Understanding Toxic Productivity with Isra Nasir [Episode #963]

This Week’s Episode:

In this conversation, Kimberly and Isra Nasir, Author of Toxic Productivity, delve into how societal pressures and personal experiences shape our understanding of productivity and self-worth. They discuss the impact of natural disasters on personal reflection, the balance between work and personal life, and the importance of recognizing and managing shame and scarcity mindsets. The conversation highlights the need for intentional choices in parenting, education, and personal growth, emphasizing the cultural shifts brought about by the internet and social media.

About Issra Nasir

Courtney Carver is he is the author of Soulful Simplicity, Project 333, and her current book Gentle: Rest More, Stress Less, and Live the Life You Actually Want (Balance/ Hachette Livre; February 18th, 2025). She is also the creator of bemorewithless.com and The Simplicity Space, a membership program and community full of women who are reducing stress and simplifying life. She also co-hosts The Soul & Wit Podcast with her daughter, Bailey. She has been featured in countless articles, podcasts, interviews, including O, The Oprah Magazine, Real Simple, Vogue, Success, BBC, The Guardian, today.com, Good Morning America, CNN, USA Today, Forbes, PBS, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times.

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Guest Resources

Book: Toxic Productivity: Reclaim Your Time and Emotional Energy in a World That Always Demands More

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Productivity
02:47 The Impact of Natural Disasters on Perspective
05:58 Understanding Toxic Productivity
08:47 The Role of Parenting and Education
12:10 Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset
15:05 Managing Shame and Over-Functioning
17:57 Cultural Shifts and the Internet’s Influence
25:01 Navigating Modern Communication Overload
25:58 The Myth of Meritocracy and Generational Challenges
27:49 Cultural Shifts and Redefining Success
28:49 Creating Healthier Work Environments
30:16 The Importance of Self-Boundaries
32:15 Mindful Living in a Fast-Paced World
33:30 Undercommitting for Better Balance
35:28 Transformative Power of Writing
38:35 Reconnecting with Creativity and Play
43:48 The Invitation to Self-Awareness and Action

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.373)
Hi loves and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so grateful to be back with you all here in the home studio. I’m just coming back from evacuation and the fires and we have a very pertinent topic and guest for you today. Isra Nasir, who is joining us from New York City. She is a New York City based psychotherapist, writer and the founder of Well Guide, a digital community for mental health awareness And she has a new book, which I’m holding here in my hands right now, Toxic Productivity. Reclaim your time and emotional energy in a world that always demands more. So thank you so much, Isra, for being here with us today. It feels like the right time to talk about this.

Israa (00:49.718)
Yeah, well, thank you for having me and I’m glad to hear that you’re okay and things feel a little bit more normal, probably being in your own home, but it’s, I’m happy to hear that you’re doing okay in the chaos that’s happening.

Kimberly Snyder (01:04.277)
Thank you. And you know, it’s funny because there is, as I look out my window, you can see the burn scar of the fire all around. And when you go through something like this, there’s all these natural disasters that happen. What I really feel right now in the land and in the area is a very deep stillness, stillness that comes. And it’s a really powerful time, I think, to transform and to rethink our lives and what’s really important. I know so…

Israa (01:23.054)
you

Kimberly Snyder (01:33.653)
So many of us, was, you know, pack one bag and run. And it was pictures of my parents and things from my kids. And in daily life, the subject of your book is sometimes we get caught up in thinking things are important and we’re on this hamster wheel all the time. So sometimes it just sort of gets, you know, these, are opportunities. I’m living in it right now, right? This opportunity to transform and rebirth. Because fires are death and rebirth.

Israa (01:58.806)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (02:02.805)
And so now in this aftermath, sort of rethinking, reframing what is it that really matters and where do we get our self-worth and what is really valuable in life? Big questions.

Israa (02:17.814)
Yeah, yeah. You know, when these kind of like calamities happen, whether they’re natural disasters or personal life events, I think most of the time, the last thing we’re thinking about in these type of moments is work, right? And productivity and achievement and stuff like that. Yet when things are like status quo, that’s the thing we think about the most. You know, and so I think

Kimberly Snyder (02:35.176)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (02:44.585)
Yeah.

Israa (02:47.232)
It’s just like an interesting thing that I noticed even about myself, right? When the United CEO was shot here in New York City a couple of months ago, it did start this discourse around how quickly, like within a month they had found someone to replace him, like work goes on. And I think it’s so important to take stock of like,

where you are putting your time. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t work like I work, work is important. It’s just really about balance.

Kimberly Snyder (03:25.211)
Yeah. And I would also say, as I went through your book and the topics, it even can expand beyond traditional work. think to, as a working mom, I’m in the work world. I’m also in the mom community. And I can also see shades of this with stay at home moms who can feel more productive doing more things at home or at school or having more kids to show that they’re doing more. Right. So you can actually fit into different

spheres because underneath it is that tendency, you know, whether we’re formally working or not.

Israa (04:01.71)
Yeah, I mean, I like to think of it as like paid and unpaid work. know, moms are doing more than full time roles of unpaid work. So, you know, and, and I think that I was very intentional in the book because like, when you think of the word productivity, you definitely think of work, but that’s the first thing that comes up. And I think up until like, probably like till, so in 2019, the WHO,

Kimberly Snyder (04:10.514)
you

Kimberly Snyder (04:23.412)
Yeah.

Israa (04:31.517)
declared burnout as an official syndrome. So not a clinical diagnosis, but an official syndrome that is a cluster of symptoms that lead to a certain behavior that is harmful. That’s the definition, right? But probably around 2020, 2021, new research started coming up. People became more interested in how we can actually be burnt out in other areas of our life, including being caregivers to either to elder dependence or younger dependence being partners, you can have romantic relationship burnout. You can feel burnt out in your personal health and personal growth arena. So that’s like more newer research that’s expanding the definitions of how far we take this toxic productivity mindset. And that’s why I was very interested in this because I was feeling it in different areas of my life. And I was very intentional.

Kimberly Snyder (04:57.557)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (05:18.997)
Yeah.

Israa (05:26.87)
in the book to use vignettes that showed how we can bring this mindset into our romantic relationships, how we bring it into parenting. There’s a case of any throughout the book. There’s a character we follow who is a mom and a lawyer. And like, she’s trying to battle these two roles. And then also in our, you know, personal health, self-care and friendships, it’s really like a mindset that is very much valorized.

Kimberly Snyder (05:36.275)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (05:54.463)
Right.

Israa (05:56.423)
in our culture.

Kimberly Snyder (05:58.399)
I would even say I was kind of chuckling a little bit when you talked about partnership, because I also have friends that are wanting partnership and there’s this burnout of being productive, being on every dating app, going on a million dates, just trying so hard, right? So it’s applying that sort of driven never enough energy to sort of always being in that search mode that we describe instead of actually just being and enjoying life.

Israa (06:23.16)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (06:27.157)
Right? The balance of, sure, I want to put myself out there if I’m single and this is what I want versus if I am not trying, I’m wasting my time or I’m not doing enough. So it really does fit into any particular area.

Israa (06:40.63)
Exactly, and in any arena it’s in, what it does is it tells you that the thing in front of you is not good enough. And so it keeps you on the cycle, right? So like if, as a person who’s dating, you’re constantly in this mindset of, wait, wait, this is not good enough. I either have to do more, I have to meet more, or there’s somebody better. This like illusion of optionality in today’s world kind of like crashes into the productivity mindset.

Kimberly Snyder (07:01.621)
Mmm.

Israa (07:06.766)
And it creates this idea that I have to go out more, I have to meet more people, and the person I’m meeting, there’s somebody better. So I have to optimize, I have to optimize. And you see this in parents. It’s not enough that my kid is doing four things. They need to do one more thing. Otherwise, they’re not optimizing their time. There was a great Atlantic article written about how it was like the, I’m forgetting the headline.

Kimberly Snyder (07:13.29)
Right.

Israa (07:34.914)
But the article is about how there is no more unstructured play for younger children now in the way America is set up. Because there’s something that needs to happen for these children. And even play is structured. You have structured play dates versus the unstructured play that many millennials grew up in, millennials and older. And so we’ve bought this optimization everywhere.

Kimberly Snyder (07:44.76)
yeah.

Israa (08:04.536)
frankly, not to sound like, you know, what’s the word? Like, I don’t want to be intentionally salacious, but I think that being too optimized and too structured leads to a very boring life. There is like no spontaneity. There’s no adventure. There’s no time to daydream and be like, you know, unreasonable in your imagination. Like everything is too centered on outcome.

Kimberly Snyder (08:32.82)
Yes.

Israa (08:34.54)
And so it becomes really like, we kind of pulverize all of our originality so that we all look the same. Our lives look the same. Our children are the same. Our partners are the same. Our holidays are the same, right? And so it just feels boring.

Kimberly Snyder (08:47.197)
Yeah, it’s true. Well, I think it’s, you know, it’s good to have these discussions because we really can make these intentional choices. I didn’t think about this as much until I became a mom. And I started looking at schools and started really seeing, wow, this doesn’t fit what I believe personally, and even how I grew up. So my kids go to Waldorf schools where it’s all about maintaining childhood and this unstructured, you know, the whole child.

And so I have created that for my children, it’s, it’s considered, you know, fringe in some ways. It’s very different than public school or a lot of other more traditional private schools. But I see my kids thriving. see incredible, the imagination games. My younger son wins all these chess tournaments, not because he’s sitting all day, but because he’s doing all these, you know, more real world math examples at Waldorf. So anyways, I just want to say this to moms and people everywhere. If this

resonates. really are different environments and groups and communities that you can seek out because more and more is highlighted around how this and you know there’s this Ted talk that was called you know something along the lines of why traditional school makes our kids dumb. Right so we see a lot of tech people especially sending their kids to Waldorf and schools like that. So anyways back to the book back to toxic productivity.

Israa (10:07.178)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (10:13.821)
What was interesting for me is that I also published a book a few months ago, Isra, and it was about the heart. And there’s these five heart stages, the dark heart, where you don’t have a lot of energy, there’s a lot of fear, and then the propelled heart, which really describes this toxic productivity where I was for much of my life, which is externally oriented. What do people think of me, judging self and others, comparing, always on the hamster wheel. And then you can start to steady yourself, steady heart, devoted heart, clear heart, where you come into that presence.

Israa (10:31.982)
Thank

Kimberly Snyder (10:42.633)
But so much, you know, when you read this and I get so many questions on all the podcasts I was going on, well, how do I actually quell the overthinking mind or this underlying feeling of really not doing enough? Because underneath that, you know, when we look deeper, it’s, don’t feel enough. So one of the chapters that I really resonated the most was called the audacity of abundance, right? Because if we get into the mind and we believe the ego, it never is enough.

Israa (11:07.159)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (11:11.827)
Right? We look on social media, we should be more fit, we should have this. Like you said, we should be on this kind of vacation. We’re making this much money, like da-da-da-da-da. And so there’s this lack-based, or as you talk about in the book, the scarcity thinking. What have you seen in your clients, in your own experience, to really shift over and break these patterns, you know, which doesn’t happen overnight, away from scarcity, into really believing that we’re enough?

Israa (11:25.9)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Israa (11:41.302)
Yeah. So scarcity is obviously a mindset that we learn. Like everything that we think is stuff we have learned. So I think that’s the first thing I think programming, conditioning, like all the stuff. But I think the beauty in knowing that, like really knowing it, is also knowing that you can relearn things, right? So we don’t have to be like, what we’ve been taught is not our destiny. It’s just the context that we exist in.

Kimberly Snyder (11:49.013)
Programming.

Israa (12:10.744)
So we can change that context. So the first thing to kind of step out of scarcity is, well, I mean, once you’ve recognized it, right? So like, if you don’t really have a lot of awareness of how you’re operating, a lot of times scarcity seems like the more logical path, right? It feels like the more reasonable thing to do. And so like, for instance, like if you have like a job opportunity,

Kimberly Snyder (12:32.372)
Right.

Israa (12:40.34)
Scarcity, you will say to you, you don’t meet all of the requirements. So you don’t need to apply. Like, you’re probably not going to get it because you don’t meet all the requirements, right? The underlying fear in that is, you know what? Let’s protect you from rejection. There’s a scarcity there around how much you can handle. So I think in order to become aware of the mindset that you’re operating in, you have to become aware of the type of thoughts that you have.

Kimberly Snyder (12:56.735)
Amen.

Mmm.

Israa (13:10.094)
And that frankly is a little difficult to do alone if you’re not somebody who’s accustomed to a lot of self-reflection. In this way, like having like a very candid conversation with your partner, maybe even observing your patterns, are you somebody who says no to opportunities first? Are you somebody who sees obstacles before opportunities first? Let’s say someone offers you a job, let’s just say, right?

Instead of noticing the positives of this new role, I’ll manage a better team, I’ll have more money, like whatever, you jump to the obstacles. Like, I’ll have to meet new people. I’m so comfortable in my job already. Right? Like, where do you sit on this? I think those can be indicators of what type of mindset you have, scarcity or abundance. You can talk to a trusted friend. You can ask your partner, they see you every single day, siblings.

And then of course a therapist. If you do know that you operate from a scarcity mindset, like if you’re aware for whatever reason, I think emotional regulation is a really good way to get started on this journey of transforming scarcity into abundance. Because yeah, scarcity is based on fear. Fear activates the fear center of your brain, which activates fight or flight, right? So like what happens is your body takes over, your emotions are unresolved, they’re unregulated.

And so, or dysregulated. And so I think emotional regulation helps you bring it down, pause, so that you can choose abundance.

Kimberly Snyder (14:46.037)
Okay, okay. So that’s, it’s almost like a self-sabotage as you’re describing it. And then there’s this other, you know, what I call lack, which maybe is a little bit, you talk about shame and other aspects here, where it’s that doing a lot to sort of make up for this insecurity or the worth, right? Or the lack of self-worth just in being this. And I can think of a mom in one of my mom groups who, you know, had a fourth child.

Israa (15:05.944)
then.

Kimberly Snyder (15:15.989)
And it came into every sentence, you know, I have four kids. And it like gave her like a sense of like, I’m doing more than everyone else, because everyone else in the mom’s group had one to three kids, right? Or this sense of like, you know, she’s probably gonna try to have a fifth or a sixth or you know, whatever it is that she has ascribed to this sense of I have to keep going to feel like I’ve done enough. And I could say for myself personally, you know, it was like perfect grades.

Israa (15:23.182)
and

Kimberly Snyder (15:42.613)
president of the high school, president of National Honor Society, captain of the track team and became an author. Then it was like, you have to be a New York Times bestseller. And then the next one and the next one, right? It’s just like the hamster wheel, like the constantly, that drive, that burnout that, you know, for me, was like you said, recognizing it and then also really questioning what is it that makes me feel good? And it doesn’t come from my mind. It actually comes when I’m still and I’m in my…

heart and then you can start to see the contrast. And then it started for me to disable this myth of more doesn’t really make me happier.

Israa (16:21.152)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (16:22.547)
little by little, but it doesn’t break the patterns overnight, but at least you start to see it.

Israa (16:26.88)
Yeah, I think that you’re right. you know, a lot of us are over-functioning, constantly like feeling like we need to do more, not only for ourselves, but for others around us. Like, I think, you know, how can I solve the problem for my partner? How can I like preempt some other issue at work? How can I, you know, prevent my sister from dating like a horrible dude? Right? Like we’re constantly trying to solve other people’s problems.

Kimberly Snyder (16:40.381)
Yes.

Israa (16:55.502)
and over-functioning because it gives us a sense of purpose and need and validation, like from an external perspective. And I think that, you know, something that really transformed my relationship to this, because similar to you, you know, good grades, high functioning, like over-functioning, over-achieving, all that stuff, the good girl syndrome, as they call it, that’s how I grew up as well. And I think what shifted for me as I started thinking about this stuff is,

kind of defining a good enough point when I start something. So even with like writing the book, Like where was my good enough point where I felt like, okay, this chapter is good enough to be sent to the editor, you know, or I like write articles and sometimes I’ll just delay sending it to like pass the deadline sometimes because I’m like, where, like, cause I don’t have a good enough point. So I think it’s really important to be aware of our

Kimberly Snyder (17:38.463)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (17:51.573)
Mmm.

Israa (17:54.52)
good enough point for everything, whether it’s our personal health, whether it’s like a work related thing, whether it’s our families, because then you can rationalize your desire to over function. Like you can rationalize out of it. Cause you can say, wait, you know, I did meet the good enough point. Anything after this is extra. And I think it’s like a, it’s like a skill you have to build.

Kimberly Snyder (17:57.173)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (18:19.285)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s good to know that we, and it’s different for everybody, but it’s personal and it can be defined. And you can write it down. I’m a big journaler as well. And it does help me sort of reflect why I’m saying yes to this or why, you know, what’s really going on here. So another chapter which stood out to me was managing unresolved shame. So when we don’t feel good about ourselves,

We can sort of channel those feelings and that restlessness into the doing mode and sort of try to cover over really deep, painful, unprocessed emotions that we keep buying into. So can you talk a little bit about that relationship?

Israa (19:07.852)
Shame is a really powerful emotion. And it’s an emotion that is internally facing. So shame is constantly looking at you. And there’s an element of self-judgment. And of course, lot of shame is inherited. We inherited from our primary caretakers. We have some early life experiences that can really build this foundation of, I’m not good.

Kimberly Snyder (19:17.268)
Yeah.

Israa (19:36.632)
people don’t love me because I’m not good. Like that’s like the basic foundation that we can learn if we have like, let’s say emotionally distant parents or if you have emotionally neglectful parents or if we had like a lot of like emotional chaos in the home that can very quickly become this like foundational core belief that there’s something wrong with me.

Kimberly Snyder (19:46.42)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (19:55.285)
Mmm.

Israa (20:04.044)
And that’s why my parents don’t love me. That’s why it’s so chaotic, right? And then that carries into our school environments. And sometimes like events can happen at school that really, like if you’ve been bullied as a young person, like it can really develop a core belief that there’s something wrong with me. And so what happens is shame is so existential, like it’s an existential threat to ourself. So what happens is our mind just tries to wrap

Kimberly Snyder (20:04.159)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (20:23.829)
Mm.

Israa (20:32.534)
around it and cover it with behaviors. And so we end up doing a lot of things to undo this feeling of shame. And that’s why you see a lot of people who are bullied when they were young become bullies as adults. Like they become the workplace bully. They become bullies in their relationships because it’s a way to overpower that shame that they feel. Or even like.

Kimberly Snyder (20:49.695)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (20:56.873)
Right.

Israa (20:59.148)
children who are emotionally abused become emotionally abusive parents. And one would think that you’re like, but you know how it feels. Like, why would you do this to somebody else? But it’s because you’re to undo the shame. And shame can also take the shape of a lot of behaviors. That’s the ones that I talk about in the book of over-functioning. Like, if I do a lot of things, then I will be worthy. People will love me.

Kimberly Snyder (21:09.589)
Yeah.

Israa (21:25.452)
And if I’m perfect, perfectionism often has roots in shame, right? And I talk about perfectionism in the book as well as like, if I’m perfect, if I make no mistakes, then people will love me. I will never be rejected. My value becomes higher in somebody else’s eyes. And so it’s a very difficult emotion to uncover because it’s so deeply like folded into the narrative of our belief system about ourselves.

And I offer some reflection points in the book around shame that are, they’re like gateways to reflection. I think, if you’re somebody who’s really trying to work on shame, I will say that it’s really hard to do on your own. And it’s probably a better idea to have a behavioral health coach or a therapist to kind of help you through it, because it is a very challenging emotion.

Kimberly Snyder (21:53.268)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (22:00.575)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (22:19.689)
Yeah, it’s, you know, finding almost an anchor because when you start to open that door, it can feel at times quite overwhelming. It can feel very dark and it’s something that does need to be digested. And in my experience, it can be, you know, process to get through it. But I’m glad you wrote that chapter because otherwise if we don’t even consider that that’s a possibility or look to the past, we’re still on the hamster wheel. We’re still…

running around and it doesn’t solve anything even when we get that perfect so-called partner or we get that job promotion or whatever it is. It feels like right now there’s a lot of toxic productivity going on in general. And I’m not sure why culturally we may, you know, if there’s any research about, you know, with social media or the internet, like things are so much faster.

Or was there something that happened culturally in young adults or adults’ childhood as a culture a decade, a generation ago? What do you think is going on? Or has it always been there, but we just haven’t talked about it as much?

Israa (23:32.974)
Yeah, I think there’s a couple of really important shifts that have happened in the last 25 years. The biggest being the advent of internet. And obviously, like one of the m

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Handling Anxiety & Conflict in Kids (and Humans!) with Connection with NYT Bestselling Author Alyssa Blask Campbell [Episode 1013]

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Alyssa Trask Campbell Summary: In this episode, Kimberly and Alyssa Black Campbell discuss her journey as a parenting expert and author, focusing on the emotional landscape of parenting. She emphasizes the importance of understanding emotions, connection, and the needs behind children’s behaviors. The discussion covers various topics including self-regulation, co-regulation, the significance of creating safe spaces for communication, and navigating challenges like lying and bullying. Alyssa shares insights from her personal experiences and highlights the role of neuroscience in understanding children’s emotional needs. About Alyssa Blask Campbell Alyssa Blask Campbell is CEO of Seed & Sew, a platform that offers consultations and courses on emotional intelligence, as well as creating a modern parenting village. She has a master’s degree in early childhood education and is a leading expert in emotional development and travels the globe speaking on the topic. Her first book, Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, published in October 2023 from HarperCollins. Follow @seed.and.sew. Guest Resources: Website: Seed & Sew Book: Big Kids, Bigger Feelings: Navigating Defiance, Meltdowns, Anxiety to Raise Confident, Connected Kids Episode Sponsors: LMNT OFFER: Right now, for my listeners LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD. That’s 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT any LMNT drink mix purchase. This deal is only available through my link so. Also try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. USE LINK: DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD ANIMA MUNDI OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS PLANT-POWERED protein blend, infused with real vanilla and harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Parenting and Emotions02:48 Understanding Emotions in Parenting06:01 The Role of Connection in Parenting08:50 Identifying Needs Behind Behaviors12:09 Navigating Punishment and Connection14:48 The Importance of Self-Regulation17:51 Co-Regulation and Emotional Intelligence21:09 Addressing Lying and Trust23:47 Creating a Safe Space for Sharing27:00 Understanding Fear and Vulnerability29:45 The Impact of Trauma on Parenting32:59 Conclusion and Resources SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Welcome to the Feel Good Podcast, which is all about heart-led living and wellness. When we awaken the power of our hearts and let that guide us through our daily choices and decisions, through our four cornerstones, food, body, emotional well-being, and spiritual growth, we will experience the most incredible results and create more vitality, health, strength, peace, abundance, and love in our lives. I am your host, Kimberly Snyder, New York Times bestselling author, founder of Solluna, creator of the research-based Heart Aligned Meditation, wellness expert, nutritionist, and international speaker. I am passionate about supporting you on your unique heart and wellness journey. For more information on todays show please go to mysolluna.com for show notes and links. Let’s get started. Speaker 1 (01:29.13)So thank you so much for being here with us today and congrats on your new book. This is your second one. Speaker 2 (01:30.73) Yeah, yeah, my first one, Tiny Human’s Big Emotions came out in 2023. I was like 32 weeks pregnant when that one published, was a whirlwind. Wow. Yeah, that one hit the New York Times bestseller list, which was exciting. Yeah. And then a few weeks after it published, was doing well. Our editor reached out and was like, Alyssa, will you write another book? I was like, actually, I just need a nap. I’m so tired. And so I turned to Rachel, who I’ve worked with, had the privilege of working with now for seven years. And she works with me at my company. And I asked her she would write this bad boy with me. And she said, yeah. So we were able to do it. Well, I think this is so great because many of us are parents in the community or are thinking about being parents in the future or even not. feel like parenting books help us understand ourselves. And I can say as a parent, there’s been this incredible experience of feeling like I’m reparenting myself. And most of us are not learned. You we don’t learn. to handle emotions, have tools as you talk about in your book. And I went through this period of this, where it’s like, hmm, you know, it just felt a little sad and I had to process that. But I also think we’re given the, you know, the childhoods that were meant to be given. But I feel like this is, you know, this is big stuff we’re talking about here. Yeah, people often say they like come for their kids, but they stay for themselves. That so much of this work. We say if you have a nervous system like this works for you. We are really just talking about neuroscience and what it’s like to be a human on planet Earth and be in relationship with other humans. And man, it’s doozy sometimes. Yeah. Speaker 1 (02:55.63)Yeah, and I like how you talk about upfront. It’s not about trying to shield ourselves or our children from hardships because you know my nine-year-old now I can see him being more self-conscious about what he wears to school and Then he told me that there was a child like in one of the older grades who kind of made fun of his dog man sure now he won’t wear it and it just brings up stuff and It’s a lot like all the layers of kind of reliving what we’ve been through as parents. 100%. And I find for myself as a parent, there’s nothing harder than just watching your child experience something hard, like being made fun of, feeling left out, feeling that shame or embarrassment. And knowing that it’s not our job to take it away, but instead to be with them through those hard things to let them know that they can navigate this and survive it. It’s so hard. to do in practice as a parent is allowing it. Well, I’m not sure that all of us were even raised with parents that were aware that there was hardship. I wasn’t. I’m not just blaming my parents or anything. just I don’t think that’s how they were raised either. So I just know that there was a lot of things that I pushed down because I couldn’t handle them. Speaker 1 (04:26.614)And I think that’s ultimately why I turned to certain things like bulimia and eating disorders. I couldn’t digest life. And, you know, as adults, we continue to learn and grow and pass on, you know, more tools to our children. Totally, and we’re not gonna heal all the things and that’s okay too. I think of my friend, Dr. Linietta Willis, she’s an intergenerational trauma therapist. And she talks about our legacy blessings and our legacy burdens. And our legacy blessings are those things that we wanna pass on, that we inherited and that we want to pass on to our children in the next gen. And our legacy burdens are those things that maybe we don’t want to pass on, but also knowing that we’re not going to heal all the burdens, that some of them will get passed on and that’s okay. We get to give our kids the tools and the outlets to continue to heal and process. Yeah Speaker 1 (05:24.078)Well, I love how, and we’ll get into some of the more specific tools you talk about, but there’s a underlying theme of connection, which is, you know, in my work with the heart and just being connected to self and always, even if we’re not perfect parents, if we can stay empathetic, we can be connected. Our children will really feel that. 100%. And when we’re talking about different topics in big kids in this book, we talk about a number of different topics, but you’re right, the through line is not it. The goal isn’t to say, Hey, say this script at this time, or say these exact words or do this exact thing. The through line for us is how do you maintain connection and just stay in relationship with each other and recognizing that Yeah. Speaker 2 (06:13.336)Sometimes relationship is messy and hard and sometimes it feels good and easy and you’re not failing if you’re in conflict in relationship or you’re in the messy hard parts. That’s just a part of being in relationship with each other. Right. Well, you know, as you say, these tiny humans and then middle childhood, there’s different things happening on in their brain and their prefrontal cortex and the way that they process information. So I want to ask you as a parent, you know, some real questions. And then of course, it will illustrate some of the information that you share in big kids, bigger, bigger feelings. either you or Rachel use an example where, obviously paraphrasing here, but I think it was one of the daughters. was teasing the sibling. then the mama, which was you, Rachel, said, well, no screen time tomorrow, if you remember this. And I think as a parent, sometimes we see behaviors in our children. And in our family dynamic, our older son, who’s four years older than our younger son, who’s now five, sometimes he’ll take his choice because he can, and he’s bigger, or he’ll do things. And as hard as a parent, like we don’t know. Sometimes you wanna say, because my kids don’t get screen time except on the weekends. So sometimes I’ll say something, well, next Saturday you’re not gonna get your 30 minutes of screen time. like you said, it’s punishment, give, take, but sometimes you don’t know what else to do. Totally, yeah. Well, and that’s real and a part of just being a human on planet Earth too, that you’re not always gonna in the moment have the answers. So giving ourselves grace is so key here too. But in an ideal world, what we’re looking at is trying to identify, we get to be like a detective and see what’s the need that’s driving this behavior. So when your older son comes and takes that toy from his younger son, is it a need for connection? Speaker 2 (08:08.768)Is he really trying to connect or engage or get somebody’s attention, which is a connection? You get so much attention though. Some of our kids, it’s like a leaky cup. It can feel like a leaky cup for connection. I have a high connection seeker. My daughter’s a high connection seeker. And it can feel like there’s not enough connection in the world that will be enough for her. And my son is not a high connection seeker. It’s almost like it feels easier to fill his connection cup. But also for him, his sensory needs are more demanding than hers. we all just have our own little blueprint walking through this world. But when we can look at what is the need driving the behavior and we break these down into two categories. We have sensory needs and we talk about the nervous system, the nine sensory systems which we can get into. But when we’re looking at that, we’re really looking at are they under stimulated or overstimulated? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Do they need to move their body? Do they need a break from stim? They need to chill. Right, okay. That’s more easier to decode in a way. Speaker 2 (09:11.822)For a lot of us, we grew up in cultures where sensory needs were seen as needs. Food, water, movement, were seen as needs. And connection needs were often seen as wants. It was like attention-seeking behavior, and that was a negative thing. And it wasn’t seen as, you need attention, that you have this need for inclusion or belonging or knowing that you’re loved or worthy or valued. so for a lot of us, the connection needs can actually be quite triggering. where it can feel like, my gosh, this kid’s so needy. They need so much. And that’s our own bias coming up into play and being able to recognize that is half the battle. And then really being able to see like, okay, this is a need for connection. And maybe I just spent a bunch of time connecting with this kiddo and maybe they’re a high connection needs kid. And so what are the outlets for that? Great. Speaker 2 (10:07.154)And we give some examples in the book. And I was actually, was just at an event down in LA where we were, I was met with a group of a hundred moms and we were talking about exactly this. Like what are ways that we can help our kids? Like if I can’t give them more connection in this moment, I’m cooking dinner or I’m trying to do something. What are outlets for that? And we have things like journaling back and forth or being able to call a friend and chat with them on the phone or. FaceTime a grandparent or a cousin or a friend or an aunt or uncle and find ways to have that outlet that’s not always directly from you as the parent or maybe even from the sibling who might have lower connection needs and kind of needs a break to be by themselves for a little bit. Right. Okay. So would you say as a parenting expert, Alyssa, punishment or taking things away doesn’t really work? It just doesn’t solve the problem. What we’re going to do is we’re responding to the behavior on the surface. As long as we’re not meeting that need, you’re going to keep seeing new behaviors pop up because the need doesn’t go away. Right? In the same way that if you had like a baby who was hungry, you could bounce them and shush them all day long, but until you feed them, they’re not going to stop crying because they’re hungry. And if we have a child who needs to move their body or a child who needs to connect, we might put out the fires on the surface, but until we meet that need, you’re just gonna see new ones pop up. Speaker 1 (11:40.226)Do you think that there’s some children in the way that they’re, you know, finding their way in the world? Like my older son is very mischievous, for example. Slime in my farm boots and he thinks it’s hilarious and he laughs like he’s always… Pranks like he loves it. And he just thinks it’s hilarious. And he gets so much attention. Again, like always, all the time. Do you feel like maybe some of this behavior is, you he wants his… He would. Speaker 2 (11:54.888)Such a connection seeker. Speaker 1 (12:09.57)get a rise out of his brother and. really from a place of connection. I want your attention. want you to notice me. brother. From anybody, right? Our high connection seekers, they’ll seek it out anywhere. we can help them identify that. I would say things like, that was a silly prank that you did, or that was silly joke. Did you want me to laugh? Were you trying to connect with me and help kind of bridge that awareness for them of when you’re doing these things, it’s because you want to connect. That’s how we help build their awareness of what is my need. So then when they grow up in the world, they can move through the world knowing, when I feel this way, it’s because I’m hungry. When I feel that way, it’s because I’m tired. When I feel this way, I need to move my body. When I’m doing these things, it’s because I need to connect with somebody, because I need to feel that sense of connection and belong. you Speaker 1 (13:07.278)As many of you know, I’ve been drinking our beloved Power Protein Smoothie Community Recipe for many years. And I do this day to day as a great way to get energizing protein into my day without feeling too heavy. Usually I drink it in the early or mid afternoons. And lately for the protein, I’ve been using the most pure, delicious vanilla chai plant-based protein blend that I want to share with you by Anima Mundi. This protein is made from pumpkin seeds, brown rice, sacha inchi, and pea, and it contains adaptogens like astralagus, ashwagandha, and aluthero, which all have been known to help support recovery, enhance performance, and help the body adapt to everyday stress. It also has digestion-boosting warming ingredients. You know we love that, like cardamom, cinnamon, and ginger. This protein tastes delicious and there’s a subtle sweetness to it which comes from the vanilla and the monk fruit. It’s a way to deeply nourish your cells with amino acids, complete plant-based protein. To get this delicious plant-based blend, please go to anemamundiherbals.com and use code Kim20 to get 20 % off your purchase. Again, we’re talking about the amazing vanilla chai protein powder. That’s anemomundierbals.com code Kim20, A-N-I-M-A-M-U-N-D-I-H-E-R-B-A-L-S.com code Kim20 to get 20 % off your purchase. In a world that is constantly promoting health fads and quick fixes, we can never get past the importance of the basics, such as creating optimal digestion, eating whole foods, and hydration. Yes, hydration. When we are optimally hydrated, our skin glows and is nourished, and it greatly helps us avoid headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness. Besides water, we need electrolytes, which need to be replenished like probiotics. Every morning in my room temperature water that I drink first thing, Speaker 1 (15:27.99)I add a packet of Element electrolytes, usually the watermelon or raspberry flavors, which contain a science-backed mix of magnesium, potassium, and sodium. Element contains no sugar or artificial colors or fillers. I highly recommend that you also incorporate electrolytes into your routine as well to optimize your hydration, which your body, mind, and heart will greatly benefit from. And for now, our amazing community listeners, We’ll get a free sample pack with any element drink mix at www.drinkelement.com slash feel good. That’s eight single serving packets for free with any element drink mix purchase. Please go to www.drinkelement.com slash feel good. That’s www.drinklmnt.com slash feel good. Also check out the new element sparkling, which is a sparkly, fizzy electrolyte water if you love fizzy drinks. Speaker 1 (16:34.958)I’ll just tell you a fear as a parent hearing this is, again, he gets so much attention. Again, everybody says it, right? I pay so much attention to E. So I guess my fear is if he’s still wanting more, what if when he grows up, he gets into unhealthy relationships or he just always has to be in a relationship because of that. I want to reframe, like, you’re looking at intimate relationships. I see most often with our high connection seekers, they often actually seek it out even much outside of intimate relationships in friendships and in other spaces where, like, they might be the human who corrals kids to, like, all get together and play a game or they can often be, like, leaders in a pack where they… are so many outlets for connection that it’s not just an intimate one-to-one relationship. There are so many avenues for it. And as they continue to grow, they’ll find places to connect in different ways to make that happen. And we can support them along the way. But these are humans who it’s a superpower and we need them in this world. My daughter is like this. She is a high connection seeker. She walks into a room of 100 people she doesn’t know. And she’s like, my God, yes, 100 new friends. She’s 20 months. And she’s four? my gosh. and do you think that correlates with being an extrovert? Yeah, a lot of way. Speaker 2 (18:00.494)A lot of our high connection seeking kiddos are also extroverted. You a little bit have to be because it’s going to fill that cup, right? That like when you’re in that, although I just had a kid pop into my head who I when I was teaching and he was five years old and he had high connection needs, but he was an introvert and he would seek out more one to one like peer connection connection for me as a teacher. But he would look forward in those kind of smaller groups. activities and avenues, but he would glom on to like other kids and just want to be near them and want to talk to them and want to share and yada yada. But it was like he had one or two good friends in each space. He wasn’t like, I want to hang out with everyone in the class. Well, so there’s natural extroverts, introverts, connectors, like you said. How do you think this relates to, and you know, this is sort of on a spiritual level and in yogic traditions, you talk about the true self and self connection, which is self-effulgence and fulfilling and being so connected to the love inside that you wanna share it with people, but you’re not needing it. Yeah, I think that we’re, I’m going to pull in the like neuroscience and too. When we’re looking at this, I want to recognize that there’s not a human on the planet where there’s a one size fits all. Right? all of us, our nervous systems operate differently in the way that we integrate stimuli, the way that we integrate the world around us and make sense of it is different for all of us. And for some kids, they are their superpowers. I can noticing the details. or they know if something moves in their environment. They can get really dysregulated by like piles or clutter or things like that because they’re super attuned to the visual stimuli in their space. Some humans who sound, they’re really aware of the sounds in their environment and they can get really overstimulated by sound, especially if there’s competing sounds happening. Some kids who notice the details of how clothing feels in a heightened way. It’s too itchy, it’s too tight, it’s too something. Speaker 2 (20:02.378)And I look at these as superpowers, that they’re really good at noticing, they’re very attuned to those senses. And there are some humans who aren’t as attuned, and for them, can, it then appears as though they can maybe be more easygoing or they can move through the world differently, because their brain isn’t so hyper-focused on like, my gosh, what is that noise? I can’t stop hearing that clicking sound in the background and kind of tuning into those things in different ways. And so when we’re looking at the integration of all of that stimuli. We go through the nine senses in the book and outline it. But I think it’s really important in then saying like how you integrate them then determines how you show up in the world and what you need from the world around you based on how your nervous system is integrating that stimuli, because it’s going to find kind of homeostasis and regulation in different ways based on your unique nervous system. Does that make sense? It does to me. It sounds a little complicated to explain to a child. for sure. I’m going to break it down in different words to Yeah, to a kid. we this so the bulk of the work that we do at Seed is in school systems. I work in schools, elementary, middle schools, and then in childcare programs. And we teach teachers like how to talk to kids about this. How do you teach them about their nervous system? Totally. Well, there’s this idea of self-regulation even is something I think we need to really break down that and self-regulation. Speaker 2 (21:32.404)You teach self-regulation through co-regulation and self-regulation isn’t one size fits all. Wait, so say that again for a moment. mean co-regulation, you regulate yourself and then you’re in the space and then… You know, it’s like goosebumps. It’s almost like the science of heart coherence. Well, our hearts are giving off a magnetic field that’s 100 times stronger than the brain. So when we’re more emotionally calm, you talk about emotional intelligence and the more coherent, our heart rhythms are smooth and our… borrowing your comms. Speaker 2 (21:52.108)Not anymore. Speaker 1 (22:06.306)Brains are nervous, everything’s in sync. People around you feel that. Totally. So as we calm ourselves, we can calm our children more. That’s right. I think of it like the difference between a thermometer and a thermostat. A thermometer is just going to read the temperature of the room, you’re going to join it. A thermostat sets that temperature. And in order to set that temperature, you have to be mindful of your own regulation. So often we want kids to regulate for us. We want them to get calm for us when we can’t. Right. Yeah, I see parents who are literally screaming in public. Yeah. And they’re like, you calm down. We’re at the playground and I heard this, this mom didn’t know we were there. We were in the bathroom and she was like talking to her two girls and then me and my younger son came out and she was like embarrassed. I mean, I felt bad for her because obviously she didn’t want, no one wants to be that person. Nobody wants to be in that state where their body feels so out of control that you’re like, need the humans around me to change their behavior so I can feel in control. And so so much, that’s why I said so many folks, they come for the kids, but stay for themselves that we dive into what is, how does your nervous system work? What does it look like to learn how to build your own self-awareness and self-regulation so that we can then navigate co-regulation with our kids so that Speaker 2 (23:28.098)when our kid comes in and they roll their eyes and they slam the door and they give a sass or the sarcasm or whatever, that we can be the calm force in that moment. And it doesn’t mean I don’t hold boundaries. It doesn’t mean that any behavior is allowed. It does mean that I am really working on, okay, how do I calm my body so that I can respond with intention instead of react from a place of dysregulation. So let’s play this out for any mamas out there who have teenagers or getting close to teenagers, not there yet. But although I’ve seen some behavior from my nine-year-old defiance and disrespect, which you talk about in the book. Let’s say your teenager comes home and you say, or, hey, I’ll be the teenager. Well, it seems like something happened at school today. I’m fine. Yeah, I am here if you want to chat. Would you like space or do you want to talk about? Speaker 1 (24:30.862)Why are you so annoying? Why are you always trying to say that to me? I love you so much. I’m going to be cooking in the kitchen. If you want to come touch base, that’s where I’ll be That’s not a fun. Okay. Let’s do another one. Yeah. I mean, so it’s a center. You’re the center and you’re not trying to grab. Okay. I love it. I’m not taking the bait. Right? Like the bait is all, that would be me joining their energy. And I’m saying like, I’ve got you. I’m still calm in your storm. Okay, let’s do this one, which I have experienced where my son will call me by my first name and I don’t like it. Sure. Okay, so I’ll be the teenager tween, okay? Yeah. Comes home from school. Hey, Alyssa. Speaker 2 (25:15.544)Hey, did you want my attention? I heard you use my first name. Alisha? Yeah, it does sound like you want my attention. I’m here if you want to chat or hang. Lyssa, Lyssa! Yeah, come

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Understanding Toxic Productivity with Isra Nasir [Episode #963]

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