How Going for Major Career Change can Lead to Inner and Outer Success with Joanne Molinaro [Episode 895]

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Transcript:
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.772)
Hi loves, welcome back for our Monday interview show. I am so excited for our very special guest today, Joanne Lee Molinaro, who is the author of this wonderful book, The Korean Vegan Cookbook. And Joanne is actually originally a lawyer, which we’ll get into today. She has a very interesting journey. She is the daughter of immigrants from Asia, like myself or my mother. I’m half immigrant, Asian born. And she is the amazing energy and personality behind the Korean vegan on social media. So Joanne, thank you so much for being here with us today. We are excited to speak and to share more about your amazing philosophy and book.

Joanne (00:43.035)
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Kimberly Snyder (00:46.5)
So I love your story and I love how you were a lawyer and you just had this passion inside of you to expand. I have a similar, you know, I feel like I started in food and nutrition actually, and now I’m really more into this holistic lifestyle, which includes food, but also spirituality. So I love how we can see we don’t have to be pinned into a box, but rather we can just keep evolving as humans and this creative energy inside of us can go in different directions.

Can you share a little bit about your unfolding journey from being a lawyer into food and then of course plant-based?

Joanne (01:22.93)
Well, I love how you set that up because I think there is something inherently scary about evolving, if you will. I think there is an instinct of ours that’s like, no, I’m comfortable. I kind of like where I’m at. I want to keep the status quo. I’m good here. And the idea of growing and evolving and changing can be really scary and intimidating to a lot of people. And it certainly was to me. As you noted, I was a lawyer. So-

I was conditioned to be about as risk averse as you could possibly imagine. And I think it wasn’t until I started to view evolution as a form of liberation, if you will, as a form of, oh, I’m freeing myself from this status quo that isn’t really doing me a lot of good at the moment. That’s when…

Kimberly Snyder (01:54.702)
Yes.

Joanne (02:16.03)
evolution started to look exciting and enticing and invigorating and all of the things that you really should be seeking as part of a life-affirming view. And eventually I decided, hey, this food thing with the Korean vegan, it’s an artistic opportunity for me. It’s a way for me to channel my creative side and do something that is personally fulfilling while also making a living out of it.

And I decided to just basically dive head first once my book came out.

Kimberly Snyder (02:51.012)
Wow. Well, as I mentioned, my mother is Asian. She’s from the Philippines. And her immigrant mentality was, you know, we want to do better than the last generation because she grew up, you know, quite poor in the Philippines and she came over in a scholarship. So academia was really pushed in my family. And I went into college with a partial science scholarship and one point I was going to be a doctor. So when I decided to go backpacking for three years, Joanne, you can imagine.

Joanne (03:18.688)
Um.

Kimberly Snyder (03:19.92)
how my parents, it didn’t start three years, but it just kept evolving. And so for me, there was this period of, a bit of a rift where I felt like I was trying to be pushed into something I wasn’t, there was such an emphasis, you’re wasting your education, especially for you as a lawyer all the years beyond college of going to additional schooling. So there’s quite a leap from that into.

Yes, I’m just following my creative calling. How was your family supporting you through that? Or how did you really find the courage and the voice to cross over?

Joanne (03:58.046)
Well, I think what you described is actually very brave. I would not have had the courage to do that. Like three years backpacking against my parents’ approval. Like, you know, I waited until I was in my 40s and a little bit more gravitas and, you know, a little bit more hair on me to like, you know, tell my parents, no, you’re gonna listen to me. I would not have been able to do that in my 20s or even in my 30s. So kudos to you for doing that.

Kimberly Snyder (04:09.015)
Yes.

Yeah.

Joanne (04:27.594)
Because my parents were exactly the same way. They were both extremely poor when they were in Korea. They had to go through a war. They had nothing. So when they came to the United States and built this life for us, it was exactly what you described. Everything was positioned around school and academia. I wasn’t allowed to pursue music, even though that’s what I wanted to do, because that wasn’t going to be a financially secure career for me.

They had everything planned for me, but I wasn’t a very obedient child, I think. I was very much like, no, I wanna be an English major. Well, what are you gonna do with that? I don’t know. But, so I was always finding ways to compromise with my parents. Okay, fine, I won’t be vocal performance, which is what I really wanted, but I’m also not gonna go into medical school.

I’m not gonna be a lawyer. I said that until I was blue in the face. And eventually I found my way kind of internalizing their anxiety, notwithstanding, and then choosing law as a result of that internalized anxiety. Even though I grew up in relative abundance, something of their anxiety sort of seeped into me, notwithstanding, and I grew up very much aware of

Kimberly Snyder (05:21.628)
Ah!

Kimberly Snyder (05:29.296)
Mmm.

Joanne (05:45.026)
financial security being one of the bedrock values of my life, you know, for good and for bad. So when I ultimately decided, hey, I’m going to withdraw from partnership, a career that I have spent nearly two decades building, and, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in law school education and loans, I’m going to, you know, pull out of that. I’m going to…

go full force into something called the Korean Vegan, which I still can’t even really explain to my parents in a way that they can understand. It was a very unpleasant conversation. My mom was extremely unhappy, yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (06:22.017)
Yeah, I bet.

Kimberly Snyder (06:26.668)
You know, it’s funny because what I know of you and looking at your social media and reading your book, there’s so much heart in what you write and there’s this connection and I can almost, I’m getting goosebumps. I can almost imagine that being in that legal sort of job for two decades might have felt like you were in prison or something because it’s funny, my husband was a lawyer too.

And he is very creative. He’s completely tattooed. He’s, I mean, not that that’s anything, but just like out, he wears a gold grill in his teeth and no one would believe he was a lawyer and his dad was a lawyer. So he kind of went down that path and was miserable. He was only a lawyer for like three years, right? But sometimes we get, oh, this is the safer path. So what were those years like because you have this voice, right? Whether it was music or expression and now you’re channeling it into your recipes.

What did that feel like while you were in there?

Joanne (07:20.818)
You know, I hesitate that it was like prison because I do still love my firm. I, you know, I’m extremely grateful to them. And, you know, I have absolutely indescribable mentors at that place. And, you know, I’m very lucky and grateful. But at the same time, towards the end especially, I can tell you that the idea that I would be spending the rest of my life

doing that, showing up to the office and lawyering. Even on the best days, I was like, yeah, I was like, is this really it for me? Is this my life? And that, at a certain point, the despair associated with that kind of no bend in the road type of future began to outweigh the fear.

Kimberly Snyder (07:57.52)
It’s a herb. Yeah.

Joanne (08:18.274)
that I always associated with doing something different with that bend in the road. At a certain point, I became so desperate to see what was down that bend that I was willing to say, even if it’s a little scary, I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna turn. I’m gonna make a really, really sharp right turn here because I need to see what’s down that bend.

Kimberly Snyder (08:39.748)
So you say a sharp turn, Joanne, did you just go from one to the other? There wasn’t a transition where you started your channels and you started sort of, you know, warming it up. Or did you just, did you just cut ties and move?

Joanne (08:49.27)
That’s a great question. I don’t know about you and the three-year road trip, if that was a sharp turn, but that was not a sharp turn for me. I’m glad that you put it that way. I always view the day when I left the firm, I still technically work with the firm on an of-counsel basis, but when I withdrew from partnership, I do think that was a very sharp turn that was like, okay, I’m doing it. But you’re right. I knew of the turn.

many, many years in advance. Like I had sort of advanced warning, like there was a signpost, you know, coming, you know, every mile I’d see, okay, well, there’s a turn on the road if you want to take it, if you want to take it, do you want to take it? And so I think there was a part of me that, you know, first was just so like blinders on, I didn’t even see anything. And it wasn’t until I started the Korean Vegan in 2016.

Kimberly Snyder (09:18.126)
Yeah.

Joanne (09:38.518)
just as a hobby and actually at the recommendation of a mentor of mine who thought I was working too hard, I was like, oh, you need a hobby. I was like, okay, I’ll do this thing, you know? And it was a hobby for so many years. And then in a couple years, I was offered a book deal. And I think that was when I first saw a sign, if you will, on the road that said, hey, there might be a turn in the road coming up for you if you wanna take it.

And slowly I paid more and more attention to those signs. And slowly I was able to make preparations to turn down that bend if I really wanted to, like put money away at my savings account, start thinking of ways to monetize my blog, start paying very close attention to my expenses and ways to manage them if I became a solo entrepreneur.

These are all things that I started doing about a year in advance. And I think that is incredibly important.

Kimberly Snyder (10:41.228)
Mm. So were you always interested in cooking and food? I mean, you have a lot of stories around your family’s, you know, culinary traditions that you share, but was it something, you know, growing up you were excited about or did it come sort of later in life?

Joanne (10:58.794)
I was never really into cooking per se. I was always into eating. I love food. I love like airy food. And I think, you know, you probably have some experience with this for many immigrant families. Food is one of the few ways that families keep in touch with their homelands, with their native countries. And that was certainly the case for my family. We grew up eating Korean food. And…

Also, for countries and traditions and cultures that have experienced extreme poverty, which again was the case for my family, coming to eat together, the fellowship around food was incredibly important. I was not allowed to miss the dinner table. We had to come together. It didn’t matter if I was doing homework, if I was watching TV. There was no excuse I had to do it.

Kimberly Snyder (11:45.997)
Mmm.

Joanne (11:53.63)
I couldn’t have a book in my hands or these days, I guess, phones at the table. Like, no, this is a very serious time. We needed to be together as a family. So I think in that way, food always had a central role, but it wasn’t until I went plant based when I really had to zero in on the cooking part of it.

Kimberly Snyder (11:57.02)
Well… Yes.

Love that.

Kimberly Snyder (12:12.912)
So both of your parents were from Korea, right? So you had that shared sort of family. For me, Joanne, only my mother was from the Philippines. And so I grew up in a very, very white community. I was the only exotic one being half Asian. So when I started becoming aware of, oh, the foods I’m bringing to lunch are kind of weird for people. I was bringing Filipino food and my mom had been poor. So she kind of was ashamed of her accent.

Joanne (12:15.928)
Yes.

Joanne (12:21.783)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (12:41.536)
and she was trying to assimilate us. So there was this weird push pull of, yes, my mother’s from the Philippines, but almost trying to hide it a little bit or just feel like I just wanted to fit in like a lot of kids do. I don’t wanna look different. I don’t wanna seem different. So for you growing up, did you experience any sort of shame around your roots or in the particular neighborhood you grew up in? Because I know a lot of immigrants do wanna keep the culture, but at the same time,

coming to America is a big deal as an immigrant. And so you want your kids to be successful. So it’s a really interesting push-pull.

Joanne (13:18.29)
It is an interesting push pull and I love the way that you described it, especially kind of with that food. Um, cause I think many immigrant children have experienced that moment when they all of a sudden realize, wait a second, there’s something different here. And for whatever reason, as young people, we are conditioned to believe that different is not good.

Kimberly Snyder (13:33.685)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (13:40.93)
Yes.

Joanne (13:41.046)
Different is dangerous even and I think that again is an internalized anxiety. We inherit from our parents My mom was the same way, you know My mom made it very clear that I had to learn English without an any accent I you know had to Write in English exactly the way that my teachers taught me You know, and we were told to speak English at home

because she wanted me to show up to school being like all the other American kids. And eventually all those lunches that were a source of shame for me were replaced with ham sandwiches and Cheetos and juice boxes. You know, so like they were very attendant to this anxiety that we all felt as a family. But at the same time, like you said, it was a push and pull because at home, my grandma only spoke Korean.

Kimberly Snyder (14:18.773)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (14:22.726)
Oh no!

Joanne (14:35.99)
So I had to speak Korean. We only ate Korean food at home. And there were a lot of ways that my parents tried to make sure, well, yes, we want you to be successful as an American, but you can’t ever forget that you’re also Korean.

Kimberly Snyder (14:36.065)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (14:40.188)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (14:51.064)
Yeah. You know, Joanne, as you’re speaking, before we get deeper into your book and the Korean vegan philosophy, which is fascinating because I actually was in Seoul for three weeks and I had a very challenging time being plant-based in Korea. We’ll talk about that in a sec. But one thing is you’re speaking, you know, you’re talking about, you know, your expression and singing. There’s a real softness, like this feminine, this gentleness.

Joanne (15:06.186)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (15:16.108)
And I wonder along your journey when you were, you know, sort of focusing on academia and being a lawyer, was there ever a time where you felt a bit hardened, like you were moving away from your true self and now you’re in this fullest expression of cooking and creating and it sort of cracked open that armor? Or were you able to keep that real gentle, seems like a really authentic part of who you are along the way.

Joanne (15:24.406)
Mm.

Joanne (15:41.334)
That is such a great question. And I’ve never actually thought of that. I think that there’s like this latent part of me that understands that what I get to do today, telling stories in my way, in my voice, is the thing that I can do. Like that I can do really well. And that is like my superpower. But before, the thing that I was doing was sort of like, meh.

Kimberly Snyder (15:46.236)
I can hear it in your voice.

Kimberly Snyder (16:01.29)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne (16:09.37)
You know what I mean? Like I was putting on this persona for myself and for everyone else, mostly my clients and my colleagues. And I was okay at it, but it wasn’t the thing that really lit me up. And to your question, I distinctly recall having a phone call with one of my older colleagues. He was a man and he said, Joanne, you’re too nice.

Kimberly Snyder (16:10.457)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (16:34.908)
Wow.

Joanne (16:36.767)
you have to get in touch with your inner bear. And he started growling at me on the phone, like, grrr, come on, make that noise with me, Joanne, grrr. And I was like, I can’t believe I’m having this conversation. This is so bizarre. Did you just growl at me? But that’s, I will never forget that because I remember that, wow, this is who I need to become. I need to become this person that I don’t like, that I actually don’t wanna hang out with. And that was always a problem for me at work.

Kimberly Snyder (16:44.035)
No.

Kimberly Snyder (17:02.114)
Yeah.

Joanne (17:04.83)
I never found really many women, if any, who I could look up to and say, not only is she a effing badass lawyer, she’s actually somebody I want to hang out with at the end of the day. That was very difficult.

Kimberly Snyder (17:16.494)
Yeah.

Wow. I mean, that’s the guy trying to growl. That’s hilarious. Sometimes I think about all these amazing, you know, the archetypes, especially in the yoga tradition, which I love so much, where there’s that Kali, there’s that fierceness where she’s also said to be the most compassionate. There’s also the, you know, the gentle, the Saraswati is the creative. And so there’s, we have to be who we are, even though we have all these different aspects. And I think when we have to wear these masks and we get put into these.

Joanne (17:22.73)
I don’t know.

Kimberly Snyder (17:46.16)
positions or environments or jobs because it is the safe way or because we think that’s going to create some sort of security, it never feels natural. And as my dear friend Deepak Chopra and co-author said to me, he said, you’re not going to stay in a situation for long that feels really unnatural. Right? So we can make it work, whether that’s a relationship, right? Or this is a safe relationship or a safe job. Something inside of us just feels like, oh, it’s like a sock that doesn’t fit right or shoe, right? It just…

Joanne (18:15.094)
Yeah, yeah, it does grind away. And the sad thing about it is, you know, I get the point about you’re not going to stay in it for long, but sometimes we stay in it for a lot longer than we need to, you know? And it’s just for whatever reason, we’re like, well, what if the next sock is even worse? That’s the thing that like keeps us from like taking off the sock that’s like grinding away at your feet. Like just take it off, walk barefoot for a while if you need to.

Kimberly Snyder (18:15.973)
Rhymes away.

Kimberly Snyder (18:28.289)
That’s true.

Kimberly Snyder (18:36.346)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (18:43.108)
That’s right. I mean, I didn’t have the courage, I would say, or the strength to really walk away from my last relationship, Joanne, until my mom passed away really suddenly. Because it was sort of this disruptor, like, wow, anything can happen at any time. Like life is here right now. So then I was like, whoa, this isn’t it. But if that didn’t happen, and I think about this sometimes, my gosh, what if it just kept drifting and drifting along? And how many of us kind of accept?

So so.

Joanne (19:14.318)
Yes, I used to say this a lot, like, especially to women, because I think women tend to sort of adopt this mentality that our inheritance is suffering, needless suffering. But I always say, I was living at 70%, 80%, and I used to think that was all I deserved, that all I deserved was 70, maybe 80% on a good day.

Kimberly Snyder (19:25.881)
Mm.

Joanne (19:40.81)
And I never let myself believe that I deserved 100% and what that even looked like. And everyone has their different wake up moment. And I eventually woke up and I was like, wait a second. I will, who said that I only deserve 70 or 80%? Am I saying that to myself? Cause that’s just not true. I deserve all of it and I’m gonna go after it even if it’s hard.

Kimberly Snyder (20:06.316)
What prompted that was it sounds like a kind of a spiritual epiphany. Was it one day or was it sort of this buildup, as you mentioned earlier, sort of something in your heart coming up?

Joanne (20:16.074)
Yeah, I talk about this in my own podcast and it’s kind of embarrassing. I read this book called Twilight. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Yeah, it’s the vampire.

Kimberly Snyder (20:26.26)
The tween book? Oh, I never read those books. I’ve heard of the movies. I have not seen the movies or read the books.

Joanne (20:33.79)
So I read this book and I was like, oh my God, like this is like, you know, it’s not that I wanted a vampire boyfriend, but it was like, why not? Kind of like that mentality, like what she had in that like love story was like, sort of this unbridled passion, finding somebody who really lit you up from inside. And I think that.

That w