Using Heart-Based Connection in Building Healthy Relationships with Dr. Thema Bryant

This Week’s Episode:

In this enlightening conversation, Kimberly interviews Dr. Tamah Bryant, a renowned psychologist and author, about her new book ‘Matters of the Heart.’ They explore the significance of emotional connections, the journey of healing from trauma, and the importance of self-compassion. Dr. Tamah shares her personal experiences and insights on building healthy relationships, both romantic and platonic, and navigating workplace dynamics. They also speak about the significance of independence within relationships, the challenges of healing from infidelity, the depth of human connection, the power of vulnerability and the importance of being truthful with oneself and others.

About Dr. Thema Bryant

Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis is an associate professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, as well as an ordained minister in the AME Church. She is the 2015 awardee for the California Psychological Association Distinguished Scientist Award. She is also a past president of the Society for the Psychology of Women and a former American Psychological Association representative to the United Nations. She received the Distinguished Contributions to Psychology in the Public Service early career award.

She is director of the Culture and Trauma Research Lab at Pepperdine University and a past associate editor of the esteemed scientific journal Psychological Trauma. She is published in numerous peer-reviewed journals, she is author of the book, Thriving in the wake of trauma: A multicultural guide and she is co-editor of the books, Surviving Sexual Violence: A handbook of recovery and empowerment and Foundations of Resilience: Religion and Spirituality in Diverse Women’s Lives.

Dr. Thema has served as a media mental health consultant for numerous news programs, talk shows, and docu-series on network and cable television stations, as well as for NPR and print media. ESSENCE magazine named her among women who are shaping the world. A licensed clinical psychologist in the Los Angeles area, Dr. Bryant-Davis earned her doctorate from Duke University and completed her post-doctoral training at Harvard Medical Center. Her research focus areas include trauma psychology, ethnic minority women, oppression, coping, and spirituality.

Guest Resources

Book: Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love’

Website: https://drthema.com/

Episode Sponsors:

MAGIC MIND:

OFFER: Get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle with my link: https://magicmind.com/feelgoodpodjan
#magicmind #mentalwealth #mentalperformance

USE LINK: magicmind.com/feelgoodpodjan

LMNT:

OFFER: Right now, for my listeners LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD. That’s 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT any LMNT drink mix purchase.

USE LINK: DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Matters of the Heart
02:01 The Importance of Heartfelt Connections
05:08 Dr. Thema’s Journey to Healing and Trauma
10:01 Self-Compassion and Healing Self-Abandonment
14:59 Building Healthy Relationships
19:53 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
25:05 Embracing Change and Personal Growth
25:39 Navigating Relationships and Personal Growth
28:01 The Importance of Self-Reflection
31:35 Independence in Relationships
34:11 Healing from Infidelity
40:20 The Depth of Connection
42:58 Embracing Gentleness Over Harshness
45:40 Releasing Toxic Relationships

SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS

KIMBERLY’S BOOKS

Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart
The Beauty Detox Solution
Beauty Detox Foods
Beauty Detox Power
Radical Beauty
Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life
You Are More Than You Think You Are

OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY!

Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne

Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.925)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for my very special guest today. We have the honor of having Dr. Tamah Bryant, who is an associate professor of psychology and director of the Culture and Trauma Research Lab at Pepperdine University, making Dr. Tamah a neighbor of mine. And she is also a New York Times bestselling author. She has a new book out this week.

which is very close to my heart and it’s called Matters of the Heart, healing your relationship with yourself and those you love. Dr. Tama, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Dr. Thema (00:42.911)
Thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you do. It’s so beautiful the space that you hold and helping to share the knowledge. I love it.

Kimberly Snyder (00:52.161)
thank you, Dr. Tamah. When your book came across my desk and I saw the title, I mean, even I just said it, I started to get goosebumps. I said, here is another heart based sister who’s really coming and it’s such a beautiful cover. Those of you that are watching this on YouTube and of course we’ll link to it directly in the show notes at mysaloon.com where you can go and get Dr. Tamah’s book, is out now. It’s so exciting to be here with you. Launch week.

Dr. Thema (01:05.742)
Thank you.

Kimberly Snyder (01:19.053)
There’s so many things I want to ask you, but let’s go right to the title for a moment. Why matters of the heart? Sometimes it seems so obvious now for me, I love talking about the heart, but sometimes when we’re talking about relationships, it can be a little bit heady, it can be mental, can you start to get caught up in the thoughts and the drama. You bring it right back here.

Dr. Thema (01:28.034)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (01:35.31)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (01:38.733)
Hmm.

Dr. Thema (01:44.95)
Yes, absolutely. It’s so important because we can get caught up in our thoughts, the anxiety, the worry, the storytelling, the trying to predict what’s going to happen. And then we can disconnect from what our heart knows, what our heart feels.

and to honor our emotions. We’re in a season now where a lot of people can be very dismissive of feelings, but feelings are important points of information and it’s also part of our humanity. And so what are the things that move you? What are the things that awaken or liven you? And also what are the things that broke your heart? Like all of those pieces are central for our healing.

Kimberly Snyder (02:08.551)
voice.

Kimberly Snyder (02:28.049)
Dr. Tamah, I’m always interested in someone’s journey. What brought you to be a relationship expert and to talk about trauma? You know, was reading, I was thinking, well, it could go either way, right? It could be that she came from this, you know, idealistic childhood and she came from this really secure place and she wanted to share that. Or it could be similar to my path, which is the healer’s journey where there was a lot of struggle and there was a lot of growth. And through that struggle, you’re inspired to share.

Dr. Thema (02:47.502)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And for me, it’s a both and. So the book is dedicated to my mom and she transitioned last year as a result of breast cancer. But she loved deeply. Like she, you know, we, my brother and I would go out into the world. It’s a foundation. Like when you have that secure sense of like somebody in your life really loves you and accepts you. And it really touched me.

Kimberly Snyder (02:57.657)
Okay.

Dr. Thema (03:22.912)
One of my friends got to meet my mother and her response to just, my mother’s very affirming and all of that good stuff. And so my friend said, I wonder who I would be if I had your mother. And I was like.

Kimberly Snyder (03:34.845)
Oh, I was going say Dr. Tamie, you’re one of the lucky ones. My mother loved me so much. She’s also transitioned, but it was a different type of, you know, she was an immigrant from the Philippines. was trying to strive, always working and loved in her way. Sometimes, you know, as a child, you misinterpret it for neglect or not being seen.

Dr. Thema (03:38.593)
Right.

Dr. Thema (03:43.138)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Thema (03:55.764)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it is challenging. And then we also get to see their life’s journey. My mom grew up one of 10 in the projects of New York. Her…

My grandfather was a World War II veteran who came back with PTSD. you know, that trauma piece is there, intergenerational trauma. And then I focused on my first book, my first public book, Homecoming, on healing trauma because I am a trauma survivor. multiple, growing up initially in Baltimore, while it’s beautiful culturally and all those things, it also has high rates of community violence. And then my family, we’re African-American,

Kimberly Snyder (04:14.589)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (04:39.736)
American, but we moved to Liberia, West Africa, which was wonderful initially to see all of these people in positions of power that look like you. So it really built your confidence. And then unfortunately, our second year there, there was a civil war. So, you know, we had to be evacuated. I went to college at Duke University and then one summer when I went home to Baltimore, I was sexually assaulted. So

Kimberly Snyder (04:51.43)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (05:08.381)
Wow.

Dr. Thema (05:09.302)
When I do the trauma recovery work, you know, it’s not only what I have read in books, but to live it and to know that it’s possible to reclaim yourself and that we’re all deserving of that.

Kimberly Snyder (05:23.293)
the second you came on, you know, for me, it’s very much about energy. And there’s this lightness in you. And so one of the things that is really important to me when I’m having these conversations is someone’s embodying what they’re talking about. Cause there’s a real disconnect sometimes if someone’s teaching something, but they’re not actually in that energy or on the journey and being honest about it. Right. So I love.

Dr. Thema (05:28.386)
Yes.

Noooo

Dr. Thema (05:40.714)
Ugh, yes.

Dr. Thema (05:50.242)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (05:51.257)
Thank you for sharing that and also not just the words, actually showing that you really can get to a place of lightness no matter what we’ve been through because we all have different experiences. We don’t get to pick our childhood. We don’t get to pick, you know, these challenges that come to us.

Dr. Thema (05:59.52)
Yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. And thank you for that. I think it is so important for us to live it and embody it. had to have a confrontation with myself moment when I first started practicing as a psychologist is I noticed this pattern where I was always skipping lunch because I would like frame it to myself of like someone else’s healing or a sandwich.

Kimberly Snyder (06:27.645)
Dr. Thema (06:33.004)
Right now. And of course you’re going to be like, I don’t need to say, and so then one day I was in session with a client and I was talking to her so passionately about how she should take care of herself. And in the middle of this like heartfelt speech, my stomach starts growling and I’m like, my goodness. And so I had to like confront myself to say, do I just want to teach it or do I want to live it? Right. And so, yeah, I want to live it.

Kimberly Snyder (06:59.025)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (07:03.613)
How has it been for you or you get, it sounds like you really love working with clients. And then there’s this other passion writing books and then sharing with people that you don’t get to have that one-on-one relationship with.

Dr. Thema (07:16.022)
Yeah, I have so loved writing for the public. I had a number of books previously that were more textbooks for people who are training to become mental health professionals. And I teach at Pepperdine University. And those books are kind of like written in jargon. They’re very technical. They’re very expensive. And so I was excited to say, how can I bring information?

to people, like to remove those barriers and make it accessible and affordable. So it has been such a delight hearing from people, not only from all walks of life, but even other countries. My first book, Homecoming, was translated to Turkish and Portuguese. And I’m like, So it’s beautiful. I love sharing.

Kimberly Snyder (08:00.508)
Europe.

Kimberly Snyder (08:06.683)
That’s amazing. Well, and going back to the book for a moment here, what I loved about it, you know, in context with what we were talking about, we don’t always have so-called perfect, really. I mean, no one really has a perfect childhood in any way. And I’ve read a lot of relationship books come across my desk. And one of the things that seems, you know, obvious for many of us that have been on the journey, but not so obvious because it’s not in all the books, is to start with that relationship with yourself.

Dr. Thema (08:35.628)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (08:36.271)
and to really claim that when we start to see ourselves as whole, when we start to feel that deserving, only then do we start to have relationships. So your first section is your relationship with yourself, enhancing self-compassion is the first chapter. And then secondly, healing self-abandonment and self-neglect and people-pleasing, healing insecurity and unworthiness. So let’s start from the beginning. The very first section is about

Dr. Thema (09:02.402)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. That’s right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (09:05.533)
compassion and turning it inward. Because isn’t it so easy to care for loved ones and friends and to be really harsh with ourselves?

Dr. Thema (09:13.634)
That’s right. we can judge ourselves harshly because often we’re judging our past self based on what our present self knows. Right? It’s like, I should have known better. I should have done this or I should have done that. And so, you know, we do that not only for our younger adult selves, but even our childhood selves, we can say all the shoulds. And so giving ourselves grace, forgiving ourselves.

Kimberly Snyder (09:23.057)
Right.

Dr. Thema (09:40.186)
And I like to say if you go far back enough in your story, what you did made sense. Right? It did. It came from somewhere. so, yeah, that’s right. And it doesn’t mean that you’re stuck. I can make a new choice now, but I’m not going to keep punishing myself.

Kimberly Snyder (09:47.077)
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Do the best you could at that time.

Dr. Thema (10:01.344)
or settling because I feel my imperfections disqualify me from joy or from love or from success. We’re not disqualified. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (10:12.507)
Wow. Well then, and what do you mean by self abandonment? So I’ll say personally, doctor, when I heard this term and I didn’t really know what it meant. And I was like, I’m just kind of plowing forward. But a lot of us do abandon ourselves that we have and back to feelings and emotions. Can you explain it more?

Dr. Thema (10:16.226)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (10:29.761)
Yes.

Dr. Thema (10:34.282)
Yeah, it is self neglect, leaving ourselves behind. So it could be, you know, a workaholic imperfectionist. So now I’m not taking care of myself because I’m just driven to attain, attain, attain, but I’m neglecting my own rest and my own health. It could be abandoning myself socially where I silence myself, I censor myself. I pretend to be

who I think other people will like or accept or choose. And so then I’m having to perform and they don’t even really know me. So it’s like, is this really a friendship? Is this really intimacy if I’m pretending?

Kimberly Snyder (11:17.723)
Right, right. What do you say to clients or let’s say readers, it’s just too hard for them to see some of this work around self-relations. So then they’re constantly in the same pattern of relationships and they’re constantly blaming our, is this person is this, how do you keep bringing it back to this whole section in your book, self-work?

Dr. Thema (11:35.655)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So one, the first thing I want to say about that is if you are feeling lonely, I don’t subscribe to the idea that you just don’t love yourself. I think those are two different things and people shame a lot of people for feeling lonely and saying like, if you just loved yourself more, you wouldn’t feel that. No, you can love yourself and still desire companionship.

Kimberly Snyder (11:51.834)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (12:01.389)
Right? You can love yourself and still want connection. but then it’s about while I am on the journey that my love of myself can guide my choices. So, you know, for example, I remember when I was younger, I had a couple of people who were interested in me. None of them were really worthwhile, but I thought I had to pick the best of the bad choices. Right.

Kimberly Snyder (12:01.991)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (12:14.599)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (12:28.701)
Bye!

Dr. Thema (12:29.59)
So then it’s like, but this is the best one. It’s like, I have to say none of the above, right? I choose none of the above because I care for myself enough that I’m willing to wait. I’m willing to enjoy my own company. I’m willing to cultivate my life until someone is actually more of a blessing than a heartburn.

Kimberly Snyder (12:35.837)
I’m ready.

Kimberly Snyder (12:56.653)
So Dr. Tamah, can say personally, when I look back in high school and, you know, middle school, even high school, college, I was always in a relationship. And there sort of this not okay being by myself. And how do we build that confidence? Someone’s listening to this and they’re like, it’s great that you chose Dr. Tamah, but you had a really secure childhood. What are some of the tools or ways in which we can start to restore that wholeness?

Dr. Thema (13:05.303)
Hmm.

Dr. Thema (13:25.07)
Yeah, so it is to recognize What this other path and pattern has cost me? So I’m sabotaging myself Right. I’m sabotaging myself in my choosing and not only in my choosing but in how long I stay in toxic unhealthy circumstances and so I desire

Kimberly Snyder (13:34.044)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (13:52.138)
a better life. And I would say, you know, therapy to me is an act of faith or, using self-help books. It’s an act of faith. It is, I’m believing that I can grow into someone I have never been. Right. So I’m willing to take that risk because this other way of being is not serving me. It’s not working for me. It’s, it’s harmful. So to count the cost.

Kimberly Snyder (14:06.877)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (14:15.805)
Right.

Dr. Thema (14:18.08)
Right? Because if it’s not costing you anything, then you would say, why do I need to change? So can you see what the patterns and cycles have cost you?

Kimberly Snyder (14:29.563)
Yes. And for me, Dr. Tamah, was this, when you were talking about seeing this vision, for me, it’s really getting present. So when I’m in my heart and I’m right here, because I’m in the mind, I’m like, no, like, this is great. And I, it’s fun, I’m doing this. You don’t really see, but when we can start to get really still and really here, with self-compassion. this is what I’ve been acting out, right? So that.

Dr. Thema (14:50.349)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (14:55.899)
Deep self-awareness, like you said, is such an important part of the transformation process.

Dr. Thema (14:59.531)
Right. And checking in with yourself in the presence of other people. Right. Some people feel good to our nervous system, you know, feels good to your heart. We call it co-regulation. Some people, if you just look at your phone and they’re calling, it either excites you or it soothes you. You walk in and you see them. There’s a lightness, a lifting that happens. And then there are some people that we dread. So let me choose more.

Kimberly Snyder (15:04.988)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (15:11.62)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (15:22.62)
Nice!

Yes.

Dr. Thema (15:28.514)
to spend time with those who lighten me instead of those who weigh me down.

Kimberly Snyder (15:33.853)
We’ll see right there is such an important part of self-care because sometimes, especially as women, we’re led to believe you’re supposed to be nice to everyone. You’re supposed to like everyone, like make this work out. In your work, doctor, we’re all in the process of healing, right? And of course, we’re kindness, tolerance, but along the journey, we do have, we have to give ourselves that permission to nurture our environment. That’s what important to say.

Dr. Thema (15:42.286)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (15:59.468)
Yes, yeah, you know, it is, it’s very true. We sometimes have a messiah complex where we actually convince ourselves that it’s our job to rescue everyone. And then we pick friendship circles, we create friendship circles or romantic relationships where we’re always the strong one. And we never pick like iron sharpens iron.

Kimberly Snyder (16:08.029)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (16:25.186)
You know, like I love to be in the presence of gifted, smart, talented women where like I don’t have to be the only thing shining in the room, right? It’s inspiring. It’s beautiful to see people living their dreams. And so for us to be intentional and again, that self-awareness of have I created friendships that are all one sided?

Kimberly Snyder (16:36.54)
Okay.

Dr. Thema (16:53.698)
And sometimes we blame the other people and say, they’re selfish, they’re this, they don’t show up for me. Is there anything that I’m doing that contributes to that cycle? So sometimes it’s when I’m struggling, I isolate myself and hide so people never know that I’m in need. You know, I only show up when I’m shiny and can help everybody else. And so to be more authentic, more sincere, and to let people love you.

If I’m always on, I’m not actually in a loving mutual relationship.

Kimberly Snyder (17:27.641)
And similarly to romantic relationships, as they start to beware and go through some of your work in the book, you may level up or sometimes you kind of have to break up with some friends and then find new friends. You realize something really is toxic or maybe it has been one-sided. That’s scary for people.

Dr. Thema (17:36.834)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Thema (17:41.483)
Thank

Dr. Thema (17:46.69)
Mm-hmm. understandably so. We all like what’s familiar and what’s comfortable. Even though it’s dysfunctional, it could be just predictable of like, know how they are. you know, and so we put loyalty over our own peace of mind. So I’m going to be loyal to someone who’s breaking my spirit because I value loyalty.

but do I also value myself? And to set people free, there may be other people that are more aligned with them. So you all are spending all your time together and it’s not actually authentic or aligned. So it’s not only setting yourself free to find what aligns with you, but also letting them be free to find people who think like them and want to behave like them. Yeah, there’s freedom in that.

Kimberly Snyder (18:45.689)
As you’re speaking, doctor, I can think of examples, you in the book, you talk about friendships, you talk about romantic relationships, which I think a lot of people are drawn towards. This also carries over in work relationships. I can think about, you know, just situations, around me and in my husband’s company, just things you see where you’re like, there’s a dynamic here. It’s like some kind of like trauma, magnitude, like there’s just things happening and,

Dr. Thema (18:56.622)
us.

Dr. Thema (19:04.663)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Kimberly Snyder (19:13.743)
Sometimes you see it and the other person doesn’t. And that’s part of this journey as well as, you know, letting people unfold and giving them tools, but you can’t force people to see. Sometimes you see easier than you see yourself too.

Dr. Thema (19:16.856)
Thank you.

you

Dr. Thema (19:26.785)
Mm-hmm. Right. That’s very true. I’m glad you brought up workplace relationships because sometimes we think, I’m not here to make friends. I’m just here to work. Well, it’s still a large part of your day. They don’t have to be the best of friends, but the most of your hours are spent there. And so how do you want to treat people? How do you want to be treated? What could make things better?

Kimberly Snyder (19:41.213)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (19:53.798)
and being intentional about that. Sometimes we’re just into long suffering because this is another thing. I’m like not only not breaking up with friends or romantic partners, but not leaving jobs that are dead end jobs. And we’ve been there for years and we complain about it all the time. And I remember I was talking to someone who was complaining about her job. And I said, you know, have you ever thought about looking for something else? And she says,

Kimberly Snyder (20:08.049)
right?

Dr. Thema (20:22.798)
I only have 10 years till retirement. 10 years! That’s a long time! That’s a long time.

Kimberly Snyder (20:28.967)
my. And the flip side, Dr. Tamer is not letting someone go because there’s like a comfortability and an attachment. And then you’re kind of in this, you know, again, the deserving of the full potential that could be at your workplace.

Dr. Thema (20:40.27)
Yes. Right. Right. So then we’re looking for in any of these relationships, you know, have we tried to bring about change? So definitely, you know, communicate, express our concerns, our disappointments, our needs, the way we would like to be spoken to or the way we would like issues to be handled.

and see if there is the possibility of change or growth. Sometimes it is. Sometimes we have an issue and people hadn’t thought of it. It had not occurred to them. So sometimes people are genuinely surprised because that’s just not how they operate. And then other times, we’ve all experienced giving someone feedback and it was pointless, right? That nothing changed and they may have even gotten angry about the feedback.

Kimberly Snyder (21:32.089)
Also, there’s natural conflict in any sort of challenges we can say, can you tell us the line? What really are some of the characteristics when you know you’re in a healthy work relationship, romantic relationship, friendship, because it’s not gonna be smooth sailing all the time.

Dr. Thema (21:48.174)
Yes. A big indicator for us is to see how do we handle ruptures. There are going to be disagreements, there are going to be conflicts, but I can, they say you can disagree without being disagreeable. Do people go into bullying tactics? Are they then out to get you at the workplace? Are they taking your ideas or lying about you?

Kimberly Snyder (21:55.261)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (22:18.208)
So it’s the nature of what people are doing and then the possibility for change. And that has to be a desire from them, not us saying like, I’m going to change them. I’m going to win them over. You know, it’s like, how’s that working for you? Right? Do we see any signs of growth or progress or transformation, or are you just kind of beating y