Well, one of the ways it happens is when we match.

As listeners, we match what’s needed by the person we’re listening to. And for example, you were talking about like in a, in when we’re with friends, you know, the intention is I would like to listen to this person in a way that makes them feel seen, valued and heard. And if that’s my intention, then picking up what’s wanted by them. So sometimes a friend of mine might come along and say,

You know, I’ve had a really bad day in the office. It’s been a terrible day. And picking up whether do they want to be acknowledged for that? Is that all they want? Or are they actually looking for a solution? So what we argue, Kimberly, is that the matching is important. If I pick up what my, person I’m listening to wants, and I provide that, which is just acknowledgement, then there’s connection and the person feels good.

Christian (12:48.361)
But if we accidentally mismatch it, and instead of just listening, I’m jumping in with solutions because I think what they want is a solution, or I assume that they don’t want to be feeling down. And I’m like, come on, chin up, you’re gonna be great. In fact, the irony is, although my intention is to be helpful, because I haven’t really paid attention to what it is they want, and I haven’t been intentional.

about matching my listening to what they want, can ironically get in the way of that connection.

Kimberly Snyder (13:24.982)
Right. Well, it sounds like when I was reading the book, radical listening involves a level of being present, right? Because if we’re not really here, which is an issue for many people today, they’re half listening, they may be scrolling on their phone or they’re cooking dinner or doing whatever they’re doing. But this idea of being intentional and intuitive is really, you know,

You have to be there. So what would you say to someone listening to this that says, well, you know, I struggled to be present or I would love to share this book with my spouse, not our husband, not just, you know, stereotyping men, but sometimes there is that my husband does this as well, that jumping into, well, you should do this and this. And to your point, Christian, I don’t, didn’t want you to tell me what to do. I just wanted to share this challenge I had today.

So what do we do if someone’s already struggling to be present and improve their listening skills?

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:27.79)
Yeah, so there’s a few things in what you just said. One is if the speaker can make their intention clear, just articulate it, I just want to be heard. just, I don’t need a solution or please give me a solution. Then that can help the conversation align because it suggests a role for the listener. So that’s helpful right up front.

Kimberly Snyder (14:42.178)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:54.714)
And I think people can be, for the lack of a better word, trained to do that or train themselves to do that. So you’re just walking in saying, look, I just want to vent for five minutes. And I think that’s going to do it for me. not looking for a solution. The other thing is really to recognize, and I think first within ourselves, some of those common obstacles, those distractions to being present.

And the easiest one are sort of those external distractions. Your phone is calling your attention, the kids are pulling at you, the dog needs out, whatever the external environment provides. But there’s loads of internal ones as well. And I’ll just give a quick example of it. We call it time poverty. But I think of it as the sort of like the walk with me effect. So you’ve probably at some time in your life been with someone who was like,

Christian (15:41.961)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (15:46.076)
Okay, I’d love to listen to you, Kimberly. I’ve got five minutes. I got another appointment. Walk with me. And you’re supposed to walk with them to their next appointment and tell you whatever you need to tell them en route. And that’s already a lack of presence because they’re eventually communicating to you. I’m already thinking about what’s coming next. You have divided attention at best. You’re not my priority. I’m trying to multitask. And an alternative to that would be

Kimberly Snyder (16:00.949)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:15.63)
you can have four minutes of my undivided attention. I’ll stop here, I’ll turn to you, lay it on me. You are my priority. And then I’m gonna go to something else. And if it’s gonna take more than four minutes, we should probably not do it now. And we should probably find a time that gives it the time that it deserves.

Kimberly Snyder (16:35.214)
Well, let me ask you guys a question. We have these community Zooms. Sometimes there’s hundreds of people, 500 people. And at the end, I’ll say, does anyone, you can raise your hand. Does anyone want to ask a question or speak or share? Please keep it brief. Right? So I say that, but then people come on and they’re telling these heartfelt stories. And sometimes it just goes on and on. So what if this is your friend or this situation?

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:38.236)
you

Kimberly Snyder (17:03.874)
And you’ve already set that boundary. can actively, radically listen, but then people don’t follow that. How can you, you know, be compassionate, but actually, you know, hold to the boundaries you want? Yeah.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:18.684)
Yeah, think there’s a few things you can do. And I’m sure we’ll talk about this several times, but interrupting is one of them. And interrupting, I know when I say that word, it just sounds rude. But if you want to call it interjecting, or you want to call it jumping in, there are many times conversationally where jumping in is actually very beneficial to both parties.

Kimberly Snyder (17:36.127)
It does.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:47.694)
And many times that it’s not even considered rude. So anytime you’re speaking simultaneously, that’s an interruption. So if I’m speaking and you say, mm-hmm, that’s an interruption. It’s just a very small one. So we don’t think it’s that rude. So sometimes when your friend is going on and on and telling, if you jump in and you just say, my gosh, that’s so awful.

that sort of brings them to a halt, but they don’t consider that all that rude because you’re acknowledging them when you do it. Or the same thing, you can interrupt with a question that sort of steers the conversation a little bit. Like, my gosh, Kimberly, you mind if I jump in right there? You just said something so important. I wonder what you take away from that. And those…

Kimberly Snyder (18:40.854)
Mmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:42.588)
kinds of interjections are typically not even recognized as an interruption even though they technically are.

Christian (18:50.271)
Kimberly, can I jump in interject here because you said a little phrase earlier that really kind of highlights something I want to share with your listeners, which is this idea of half listening. You said sometimes you’re kind of half listening. And, you know, for me, the ideal is listening to someone is giving them your full attention for a certain amount of time. Then after that comes not listening at all.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:52.038)
Thanks.

Kimberly Snyder (19:07.565)
Right.

Christian (19:19.997)
And I would say the worst is half listening. And what I mean by that is half listening is really confusing for the person because it’s almost like there’s been an offer made of listening, but you’re not actually listening. So it’s very confusing. And I want to give a real example. And, you know, there was a time in my life when I was actually running courses on active listening. So I’d be delivering courses about active listening. And there was one day, it was a long day.

Kimberly Snyder (19:23.47)
Mm.

Christian (19:50.655)
I come home after a long day, I’m tired. I should have probably gone for a little walk in the park or something, but no, I went straight home because I’m tired. go in, I’ve still got like 200 emails and I need to get back early tomorrow. My son just pops in straight after me, like 10 minutes after me. And I half listened to Kimberly because I said to him, I think he was like 10 years old. And I said, Hey, how was your day at school? And.

Kimberly Snyder (20:09.56)
No.

Christian (20:20.231)
You see the half listening, because I’m not really intending to listen, but I just said that my mind is elsewhere. I’m already onto, I need to get onto my emails. Otherwise I’ll never get through all of this. And then he said, well, actually I fell down. I cut my knee and whatever in sports. And I said, good. I’m glad you had a good day on. And this actually happened. And I had to take a minute, Kimberly, because I thought, wait a minute.

Kimberly Snyder (20:40.718)
Christian (20:48.287)
I’m working with professionals around listening. And I thought, here’s the most important person in my life, literally. And I’m not doing it. I’m not doing it. And I did make a promise then. And this is something for everyone, I think, is that our idea of radical listening, it might be radical, but it’s also simple. And the idea is to use listening as a way of showing people that you value and appreciate.

Kimberly Snyder (20:57.665)
Hmm

Kimberly Snyder (21:17.879)
Yes.

Christian (21:17.981)
and just thinking about all the different ways we can do that. And like Robert mentioned, that that’s how we started having these conversations. But I’ll give you an example of how Robert is a great listener. We’d get onto a Zoom call, right? So it’s a Zoom call. And he’d say, right at the beginning, he’d say, let me just get my cat either out of the room or in the room. He’d take time to turn off his mobile phone. But you know what that was saying to me?

is I’m getting rid of all these distractions because what you have to say is important. So I think we can all think about what are the messages we’re giving to people. And the moment I say, look, I haven’t really got time for this or, you know, I’m sending this email, talk to me while I’m sending it, my message is actually, I don’t have time for you. You’re not that valuable. So anything we can do. you know, questions is one of our skills, Kimberly.

Kimberly Snyder (21:51.277)
Mm.

Christian (22:14.649)
So you know that trip home from school. don’t know if some of your listeners will know what I’m talking about, especially if you have a teenager and you’re like, how was school? It’s like, if you get a grant out of them, you’re loving it, right? But maybe ask a different question. You know, like, what was the best part of school today? What was the thing you most enjoyed? So maybe change the question so that it’s more engaging.

and maybe also be okay with silence because sometimes we get frustrated and we keep asking, why don’t you talk to me? Why aren’t you saying anything? So just that being comfortable with them and creating the space which is, look, I’m here to listen to you. And if you want to share something with me, I’m gonna be sitting here quietly. And if you’re not ready yet, that’s okay. So just creating the space for, this is space for you to share something with me.

Kimberly Snyder (22:50.478)
What?

Kimberly S

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Week’s Episode Special Guest: Alyssa Trask Campbell Summary: In this episode, Kimberly and Alyssa Black Campbell discuss her journey as a parenting expert and author, focusing on the emotional landscape of parenting. She emphasizes the importance of understanding emotions, connection, and the needs behind children’s behaviors. The discussion covers various topics including self-regulation, co-regulation, the significance of creating safe spaces for communication, and navigating challenges like lying and bullying. Alyssa shares insights from her personal experiences and highlights the role of neuroscience in understanding children’s emotional needs. About Alyssa Blask Campbell Alyssa Blask Campbell is CEO of Seed & Sew, a platform that offers consultations and courses on emotional intelligence, as well as creating a modern parenting village. She has a master’s degree in early childhood education and is a leading expert in emotional development and travels the globe speaking on the topic. Her first book, Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, published in October 2023 from HarperCollins. Follow @seed.and.sew. Guest Resources: Website: Seed & Sew Book: Big Kids, Bigger Feelings: Navigating Defiance, Meltdowns, Anxiety to Raise Confident, Connected Kids Episode Sponsors: LMNT OFFER: Right now, for my listeners LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD. That’s 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT any LMNT drink mix purchase. This deal is only available through my link so. Also try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. USE LINK: DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD ANIMA MUNDI OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS PLANT-POWERED protein blend, infused with real vanilla and harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Parenting and Emotions02:48 Understanding Emotions in Parenting06:01 The Role of Connection in Parenting08:50 Identifying Needs Behind Behaviors12:09 Navigating Punishment and Connection14:48 The Importance of Self-Regulation17:51 Co-Regulation and Emotional Intelligence21:09 Addressing Lying and Trust23:47 Creating a Safe Space for Sharing27:00 Understanding Fear and Vulnerability29:45 The Impact of Trauma on Parenting32:59 Conclusion and Resources SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Welcome to the Feel Good Podcast, which is all about heart-led living and wellness. When we awaken the power of our hearts and let that guide us through our daily choices and decisions, through our four cornerstones, food, body, emotional well-being, and spiritual growth, we will experience the most incredible results and create more vitality, health, strength, peace, abundance, and love in our lives. I am your host, Kimberly Snyder, New York Times bestselling author, founder of Solluna, creator of the research-based Heart Aligned Meditation, wellness expert, nutritionist, and international speaker. I am passionate about supporting you on your unique heart and wellness journey. For more information on todays show please go to mysolluna.com for show notes and links. Let’s get started. Speaker 1 (01:29.13)So thank you so much for being here with us today and congrats on your new book. This is your second one. Speaker 2 (01:30.73) Yeah, yeah, my first one, Tiny Human’s Big Emotions came out in 2023. I was like 32 weeks pregnant when that one published, was a whirlwind. Wow. Yeah, that one hit the New York Times bestseller list, which was exciting. Yeah. And then a few weeks after it published, was doing well. Our editor reached out and was like, Alyssa, will you write another book? I was like, actually, I just need a nap. I’m so tired. And so I turned to Rachel, who I’ve worked with, had the privilege of working with now for seven years. And she works with me at my company. And I asked her she would write this bad boy with me. And she said, yeah. So we were able to do it. Well, I think this is so great because many of us are parents in the community or are thinking about being parents in the future or even not. feel like parenting books help us understand ourselves. And I can say as a parent, there’s been this incredible experience of feeling like I’m reparenting myself. And most of us are not learned. You we don’t learn. to handle emotions, have tools as you talk about in your book. And I went through this period of this, where it’s like, hmm, you know, it just felt a little sad and I had to process that. But I also think we’re given the, you know, the childhoods that were meant to be given. But I feel like this is, you know, this is big stuff we’re talking about here. Yeah, people often say they like come for their kids, but they stay for themselves. That so much of this work. We say if you have a nervous system like this works for you. We are really just talking about neuroscience and what it’s like to be a human on planet Earth and be in relationship with other humans. And man, it’s doozy sometimes. Yeah. Speaker 1 (02:55.63)Yeah, and I like how you talk about upfront. It’s not about trying to shield ourselves or our children from hardships because you know my nine-year-old now I can see him being more self-conscious about what he wears to school and Then he told me that there was a child like in one of the older grades who kind of made fun of his dog man sure now he won’t wear it and it just brings up stuff and It’s a lot like all the layers of kind of reliving what we’ve been through as parents. 100%. And I find for myself as a parent, there’s nothing harder than just watching your child experience something hard, like being made fun of, feeling left out, feeling that shame or embarrassment. And knowing that it’s not our job to take it away, but instead to be with them through those hard things to let them know that they can navigate this and survive it. It’s so hard. to do in practice as a parent is allowing it. Well, I’m not sure that all of us were even raised with parents that were aware that there was hardship. I wasn’t. I’m not just blaming my parents or anything. just I don’t think that’s how they were raised either. So I just know that there was a lot of things that I pushed down because I couldn’t handle them. Speaker 1 (04:26.614)And I think that’s ultimately why I turned to certain things like bulimia and eating disorders. I couldn’t digest life. And, you know, as adults, we continue to learn and grow and pass on, you know, more tools to our children. Totally, and we’re not gonna heal all the things and that’s okay too. I think of my friend, Dr. Linietta Willis, she’s an intergenerational trauma therapist. And she talks about our legacy blessings and our legacy burdens. And our legacy blessings are those things that we wanna pass on, that we inherited and that we want to pass on to our children in the next gen. And our legacy burdens are those things that maybe we don’t want to pass on, but also knowing that we’re not going to heal all the burdens, that some of them will get passed on and that’s okay. We get to give our kids the tools and the outlets to continue to heal and process. Yeah Speaker 1 (05:24.078)Well, I love how, and we’ll get into some of the more specific tools you talk about, but there’s a underlying theme of connection, which is, you know, in my work with the heart and just being connected to self and always, even if we’re not perfect parents, if we can stay empathetic, we can be connected. Our children will really feel that. 100%. And when we’re talking about different topics in big kids in this book, we talk about a number of different topics, but you’re right, the through line is not it. The goal isn’t to say, Hey, say this script at this time, or say these exact words or do this exact thing. The through line for us is how do you maintain connection and just stay in relationship with each other and recognizing that Yeah. Speaker 2 (06:13.336)Sometimes relationship is messy and hard and sometimes it feels good and easy and you’re not failing if you’re in conflict in relationship or you’re in the messy hard parts. That’s just a part of being in relationship with each other. Right. Well, you know, as you say, these tiny humans and then middle childhood, there’s different things happening on in their brain and their prefrontal cortex and the way that they process information. So I want to ask you as a parent, you know, some real questions. And then of course, it will illustrate some of the information that you share in big kids, bigger, bigger feelings. either you or Rachel use an example where, obviously paraphrasing here, but I think it was one of the daughters. was teasing the sibling. then the mama, which was you, Rachel, said, well, no screen time tomorrow, if you remember this. And I think as a parent, sometimes we see behaviors in our children. And in our family dynamic, our older son, who’s four years older than our younger son, who’s now five, sometimes he’ll take his choice because he can, and he’s bigger, or he’ll do things. And as hard as a parent, like we don’t know. Sometimes you wanna say, because my kids don’t get screen time except on the weekends. So sometimes I’ll say something, well, next Saturday you’re not gonna get your 30 minutes of screen time. like you said, it’s punishment, give, take, but sometimes you don’t know what else to do. Totally, yeah. Well, and that’s real and a part of just being a human on planet Earth too, that you’re not always gonna in the moment have the answers. So giving ourselves grace is so key here too. But in an ideal world, what we’re looking at is trying to identify, we get to be like a detective and see what’s the need that’s driving this behavior. So when your older son comes and takes that toy from his younger son, is it a need for connection? Speaker 2 (08:08.768)Is he really trying to connect or engage or get somebody’s attention, which is a connection? You get so much attention though. Some of our kids, it’s like a leaky cup. It can feel like a leaky cup for connection. I have a high connection seeker. My daughter’s a high connection seeker. And it can feel like there’s not enough connection in the world that will be enough for her. And my son is not a high connection seeker. It’s almost like it feels easier to fill his connection cup. But also for him, his sensory needs are more demanding than hers. we all just have our own little blueprint walking through this world. But when we can look at what is the need driving the behavior and we break these down into two categories. We have sensory needs and we talk about the nervous system, the nine sensory systems which we can get into. But when we’re looking at that, we’re really looking at are they under stimulated or overstimulated? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Do they need to move their body? Do they need a break from stim? They need to chill. Right, okay. That’s more easier to decode in a way. Speaker 2 (09:11.822)For a lot of us, we grew up in cultures where sensory needs were seen as needs. Food, water, movement, were seen as needs. And connection needs were often seen as wants. It was like attention-seeking behavior, and that was a negative thing. And it wasn’t seen as, you need attention, that you have this need for inclusion or belonging or knowing that you’re loved or worthy or valued. so for a lot of us, the connection needs can actually be quite triggering. where it can feel like, my gosh, this kid’s so needy. They need so much. And that’s our own bias coming up into play and being able to recognize that is half the battle. And then really being able to see like, okay, this is a need for connection. And maybe I just spent a bunch of time connecting with this kiddo and maybe they’re a high connection needs kid. And so what are the outlets for that? Great. Speaker 2 (10:07.154)And we give some examples in the book. And I was actually, was just at an event down in LA where we were, I was met with a group of a hundred moms and we were talking about exactly this. Like what are ways that we can help our kids? Like if I can’t give them more connection in this moment, I’m cooking dinner or I’m trying to do something. What are outlets for that? And we have things like journaling back and forth or being able to call a friend and chat with them on the phone or. FaceTime a grandparent or a cousin or a friend or an aunt or uncle and find ways to have that outlet that’s not always directly from you as the parent or maybe even from the sibling who might have lower connection needs and kind of needs a break to be by themselves for a little bit. Right. Okay. So would you say as a parenting expert, Alyssa, punishment or taking things away doesn’t really work? It just doesn’t solve the problem. What we’re going to do is we’re responding to the behavior on the surface. As long as we’re not meeting that need, you’re going to keep seeing new behaviors pop up because the need doesn’t go away. Right? In the same way that if you had like a baby who was hungry, you could bounce them and shush them all day long, but until you feed them, they’re not going to stop crying because they’re hungry. And if we have a child who needs to move their body or a child who needs to connect, we might put out the fires on the surface, but until we meet that need, you’re just gonna see new ones pop up. Speaker 1 (11:40.226)Do you think that there’s some children in the way that they’re, you know, finding their way in the world? Like my older son is very mischievous, for example. Slime in my farm boots and he thinks it’s hilarious and he laughs like he’s always… Pranks like he loves it. And he just thinks it’s hilarious. And he gets so much attention. Again, like always, all the time. Do you feel like maybe some of this behavior is, you he wants his… He would. Speaker 2 (11:54.888)Such a connection seeker. Speaker 1 (12:09.57)get a rise out of his brother and. really from a place of connection. I want your attention. want you to notice me. brother. From anybody, right? Our high connection seekers, they’ll seek it out anywhere. we can help them identify that. I would say things like, that was a silly prank that you did, or that was silly joke. Did you want me to laugh? Were you trying to connect with me and help kind of bridge that awareness for them of when you’re doing these things, it’s because you want to connect. That’s how we help build their awareness of what is my need. So then when they grow up in the world, they can move through the world knowing, when I feel this way, it’s because I’m hungry. When I feel that way, it’s because I’m tired. When I feel this way, I need to move my body. When I’m doing these things, it’s because I need to connect with somebody, because I need to feel that sense of connection and belong. you Speaker 1 (13:07.278)As many of you know, I’ve been drinking our beloved Power Protein Smoothie Community Recipe for many years. And I do this day to day as a great way to get energizing protein into my day without feeling too heavy. Usually I drink it in the early or mid afternoons. And lately for the protein, I’ve been using the most pure, delicious vanilla chai plant-based protein blend that I want to share with you by Anima Mundi. This protein is made from pumpkin seeds, brown rice, sacha inchi, and pea, and it contains adaptogens like astralagus, ashwagandha, and aluthero, which all have been known to help support recovery, enhance performance, and help the body adapt to everyday stress. It also has digestion-boosting warming ingredients. You know we love that, like cardamom, cinnamon, and ginger. This protein tastes delicious and there’s a subtle sweetness to it which comes from the vanilla and the monk fruit. It’s a way to deeply nourish your cells with amino acids, complete plant-based protein. To get this delicious plant-based blend, please go to anemamundiherbals.com and use code Kim20 to get 20 % off your purchase. Again, we’re talking about the amazing vanilla chai protein powder. That’s anemomundierbals.com code Kim20, A-N-I-M-A-M-U-N-D-I-H-E-R-B-A-L-S.com code Kim20 to get 20 % off your purchase. In a world that is constantly promoting health fads and quick fixes, we can never get past the importance of the basics, such as creating optimal digestion, eating whole foods, and hydration. Yes, hydration. When we are optimally hydrated, our skin glows and is nourished, and it greatly helps us avoid headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness. Besides water, we need electrolytes, which need to be replenished like probiotics. Every morning in my room temperature water that I drink first thing, Speaker 1 (15:27.99)I add a packet of Element electrolytes, usually the watermelon or raspberry flavors, which contain a science-backed mix of magnesium, potassium, and sodium. Element contains no sugar or artificial colors or fillers. I highly recommend that you also incorporate electrolytes into your routine as well to optimize your hydration, which your body, mind, and heart will greatly benefit from. And for now, our amazing community listeners, We’ll get a free sample pack with any element drink mix at www.drinkelement.com slash feel good. That’s eight single serving packets for free with any element drink mix purchase. Please go to www.drinkelement.com slash feel good. That’s www.drinklmnt.com slash feel good. Also check out the new element sparkling, which is a sparkly, fizzy electrolyte water if you love fizzy drinks. Speaker 1 (16:34.958)I’ll just tell you a fear as a parent hearing this is, again, he gets so much attention. Again, everybody says it, right? I pay so much attention to E. So I guess my fear is if he’s still wanting more, what if when he grows up, he gets into unhealthy relationships or he just always has to be in a relationship because of that. I want to reframe, like, you’re looking at intimate relationships. I see most often with our high connection seekers, they often actually seek it out even much outside of intimate relationships in friendships and in other spaces where, like, they might be the human who corrals kids to, like, all get together and play a game or they can often be, like, leaders in a pack where they… are so many outlets for connection that it’s not just an intimate one-to-one relationship. There are so many avenues for it. And as they continue to grow, they’ll find places to connect in different ways to make that happen. And we can support them along the way. But these are humans who it’s a superpower and we need them in this world. My daughter is like this. She is a high connection seeker. She walks into a room of 100 people she doesn’t know. And she’s like, my God, yes, 100 new friends. She’s 20 months. And she’s four? my gosh. and do you think that correlates with being an extrovert? Yeah, a lot of way. Speaker 2 (18:00.494)A lot of our high connection seeking kiddos are also extroverted. You a little bit have to be because it’s going to fill that cup, right? That like when you’re in that, although I just had a kid pop into my head who I when I was teaching and he was five years old and he had high connection needs, but he was an introvert and he would seek out more one to one like peer connection connection for me as a teacher. But he would look forward in those kind of smaller groups. activities and avenues, but he would glom on to like other kids and just want to be near them and want to talk to them and want to share and yada yada. But it was like he had one or two good friends in each space. He wasn’t like, I want to hang out with everyone in the class. Well, so there’s natural extroverts, introverts, connectors, like you said. How do you think this relates to, and you know, this is sort of on a spiritual level and in yogic traditions, you talk about the true self and self connection, which is self-effulgence and fulfilling and being so connected to the love inside that you wanna share it with people, but you’re not needing it. Yeah, I think that we’re, I’m going to pull in the like neuroscience and too. When we’re looking at this, I want to recognize that there’s not a human on the planet where there’s a one size fits all. Right? all of us, our nervous systems operate differently in the way that we integrate stimuli, the way that we integrate the world around us and make sense of it is different for all of us. And for some kids, they are their superpowers. I can noticing the details. or they know if something moves in their environment. They can get really dysregulated by like piles or clutter or things like that because they’re super attuned to the visual stimuli in their space. Some humans who sound, they’re really aware of the sounds in their environment and they can get really overstimulated by sound, especially if there’s competing sounds happening. Some kids who notice the details of how clothing feels in a heightened way. It’s too itchy, it’s too tight, it’s too something. Speaker 2 (20:02.378)And I look at these as superpowers, that they’re really good at noticing, they’re very attuned to those senses. And there are some humans who aren’t as attuned, and for them, can, it then appears as though they can maybe be more easygoing or they can move through the world differently, because their brain isn’t so hyper-focused on like, my gosh, what is that noise? I can’t stop hearing that clicking sound in the background and kind of tuning into those things in different ways. And so when we’re looking at the integration of all of that stimuli. We go through the nine senses in the book and outline it. But I think it’s really important in then saying like how you integrate them then determines how you show up in the world and what you need from the world around you based on how your nervous system is integrating that stimuli, because it’s going to find kind of homeostasis and regulation in different ways based on your unique nervous system. Does that make sense? It does to me. It sounds a little complicated to explain to a child. for sure. I’m going to break it down in different words to Yeah, to a kid. we this so the bulk of the work that we do at Seed is in school systems. I work in schools, elementary, middle schools, and then in childcare programs. And we teach teachers like how to talk to kids about this. How do you teach them about their nervous system? Totally. Well, there’s this idea of self-regulation even is something I think we need to really break down that and self-regulation. Speaker 2 (21:32.404)You teach self-regulation through co-regulation and self-regulation isn’t one size fits all. Wait, so say that again for a moment. mean co-regulation, you regulate yourself and then you’re in the space and then… You know, it’s like goosebumps. It’s almost like the science of heart coherence. Well, our hearts are giving off a magnetic field that’s 100 times stronger than the brain. So when we’re more emotionally calm, you talk about emotional intelligence and the more coherent, our heart rhythms are smooth and our… borrowing your comms. Speaker 2 (21:52.108)Not anymore. Speaker 1 (22:06.306)Brains are nervous, everything’s in sync. People around you feel that. Totally. So as we calm ourselves, we can calm our children more. That’s right. I think of it like the difference between a thermometer and a thermostat. A thermometer is just going to read the temperature of the room, you’re going to join it. A thermostat sets that temperature. And in order to set that temperature, you have to be mindful of your own regulation. So often we want kids to regulate for us. We want them to get calm for us when we can’t. Right. Yeah, I see parents who are literally screaming in public. Yeah. And they’re like, you calm down. We’re at the playground and I heard this, this mom didn’t know we were there. We were in the bathroom and she was like talking to her two girls and then me and my younger son came out and she was like embarrassed. I mean, I felt bad for her because obviously she didn’t want, no one wants to be that person. Nobody wants to be in that state where their body feels so out of control that you’re like, need the humans around me to change their behavior so I can feel in control. And so so much, that’s why I said so many folks, they come for the kids, but stay for themselves that we dive into what is, how does your nervous system work? What does it look like to learn how to build your own self-awareness and self-regulation so that we can then navigate co-regulation with our kids so that Speaker 2 (23:28.098)when our kid comes in and they roll their eyes and they slam the door and they give a sass or the sarcasm or whatever, that we can be the calm force in that moment. And it doesn’t mean I don’t hold boundaries. It doesn’t mean that any behavior is allowed. It does mean that I am really working on, okay, how do I calm my body so that I can respond with intention instead of react from a place of dysregulation. So let’s play this out for any mamas out there who have teenagers or getting close to teenagers, not there yet. But although I’ve seen some behavior from my nine-year-old defiance and disrespect, which you talk about in the book. Let’s say your teenager comes home and you say, or, hey, I’ll be the teenager. Well, it seems like something happened at school today. I’m fine. Yeah, I am here if you want to chat. Would you like space or do you want to talk about? Speaker 1 (24:30.862)Why are you so annoying? Why are you always trying to say that to me? I love you so much. I’m going to be cooking in the kitchen. If you want to come touch base, that’s where I’ll be That’s not a fun. Okay. Let’s do another one. Yeah. I mean, so it’s a center. You’re the center and you’re not trying to grab. Okay. I love it. I’m not taking the bait. Right? Like the bait is all, that would be me joining their energy. And I’m saying like, I’ve got you. I’m still calm in your storm. Okay, let’s do this one, which I have experienced where my son will call me by my first name and I don’t like it. Sure. Okay, so I’ll be the teenager tween, okay? Yeah. Comes home from school. Hey, Alyssa. Speaker 2 (25:15.544)Hey, did you want my attention? I heard you use my first name. Alisha? Yeah, it does sound like you want my attention. I’m here if you want to chat or hang. Lyssa, Lyssa! Yeah, come

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Elevate Your Relationships through Radical Listening with Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh [Episode #986]

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About Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh

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