Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dan Buettner Episode Summary: In this engaging episode, Kimberly Snyder welcomes back Dan Buettner, the renowned author and researcher known for his work on Blue Zones—regions where people live significantly longer, healthier lives. The conversation begins with a nostalgic reflection on their past interactions, leading into a discussion about the natural lifestyle that characterizes Blue Zones. Dan emphasizes the importance of gentle, low-intensity physical activity, such as gardening and cooking, as opposed to the conventional gym workouts many associate with health. He shares insights from his latest research, highlighting that longevity is not about expensive supplements but rather about simple, whole food diets rich in beans, grains, and local fruits. Dan addresses common misconceptions about protein intake, particularly for plant-based diets, reassuring listeners that a well-rounded plant-based diet can provide all necessary nutrients. He also shares practical tips for incorporating Blue Zone principles into daily life, such as cooking at home to control ingredients and costs. The episode wraps up with a focus on finding purpose and community connection, which are vital components of longevity, encouraging listeners to engage in volunteer work or community activities to enhance their sense of purpose and well-being. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections 03:07 The Blue Zones Lifestyle and Longevity 06:02 Plant-Based Diets and Nutritional Myths 08:58 Deliciousness and Cooking Techniques 12:07 Accessibility and Cost of Healthy Eating 15:06 Family and Community in Healthy Living 17:59 Culinary Traditions and Recipe Testing 21:04 Overcoming Cooking Barriers 22:27 Finding Purpose in Modern Society 27:06 Community Connections and Sharing 30:11 Eating Patterns and Intermittent Fasting 35:02 Protein Needs and Plant-Based Diets Dan Buettner Resources: Website: danbuettner.com Book: Blue Zones Kitchen: One Pot Meals: 100 Recipes to Live to 100 Social: IG: @danbuettner Podcast: The Dan Buettner Podcast Bio: Dan Buettner is an explorer, National Geographic Fellow, award-winning journalist, Netflix Host & Co-producer of the 3x Emmy Award winning: Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones, 5 x New York Times bestselling author, and 3 X Guinness World Record holder for distance cycling. Dan discovered the five places in the world—dubbed blue zones—where people lived the longest, healthiest lives and shared this information with the world. His books, The Blue Zones: Lessons for Living Longer from the People Who’ve Lived the Longest, Thrive: Finding Happiness the Blue Zones Way, The Blue Zones Solution: Eating and Living Like the World’s Healthiest People, and The Blue Zones of Happiness were all national bestsellers. EPISODE SPONSORS: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY Solluna Feel Good Digestive Enzymes OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger Simple Ways to Use the Power of Herbalism in Your Daily Life with Rachelle Robinette The Importance of Nitric Oxide and How to Optimize our Body’s Production of it with Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Heart Healthy, Plant-Based Eating with Dr. Jenneffer Pulapaka The Science of Longevity: Plaque Heart Scans, Cancer Screening, Glutathione & More with Dr. Julianna Lindsey Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:00.92) Dan, it's so great to have you back. Thank you so much for coming. I think this is the fourth time you've been on the show. Dan Buettner (00:08.527) I never feel like we've said enough and it's always such a great conversation. So glad to be back. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:16.814) Well, it's funny because it's early December as we record this. And a couple of days ago, Dan, I had a memory picture come up. You know how your phone feeds you these random pictures? It was from December 5th, 2019. And it was from your book launch party at Crossroads. And I was pregnant and I hadn't told anyone I was pregnant. But I remember when you signed my book, I told you. Dan Buettner (00:26.946) Yeah. Dan Buettner (00:35.475) my God, I remember that. Dan Buettner (00:45.222) I feel honored. And then I just kept it between me and my 800,000 Instagram followers. So we kept it really tight. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:55.21) Yeah, well, it's so I know you're in Miami and we were just chatting before the show about how since then, Dan, we've gotten this little piece of land and we grow cacao now on our farm. And how many times Dan we say as a family, I feel like I'm really living the Blue Zones lifestyle. the physical labor of working on the land. Here, you know, I try to go on walks every day to break up my work day before my kids come home from school. But just like I've seen in your Netflix series and in your books, I have a hand sawed down, I'm cutting scrub trees, I'm the trees to get the cacao pods. And there's something so Dan Buettner (01:28.715) I love it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:33.802) natural and it feels like whole being health to be in the land and be in nature. And I know you've seen that in a lot of these incredible Blue Zones communities. Dan Buettner (01:44.719) Not only seeing it, the evidence backs it up. I mean, we tend to think the road to longevity is pumping iron going into the gym. But in these blue zones where people manifestly live about 10 years longer, they're doing exactly what you do. They're moving naturally all day long. It's gentle, low intensity physical activity. And it's the type of movement our ancestors have done for tens of thousands of years. It's a... It's cutting things, it's cooking things, it's making things with our hands, it's walking, it's gardening. These are the activities that have optimized the human condition, physically speaking, for millennia. they're the things science will tell you will do the best job of getting you to a healthy age 90 or maybe even 100. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:38.444) Yeah. Well, going back to how it's been a few books since I, you know, since that memory picture came up and are you finding Dan, as you continue to study the blue zones, even more is being uncovered? I mean, these incredible communities weren't trying, like you said, to create all this longevity. was really part of their natural way of living. Or are you going deeper into these tried and true principles such as in your New book which focuses on one-pot meals. Dan Buettner (03:13.271) I've spent most of the last. 20 years working with cities, we get paid by insurance companies to try to incorporate community-wide nudges and defaults that help people mindlessly do the things that we know ladder up to more good years of life. meanwhile, an 84 billion dollar annual anti-aging industry has popped up and that industry has failed to produce even one pill, supplement, peptide, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:18.103) Yeah. Dan Buettner (03:45.703) stem cell, rapamycin metformin, none of them have been shown to stop reverse or even slow aging. So we're spending a lot of money experimenting on ourselves. Meanwhile, we know that eating a whole food, ideally plant-based diet is worth somewhere between 10 to 12 extra years of life expectancy. That's a meta-analysis that fouled over 10 million human beings for 30 years. So it's very hard to dispute them. By the way, that's peasant food. That's not super foods you see on the internet or, you know, some, some, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:21.644) Yeah. Dan Buettner (04:26.389) expensive supplement regimen. It's eating things like beans and grains and fruit, by the way, wild fruits that grow near you. The native Hawaiian diet, which was largely tubers and root vegetables and some fish, but a lot of fruit, but poi and taro, these are the things that fueled the Hawaiian Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:52.865) Yes. Dan Buettner (04:54.265) people for so many years. when Captain Cook arrived in Hawaii three centuries ago, he described them as fit, with beautiful teeth and great health and vitality. And they were largely disease free until our great gift of infectious disease. Most of those diseases originated in animals and then left to humans. And then we brought them to Hawaiians. I try to look for the diets that we know have helped humans thrive for for millennia. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:32.95) I feel like I get some particular, I would say scrutiny, Dan, because I'm plant-based mom, and my kids have been plant-based since conception. And I'll say my older son, who's nine now, is actually the tallest child in his class. Both my kids are exceptionally healthy. We never really have to go to the doctor except for those obligatory yearly or bi-yearly, at this point, appointments. And yet so many... moms in passing will say, well, aren't you worried about your kids getting calcium or protein? And I say, you know, they're really thriving. And, you know, some of the recipes that I love in here echo how we eat lots of bean and veggie soup, lots of black bean burgers, mean, foods that are really simple, but I've, my personal experience is my kids are exceptionally healthy being plant-based. I don't know that's something that people have asked you about as well. Dan Buettner (06:32.205) all the time and they're under the mistaken idea. Well, we've been marketed the idea that to be healthy, our kids need more protein and that is code for animal protein. But as you point out, plant-based protein is much healthier for us. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:40.344) Bye. Dan Buettner (06:53.087) And as long as you're getting your protein or amino acids from a number of sources, beans and grains and other vegetables, you're getting a whole protein. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:02.615) Yes. Dan Buettner (07:04.783) So that's number one, but number two, we're under this mistaken impression that we need more protein. And the average American, if you look at the CDC website, the average American gets about twice as much protein as they need. yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:22.27) No, it's crazy. Well, it's not just kids, Dan, as you know, it's being marketed as anti aging to have more protein. I mean, I have some of these longevity expert conversations and people are recommending a gram per body per pound of body weight like crazy numbers. And the only way people could achieve those is if they're focusing on protein bars and protein shakes, and now they're not having fiber. Now they're really not having whole foods. And it feels like, I don't know about you, but my first book was over 11 years ago now. And first there was this big discussion about protein, and then it felt like it died down, and now it feels huge again. It's like another big fad. Dan Buettner (08:07.0) Yeah. Well, we've seen it before. saw it with the Atkins diet and we saw it with the keto diet. You know, these diets get popular if they give permission for people to eat the crappy food they like to eat, which is bacon and sausage and hot dogs and hamburgers and, I can eat these and they're good for me. Well, people, people love to get permission to do naughty things. You know, what I've tried to do in the Blue Zone kitchen, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:20.63) Right. Dan Buettner (08:37.809) cookbooks. We were maniacally focused on deliciousness and I find that if you can if you can lead with deliciousness. Some people care about the environment and the fact that eating animal-based products is somewhere between 20 to 30 percent of our carbon footprint. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:42.838) Yes. Dan Buettner (08:58.293) Some people care about animals, but it's single digit percentages. I know you have a real soft spot for the pain and suffering of other sentient creatures. Some people kind of care about their health, but they don't care about it that much when they're hungry at lunchtime. What people really care about is deliciousness, which is why in this one pot, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:15.721) Right. Dan Buettner (09:20.591) cookbook that you have there, we reverse engineer deliciousness by working with Stanford to examine 650 recipes and find the patterns. What are the flavor combinations that make Americans go berserk and love? And it turns out it doesn't necessarily have to start with a piece of dead animal. It can just as easily start with a warm savory bowl of soup or a stew. what I learned, I'd say the biggest longevity secret I learned 20 years and studying people in the blue zones is how to make beans taste delicious. We're horrible at it in America. know, the Boston baked beans or refried beans are gross. But let me cook you a minestrone soup with cannellini beans and Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:51.18) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:07.138) Wait. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:16.355) Mmm. Dan Buettner (10:17.391) lentils and garbanzo and slow cook them with herbs and spices and the right combination of other vegetables and finish it with a beautiful extra virgin olive oil and top it with some nice fatty avocado. You'll be loving me up all day long. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:36.254) You know, I found that really interesting, Dan, you talk about these spiky flavor combinations. Can you explain a little bit what you mean by that? Dan Buettner (10:43.543) Yes, yes. This dates back to an experiment done with Oreos. And it turns out that our developer for Blue Zone's Kitchen, you know, we have a line of frozen food called Blue Zone Kitchen. And so she was in charge of whatever multinational does Oreo cookies and they tried to market Oreo cookies in Asia and Asians didn't like them. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:13.452) Mmm. Dan Buettner (11:13.805) because Asians tend to like really soft. But in America, this combination of a slightly bitter, crunchy outside and this soft, gooey, comforting inside, it creates this tension or this spikiness which Americans like. So that's why in some of these stews we'll put a... crunchy topping on something that's warm and savory on the inside. Americans tend to like this, these extreme of mouthfeels, not necessarily flavors, but mouthfeels. so we try to incorporate, not all of our recipes have that, but I gave seven different flavor profiles, and then we went out into the world and found the most maniacally delicious recipes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:42.966) Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:07.746) They are delicious. I have to say, Dan, one of my favorite is the easy peasy falafel. My kids love falafel, but it's really hard to find baked. It's usually deep fried in crappy seed oil and making it is really easy. And it has that dichotomy, like you said, and it's also sort of mentioned that it's so much cheaper to eat at home and get much quality ingredients. We all know that food costs have gone up so much for all of us. And so what I love about this is it solves that solution of, like you said, tasty, but it's also a lot more inexpensive. You can get bean in bulk, you can get chickpeas in bulk, and then you're making your dollar really stretch. Dan Buettner (12:51.903) If every time you go out to eat in America, you consume about 300 more calories than you would if you ate at home, and those calories tend to be laden with ultra processed foods and more sodium and sugar. When you cook at home, you get to control the ingredients. And it's not only important to you, but it's important to your family who are just following what you provide. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:01.23) Mm. Dan Buettner (13:19.343) Most of the ingredients in the Blue Zone Kitchen cookbooks, or most of the recipes rather, cost under $3 a serving. And people think I don't have time. Well, we've overcome that time argument two ways. The first way, the easy way is everything can be cooked in one pot or one pan or one cookie sheet, or I love the Instapot. But the other thing is, so at Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:41.207) Yes. Dan Buettner (13:47.983) Even at my age, if I optimize my diet away from a standard American diet towards a Blue Zone type diet or the diet you eat, It's worth about six extra years of life expectancy. If I average that those six years back through the rest of my life, that's three extra hours a day that I can do whatever I want on average. Or I gain an extra three hours a day. And to take 20 minutes of those three hours and assemble in one of these Blue Zone Kitchen one-pot meals, push the button. in the morning and come back and have this savory, delicious, healthy, and cruelty free low carbon footprint, maniacally delicious meal. I'll take that deal all day long. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:36.472) Well, it's also simple and not counting all these numbers all the time. And it's, amazing, Dan, how complicated people try to make lifestyle and all these tests and things you're supposed to follow. I love it so much. The Blue Zones is, it just, there's this experiential joy, I would say. I'm in the kitchen making things and I don't have to count how many carbs. There's all this fiber. My kids are healthy, we're healthy, we have a lot of energy. And there's other parts of the lifestyle, like you said, having purpose and living in close connection with nature and gardening. And it just feels uncomplex and more joy comes through. It's hard to put into words. Dan Buettner (15:27.307) If you eat a whole food plant-based diet, you don't have to think. the piece, you know, if you're overweight and unhealthy in America, which is about 80 % of Americans, I don't blame them. Why? Because we are constantly pummeled with marketing messages telling us, first of all, selling us these processed foods. And then when we get sick, selling us these diets and these programs that you have to make it sound proprietary and difficult in order to sell it. It's very hard to sell somebody on the idea that beans and rice. There's a big study that was done in 1950 that prisoners in Puerto Rico were fed beans and rice for three years. They didn't lose any muscle mass. They didn't develop any cardiovascular risk. All these things that these protein enthusiasts will tell you never happened. All they ate was beans and rice, and there was a little oil put in there. And very rarely they had some other plants. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:06.99) You Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:17.582) Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:28.801) No. Dan Buettner (16:35.087) But they're cheap. You can get a pound of beans for a buck or $2 and a pound of rice for two bucks. you can make, add some spices to that. It's about 50 cents a meal. Nobody makes money off of that except your family saves. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:48.206) Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:52.398) I think it was your last book too, Dan, or maybe two books ago where your dad tested all the recipes. And I saw some parts of your interview recently with your parents, which is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. And it seems like they're such loving, centered people. Can you, and now they're, I think your dad's, they're both in their eighties. when you travel around the world to get the very best recipes as I've done, you can get kind of romance by these really exotic flavors, especially in Southeast Asia. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:59.542) yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:03.512) Wow. Dan Buettner (18:24.802) these umami's and these miso and fermented tofu and that sort of thing. For me, seaweed tastes delicious. The reason I brought Roger Butener, who grew up on a farm in Minnesota, if he... Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:39.33) What kind of farm? Dan Buettner (18:41.185) Well, it was, was, they, no, they grew, there was almost a subsistence farm. They had a cow and a pig and some chickens and then the 10 acres of vegetables. But they, they mostly ate vegetables because meat that, you know, they needed the, the, the, the, the animal, for, for income. But, you know, they were so, they're very poor. My dad for Christmas got an orange, for example, he worked all Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:46.38) Okay. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:53.264) okay. Dan Buettner (19:11.149) summer and got a box of cracker jacks so that kind of gives you the idea but he was you grew up middle America I had him taste every recipe and if he gave it the thumbs down I could be pretty sure that most of America Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:21.015) Yeah. Dan Buettner (19:25.143) would say, this is too fancy for me. So I want these recipes to be right down the strike zone for Americans that, you know, if you live, that they'll be delicious for anybody and not too overpower. There's a few more kind of ambitious recipes in the book, but a lot of them are just, you know, Roger Buten approved. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:49.208) Well, you mentioned taste and we mentioned cost. And the other thing I want to mention, is when my kids love the Blue Zones burgers, is that they're also really, most of them are really easy to make and they don't take a lot of time because we all live such full lives. And I know for me as a working mom, I don't want to end my work day, pick my kids up, take them to chess class and swimming and then spend three hours in the kitchen. So I appreciate that you also made them accessible in terms of time. What you hear all the time is I don't have time. I can't afford to eat healthy. I can't afford to go to Whole Foods. You don't have to go to Whole Foods to eat healthy. I wouldn't mind if you do. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:04.098) Central. Yeah. Dan Buettner (21:29.101) I don't have the equipment, I don't have the know-how, and what I make isn't gonna taste delicious. So this book, the whole book is designed to overcome all five of those objections and make it easy, cheap, fast, and maniacally delicious. And it was an instant New York Times bestseller, I'm proud to say. And I appreciate you talking to me about it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:34.669) Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:51.03) I saw. Congratulations. Dan Buettner (21:58.575) Because I know people listen to you are enlightened. People listen to Kimberly Schneider. They're soulful. They are way above average intelligence. They care about the planet. They care about other creatures. They care about their families. And they want to live with vitality and purpose. so I really appreciate having a chance to talk to all you listeners out there. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:27.884) Yes. Well, know, Dan, your philosophy of losing... Well... Dan Buettner (22:33.743) That was my mom calling me. Dali, she's 87. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:36.574) my gosh. the whole thing. my gosh. Well, I loved seeing, again, the clips. I loved seeing her face. And I think the reason people were so interested, and I was interested, Dan, is because you live with such purpose. And it's an unwavering focus on helping others and sharing this. And there's a curiosity, you know, where did this start? What was your family like? And even on page one in the intro, you talk about a cultural sense of purpose. And that's another aspect of the Blue Zones where elders feel loved and they feel included. So what do you think we can do as a modern society besides eating and sharing food to feel a little bit more of that purpose, Dan? Because obviously a lot of people are lonely. People are on social media, but not interacting as much with other humans. What are some things that you've seen? in your research that could be applied in simple ways in today's life. Dan Buettner (23:39.395) These are counterintuitive and they take some effort, but they make a difference. And I would start a simple self-exercise either with a piece of paper and a pen or a blank screen, four columns, first column, and you just very short phrases what your values are. I'm a feminist, I'm a liberal. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:02.318) Mmm. Dan Buettner (24:06.671) a conservative, I'm a Christian, whatever it is. I love animals, but what your values are. Second column, what I love to do, my passions. I love to be active. I love to travel. love to be with a certain type of person. Third column, what you're good at. I'm good at fixing things. I'm a good caretaker. I'm a good with the first idea. I'm good at dispute resolution. I care. I'm a good listener, whatever they are. So once you write those three columns, then you look, okay, how can I put this to work in my life? How can I put this into action? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:50.275) Mmm. Dan Buettner (24:53.675) And for most Americans, it's not their job. Only about 30 % of Americans find purpose at work. So then you ask yourself, well, where can I put this to work? And one of the most counterintuitively powerful ways to do that is once you know your values, your strengths, your passions, volunteer. And for you or me, it might be the Humane Society walking dogs. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:13.613) Mmm. Dan Buettner (25:21.293) Because purpose that's not put to work is almost meaningless. know, in Kauai you have that kuleana. And the reason I love that word, it's the hybrid of both purpose and altruism. It's what's my responsibility. And it's almost always to the community. And people put their kuleana to work. They take care of the land. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:26.082) Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:39.246) Mmm. Dan Buettner (25:52.449) a child who needs to be looked after. so it says, well, I'm sorry, volunteering is just not for me. Another easy way to find purpose. Over 95 % of Americans were born into a religion, a faith-based community. You may have drifted away from it right now. And I don't care if it's Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Buddhist, but... Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:09.687) I know. Dan Buettner (26:21.561) force yourself to show up a month of Sundays and show up to a faith that might resonate with you. And that's a very easy way to find purpose. But the data is crystal clear that people who feel and can articulate their sense of purpose live about eight years longer. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:29.998) Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:41.9) Yeah. Dan Buettner (26:42.177) And once again, I can't make any money off of you by telling you that. And a marketer can't make any money off of you, but that's why you haven't heard of it. But if you look at at the, at the literature, the, the, the, the evidence for purpose is rock solid and pervasive. And, it also makes life richer. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:02.83) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:06.626) It really does. And then you're even more motivated to eat well, I think, and live this life because you feel important just for being you, right? You're not just going to sit on the couch, I think, eat junk food when you don't care or when you're just trying to get through. You know what's cool, Dan, in Hawaii, something we do with our neighbors is we do trades. just organically. So we have over a million bees. So we give honey to our neighbors. One of our neighbors grows a lot of papayas. So he's like, here's papaya's back. And then we give honey to another neighbor who grows eggplants and sweet potatoes. And so there's this really beautiful connection that I think is also, I don't know, call it purpose or just connection with the community around when you can share. you know, it's not barter. We're just giving it out freely. But Dan Buettner (27:37.849) I love Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:57.11) Since we started doing that, feel even more fulfilled being on the land. Dan Buettner (28:03.979) I was there recently and somebody told me if you're not eating fruit in Hawaii, it's not because you don't have money, it's because you don't have friends. Because apparently everybody's got a fruit tree and they can't keep up with the mangoes and the papayas and the guavas and yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:17.361) yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:22.926) with guavas. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:06.03) Keeping with some of the research around intermittent fasting and also what we've been doing in our saloon community with just having a glowing green smoothie or waiting instead of having a lot of fat and protein. It's very different than eating breakfast like a king, which some people have said in the past. Can you talk a little bit about what you found in the Blue Zones about this? Dan Buettner (31:27.363) Well, I still think you should eat breakfast like a king just later in the day. The thing to remember in Blue Zones, for the most part, they're done eating by four or five. Yeah, or they don't even have dinner in some cases. But the Adventist template is a giant breakfast at 10 and a smaller but still substantive meal at four, kind of a liner. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:30.338) Mmm. Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:38.818) That was me. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:55.296) Yeah, that's Hawaii. Dan Buettner (31:55.983) But the point is... Yeah, that's pretty so that so the point is you have about 14 hours Where you have a de facto fast? So the problem with you know me living in Miami everybody goes to dinner at seven or eight o'clock So you're not done until eight or nine So in order to get that that time for your digestive system to rest. I'm not eating breakfast until 11 o'clock or something like that's usually a sardinian minestrone for me, but you know if you can manage Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:11.787) Yeah. Dan Buettner (32:27.697) to eat. I think the ideal for most of us is 12 to 14 hours and that follows a Blue Zone pattern and you know can shift it back or up depending on you know how you live because we want to make it easy for you otherwise you won't do it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:46.998) Yeah. So it's interesting you talk about the minestrone soup for breakfast. I know a lot of the Blue Zones do eat savory foods in the morning. How do you eat, Dan? Do you rotate a couple of recipes that are your favorites and change up the veggies and the beans? Or are you someone that loves to keep trying new recipes at home? because I can be Dan Buettner (33:11.499) I'm kind of a one-pot guy, which is why. So, you know, there's a recipe in there. I think it's called Dan's Mastroni or Melisse Mastroni, but I make that, but. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (33:14.614) Yah. Dan Buettner (33:25.195) whatever vegetable has been sitting in my refrigerator and is starting to get to the sort of end of its life, I put that in there. And so the core ingredients are the same, but I start with them, start eating minestrone almost every single day. And it's a huge bowl. It doesn't have many calories, but it has about half the fiber I need for the day. And then mid afternoon, if I can avoid it, I won't eat anything. But often I'll eat a snack. And snack is I take, I'm a believer that some fermented food is good. So I have this coconut yogurt, and I put a bunch of berries in there and some omega-3 ground up chia seeds. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:19.692) Yeah. Dan Buettner (34:20.015) And then, live in Miami. I'm very social. I go out to dinner every night. I go out to dinner six nights a week. And it's always that tonight I'm going out, dinner reservation's at eight, 730. So it's just, at a certain point you gotta enjoy life too. And where I live in Miami, you're not gonna sit home and watch TV. It's too much fun. I go to the faena. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:31.064) Really? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:35.918) wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:44.707) Wait. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:48.398) Yeah. that's so, it's fun. And you also get some, so much light and sunlight and you're outside and living the life. I can see the beautiful weather behind you. Dan Buettner (34:59.746) Yeah. It's gorgeous day today, actually. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:05.953) Well, guess, you again, just wrapping this up, because we get so many questions about the protein, Dan, is if people were to measure, people always say to me, well, you know, am I getting enough protein when I'm eating this way? And, you know, so many times I say, well, you don't have to hyper fixate on the numbers. But naturally, when you're eating beans, and you're eating whole grains, and you're eating fruit, and you're eating amino acid rich vegetables like kale, you're getting enough. protein, can assure people who are. Dan Buettner (35:36.175) if you're eating a bean and a grain, so a bean and a corn tortilla or a bean and rice or tofu is everything, you're getting enough. Now, the only caveat is when you get 65, 70, when you get older, your ability to absorb it diminishes some in that I would, I would. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:45.09) Yes. Dan Buettner (36:02.351) talk to my doctor about what the right amount of protein is for you. It's a little harder when you get older, but if you're under 70 and you're talking, listen to me right now, 100 % whole food plant-based diet, forget about it, you're getting enough protein. Whole food plant-based diet with beans and grains, you're good. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:17.569) Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:21.612) Yes, and also you need more protein when you're pregnant, but that's also with certain recipes. Dan Buettner (36:26.541) Yes, and I'm past the age I can get pregnant. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:32.748) Well, Dan, thank you so much for chatting with us. Dan Buettner (36:34.895) I love you. You're so wonderful. Thank you very much. If people, I always really love to thank people for taking the time because there's lots of competition for people's time. And if they sat around and listened to us for... for 50 minutes, that's a gift. So thank you. If anybody has questions for me, I'm at Dan Butener on Instagram and I answer all my direct messages. And you do me a huge favor if you listen to the Dan Butener podcast or give one of our frozen Blue Zone kitchen meals a try, which are in just about every grocery store chain, know, major grocery store chain in the frozen food section. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:50.263) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (37:06.626) enough. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (37:13.632) yeah. It's congratulations on that. I love the line. I've seen it everywhere. It sprouts at Whole Foods and also obviously makes it accessible for people. We're also going to link in the show notes, everyone, mysalooner.com to One Pot Meals, the Blue Zones kitchen book, which is out just a few months of all your recipe books, Dan, because I love One Pot Meals so much. think this is the one that I love the most. Dan Buettner (37:22.841) Target. Dan Buettner (37:40.751) you're such a sweetheart. Thank you. Thank you, Cameron. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (37:44.3) Well, thank you everyone so much. Yeah, thank you for coming. I mean, I could just ask, talk to you endlessly. I always learn more about the Blue Zones and I read all your books. So it's really amazing how it just keeps going deeper and deeper. Dan Buettner (38:00.163) Well, it's endlessly fascinating. Sometimes you go out in the world to discover, but sometimes you go in and the discovery is even richer. So that's what I'm doing now. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (38:07.914) Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you everyone for tuning in. again, the show notes, mysalooner.com will link to Dan's work, his Instagram, his new book, and I will put information about his Blue Zone's frozen meals otherwise and share this episode, please, with anyone that you think would benefit, which is my opinion, pretty much everyone. all trying to live healthier, longer, happier lives. We'll be back here in just a few days. Till then, take great care and sending you all so much love. Dan Buettner (38:43.789) Aloha. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (38:44.936) Ha!

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (known as Dr. B) Episode Summary: In this episode, Dr. B discusses his new book, 'Plant Powered Plus,' which delves into the multifactorial nature of inflammation and the importance of a holistic approach to health. He emphasizes the interconnectedness of gut health, lifestyle choices, and emotional well-being, while also addressing the confusion surrounding dietary guidelines and the role of plant-based nutrition. The discussion highlights the significance of personal journeys in healing, the impact of circadian rhythms on health, and the importance of addressing root causes of health issues rather than solely relying on medications. Dr. B. shares insights on the role of coffee and alcohol in gut health, encouraging listeners to embrace a balanced and informed approach to their wellness journey. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz Resources: Website: theguthealthmd.com Book: Plant Powered Plus: Activate the Power of Your Gut to Tame Inflammation and Reclaim Your Health Social: IG: @theguthealthmd, TikTok: theguthealthmd_ YouTube: @theguthealthmd Bio: Will Bulsiewicz, MD MSCI (known as Dr. B), is an award winning gastroenterologist, gut health expert and New York Times bestselling author. He received his medical degree from Georgetown University and a Master’s in Clinical Investigation from Northwestern University. He earned the highest clinical honors in both his residency at Northwestern and his gastroenterology fellowship at UNC—recognition reserved for the top physician in each graduating class. He also completed an NIH-funded fellowship in epidemiology at UNC. He has authored more than twenty five scientific papers, his work has been cited more than 5000 times by other scientists, and he has delivered numerous keynotes as well as briefings to Congress, the USDA, and the NFL Alumni. His books Fiber Fueled and The Fiber Fueled Cookbook have over 500,000 copies in print and are translated into 20 languages. His highly anticipated third book, Plant Powered Plus, is scheduled for publication on January 13, 2026. He lives in Charleston, South Carolina with his wife and four kids and offers free resources at theguthealthmd.com. EPISODE SPONSORS: Solluna SBO Probiotics OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Book Overview 02:10 The Multifactorial Nature of Inflammation 06:19 Personal Journey and Healing 10:04 Holistic Health and Connection 12:31 Navigating Dietary Confusion 18:06 The Importance of Gut Health 20:29 Four Essential Elements for Health 25:45 The Gut-Immune Connection 30:18 Inflammation and Fertility 32:41 Addressing Root Causes of Health Issues 36:02 The Role of Medications and Lifestyle Changes 39:19 Circadian Rhythms and Gut Health 53:52 Coffee, Alcohol, and Gut Health SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger Simple Ways to Use the Power of Herbalism in Your Daily Life with Rachelle Robinette The Importance of Nitric Oxide and How to Optimize our Body’s Production of it with Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Heart Healthy, Plant-Based Eating with Dr. Jenneffer Pulapaka The Science of Longevity: Plaque Heart Scans, Cancer Screening, Glutathione & More with Dr. Julianna Lindsey Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Kimberly (00:00.686)Hello and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I’m really excited to share my conversation with Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, also known as Dr. B, who is a plant-based gastroenterologist. He’s the New York Times bestselling author of Fiber Fueled. He happens to be a dear friend of mine who has come to my house several times and we have a very brother-sister-like relationship. And he has a new book out called Plant Powered Plus. Activate the power of your gut to tame inflammation and reclaim your health. So in this new book, he’s focusing on inflammation. He and I share a great passion for the real power of plants and a plant-forward diet. Whether you’re fully plant-based like Dr. B and I, or you are adding more plants to your diet in general, there’s so much power in eating this way. as we’ll talk about in today’s show. I also want to call out if you are interested in this topic of inflammation gut health, if you aren’t aware, my brand, Solluna has an amazing line of digestion-focused supplements, which are aligned with nature and backed by science. Our SBO probiotics, for example, have proper ratios and strains. They’re hardy enough to get through your stomach acid to implant in your gut. And I can’t tell you what a difference these supplements have made in my life personally, detoxing the digestive enzymes as well to make sure you’re getting the maximum amount of nutrition from your food and reducing bloating, getting rid of aging waste. So please head over to mysalunawith2lz.com to check out our amazing line of digestion focused supplements. All right, all that being said, let’s get right into our show today with Dr. B. Kimberly (00:01.64)Dr. B, Will, my dear friend, repeat podcast guest, welcome back and congratulations on your new book. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (00:11.33)Thank you, Kim. It’s always a pleasure to be with you and your audience. So thanks for having me. Kimberly (00:16.628)And this is your third book, if I’m correct? it? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (00:21.294)This is my third book, baby. It’s hard to keep track of because we have four children at home and then I have three book babies. So yeah, this is my third book, baby. First was Fiber Fueled in 2020, the Fiber Fueled Cookbook in 22, and then here we are Plant Powered Plus in 2026. Kimberly (00:36.48)I feel like it’s been this journey, know, collectively in your career and also between you and I, I feel like we met around when your first book came out. And I think that’s when you first came on the show and we connected on so many different levels, sharing, of course, our passion for plant-based eating, for fiber. So we’ve been on our own little journey now six years. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:03.276)We have, and it’s a beautiful journey. And I love that. You’re like a sister to me. You have lot of that. I don’t have any actual sisters in my life. So you sort of helped to fill that void. But also I feel like as I look at your career, it’s actually played out. You’re a little bit more advanced than I am on some levels. But the way it’s played out for you feels a little bit similar to me, which is that you started off really nutrition oriented. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:33.42)And then the conversation expanded and grew into other places. And that’s kind of where I’m at now is of course, I’m going to talk to you about nutrition. And do I think it’s important? Of course, I think it’s important. It’s really important, but it’s not the only thing. Kimberly (01:35.753)Yes. Kimberly (01:48.168)Yes. I felt that in this new book, which we’ll get into right now, The Plant Powered Plus, and you’re really talking about this huge topic, which is so pervasive and multifactorial inflammation. And I love how you get into in this book, lifestyle so much, which we’ll talk about circadian rhythms, meal time, stress, lifestyle, connecting to purpose. Because like you said, it’s not just this narrow granular approach that’s going to heal us, but this whole body, whole being, whole heart, whole soul approach, which is so important for it to be sustainable and work. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (02:29.122)You know, one of the things, a hundred percent. And one of the things that I love about when you and I get to connect is that we come from our own sort of angle into the conversation, but we end up meeting in the same place and we might have our own ways of, of like understanding how we got there, but we’re using the same language, the same words to talk about the same paths to healing. Kimberly (02:58.089)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (02:58.862)And, you know, I think some people have been surprised Rich Roll was taken aback by some of the things in my new book, because he’s like, I really didn’t expect, like as a scientific guy, I really didn’t expect you to go into some of these places. But you know what the truth is, Kim? Everything that has been taught to us by traditional medicine, everything that you’ve been talking about for years, ahead of the curve. Kimberly (03:24.512)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (03:27.732)science has validated. And the pathways, the physiology, which I, of course, I’d love to see and I love to talk about and we can talk about today. The pathways are now proven. So things that people used to dismiss years ago as being, that’s like kind of woo woo, right? Here we are today. This is real. These are real conversations about healing. And I can show you the exact physiology. Kimberly (03:30.335)Yes. Kimberly (03:48.534)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (03:57.816)that involves the brain and the gut and the hormones in between that explains how these different things affect our life. Kimberly (04:07.112)I love how you chose to write this book in terms of a lot of health books feel very disruptive. You can’t get through a sentence without all the different footnote, you know, numbers and just parentheses. And instead you write a chapter and then with confidence you say at the end, there’s 428 citations to support this material. It’s all on the website. And I found that so refreshing. I could actually read the book and glean the subject matter. I think that’s what makes a lot of health books hard to read is there’s just so many references. For the average person, it becomes confusing and it dilutes the message. So there’s a real power in how you did that. I also love how you start the book with a dedication to your mother. It already started from a very heart-based place and it felt very personal. the way you wrote this one. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (05:06.028)Yeah, well, one of the things that happens in this book is I start to open up about some of the challenges that I’ve had in my life, some of the mistakes that I’ve made, but also some of the challenges that we faced as a family when I was a kid. And that involves both of my parents and my dad is deceased. And I, I dedicated fiber fueled to my dad, but, we, Kimberly (05:13.992)Mm-hmm. Kimberly (05:26.891)Yeah. Kimberly (05:31.891)Hmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (05:35.768)had a complex relationship, my father and I. And when I wrote Fiber Fueled, it was very easy for me, Kim, to write in a way where it makes it sound like, hey, in 2012, I was this 32-year-old guy who was struggling with my health, and all I had to do was start drinking some smoothies. And all of a sudden everything fell into place and everything was beautiful, right? It’s so easy to do that. There’s the part of me that there’s some shame there. There’s processing that is still occurring to this day. There’s complex familial dynamics that like in 2020, I wasn’t, I wasn’t going to write about that. It’s not, I wasn’t ready to share that. And, and Kimberly (06:06.73)Yeah. Kimberly (06:16.853)Mm. Kimberly (06:26.847)Yeah. Kimberly (06:32.703)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (06:33.59)You get a little further along and here we are, you know, six years later and I think that there’s opportunities for healing for people in this place through our relationships and also through our connection to other things, to a purpose, to a higher power. I really believe that this is what the world needs right now. And as a medical doctor, if I believe that, if that, if If deep inside of myself, my heart tells me that’s what people truly need to heal. I’m a coward if I don’t come forward and say it. And so, but as a person who is deeply committed to what I set off to do as a teenager, which was to be a medical doctor and help people. That commitment basically says, Hey dude, like this is uncomfortable. You have to step forward and be willing to talk about this. Kimberly (07:08.469)Mm-hmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (07:32.578)So here we are. Kimberly (07:34.494)It’s so beautiful how it’s like the opening of the heart through the different layers. We are so concerned with how we’re perceived by others and our identity. I’m the smart, I’m the medical doctor. I have all the studies behind me, which is really important as a pathway for many people to come in. But then, like you said, there’s more to it. And I love how you’re really talking about that, the complexities, the things that can’t be ignored. know, people kind of put stress in a bucket and then we try to put band-aids on it. But why are we feeling stressed in the first place? Why are we so disconnected? We’re disconnected from our foods and we’re disconnected from our own hearts. We’re disconnected from people around us. We’re disconnected from our communities. And we’re going to be more disconnected. We’re going have disconnection in our gut microbiomes. Like it’s so many different layers that interconnect. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (08:28.002)Well, if you think about it, like this word holistic. Number one, the body does not care that we want to fragment it and talk about it as different things and different compartments of the body. Right? Gut health versus metabolic health versus immune health. Like the body doesn’t care. It’s all part of one body. It’s all interconnected. And there are things that are occurring inside of us. right now as you and I speak to one another, as we speak to one another on a microscopic level that are influencing an entire cascade of physiology, right? But also, we are not separate from our environment. I grew up believing that I was, I grew up believing that, look, like, look in the mirror, this is what you see, this is the person and everything else out there, that’s just the surroundings and I can go out and I Kimberly (09:10.676)Mm-hmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (09:32.586)I can manipulate that I can change that. And now what I realize is actually no, what’s happening is the other way around. The environment is changing me. And the gut microbiome is the story. The gut microbiome is actually the story of my life. And from that, it’s influencing my physiology throughout my entire body. So Kimberly (09:39.785)Yes. Mm-hmm. Kimberly (09:46.997)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (09:59.178)So we are we are part of this, you know, this concept of like oneness, this concept of like, something bigger. We can’t we can’t pull ourselves out of that. We are the product. We are the product of the people that we surround ourselves with. We are the product of our home and our environment that we live in. We are we are the product of our relationships. We are the product of all of these different factors. Kimberly (10:06.165)Yes. Kimberly (10:19.798)And like you said, in keeping with ancient medicinal practices, you talk so much about plant power and the diversity and taking all these different superpowers, the polyphenols and the antioxidants and the different vitamins and supercharging our bodies. When I read your book and when I, know, as from the start and we started connecting, it’s, seems obvious, but also just common sense. And then our mutual friend Dan Buenior has studied these blue zones. And we say, yes, we need plants, we need fiber. But what do you think? Well, now there’s just so much, I feel confusion still and misdirection, you we’re on the heels as you and I chat, the government dietary protocols have just been redone to sort of reflect this collective over emphasis on protein. A lot of people are getting, picking up little tidbits of information on social media and around. And now so much emphasis on beef jerky, beef tallow, know, protein bars, protein shakes all day long. And it’s moving us away. Like we’re talking about this environmental connection, gut health, soil diversity. I mean, I don’t know, the question it’s more just a, you know, a statement or reflection back because sometimes I just think, wow, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a lot of confusion to muddle through for many. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (11:57.964)Yeah, well, and unfortunately, I don’t know that the world is going to make that any easier for us anytime soon, right? Because the truth and the reality, so let me, I would love to frame it this way. And then we can talk about the dietary guidelines and some of my thoughts around that. So getting back to what we were discussing a moment ago of this idea of like, you are one person, you are one body. Kimberly (12:04.426)Yeah. Kimberly (12:13.129)Yes, please. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (12:25.506)There is a way in which your body is functioning and interacting with the surrounding world. And those are facts. Those are the laws of nature. And the laws of nature do not care what you want to believe. Right? And when we conduct science, Kimberly (12:39.606)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (12:52.364)And this word science, it makes me sad that this has become a charged word. It really shouldn’t, it really should not be. Because ultimately this is the tool that we need in order to understand and interpret these laws of nature. And so if the laws of nature are the truth, literally the truth, indisputably, and they’re, and they’re working right now, whether we want to acknowledge them or not, it’s happening as we sit here. Kimberly (12:57.055)Right. Kimberly (13:15.327)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (13:22.496)Science is our approach getting closer to the truth. And that’s not to say that it’s, you know, flawless, clearly mistakes get made. But this is the technique that we’re using to try to ultimately get there. And the more that we can lean into that, the closer that we will get to the truth, and the closer that we get to the truth, the better that we will become at being able to observe the laws of nature and use them to our advantage. So I would, I would actually make an argument that you 5,000 years of Ayurveda, right, or traditional Chinese medicine. They’re not randomized control trials, but there is tremendous wisdom in 5,000 years of information that is human observation. That’s science, right? So anyway, and I think that the problem is, the problem is that Kimberly (14:01.961)Right. Kimberly (14:08.98)Yep, wishin’. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (14:17.24)We live in a world where like I’m actually taken aback and appalled by how much the information can vary depending on where you, what is your entry point? Right? So you click one thing and next thing you know, you will be fed all of these different things. And my wife might be sitting next to me on the couch. She clicks something different and she ends up in a totally different place. And our perspective on the exact same thing is radically divergent. Kimberly (14:27.286)Totally. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (14:47.436)Right? So, and this is the problem that we have is that this is now like, affected nutrition and science. And this has become a, like nutrition should not be political at all. It should not matter. We’re trying to make people healthy period, but now it’s become a political thing. So anyway, with regard to the dietary guidelines, there was a lot about the, there are some things that they got right. And I was grateful that they got right. Right. For the first time, they mentioned gut health. Kimberly (14:47.573)Yeah. Kimberly (15:02.57)Yes. Kimberly (15:07.638)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (15:16.812)right? But how can you mention gut health and talk about the value? They actually said the right thing, which is gut health is important. You need more plant based food, you need fermented food. I’m like giving a standing ovation. And then I look at the rest of the guidelines and I’m like, so you’re not going to talk about the fiber deficiency in America at all, right? But then you’re going to reorganize the food pyramid to prioritize Kimberly (15:34.867)Exactly. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (15:44.79)animal-based foods, specifically red meat and butter and beef tallow. And these are the highest sources of saturated fat. And so here’s the like thing that it just, it doesn’t make sense. You don’t have to be a nutritionist to hear this and hear that it makes no sense. Because in their recommendation, if you actually read the document, they said with total clarity, Kimberly (15:46.986)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (16:12.436)your goal should be less than 10 % of your calories from saturated fat. And Kim, that was the same recommendation that they made in 2020. They haven’t changed that. And the average American gets 12 % of their calories from saturated fat. So if you’re recommending to us that we get less than 10 % of our calories from saturated fat, but you’re simultaneously making recommendations that increase our saturated fat intake, you’re you’re actually making us less likely to fulfill what you’re asking us to do. It doesn’t make any sense. Kimberly (16:42.582)Exactly. just leads to this, you know, kind of honing in on inflammation now. It leads to this chronic confusion, I think that’s out there about what we’re to focus on. I was at my son’s chess tournament the other day and we went next door. It’s convenient. We went to Starbucks and I haven’t been there in a while. And I was amazed, Dr. B, how many drinks you can just add. protein too. It’s everything. Everything is protein, protein, protein. And when we emphasize protein, we have no choice. The average person can’t emphasize so many things at once. So then there’s a de-emphasis on the very things that you’re talking about in your book, this diversity of plants and fiber and all the things that have been proven through these hundreds and hundreds of citations to really help with these conditions. People are Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (17:13.088)It’s become an entire thing. Yeah, the protein thing. Yeah. Kimberly (17:42.098)I love how you also talk about the severity of another big topic, menopause, how menopause symptoms are impacted by inflammation, food allergies, eczema, besides, of course, the pervasiveness of autoimmune conditions. It’s everywhere. And then everybody’s just trying to increase their protein intake every day, become sort of their barometer of whether they’re eating healthy. So there’s this gap here, Dr. B, and you address that head on in your book. not just with protein, just, you know, what’s going on with people and their lifestyle and where the focus really should be. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, just mounted that in general, and then we’ll get into some of these lines, the three lines of defense, which I found were really interesting. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (18:23.075)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (18:28.78)Yeah, so I think that a sensible approach to nutrition is to say, you’re not going to do every single thing, right? And that would just be, it would drive you bonkers to try to do every single thing. So we need to be strategic and we want to go after the big opportunities, the life changing opportunities. But at the same time, for it to actually be life changing. It has to be something that is missing. If you’re already doing it and you’re doing it to sufficiency, why would you change? Why don’t you just keep it the way it is, right? Whereas the stuff that’s missing, that’s where you could radically transform your health if it’s the right thing. So in the nutrition elements within this book, Kimberly (19:09.372)Right. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (19:25.57)That’s where the conversation starts from my perspective is I’m here to say that like in the event that any listener right now is unsure of whether they’re willing to do a plant powered plus diet. I want you to know that plant powered plus is welcoming many people of many different diets and we could apply different terms. I actually don’t like when we apply labels think that like we’re oversimplifying. Kimberly (19:52.66)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (19:55.458)but we can apply terms and it’s not just vegan and vegetarian. It can include Mediterranean, can include pescatarian, it can include flexitarian. We have options, but the key here is that there are four specific things that I have identified that I see as being essential to gut health and to reduce inflammation. And they are fiber, Kimberly (20:20.15)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (20:24.142)Polyphenols, which polyphenols are the colors of our food. So you walk into the supermarket and you see this beautiful produce section. It’s the rainbow. When we say eat the rainbow, we’re really saying eat polyphenols. Number three, healthy fats. And number four, have trouble getting my hand to do that properly. Sorry. I used to think I was a great athlete until right now, but anyway, yeah, there we go. Number four. Number four is fermented food. Kimberly (20:43.574)you Kimberly (20:47.901)Or, yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (20:54.894)And so, and if you go through these one by one, fiber, 95 % efficient, polyphenols, well, they mostly come from fruits and vegetables. They can come from other things too, but mostly from fruits and vegetables. And at a minimum, 80 to 90 % of Americans are not getting the mark on those particular foods. Healthy fats were again, over consuming saturated fat. And we’re under consuming the fat that’s found in nuts and seeds and avocados. Kimberly (21:13.631)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (21:24.89)And finally, fermented food, even people who eat healthy, the vast majority, they consume less than one serving of fermented food per day. So these four things to me, that’s the opportunity. Because if you did these four things and work them into your nutritional routines, you would feel the difference. Kimberly (21:50.1)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (21:50.316)And it could be any of the symptoms that you described a moment ago and more inflammation is far reaching. Most of us on some level are dealing with something and there is an opportunity here. Kimberly (22:03.284)And these are accessible. You know, we can think of the vast colors and adding variety through the rainbows, the rainbow that is accessible when we walk into the farmer’s market or into the supermarket. When you talk about healthy fats, Dr. B, we talk, know, seeds, nuts, avocados, I know you mentioned in the book, not eating a lot of, you know, high-fried, high-heat foods, like fried foods, which many of us have known for many years. But do you, I wonder if you personally do cook with, like will you saute sometimes with avocado oil or I know some doctors would say, well, just use vegetable broth or try to avoid cooking with oils altogether. I know you say it’s not one size fits all, but in general, if someone’s thinking about coming over more and thinking, well, what are some of the ways in which I can… Tone in on healthy fats. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (23:04.408)So in the plant-based space, and Kimmy, I’m sure you’re familiar with this, there’s camps that have very, very big feelings on the question of oil, whether to include or not include, you know? And… Kimberly (23:12.532)I know. Yeah, Dr. Bernard is in the no oil camp and then some are, you know, amounts of coconut oil and other oils too. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (23:23.436)Yeah, so the way that I would approach this from my perspective is like for the people who are no oil and they’re thriving and their health is great, I wouldn’t change anything. I would stay as you are, right? I still think that you would benefit from healthy fat in your diet and that includes seeds and nuts and avocados, but I’m not saying that you should reintroduce oil if you’ve found that you actually are doing incredibly well without it. People who are trying to lose weight, Kimberly (23:30.805)Yeah. Kimberly (23:42.218)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (23:51.656)Oil is not really helpful when you’re trying to lose weight. It’s the most calorie dense thing that exists. But for the average person who’s listening to us right now, and I’m trying to convince them to increase their plant based food intake, because that’s how we address these four things that we’ve been talking about. Right? We have to acknowledge the reality oil tastes great. And I enjoy my food when it’s included with that. So I don’t personally go out of my way to ramp up my oil intake. But If you are to include oil in your diet, to me, the choice would be extra virgin olive oil at room temperature. I really don’t want people to cook at high heat with oil that much, but if you are, avocado oil is the choice. So like I don’t, I don’t do a ton of sauteing and frying and things like this. I don’t do much of that. I do a lot of slow cooking. and to me, those are the most like, it’s hard to beat slow cooked food, honestly. So, Kimberly (24:39.423)or roast. Thank you. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (24:51.522)But for what it’s worth, if I were to be doing that, I would use avocado oil. Kimberly (24:55.294)Yeah, well said. I think that there’s different types of cooking methods that we can adopt more. For me, we do eat lot of soups and stews in our family, and we don’t need to use a lot of oil when you cook that way. So there’s lots of different methodologies that can adapt as you come into this lifestyle. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (25:17.314)Yeah, so like for me, I just want to welcome people into this lifestyle and I want to change, I want to change their life. I want to change their health. And I sometimes feel like the oil question becomes a blocker to that. I don’t want that to be a blocker. want, I want people to come in and enjoy delicious, colorful food. Kimberly (25:20.424)Yeah. Kimberly (25:29.78)No. Kimberly (25:34.984)I love how there’s so many people suffering with allergic reactions, Dr. B. It could be pet dander, it could be eczema, it could be, I just don’t know. And I love how specifically you break down these lines of defense in our body. Now more and more people are starting to realize how closely our immune system is related to our gut health. But can you just give us a little bit of a… like an overview of the microbes, the gut barrier and our immune system and how they rise and fall together. I found that really well written in the book. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (26:15.136)Yeah, I mean, I’m happy to explain this out of curiosity. I bet you’ve been talking about this for 15 years, but Kimberly (26:20.468)Yeah. You know, it’s funny when I wrote the beauty detox solution and I was talking so much about digestion and it was like this revelation to me, Dr. V, that my skin had such bad acne and it wasn’t until I cleared my constipation and I gave up dairy, which I couldn’t metabolize very well, many things I was like, wow, this really works. And people, you know, had never heard of it. before. Now there’s so much talk about it, which I’m really happy to hear. you know, and of course, our, our event has been talking about agony and digestive health for so many thousands of years, but it’s always like, yeah, things get out. Thankfully that are helpful. Sometimes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (26:57.774)Exactly. Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (27:04.588)Well, and I think I think sometimes what’s necessary is like, people are waiting for the mess mechanistic research to prove what people what the observation that you already are seeing that you already that you already knew, right? So because many of the studies are in the last five years since my first book came out in the last five, six years. So the but what we what we have learned is that Kimberly (27:15.936)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (27:33.8)You know, I guess let me let me start and I’m going to zoom out for a moment and then we’ll narrow in, which is to say that as I entered into writing this book as an author, I had an opportunity I could have written about anything. And as a medical doctor, I want to go where the opportunity exists to help the most people possible. And what I saw is that we have an epidemic of inflammation. And so I started with a question that Kimberly (27:59.359)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (28:02.926)Um, for those of you who grabbed the book, you’ll find this on page, believe 371, 372 of the book. There’s a table where I actually did research to try to figure out how many health conditions can I prove with a, the scientific reference that this health condition is associated with inflammation. And I found over 130, like, I think there’s like 135. And so then I moved to my second question. Kimberly (28:28.502)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (28:32.994)which was out of these health conditions, how many of them have dysbiosis, which means damage to the microbiome. Or another way of asking the same question is what’s up with the microbiome in these people that have these inflammatory health conditions? And the answer to that question was in layman’s terms, the microbiome was jacked up, the gut was jacked up. In fact, I couldn’t find any study. where there was evidence of chronic inflammation and the gut microbiome was appearing healthy. So it’s a hundred percent correlation that basically when we are struggling with chronic inflammatory health conditions, which could be allergic, as you mentioned, it could be autoimmune, but it could be metabolic like diabetes, obesity, these are actually inflammatory. Kimberly (29:09.142)100 % correlation. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (29:29.362)it could be mood disorder. Depression is an inflammatory mood disorder. Could be cognition. Our brain Alzheimer’s comes from inflammation. hormonal polycystic ovary syndrome, endometriosis, infertility in both men and women. In men, erectile dysfunction in women, perimenopause and menopause symptoms. so anyway, that’s just like a fraction and Kimberly (29:55.542)Well, Dr. Lee, can we pause there for a moment because it’s such a big topic is the infertility and PCOH is rampant. And you talk about here, I found it was really interesting, the glyphosate and some of these external toxins also correlating to fertility issues. But also in your work, seeing when you’re in general, from your diet or other conditions, your gut microbiome is disrupted. Or let’s say someone does have an autoimmune condition. I just met a woman over the break who has, she’s 28 years old and she was just diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and she’s just trying to get pregnant. So how, you know, you can have these really severe or mild to severe autoimmune conditions and how much it affects your fertility. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (30:49.966)Profoundly. Inflammation clearly affects fertility. And in fact, Kim, I’ll have to connect you to my friend, Natalie Crawford. And she is a fertility specialist, OBGYN, in Austin, Texas. She has a new book that’s coming out in April that’s entirely about fertility. And the first thing that she writes about is inflammation. Kimberly (30:54.219)Mm. Kimberly (31:00.906)Hmm. Kimberly (31:18.504)inflammation because there’s like inflammation’s up and infertility is up across the board. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (31:25.14)100%. Infertility is a massive problem in both men and women. So on the men’s health side, some of the statistics are terrifying. Sperm counts have plummeted in the last 30 years. Testosterone levels have plummeted in the last 30 years. So I mean, men are struggling on many different levels. And a lot of this is health conditions driven by chronic low grade inflammation that they’re not even aware, right? Like, you don’t feel well, you don’t feel like yourself, you’re not proud to be the man that you should be. And you don’t realize that there’s this thing that’s driving that that’s actually deeply seated inside of you. So and then in terms of women, 100%, there is no doubt that chronic inflammation is associated with infertility. And that can manifest through health conditions like polycystic ovary syndrome. or through endometriosis, but it’s not just that. And, you know, if you think about like, for example, how fertility can vary where infertility can show up when a person is underweight. Being underweight is inflammatory in the same way that being overweight is inflammatory. When your body is in metabolic balance, then that’s anti-inflammatory. When you’re out of metabolic balance, which is underweight or overweight, then Kimberly (32:34.92)Right? Kimberly (32:38.582)Mmm. Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (32:49.464)it’s actually inflammatory and that’s part of what’s happening there. Kimberly (32:53.878)Dr. B, if people aren’t feeling well and they rush to take bioidentical hormones, let’s take testosterone or women going through really rough menopause, and it can help, but do you think there can still be or can mask the underlying inflammatory conditions which aren’t helped necessarily by those hormones? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (33:14.688)I’m of the belief, my approach, like if I were to generalize about my approach to medicine, I’m of the belief that in all health conditions, every single one of them, we should be taking steps to understand what is the root of this health condition? How did we get to where we are today? And what are the steps that we can take to address the root of the health condition? And that doesn’t necessarily mean that we must reject medicine. Right? You can accept Kimberly (33:37.226)Yeah. Kimberly (33:43.186)It means along with that, holistically as well. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (33:48.857)100%. And the problem is that we have a healthcare system that’s built to basically dole out medicine or surgery or whatever it might be, and completely ignores how we got there. So in the example of the person, Kim, who has an autoimmune health issue, and I’ve taken care of many of these people throughout my career, all right, there’s a story that you will hear repeatedly, and I’m quite sure there’s going to be listeners who are going to be like, Oh, my gosh, that’s me. Where Kimberly (34:07.262)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (34:17.102)They come in, let’s pretend they have ulcerative colitis and you put them on a powerful drug, for example, humira, right? $3,000 a month. And this powerful drug will take a flaring person with active ulcerative colitis. And when it properly works, it will put them into remission. But here’s the issue. If the only thing that you do is use the drug and you don’t change anything else about your life, you have something. that is contributing to dysbiosis, contributing to the manifestation of this health conditional sort of colitis. And it will, that engine is still churning. Even though you have patched up the actual like outward signs of it, the engine that drove your disease is still churning. And so what happens is these people then fail that drug, right? Like give it nine months, 12 months, they fail the drug. And you go, no, like this drug was working. Now we have to change it. We have to do something else. You go to a second drug. Well, the second drug lasts three months, right? Because the issue is their disease is actually progressing and their disease is progressing because we never turned towards addressing what’s actually causing the disease. So, the same would, I would argue the same is true when it comes to these questions of like bioidentical hormones, which is that Kimberly (35:24.735)Hmm. Kimberly (35:32.948)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (35:42.848)I want women to be well and healthy and thriving and feeling great. I want that. I also really want to address the root of these issues so that we can make you the healthiest possible person possible. And if we get you to a point where you don’t need the medicine, all medicines have side effects, all of them. If we can get you to a place where you don’t need the medicine, that’s where we should be. Kimberly (35:56.32)Yeah. Kimberly (36:01.919)Yes. Kimberly (36:06.56)I love it. I love how you bravely talk about GLP-1s as well because there’s so many doctors, Dr. Baez, know, just saying, this is great. It’s great for so many reasons. And maybe it does help for many who are in that obese category or pre-diabetic, but it’s still, I just wonder about the long-term effects and it’s not really challenging people to change their underlying lifestyle habits. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (36:38.218)If I could see the future and know what it means to take these drugs for 60 years, it would help me to understand how to properly position them. And the problem is I don’t have a crystal ball to be able to do that. And we have young people who are taking up these drugs and you must understand that first of all, there’s very firmly established side effects that like there’s risks. Kimberly (36:45.331)Right. Kimberly (37:07.882)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (37:09.344)already clearly established. like pretty much everyone that goes on these drugs gets constipation. This is one of the issues that’s going to show up automatically. and there’s other things as well, but even taking that and put it to the side, because in the short term, the benefits may outweigh the risks. But the problem is the drug company will never ever Kimberly (37:18.134)Mmm. Kimberly (37:30.473)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (37:39.01)Like hit me up when they do this because they will never ever do a study that shows us how to get you off of the drug. And if you stop the drug, the weight all comes back. So this is an unfair proposition to the vulnerable person where we’re basically saying you must take this drug and you must commit to taking this drug for the rest of your life. Because if you stop taking this drug, you’re going to gain all your weight back. So, but okay, what does that mean? We have no clue what happens beyond the first few years because we only have a few years of experience with these drugs. So what happens at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years? I mean, there’s people young enough taking these drugs right now that they might be taking them for 70 years. We have no clue what’s going to happen. Kimberly (38:46.688)There is this term in Arya Veda, Dr. B, pranayaparata, which means crime against wisdom. And we can just see, you we’re talking about clean environment when our blood is clean, when our colons are cleaned out, there’s more space for prana, shakti, whatever word you want to use, just our natural intelligence to inhabit and heal and rejuvenate. And when you’re not digesting naturally, Let’s say you’re eating a low fiber diet, besides the drugs, let’s say you’re on the carnivore diet, which I saw firsthand and you were at my house, Dr. B, when my husband was on this diet for a very short term. There’s no way someone doesn’t get constipated. There’s no way someone, at least I’ll say most people I saw in him constipation, headaches, just one of the wisdom. One of most important parts about good digestion is you’re getting the toxins out. There’s a wisdom to constantly releasing. There’s a wisdom to eating a high fiber diet, to eating all these colors and polyphenols that you’re talking about in your book. There’s a naturalness to that cycle. We take it and we masticate, we chew, we absorb, and then we also release. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (40:02.229)100 % and there is so much good that comes from that regularity of digestion because our body was designed with a rhythm. And all aspects of our life require that rhythm in order to function properly. And it’s very clear and apparent if you have a heart condition. if I, you know, and I’ve seen this firsthand in the hospital where If you flip a person out of a heart rhythm, they could be a great athlete, they could look like a million dollars and you can cripple them instantly. Like they can’t do anything. Right? Because the heart is out of rhythm. If the gut is out of rhythm, manifesting with constipation or diarrhea, are we so surprised that it has negative consequences on the rest of our body? Right? The gut microbiome cannot be healthy when the gut is out of rhythm. And it’s very clear. We’ve seen this where all you have to tell me All you have to tell me is some basic information about what a person’s poop looks like. And I can already tell you quite a bit about what’s going on with their gut microbiome. And let’s go back to 30 minutes ago, as we started the show, where I said to you, your gut microbiome is the story, the story of your life, and it impacts your physiology. if what I’m saying is that your poop Kimberly (41:16.02)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (41:23.928)tells me about your microbiome, then that means your your poop is your story too. And it tells me a lot about what’s going on. What we want is we want that to be a healthy, satisfying, complete elimination on a regular basis. And when that’s the place that we are, we feel our best. Kimberly (41:45.492)And the lack thereof of poop as well, Dr. B, right? Just not going out of that holding. It’s lack of energy, lack of vitality, lack of abundance, lack of openness. I feel like it’s harder to be in your heart. You’re more irritated. So. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (41:52.803)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (42:02.094)You know, it’s interesting the, the, some of the language that we use that I’ve used since I was a kid, language like anal, anal retentive, right? Tight ass, right? Like uptight, right? The, the very bizarre thing, Kim is that like, we have tests that we run as a gastroenterologist that can measure these types of things. Yeah. And actually like Kimberly (42:10.762)Yeah. True. Kimberly (42:25.845)Wow. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (42:30.668)this sort of pattern of people being sort of like uptight and anal retentive. they, they, you actually will find higher sphincter tone in these people. And they, and, and I do think also there’s like a personality element to this and affects the rest of their body. So it’s so fat. Again, I come back to there’s these ideas of things, observations that we’ve made for a very long time that ultimately proved to be true. Even like some things that are so casually said like that. Kimberly (42:45.012)No. Kimberly (43:07.158)Well, it’s stress, right? Stress is tension you hold. You don’t want to let go. People pulled onto resentments. They’re angry versus this letting go, the fluidity that carries throughout. I love, you know, just mentioning rhythms for a moment. If we could touch on your chapter about the circadian rhythms and how that affects gut health and… inflammation. Could you talk about meal times? You talk about sleep? Can you just give us a little overview of how living in rhythm has a powerful effect as well? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (43:43.778)Well, so first of all, before I even talk about the nerdy science side of things, I want to say to the people who are listening to us that some of the things that I’m about to say, if you do them, like I literally believe on day one, you will feel the difference. So let me start with this, that about half of our genetic code is flipping on or off at specific time points during the day. Kimberly (44:18.9)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (44:20.376)based upon our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock. In our microbiome, it’s even more than that. Research has shown that more than half of our microbes are rising and falling at specific times of day to meet the moment to make sure that your body has what it needs in order to properly function. And there’s a number of different inputs to this. So it’s not so simple as hey, here’s this one thing, right? Again, All aspects of who you are, how you live your life ultimately will be reflected in this place in your microbiome. But a, an example of this that I find to be quite fascinating is what happens in the morning, which is that overnight, your body, your brain has been producing melatonin and melatonin is the sleepy time hormone. And in our brain, that’s what allows us to get a good night’s rest. But in actually your gut, where believe it or not, you not only have melatonin, you have 400 times more melatonin in your gut than you have in your brain. And all this melatonin in your gut is helping to repair and restore the gut barrier overnight. And when it repairs and restores the gut barrier, that makes the immune system Kimberly (45:38.39)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (45:46.57)And also the gut microbes a lot stronger and healthier. So, but then the morning comes and you get up and what defines the morning? Well, we evolved with light. If you and I went camping, we would know when the day starts because the sun comes up. That’s the way that it is every single day. It’s reproducible. Right? Now the timing may vary a little bit by time of year, like this time of year, obviously it’s a little bit later. Kimberly (45:50.954)Fascinating. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (46:15.468)in the Northern Hemisphere. But the bottom line though is every single day we can count on that the sun is going to come up. And we have been actually trained where the light from the sun in the morning will actually come through our eye, hit the retina in the back of the eye and get picked up by the brain. And instantly, the body will recognize it’s no longer night. It’s now day. And it’s a switch, you actually flip. so melatonin levels, which is your sleeping time hormone, they plummet. And meanwhile, cortisol, which I am happy to discuss the nuance, your listeners probably recognize cortisol as the stress hormone. And when it’s out of balance, and at the wrong time, it has consequences. But when it is properly timed early in the morning, cortisol is 100 % your friend. And so when we make this flip, we drop our melatonin, we spike our cortisol, that cortisol is what allows us to wake up. It allows our body to like all of our different tissues to start getting active. We become more focused, more vigilant. Right? This is why I do my best writing as an author. I don’t know about you, Cam, but like for me, Kimberly (47:16.969)Mm. Kimberly (47:22.431)Mm-hmm. Kimberly (47:44.042)Yes. Me too. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (47:44.14)I write best early in the morning. Yeah, I can like, cause I can get great focus and this is the, this is the product of cortisol actually that hormone is allowing this to happen. Okay. So, the, thing about it is if you step outside, right, I’m not talking about sitting inside and flipping on your lamp and having your cup of coffee. I’m talking about stepping outside of your home and getting natural sunlight, right? Getting natural light. When you do this. Kimberly (48:11.414)Mm-hmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (48:17.294)you will increase your cortisol by 50%. And so in the beginning of this segment, I said, I believe on day one that the people who do this, they will notice and feel the difference. So here’s what I’m saying to you. If you step outside, you start making this a part of your routine in 2026, where you’re going to step outside in the morning, you will notice that you are more awake in the morning, you are more energized, you have better focus. Kimberly (48:20.918)Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (48:46.402)you have better cognitive endurance, meaning that you can get more tasks done during the day. So daytime, you become elite. And then Kimberly (48:55.946)direct sunlight, Dr. B, what if, you know, it’s cloudy out, you’re getting light. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (49:01.166)So, um, the, the sort of, uh, amount of time, the calculus on this is just like a change in how much time you have to spend out there. But the key is you can’t look out your window because the glass is actually blocking these rays because what we’re talking about is blue light. So you have to actually get outside. But, um, so on a, on a clear day, it could be five to 10 minutes on a cloudy day. would be 30. So I say, Kimberly (49:06.965)Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly (49:16.95)You have to. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (49:30.766)If you can get outside for 30 and take a walk, get some morning exercise, because light can spike it by 50%. Exercise, depending on the intensity, can spike it by 25 to 50 % in addition to that. those are the two, Kim, those are the two most powerful levers that we have for morning circadian rhythm. And they impact our gut microbiome directly. So the microbes are responsive to the fact that the shift where the basically the melatonin dries up the quarters all rises, the microbes now respond to that. But the other thing that happens is our body produces serotonin. This is why by the way, light exposure is the treatment for seasonal affective disorder. So people that are getting like depressed this time of year, the winter doldrums, light is the treatment for the reasons that I’m describing right now. Kimberly (50:23.446)Mm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (50:23.726)light light exposure increases serotonin production. And that serotonin in the brain, it that’s actually contributing to many of the benefits that we’re talking about. But also serotonin is actually the precursor to melatonin. And so that means two things. Number one, that morning light, the serotonin that you get from that in 14 hours, It will make you sleep like a baby. So if you suffer with insomnia, actually the starting point is to start getting morning sunlight. Because if you do that, it will help you to get into a natural daily bodily rhythm. And that bodily rhythm is what you actually need to get good sleep at night. But the second thing is that I serotonin is the precursor to melatonin. Let’s go back to gut, serotonin, and melatonin. Kimberly (50:56.918)Amazing. Kimberly (51:03.764)Mm-hmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (51:21.582)where we know you and I have discussed on the show in our prior episodes, that 95 % of serotonin is produced in the gut. And now what I’m saying to you is I’m going to expand beyond that to say, yes, all of the serotonin is flooding the gut and the serotonin in the gut becomes the precursor to 400 times more melatonin in the gut than we have in the brain. And that’s going to repair and restore your gut barrier at night. Kimberly (51:30.42)Yes. Kimberly (51:44.598)Mm. Kimberly (51:50.976)such intelligence in the body. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (51:53.102)Yeah, it’s a symphony. Kimberly (51:56.222)You know, when you were talking about it to Dr. B, it’s making it doable. think about dog walkers who get up and they have to take their dogs outside naturally anyway. Or I drop my kids off at school in the morning and then I play with my kindergartner in the yard for 20 minutes before he goes into class. So there’s ways in which we could make this part of our lifestyle, whether you’re a busy mom, a dog walker. Maybe you don’t have dogs or kids, but you can do your morning call or maybe drink your hot tea or your lemon water or your coffee outside. So this just becomes part of your natural lifestyle, not another thing to check off the list that feels unnatural. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (52:37.622)I think that the way that I see this is that if what I am saying to you is legitimate, then you will feel the difference so much that you will not want to give it up. It will become a non-negotiable. And that’s the way that it is for me. And if on the flip side, it doesn’t really have a meaningful impact on how you feel, then you’re not going to be as motivated. But I’m willing to throw, I’m willing to roll the dice and make a gamble. that you’re gonna feel that difference and then you’re gonna want it. I have a private community where I had a large group of people who were all doing this in the month of September every single day. And some of the stories that came out of this of healing, people healing their psoriasis, some of the stories of people improving their digestive symptoms, we didn’t change their diet. We just walked outside, it’s completely free. You just step outside your home. Kimberly (53:16.757)Mmm. Kimberly (53:23.882)Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (53:33.976)for 30 minutes in the morning. these people, I don’t have a survey to make it totally clear what percentage, they’re constantly telling me how they do this. Still to this day, many of them are bundling up in the wintertime because this is how much they’re convinced that this is necessary. Kimberly (53:50.516)Yes. That’s so beautiful. I love the experiential and also Dr. B going back to the personal, I love to close out with the personal-ness in your book, the alcohol section. I mean, we all hear now how much alcohol has gone down, thankfully, because there’s so much research and you talk about how it really does damage the gut barrier lining. But you also say, hey, I’m human and sometimes I still want to have a drink, right? Which I think is really beautiful to acknowledge. No one’s perfect. And you see this, you do the research, you’re a gastroenterologist, you’re have drinks sometimes with a friend. People are drinking sometimes in the blue zones, right? Like our friend Dan Buettner talks about. So in the morning, Dr. V, I’d love to know, are you drinking coffee? Because you like how it tastes sometimes. You’re getting the energy from the morning light, but sometimes are you also having some caffeine? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (54:51.212)well, in the event that you didn’t know this about me, Kim, I am very much obsessed with coffee. Kimberly (54:57.654)I didn’t know this. this. I love this because as we hear like, just, you know, ride the quarters all and I also since we had our how we had our cacao farm in Hawaii, Dr. B and I’ve come to visit coffee farms, I appreciate coffee, I drink it sometimes now. So you know, because sometimes people are like, well, no, no, caffeine, these blanket statements, which, you know, we’re human, can enjoy coffee and alcohol at times and still have healthy gut. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (55:23.502)I’ll make, I’ll make my argument for coffee. and, but I’ll lead by acknowledging that I’m very much biased in this space because I’ll believe any study that says the coffee is good for you. And, and, and before I say it, just, just to be, just to be completely fair, there are people that coffee is not a fit and they should not feel bad. And there are, there are alternative choices for those people. so, but like, cause, cause Kimberly (55:36.927)with Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (55:52.654)Coffee can give some people diarrhea, can create anxiety, can give you insomnia. If my wife has one cup of coffee past noon, she can’t sleep that night at all. Whereas for me, I could have cup of coffee at 10.30 at night and go to bed 15 minutes later. So. Kimberly (56:05.172)Done. Yeah. Kimberly (56:11.838)You’re one of those people who drinks coffee at the end of dinner. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (56:15.35)I don’t intentionally do that, but sometimes if we’re going out to a nice dinner and it’s like, you know how it is, it’s like so rich that you’re just like, yeah. So then I feel like kind of like trash. And so I’ll have a cup of coffee at the end of dinner just to kind of reset myself, recalibrate. But anyway, all right. So the case for coffee is this though, is that people don’t realize actually coffee is a microbiome beverage. It has a ton of stuff that’s really good for your microbes. Number one. Kimberly (56:21.045)Yeah, they are. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (56:44.172)It actually has an abundance of polyphenols. Yeah. So, I’ve talked about these four things that I’m trying to everyone, trying to get everyone to get more of. And in the category of polyphenols and antioxidants, believe it or not, the number one source of antioxidants in the American diet is coffee. Kimberly (56:44.726)to know. Mmm. Kimberly (57:01.779)Really. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (57:02.828)Yes. Now that is sad, right? Cause there’s, mean, I’ve said like fruits and vegetables are where that most, it mostly exists. And now here I am, I’m saying the number one source in our diet is coffee. So clearly we’re not getting enough fruits and vegetables. All right. But, coffee is the number one source of that. And then the second thing is coffee actually does have fiber. It’s soluble fiber. So it’s dissolved within the beverage. You wouldn’t know it’s there, but it’s there. And so there’s actually research that Kimberly (57:17.429)right. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (57:32.098)that has been done, you know that I’m, I work with a company, Zoey, that’s a personalized nutrition company. And there’s research that was done by Zoey where they discovered that coffee actually changes over a hundred different microbes and that there’s one particular bacteria called the wasana bacteria that is associated with coffee consumption where we can literally tell based upon your microbiome whether or not you’re a coffee drinker. And Kimberly (58:00.264)Wow. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (58:01.132)And coffee, the last part here is that coffee to me is the perfect way for me to end close out this conversation with something that’s really important for gut health. We’ve talked a lot about variety. Yes, variety is important. Let me talk about something else consistency. Now I’ll separate, I’ll explain cause that sounds like they’re diametrically opposed. I don’t actually see him that way, but let me explain this first. Kimberly (58:19.285)Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (58:30.496)of all of the foods that we analyze that Zoe, and we have a database of 300,000 people, the number one in terms of impacting the microbiome was coffee. Kimberly (58:46.667)Wow. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (58:47.852)Why would that be? Well, Kim, coffee, head to head, one v one against turmeric, coffee would lose coffee head to head against kale coffee would lose. But here’s the difference. We drink coffee every single day, people that are like legit coffee drinkers like myself, every single day don’t miss a day. Here’s what’s happening inside my gut. Day one, small little nudge. Thanks to the polyphenols and the fiber. Day two, another small nudge. Day three, another small nudge. And what’s happens is you get 30 days and 60 days and 90 days in, and you have really, really, really reinforced the benefits of this particular beverage through consistency. Whereas the kale, get whatever I get from the kale, but then I don’t have it again for 10 days. And I start to drift back to where I started. So. Kimberly (59:21.514)Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (59:45.794)I said that coffee, that consistency and diversity are not actually diametrically opposed. What I mean by that is that you should look to expand your diet into variety as much as possible. It’s delicious. It’s also really, really good for you. But at the same time, you should not be afraid to lean in to the habits and the routines. Kimberly (01:00:02.463)Mmm. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:00:11.128)that can really benefit you. And I see like coffee as being something that could be a daily ritual. And I also see tea as being a daily ritual that can do that. And I see smoothies as opportunity to do that. So I think like, I basically think that there’s a lot of different ways that you can fulfill that. Kimberly (01:00:24.341)was. Wow. Fascinating. I’ve never heard that with Zoe’s research. Timothy came on our podcast as well, Dr. B, and talked about some of the other research, but he didn’t get into that. It’s really fascinating. And I imagine along with other foods, if we can choose organic coffee, it would be beneficial because of pesticides. What do you think? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:00:36.098)Yeah. Yep. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:00:51.616)I mean, are we going to open this can of worms as we walk out? So the answer is yes. Yeah. So it’s a bigger topic. There’s a few arguments here. There’s a few arguments. You know, it’s funny to me when I hear people say, well, organic has pesticides too. Yeah. They’re not the same. Right? They’re not the same. Kimberly (01:00:54.72)Thank Kimberly (01:01:00.905)Okay. Kimberly (01:01:16.566)Right. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:01:17.666)There’s a difference between the pesticides with organic and the pesticides that are non-organic. And unfortunately, I’m quite concerned about the impact of glyphosate on our gut microbiome. So I just want to say this because there’s a lot of people on the internet who have very big feelings every time I start to talk about this topic. If you just simply Google, do your own research and Google glyphosate, gut microbiome. Kimberly (01:01:28.041)Yes. Kimberly (01:01:44.937)Yes. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:01:46.744)PubMed, P-U-B-M-E-D. And this will lead you to a list of many different scientific publications where the scientists, not me, are discussing the impact of glyphosate on the gut microbiome. And what you will read is it’s not pretty. All right, so anyway, so the point is that I want to stay away from that as much as I can. Kimberly (01:02:03.606)Mm-hmm. Mm. Kimberly (01:02:13.654)I love how you phrase it. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:02:16.78)As much as I can. It’s never going to be perfect. It can’t be a hundred percent, but I’m going to try to stay as far away from that as I can. organic is the way for us to accomplish that. Now that doesn’t mean that coffee is sprayed with glyphosate, but a lot of things are that you don’t even realize and it’s not on the packaging. They’re not going to tell you. So the way in which I keep myself away from that is by prioritizing organic. I also think that there’s a strong argument. If you can afford it. I mean, we all have to do what’s within our budget, right? Like I shop, I shop at Costco and Aldi’s because I have so many kids. So. Kimberly (01:02:50.922)Sure. Kimberly (01:02:55.604)and there’s so much more at Costco. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:02:58.228)can do quite a bit there. You can do quite a bit there. I can get a 10 pound bag of organic black beans for 10 bucks. So and that that feeds us for a long time. But anyway, I also think though that like if you can afford it, there’s a there’s also the environmental impact because many of these chemicals that are being sprayed, they don’t go away so easily. Kimberly (01:03:03.627)Yeah. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:03:19.95)and they linger and they impact the environment and even if it’s not on your food it still is depleting the soil and destroying this planet and that’s not what we want to hand off to future generations. Kimberly (01:03:32.564)Right, right. What affects the one affects the all because we are all one. Just where we started our discussion. Well, for what it’s worth Dr. B, this is my favorite book of yours. It’s the one that I found had so I mean, they all have so much fresh new information. But this one was really interesting, as I mentioned earlier, really easy to read because the citations are separate. Come from your heart. It’s holistic. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:03:46.006)Kimberly (01:04:02.358)It touches so many different topics. I think it’s a topic that we all need to be more well-versed in inflammation, whether we’re inflamed or we have a colleague or a family member or a friend. So I encourage all of you amazing community members who are listening to this right now to please share this episode with anyone that you think would benefit, as well as about Dr. B’s new book. Plant Power Plus, activate the power of your gut to tame inflammation and reclaim your health. Dr. B, where can we get your new book? Where can we learn more about you as well and your work? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:04:40.3)My book is available everywhere that books are sold. I, well, well, but no, but I do appreciate the opportunity because actually like, think it’s really important to try to go to your local bookstore if you can. And the reason why is, can you imagine you don’t need, I don’t need data to back this up. Can you imagine how hard their sales have been impacted by, you know, companies that can ship to your door in two days? Kimberly (01:04:43.913)I knew you were going to say this. I had to ask though. Kimberly (01:04:55.455)Agreed. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:05:09.804)So, and I’m not saying I don’t want you to order from that company. can, absolutely. I’m grateful for anyone who wants to support my work. But what I am saying is like, I want these local bookstores to still be in business five years from now. And the only, that only happens if we go and we purchase from them. So, so there’s that. And, and then you can find me, my home base is the got healthmd.com. And from that location, you can find all the different things that I do. I wear many hats and learn about the different aspects of like the different opportunities for healing. Like basically I’m trying to impact people’s lives in as many ways as possible. So, and I have a new YouTube channel, So if this is going on YouTube, we should do it as a collaboration. That’d be really cool. Kimberly (01:05:56.032)Beautiful. amazing. Kimberly (01:06:03.984)Is it the gut health MD? Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:06:06.316)Yes, my handle is at the health MD although I’ve discovered that on YouTube that’s not the same as Instagram. Like you can’t search as easily but you should be able to find me. Kimberly (01:06:15.742)Well, we will link to all those sites and links over on our show notes, mysaluna.com as well. Thank you again so much, Dr. B for being with us, for sharing your wisdom. It’s always so easy to talk to you and just so refreshing to talk to someone who genuinely cares and is passionate about helping others as you so obviously are. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:06:41.774)Well, I’m very grateful for you. You’re as I said, and I really mean this. You’re like a sister. You have like a sisterly energy for me. Um, and I also want to share that it was really funny when my cookbook came out in 2022 and I came over to Kim’s house, uh, to record a podcast together and I asked her, can you do a yoga segment with me? And I am the least flexible person on the planet. And she was walking me through yoga maneuvers that are not highly complex. They’re like pretty basic, that are good for digestion. And it’s just, I don’t know. It’s hilarious, Kim. I got a lot of work to do there. I need some help. Kimberly (01:07:05.622)was thinking about it. Kimberly (01:07:24.668)It is a really fun memory. I remember getting on the floor at my living room and doing twists. Like, come on, Dr. V, you gotta get this colon twisted. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:07:33.966)I’m like, I’m trying, I’m trying. Kimberly (01:07:37.494)Well, you’re doing amazing in so many areas and congratulations again. I’m just so happy for you and your very well deserved success. Just being a voice of real healing, holistic healing in the world. So thank you so much and thank you all so much for tuning in. Like I mentioned, please share the show with anyone and all that you think would benefit. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (01:07:52.174)I appreciate you, Kim. Thank you so much. Kimberly (01:08:02.644)The show notes again are at mysolluna.com. I’ll see you online as well at underscore Kimberly Snyder. And we’ll be back here in just a few days for our next show. Until then, take great care and sending you all so much love.

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Rachel Swanson Episode Summary In this episode, Kimberly interviews Rachel Swanson and they discuss the holistic approach to fertility and health, emphasizing the importance of understanding the body's natural intelligence. They explore the impact of technology and medical guidance on fertility, the empowerment of women in their reproductive journeys, and the significance of microbiomes in overall health. The discussion also covers metabolic health, methylation, environmental factors, and the importance of heart coherence in managing stress and enhancing fertility outcomes. Sponsors: EPISODE SPONSORS: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY DETOXY OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Rachel Swanson Resources: Book: Trying! A Science-Backed Plan to Optimize Your Fertility Website: https://www.rachelswanson.com/ Chapters 00:00 Holistic Approach to Fertility and Health 02:49 The Role of Technology and Medical Guidance in Fertility 06:05 Empowerment and Support for Women 08:57 Microbiomes: Oral and Vaginal Health 12:06 Metabolic Health and Its Impact on Fertility 14:51 Methylation and Gene Expression 17:55 Environmental Factors and Consumer Choices 20:43 The Importance of Heart Coherence and Stress Management 23:55 Conclusion and Call to Action SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript:  Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.063)Rachel, thank you so much for coming on today. Rachel (00:04.948)It is such an honor to be here with you. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:08.457)Well, I’m really excited to talk about your book, which is about fertility on the cover, but I really feel like it’s this larger plan for health and vitality. And I really appreciate you talking about that because I think it’s easy to, in all ways, our society always likes to take a fragmented approach. Let me just deal with this back pain or just sleep or just exercise versus you know, what we’re so about in our community, which is the holistic lifestyle. So what’s gonna help your, you know, overall lifestyle is going to support your fertility. And even if you’re not specifically ready to have a baby yet, just learning about some of these modalities can be helpful for other things and for later. Rachel (00:57.876)Exactly right. mean, I couldn’t have said it myself. And I guess just to, you know, to open the conversation, I mean, this could go so many different directions with what you’ve just said. But I guess, you know, from just what I’m experiencing, too, I mean, everything that you said, right, it sounds very intuitive in that sense, and it will definitely be intuitive to your community. But kind of what I’m seeing as the lay of the land and in clinic, especially, it’s like when it comes to fertility, we’re witnessing this. extraordinary tech advancement. have the AI accelerating discovery. We have multi-millions being injected into making procedures better. But Kimberly, what I find, at the same time, the guidance that we’re giving women about optimizing their own biology feels like prehistoric. I mean, it’s just there’s nothing proactive about it. There’s nothing personalized about it. so I just think that the reality is it’s become this, this topic has become this over medicalized conversation. And it’s like women are feeling behind, we’re always racing against the clock, right? I know probably someone listening to this right now will probably know that exact feeling. so it’s just, the decisions that are being made are like to start a family and to come into one’s full self. It’s like this. frantic energy when it should be coming from a state of like this abundant energy, right? This is one of the most powerful transitions a woman has and she’s like being stripped of the empowerment. So that’s ultimately why I wrote the book and why I gave it that framework that you just so eloquently spoke about because look, women deserve to understand how to leverage their body’s natural intelligence to optimize reproductive outcomes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:49.041)Yes. Well, I can say for myself that years before I even thought about having kids, I was starting to work on healing my gut health and find holistic tools for anxiety and meditation. And it wasn’t with the specific idea that it would help me get pregnant later. It was really this holistic approach, but you know, I’m really grateful and thankfully for me when I did go to have kids, it happened, you know, nearly on the, pretty much on the first try. And so what I see today is so many people unable to sleep, which is a natural function. So many people unable to poop, which is a natural function. And now we’re seeing, I mean, I read some of these numbers about, you know, IVF in your twenties. And there’s a lot of these influencers documenting their journey. They try a little bit and then it doesn’t work. And I wonder how much people are looking more deeply at some of the things we’ll talk about today, oral microbiome, vaginal microbiome, just so many factors that could help. Rachel (04:04.462)Totally, you know, and I think there’s so many biological hurdles that we’re kind of imposing on ourselves through our diet and lifestyle choices. And, you know, that’s making it harder to conceive. But if we take a step back, you know, that’s also setting us up for a more complicated pregnancy and having a lesser quality health span and a shorter lifespan. And so it kind of gets back to this point of what you do now. It’s, yes, you may not even think about, it’s setting you up for fertility or setting you up for success, but that’s exactly what it’s doing. And so, yes, to your point, if we don’t look at this deeper picture, how do we have the opportunity to kind of intervene and change the entire trajectory with what occurs afterwards? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:51.31)Rachel, are you a mom? Rachel (04:53.486)I’m not a mom. Right now I’m a mom to two amazing cats and hundreds of clients, it seems like. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:01.065)It’s really interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about being drawn to this journey? Because I’ve met some Ayurvedic doulas, several that aren’t moms as well, and their whole focus is taking care of these newborn infants and cooking for moms. And some of them have said, I feel like this is my calling. I mean, it’s really interesting. You write with such passion and you obviously… really heartfelt and wanting to support. you want it? mean, if I could ask these personal questions because I’ve always been in being a mom one day or do you feel like your service is to help women in this way? Rachel (05:32.534)Of course you can, I have an open book. Rachel (05:42.99)I absolutely will have a family one day. ideally, it will be with my child. But I see family in sort of a very different sense. I see it as people that we want to spend our entire lives with and figure out together our purpose and passion while we’re on this planet. And for a lot of people, that can look different than just having one’s own biological kids. But look, of course, I Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:52.434)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:07.325)Yes. Rachel (06:10.848)totally anticipate that being my path that I’ll go down, right, to have my own biological children. It hasn’t happened yet, but I can’t wait for it to happen. until then, I just think I do not need to be a mom in order to support other moms and support them getting pregnant. And I just felt in practice what I was seeing is women coming in and it’s like. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:29.616)Yes. Rachel (06:37.358)They were given fragmented advice. They were given such symptom-focused reactive advice from their doctors. And again, it’s like, see this as going into motherhood. I want women to sort of be the full embodiment of themselves, not in this constricted, restricted sense where they’re making all these changes from a place of fear. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:59.785)Right. Rachel (06:59.918)Right? So again, so that’s actually where the really the passion comes from. And also because like I get fired up knowing that what our conventional sort of, you know, medical system sets them up with, which is from a diet and lifestyle standpoint, nothing. It’s kind of like do whatever you you want, right? Especially if you’re going to be going under, you know, IVF or doing similar procedures of that matter. It’s like we’re we’re taught that, you know, nothing. nothing really matters. What we do sort of outside the clinic when it’s the exact opposite. I have over 400 studies proving that in the book. That’s why I was so passionate about it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:35.262)Yeah. Well, I think it’s nice to have the research to back up what we intuitively know when you go deep, deep, which is, most of all, life is a miracle. The fact that our bodies work and do all these things, we’re blinking our eyes, our hair’s growing, our liver is detoxing, our skin’s regenerating, babies are being created, it’s all a miracle. And there’s this beautiful reverence that we can have for it. And to your point, I think the lifestyle helps. to make it just more easeful for us to get out of the way, for the miracles to happen. We’re not doing it. We don’t have to make it happen. Sometimes it just feels like everything feels so forced and masculine and hardened and linear. And even if we’re, whatever pathway we’re going down, I think it’s really important to, you know, remember the miracle that this all is and soften into that. Rachel (08:35.148)You know, it’s, I love everything that you just said, and it really kind of speaks volumes. And I think it actually even speaks to the work that you do and that you help women and couples with, especially with your new book too. think that’s why this kind of blends, this conversation too, I so appreciate it because it blends so synergistically together, right? Because we’re saying the same things. We’re just kind of giving different. tools and frameworks for how to approach it and they all blend together. think it’s fantastic and that’s actually why I was looking forward to having this conversation because of that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:13.885)Beautiful. So let’s get into some specifics, Rachel. And I love all the different topics you talk about in your book. So for example, in our community, we talk a lot about gut microbiome. So we know we have amazing SBO probiotics that are clinically researched. We are large, or not everyone. I am plant-based. My kids are. A lot of our community eats largely plant-based. My husband is an omnivore. But I’m really interested how you talk about the microbiome throughout, specifically the oral, if we could start there, and then the vaginal microbiome. So a couple of weeks ago, I had an interesting podcast with Dr. Nathan Bryan. I don’t know you’re familiar with him. He’s an expert. So I’m reading the section here and I said, hey, this is the second time I’m reading this in a few weeks, talking about the correlation between mouthwash and blood pressure. Rachel (09:50.764)Yeah. Rachel (09:57.942)Yes I am. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:11.719)And I was reading this in the kitchen and our beloved housekeeper, Ms. Elena, who’s from Guatemala. said, Ms. Elena, have you gotten off the mouthwash yet? She’s like, the scope? And I’m like, yes, you have to stop. And she has blood pressure issues. And she’s like, you know, when I was growing up in Guatemala, we didn’t have all these products and all this stuff, right? It’s just, we’ve gotten so away from nature. We feel we have to sanitize everything. And as you and Dr. Brian talk about, it has huge implications for our oral microbiome. Just mouthwash, fluoride toothpaste. Rachel (10:46.12)So true. I’m so glad you kind of you segue this into the conversation because yes, I mean, just just that one study alone about the mouthwash and how, yes, it’s like we’re going to this over sanitization of all of these ecosystems that are actually there, you know, supporting us. But we’re like trying to wipe it all out, which is which is crazy. Right. So but yes, to your point that that one particular study, I mean, think about it. You’re literally stripping away. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:55.208)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:07.709)What? Rachel (11:15.618)the bacteria that’s going to help convert the nitrates and food into nitric oxide for your body. And we’re just wiping it out with all of our products, including our mouthwash. That’s why in a week, if someone uses mouthwash twice per day, it significantly increases their blood pressure. It’s just wild. Thank you for passing the message to your housekeeper and to everyone you know. It’s amazing what these little microbes can do. And so I, in the book, how it’s related to fertility is that I just see this, think of it as a Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:21.416)Yes. Rachel (11:45.25)you know, a reproductive relevant ecosystem, if you will. So if there’s dysbiosis in the mouth, just think of that as having, you’re having like a, it’s like a power imbalance among the microbes living there. If that’s coupled with inflammation that really sets the stage for what is periodontal disease, that’s actually what can spell trouble for the rest of the body and in other places besides the mouth. And so. I talk about it in the context of fertility, but you’ll also hear about it in the context of other diseases. It’s also associated with cancer. It’s associated with neurodegenerative disease. It’s associated with heart disease. So again, it’s like, yes, I’m zooming in and putting all the research behind how it relates to fertility and how it relates to optimizing reproductive function. But I just want everyone to know that everything that you and I are going to talk about today and everything that’s in the book. It has so much relevance outside of fertility, doesn’t it? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:42.121)I’m laughing Rachel because it is so hard to get my sons to brush their teeth. And I had the Pokemon toothbrush that they love. We are a fluoride free family. I love that bokeh, alpha hydroxy appetite. have kids flavors. So I make their toothpaste taste as good as possible. I don’t know what it is. Rachel (12:57.376)You had everything. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:11.005)what kids don’t like to brush their teeth. Rachel (13:14.508)Nope, not at all. almost have to, you know, it has to be sort of a state where like they are so happy, but also like willing to stand still or sit still for two seconds, right? But it’s like, you could only do the best you can as mom, which is getting all of these amazing, you know, toothbrushes and basically everything you can, but in the most natural way, just to, you know, get a little swipe here and there, right? Get like one tooth floss, but yeah, I get it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:24.852)my god. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:41.661)Well, on the other hand, I’m happy to say my kids drink the Glowing Green Smoothie. I took a picture yesterday of my younger son eating his large strands. We cut it in certain way of his kale salad. So it’s really great to start your kids young, I think, not to get off track here as much as possible with these simple plant-based foods. And even if I have a lot of moms writing in that their kids are struggling, We also have a lot of family-friendly recipes, Rachel, because my older one starts to get into foods that taste good, other sorts of treats, but there really is such amazing creative ways to bring it back. So back to your point, this is a whole lifestyle. It’s for fertility, it’s for families, it’s for just us being healthy in general, all these factors, oral microbiome, not to get off track, and also… vaginal microbiome, which I love that you talk about this. I love that you talk about products, the types of things that we’re using with our periods. I just did a full reset, Rachel, only organic underwear, because you start reading about the pesticides and cotton, right? Like the off gassing. So tell us a little bit about, you know, how these products and chemicals and Rachel (14:56.22)amazing. Well done. Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:09.659)other ways in which we affect our vaginal microbiome and how we can support it. Rachel (15:14.256)I can’t wait. But I guess to seal up the little present of the oral microbiome, you know, I just have to I have to say, look at also all the other things that you’re doing, you know, with your children and the diet that they have. Remember, diet is the lever, like the biggest leverage point for for a healthy oral microbiome. You know, when I did my clinical rotations for my license, it was so cool. One of the rotations that we did was at. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:30.322)Yes. Rachel (15:40.532)NYU School of Pediatric Dentistry, which was like wild that we were even able to have that rotation. And so basically what I was seeing every single day are like, my God, these poor like little kids coming in mouthfuls of cavities. you know, it’s because, you know, their parents were giving them soda all day long, or they were falling asleep with like a little juice bottle that was like rotting out their teeth and having so much candy. So I just think like, I know sometimes the biggest struggle will feel like brushing someone’s teeth, but look at how much you’re doing. And that’s really kind of controlling the oral environment. It really kind of comes down to diet. So, okay, next to the next present, this reproductive relevant ecosystem. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, it’s the vaginal microbiome. there is newer research on this sort of, again, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:21.457)Yeah. Thank you for. Rachel (16:36.148)ecosystem that no one’s really talking about, but it has major implications for fertility outcomes. this is where for us women, signs and symptoms are our opportunity to kind of listen to what the body is telling us, right? We just have to be receptive to that communication. So a lot of women, luckily, they know if they’re experiencing something that’s abnormal, right? Or they’re having reoccurring symptoms. This is our way, this is our body telling us, like, it could use a little assistance, right? There could. Yes, yeast infections, bacterial vaginosis, these type of infections. And all I could say like, look, there might be like a little, you know, hostile takeover situation happening among these microbes. And lucky for us, we can measure that now at home with like a DIY swab kit. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:08.617)When you say symptoms, do you mean yeast infections specifically? Rachel (17:31.886)right, that we can send back to the lab. It’s amazing. And I guess to just kind of bring this back to a bigger picture, you know, if I were giving getting IVF, but I was having, you reoccurring symptoms for years where I was kind of in and out of the OB-GYN, having to take my antibiotics, this and that, I would sure as heck, you know, do a $200 test kit before spending tens of thousands of dollars on IVF, considering there are certain community state types. It’s called that influence IVF success. Do you see how wild this is? How we can do so much to optimize our own ecosystem, but we aren’t. We’re just kind of, to your earlier point, 10 minutes ago, it’s like we’re not really kind of trying to discover any deeper root causes or anything of that nature. But anyway, I find this really fascinating. And to your point, the products that we’re using, and I love how you just kind of did like an overhaul of all the undergarments. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:15.375)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:20.194)It is. Rachel (18:28.31)A lot of the products that we’re using, unfortunately, I think of it as kind of, in a way, running interference on our bodies’ natural intelligence, right? So what can happen is that all of the products that we’re using, like douching and all these cleansing products, it can strip out the protective species. And what happens is that really sets the stage for more opportunistic bacteria to kind of take hold and cause problems. So yeah, it’s all about this conscious. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:36.851)Yo. Rachel (18:58.222)consumerism really, it’s like all the products that we’re putting in and around that area. mean, heck, we can put estrogen cream and other hormone creams to get absorbed. Like how could we not think that’s happening with all the other products that we’re putting down there, right? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:13.843)Well, so it’s funny that you say that word, douching. Rachel, I’m sorry, it’s a funny word. Is it still popular? Rachel (19:24.266)There’s a lot more people that do it than you think. mean, so much so it’s even mentioned in some of these scientific articles of what potentially can strip away bacteria. think you and I are so fortunate that we kind of almost live in these bubbles where it’s just like. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:29.683)Really? Rachel (19:46.454)We couldn’t think of doing that. And it’s like our entire community is like, we already know that we shouldn’t be stripping away all of this beneficial bacteria. But yeah, I mean, all of this is still very, very popular. I mean, just go into any CVS, look at all just the cleansing products there is, right? It’s nice. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:00.446)Right. Well, the good news is this saves money, right? Get rid of the mouthwash, sweep the fluoride free, toothpaste, do not douche, straight up. And then, you know, some of the things you talk about in here, go fragrance free in soaps, body care products, be careful of chemicals in your period products. I use a cup, but if you’re using tampons, make sure that they’re, you know, Rachel (20:08.065)Hahaha Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:34.073)I mean, there’s some crazy stuff in cotton, which I’ve read about recently, which is why I switched to organic underwear, lubricants you talk about, and of course, taking care of our gut microbiome with diet probiotics and so on. Rachel (20:42.125)Yeah. Rachel (20:48.404)Exactly. And I guess one about the the period products, I know we we like automatically our mind jumps to tampons, pads, these sort of things. And, gosh, I actually really hate saying this because I’m so like pro innovation, right. And it was products that help women out. But I kind of think about like all of these brands that are doing this this underwear that like helps to like absorb the blood right during the menstrual cycle. And in reality, like think of how that’s Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:13.852)Yeah. Rachel (21:17.134)possible, like think about how many chemicals that takes to be able to do that. So a lot of these period products unfortunately have a lot of the forever chemicals, the PFAS and like that. And so yeah, it’s a lot. And I think that was kind of a lesser known fact and it definitely surprised me as well. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:27.943)Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:37.501)Well, what do you think about cups? Because it makes sense to me, environmentally, I just wash it out. Rachel (21:44.182)Yeah, yep. So that’s seen as kind of the, you know, one of the best options in that category, right, of all the options that we do have. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:52.679)Yeah. Okay. All right. So let’s, let’s move on, Rachel. Let’s talk about, I love, you know, metabolic health again, back to our overall vitality body composition. And can you speak a little bit how this is related to our overall health and our ability to do natural functions such as get pregnant and have babies. Rachel (22:18.036)Yeah, absolutely. Metabolic health, think, well, to take a step back before we kind of dive too clinical into what this means, I like to think of it as, you know, it just has to do with the flow of energy through our system, right? I mean, that’s what it’s all about. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:33.147)Yeah, but under our spells, our prana, essentially. Rachel (22:37.28)Yeah, thank you for that. So when there’s an imbalance here with our metabolic health, clinically we call that metabolic dysfunction. It’s basically an energetic blockage in our body and it really can interfere with our goal of getting pregnant. I’ll give you just a few examples of what the research has found. Metabolic dysfunction, you know, that can impact egg quality, sperm quality, embryo quality. It can interfere with hormones, the hormonal communication, which influences our monthly cycles, including ovulation, of course, which is necessary to get pregnant. It impacts our chances of conceiving. It impacts our chances of IVF. It can increase complications in our pregnancy. And this also, this conversation also applies to men as well, right? So there, if they have metabolic health or whether they have metabolic dysfunction, this can impact our ability to get pregnant as well as complications we can experience during pregnancy, which is wild. So why do I bring this up? Again, maybe this doesn’t really apply to a lot of your community members. Maybe it does, but let’s look at the country. And in terms of the country stats, know, one in 10 people approximately. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:34.889)Yeah. Rachel (23:51.498)in this country are defined as metabolically healthy, which means I’m like, hey, Kimberly, 90 % of us might have this opportunity to optimize our body in a way that’s going to get us closer to our goal. So there’s a few biomarkers that I speak about in the book that kind of tells us, hey, how is this system functioning? How is energy flowing through our body? And I specifically talk about blood sugar, like knowing your fasting blood sugar, also knowing your Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:59.945)Yeah. Rachel (24:21.102)HbA1c, which is like a three month report card of your blood sugar and knowing your insulin levels. The reason I just I think insulin is so gosh darn important is because, you know, insulin resistance means our cells aren’t responding properly to this hormone, right, as it should. This is what underlies PCOS, which for goodness sakes is the number one cause of anovulatory infertility globally. Right. So that’s what Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:26.983)Mm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:44.04)What? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:48.777)It’s growing too, right Rachel? Is it not going up? Rachel (24:50.824)Yes. So that’s why I actually take this so seriously in the book. And I’m like, we can nourish ourselves in a way that can facilitate better energy production in our body. And of course, there’s the entire chapter on it. There’s action plans, there’s everything and how to personalize it for your body. But that’s kind of just, again, the lay of the land and kind of what we’re dealing with and the opportunity. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:56.445)Yeah. Rachel (25:17.816)that we have to optimize our physiology in our favor. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:22.065)And you also talk about that in regards to methylation, gene selection. And that also is a larger topic around lifestyle, how we eat. Can you touch on methylation briefly? Rachel (25:34.286)my gosh, you bet it is. So methylation, think of this as the process by which your choices, like your food choices, your thoughts, your environment, your stress levels, it essentially can think of it like speaking to your DNA. So we can’t change the genomic sequencing, but we can change how DNA is expressed, which is heritable. That means it’s passed out to your child. And so we can actively create this internal environment. that’s full of vitality and that we can literally pass this vitality down to our child. Think about the health crisis, our children, and teens who are involved in too. I just think we have a responsibility here and that starts with preconception health. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:07.271)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:18.791)You know, it also, I really think, includes heart coherence, Rachel. Think about the difference when you’re in your heart and you’re connected to yourself, to your partner, to others. You’re less likely to eat crappy food. You have these loving thoughts. There’s all the research about heart coherence as well with the hormonal balance and just the energy opening up. So that part too, I think, preparing for preconception is making sure you create stability in your environment. you work through certain things. No one’s gonna be in a, you it doesn’t have to be perfect, but I think all of this is part of that totality. Rachel (26:58.124)You know what, Kimberly, this is why we need you here on this planet. We need your work and we need your books because for goodness sake, I mean, that’s it’s such a cornerstone of what we’re trying to accomplish here. And if we don’t put in the work with exactly what you’re describing, everything else is going to seem so much harder again. So, I mean, I guess I guess I’m here shouting out your book because it’s like everyone can take those little moments for themselves and Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:18.258)You Rachel (27:26.382)put their physiology in a better place, right? That is kind of what’s most surprising to me. I know in the book we talk about, say, like the environmental chemicals as an example, right? And all of these stressors in the environment. But here, what you’re talking about, I’m like, this is actually the most underrepresented topic when it comes to of toxic, is toxins in general, because it’s like. How are we speaking to ourselves? How much stress are we dealing with? What are our self-limiting beliefs, right? So on and so forth. I think we could talk about it now or just on that subject alone. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:55.113)It’s. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:02.429)I feel like heart and head can work together, right? Knowing the facts, knowing the research, feeling confident that you’re doing everything for your oral microbiome, for methylation, and it’s important to have that knowledge. And then I think it’s also important to marry it with your heart being in it because as we know, stress can really affect fertility and outcomes and stress affects us in our life overall. So I’m really glad you take such a holistic approach to Rachel. Rachel (28:32.896)Yeah, it’s this is this what it’s it’s all about. You know, I always speak to the science. Obviously, the book is crazy evidence based and so many citations. But look, again, this is just validating this kind of like this ancient wisdom to the intelligence that you’re speaking about right now. Right. It’s just kind of, you know, putting evidence behind it. But we all of this, we know it to be true. Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:58.909)Yes, we’re all a miracle. The fact that we’re here. And sometimes again, I think we move away from that and there’s so much fear and panic and anxiety if you start to get too much down the rabbit hole on Google or social media feeds. So, I really appreciate you bringing your wisdom, but also your heart, The through line I always say of our guests and our show, and I can really tell as I’m reviewing all these books, is the authenticity and wanting to help. And obviously you really do have so much love in your heart to want to support other women. And it comes through in the book, it comes through in the way, the clarity and also the succinctness, I will say, with which you write. Because, you know, people are pretty busy and You you say a lot in a readable book, and I think that’s really important to offer people as well. Rachel (30:01.902)I mean, Kimberly, if I told you, like, I don’t even want to admit how many years that took in order to do that and how many rewrites. I mean, it’s almost embarrassing when I think about it. So you saying that is like the biggest compliment for me. Because again, over three years, like rewriting, rewriting to just kind of, you know, get this message so succinctly, having women being able to optimize their physiology in a way that’s, you know, actionable. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:12.403)No. Rachel (30:31.79)You know, not just woo woo, but like really also putting evidence behind everything again that your book talks about. It’s amazing. It’s this sort of synergistic energy that we can bring to help lift up other women. So thank you so much for having this conversation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:47.817)Well, thank you so much, Rachel. And I had to say, I’m looking forward to when you do become a mom, because you are going to be this living embodiment of all this work and all your teachings as well, when it’s meant to happen at perfect divine timing. Share with us, Rachel, where we can get your book, Trying a Science-Based Plan. Rachel (31:01.87)Thank you. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:12.861)to optimize your fertility and I’m smiling because it’s science-based, but there’s so much heart in it. Your work where we can find out more about you, your book, your work and so on. Rachel (31:23.648)Yes, my gosh, so please pre-order the book. It’s on Amazon. It’s there waiting for you. And you can find out more information on my website, rachelswanson.com. My Instagram is at Rachel’sRx. I’m going to be getting a lot more social with this book launch, because I’m used to being behind the scenes, right, in clinic, kind of one-to-one care. But I’ll be coming out of the woodworks more. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:42.418)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:46.781)So amazing. Well, the world needs your heart, Rachel, and congratulations on your first book. Thank you so much for sharing your, again, your wisdom and your heart. Thank you everyone so much for tuning in. I encourage you to share this episode with anyone that you know that is trying to conceive, that is looking to optimize their health and wellness as you heard today. This isn’t just about fertility, but whole body well-being. think all the information we talked about with the microbiome and the oral microbiome could really help so many people. So please share the show. Our show notes will be at mysaloona.com where we will link directly to Rachel’s book and her work, as well as other articles and shows I think you would enjoy. We will be back here in just a few days. I’ll also see you on social at underscore Kimberly Snyder. Till then take great care and sending you all so much love.  

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Grant Elliot Episode Summary In this episode, Dr. Grant discusses his personal journey from being a competitive athlete to becoming a chiropractor focused on pain management. He emphasizes the importance of movement as a form of medicine, the impact of beliefs on pain perception, and the need for a holistic approach to treatment. The discussion covers the complexities of lower back pain, the risks associated with surgery, and the significance of unique movements in rehabilitation. Dr. Grant also highlights the emotional factors that contribute to pain and offers insights into managing hip pain, particularly in relation to pregnancy. He concludes by providing practical advice on time commitment for pain management and resources for further assistance. Sponsors: LMNT OFFER: Right now, for my listeners LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any LMNT drink mix purchase at DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD. That’s 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT any LMNT drink mix purchase. This deal is only available through my link so. Also try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. USE LINK: DrinkLMNT.com/FEELGOOD Feel Good Digestive Enzymes OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Dr. Grant Elliot Resources: Website: therehabfix.com Social: @rehabfix Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage 00:13 Exploring Wellness and Nutrition 00:16 Introduction to Pain and Healing 03:21 The Journey to Chiropractic Care 06:23 Understanding Lower Back Pain 09:12 The Mechanics of Movement 12:26 The Role of Perception in Pain 15:18 Surgery vs. Conservative Care 18:22 Movement as Medicine 20:44 Understanding Pain: Beyond Posture 24:29 The Emotional Impact on Pain 29:05 The Multifactorial Nature of Back Pain 29:57 Exploring Hip Pain and Its Connections 34:14 Efficient Movement Protocols for Pain Relief 37:12 Resources for Pain Management and Assessment SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: speaker-0 (00:00.257) Welcome to the Feel Good Podcast, which is all about heart led living and wellness. When we awaken the power of our hearts and let that guide us through our daily choices and decisions, through our four cornerstones, food, body, emotional well-being and spiritual growth, we will experience the most incredible results and create more vitality, health, strength, peace, abundance and love in our lives. I am your host, Kimberly Snyder, New York Times bestselling author, founder of Saluna, creator of the research-based Heart Aligned Meditation, wellness expert, nutritionist, and international speaker. I am passionate about supporting you on your unique heart and wellness journey. Let's get started. speaker-1 (00:57.518) Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday Interview Show. Very excited to share a conversation with you here today with Dr. Grant Elliott, who is a pain rehab specialist. He is the founder of RehabFix and he specializes specifically in back pain, sciatica, avoiding surgery. In fact, he says 97 % of people don't actually need the back surgery that they're prescribed. He's worked with many different prominent wellness and other types of people, including Dr. Andrew Huberman, helping to relieve pain through simple lifestyle practices and movement, which we'll get into today. Now, I was interested in doing the show because I think pain is really pervasive. If you start to listen to loved ones, to friends, colleagues, you'll start to notice a lot of people complaining about pain. And so the strategies we talk about today are accessible and again, can be a really powerful way to avoid surgery. So I'm really excited to share today's show with you. Whether you have pain or not, this is information that can really be useful to you and also loved ones around you. Before we get into the conversation though, a little reminder that our notes are at mysaloonit.com. We will link to our... links and research that we talk about on today's show, as well as other podcasts, articles that I think you would enjoy. You can also sign up for our newsletter on there to stay on top of our community happenings. We send out so much amazing information, including free recipes, promotions for our saluna digestion focused supplements, which are a really powerful way to elevate your lifestyle. Also, Free community Zooms, we'll have one coming up in January. I'm doing a couple of retreats next year. So it's a great idea to come deeper into our community by joining our newsletter. I also thank you in advance for taking just a minute out of your day to leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen, which is an amazing way to support the show. Also by sharing this episode or the show in general with anyone that you think would benefit. speaker-1 (03:17.57) All right, all that being said, let's get into our conversation today with pain specialist, Dr. Grant Elliott. Grant, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm very excited to chat with you. Yeah, likewise. Thank you so much for having me. I think your work is fascinating because you're working with a body in such an intelligent, integrated way that many of your clients are not only reducing pain, but they're also reducing their amounts of surgery that they have to get. So I think it's really fascinating what you're doing, but before we dive in, I'm interested how you even were drawn to this line of work in the first place. Did you experience a lot of pain? Did you have it around you? What did your path entail? a few series of interconnected events. I would say the first one was, you know, growing up, me and my brothers were boys in athletics, always, you know, fitness aware, health aware, I would say. And I saw a common trend amongst pretty much all of my grandparents, which were declining health, pill for this, pill for that, injection for this, injection for that, surgery for this. And even at a younger age, I kind of observed that and I was like, you know, what if like you tried speaker-0 (04:35.8) getting healthy, know, novel concept. But I kind of like saw that even at a younger age. once I was in like middle school, high school, and I kind of was starting to think about what do I want to do? And I knew I wanted to go into some form of health fitness related thing. Well, when I was in high school, I was a competitive cyclist and I was doing cross country mountain bike racing and I was good. I was doing scholarship opportunities. and I was, I was competitive. I was good. I started dealing with a little back pain and this back pain started insidiously, which is the most common way back pain comes up. Kind of we, we kind of start to notice it. We wake up with it one day and it starts to last a little bit longer, a little bit longer. And then a few weeks, a few months go by and we realize, Hey, this thing is kind of not going away. This is a majority of scenarios. And that was kind of me. It hurt the most during my races. during my highest output, I'm gonna bend over position, pushing myself hard. And it started to get to the point where within 15, 20 minutes into my race, which they were normally an hour and a half to two hours, my low back just felt so like swelled up and pumped and stiff and achy. had to get off the course, I had to get off the trail, go into the woods, start doing some stretches in the woods to be able to get back on and continue. And I was doing that over almost every 10 minutes. And as you can imagine, you're not competitive anymore if you do that. So I went from winning almost every race, usually first or second every race, to going worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. And so my dad was like, hey, chiropractors, they're the low back specialists. Let's go see one. And what I know now is that we went to see what we would consider a old school, traditional type chiropractor where it's the here's your x-ray, your spine's crooked. You got to come see me multiple times a week. And we didn't know any better. A lot of people don't. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not the most effective form of care. And which is what we're going to talk about today. And so I did that and surprise, surprise, did not get relief, didn't get better. So my performance continued to decline. And so I eventually just stopped racing, lost my scholarships. speaker-1 (06:55.264) It's so hard mentally. Yeah, it's, it's frustrating. Like with anyone, if you're a, you know, a hundred percent into something and you're finding identity in that and you're viewing that as, Hey, this is going to pay for my school. Yeah. Well, you know, there's some attachment to the hat. Um, so that was difficult and yep, that's kind of where I found myself. And then I just had to find a different outlet for athleticism and fitness. So just started working out, just went to a gym. never had a formal gym membership. Uh, at that point I was just in sports. So I joined a local gym, was working out, and I started to notice this one individual there who was doing unique movements, unique like warm-up drills, mobility drills, like activation drills, just unique movements that I hadn't seen before. So I approached him, talked to him, developed a relationship, and he ended up being a chiropractor. So I made the comment to him. I was like, hey, you know what? Like, the things you're doing, like, I've never seen them before, the way you talk, just the things you talk about. seemed completely different than my experience with a chiropractor. And he was like, well, I think he should come shadow me. So I went and shadowed him. And I saw my first example of an evidence-based chiropractor, which is, you know, including rehab and manual therapies and a lot of education, movement education, helping people to become independent as quickly as possible by teaching them how to fix themselves. I witnessed that and I realized, okay, if this is what I had had, probably wouldn't have quit racing. I probably wouldn't have lost my scholarships and my situation would be different. And so that motivated me to become a chiropractor to ensure that I could prevent as many people as possible from having the situation that I did. And that is what ultimately led me to this field. speaker-1 (08:44.238) What an amazing journey, know, the saying the wounded healer, if you hadn't gone through those experiences, maybe you wouldn't be so passionate about the work that you're doing because you lived through that loss and that attachment and pain for so long. Yeah, it definitely creates motivation to say the least. And so it was really just the drive for like, Hey, I wasn't a success. I was a failure. And so I just want to make sure I can go into this, be the best version of this so I can help as many people as possible and reduce the number of failures. Because I quickly realized, and this applies to any profession, any profession of any kind, the majority of any profession is average. I'm seeing all these individuals with low back pain specifically go to their general provider and get general advice and go to general chiro, chiros and general PTs and just get like, you know, kind of just generic stuff. And I was like, yeah, well, this isn't working because low back pain is the number one disability in the world. And so that just, you know, made me put my a hundred percent focus into being a rehab evidence movement based provider for that to do my part of making a dent in it, so to speak. So a couple of things in your story that were interesting, one is that you were a super athlete, sounded like you were training all the time and you got lower back pain. And sometimes we hear, sitting is the new smoking. So lower back pain can affect people that are very active and on the flip side, people that aren't moving very much at all. Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah. And, the term sitting is the new smoking. Actually not a huge fan of that term because there's really, there's really nothing wrong with sitting. The issue is if we stay in the same position too long and we don't move enough, that's the main issue. If you sit for eight hours straight and you don't move, you don't exercise. All right. Yeah. You're smoking, but if you happen to sit at work throughout the day, but you take frequent breaks and you have an exercise routine and you get your walks in, then there's nothing wrong with, you know, speaker-0 (10:51.352) But to your point, yes, obviously anyone who is moving more is healthier, in better shape. That's going to reduce their incidence of injury and chronic disease and all the things that go with it. That is obviously a given, but that does not mean they're immune to it. Not at all. And so we see two main things as know, individuals who are very active, who are pushing themselves, there's usually common patterns that they either fell into or doing that can still perpetuate. low back issues, can still create these symptoms to occur. And then on the other side, like you said, people who are not moving enough, who are just sitting all day, not getting the right movements, don't have mobility routines, yeah, they're also suffering. And what we do know is that, yes, the healthier you are, the more like you are, that the easier these things are to overcome. it's, you know, the couch potatoes, frankly, that have the highest incidence of injury for sure. And yeah, that's not a good recipe for any form of health. Can you share with us anatomically, you say lower back is where a lot of people feel pain. Why is it the lower back, the couch potatoes and all kinds of athletic people versus let's say the shoulders and the upper back since we might be looking down a lot on our phones or computers or driving. What is it about the lower back do you think? Yep. There's two main components here. One is a mechanical perspective and then the other one is a societal conditioning belief perspective. And so what I mean by this is one, our lower back, it's the primary lever arm for all movement. So if I sit, that's where majority of the force is going. If I stand and I bend forward, that's where a majority of the leverage is going. If I'm reaching out to, you know, pick something off the ground or catch something that's still pulling on my lower back, it's the It's a primary lever arm. We use it for everything. It is involved in every position. So therefore it has the most amount of stress on it. Now, one thing I want to say there is don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that stress is bad for your lower back. Stress is good for us. Stress is good for our muscles, for our bones. When our muscles are under stress, they grow and they get stronger. When our bones are under stress, they grow and get stronger. When our low back is under stress, it can still grow and adapt and get stronger. speaker-0 (13:12.46) It is still a primary lever and it still is stressed the most. You combine that with a societal belief, a societal narrative that's very, very negative about lower back pain and that creates the number one disability in the world, which it is. 80 % of human beings alive will experience low back pain at some point in their life. It is the number one disability. It costs over $100 billion in healthcare expenses and everything. It's massive. It is massive. What I mean by the second point there is if someone, let's just say hurts their elbow, they're telling their friends, they're telling their family, nobody's freaking out. They're probably just saying, that sucks. I'm sure it'll be better in a week or two. Right. You know, it's, no big deal. But the belief system, the narrative about low back pain is such that as someone says, I hurt my low back, then people are responding. my gosh. Should you go get imaging? my gosh. My. My aunt Susie got a back issue and she was never the same for 10 years. She's using a walker now. She didn't get surgery. It's there's all these really, really negative narratives about lower back pain because it's so misunderstood. So well, people don't realize is pain is common. And to a certain extent, pain is normal. It's a part of the normal human experience, but it's how we interpret that pain. And it's what we do with that pain that determines where we go and determines the level of disability and suffering we might occur. So, yeah, somewhat out there, let's say for the last 10 years, they've heard all these horror stories about people and their family who dealt with low back issues or their friends, families who dealt with low back issues. Let's just say that's ingrained in their mind of, my gosh, back issues, super bad, super serious life altering. And that's ingrained in their mind. That's their belief system. Okay, now let's take a very normal incident. Someone is, let's say moderately active. And then there's a particular day where they're working in the garden two extra hours. They sit at work a couple extra hours. They're not moving as much as they normally would have. They have had a really stressful week. They ate maybe a few more inflammatory foods than they otherwise should have. And then, my gosh, I gotta go, you know, move all these boxes, help my friends move. It's a lot of work that maybe their lower back is not used to. And they go to bed and they wake up and... speaker-0 (15:39.278) They're a little back sore. No big deal. No big deal. But because of their belief system, what they've heard for years, they take that very normal, very common experience and they catastrophize it. It's, my gosh, it's doomsday. I just woke up and I'm experienced back pain. This is bad. I need to run to the hospital. I need to run to my doctor. I need to run to imaging. option. It's the perception and that creates an avalanche and a spiral that people get trapped into and it leads them to the wrong forms of care extremely quickly. And that's what turns it into a chronic issue. speaker-1 (16:27.872) Even in these winter months, hydration cannot be forgotten. We don't want our skin and hair to become dried and frayed and for our energy to start to lag. Hydration is about water and also electrolytes, which need to be replenished regularly. You can do that through your diet and also by the insurance of drinking a daily element electrolyte pack. This is something I do as part of my morning practice. Now, in the morning when I drink my room temperature water, I add a element packet in, usually watermelon or raspberry, which are my favorite flavors. And what I find is that it supports consistent energy. It wards off fatigue and it helps my skin to glow. I love the element brand because it contains a science-backed mix of magnesium, sodium and potassium. It doesn't have added sugars or fillers or preservatives. And right now for our amazing community to get in on this. 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Key benefits and ingredients include enhancing digestion and assisting in the absorption of critical nutrients, delivering two to three times more lipase versus other top formulas, speaker-1 (18:49.784) for optimal fat metabolism, including specialized enzymes to help break down plant fiber, helping to reduce bloating, gas, and other sources of digestive distress, providing powerful anti-Candida enzymes for faster healing and detox. Please go to mysaluna.com and use code PODFAM15 for 15 % off your entire order, including these amazing digestive enzymes. Once again, that's mysaluna.com with the code PODFAM15. MySOLLuna.com, code PODFAM15 for 15 % off your entire order. speaker-1 (19:35.63) It's also kind of scary how, I don't want to say knife happy or prone to recommending surgery. A lot of doctors are right off the bat. I have heard, I know people who have gotten back surgery and it said that they said it didn't really help their pain. They still had the same issues. But to your point, when you perceive that something's really scary and wrong, you can be more susceptible to agreeing to surgery without exploring some of these other means. And that is Oof, that is pretty scary. Yep. So we're the number one online low back program in the world. We have over 200 consultations a week with people all over and we get clients every single week who have had one to three surgeries already on their lower back and are in the exact same position or worse positions. Wow. And if we look at what the evidence shows, the evidence is really clear. They call it the third, third, third rule. The goal of a good surgeon is that 30 % of the individuals that undergo low back surgery would be deemed success, which just means their outcomes improve. 30 % of people improving is a good goal. About 30 % will stay the same. No change, just as much pain, no change. But now they've undergone an irreversible procedure. Yeah. And then about 30 % will be worse. So when we average these out, the failure rate is around 50 % or more. my god. speaker-0 (21:04.204) And then what we see is that with every consecutive surgery that is performed, the risk of chronic pain and the outcomes only go down. They get worse and worse and worse with every consecutive surgery. But how does this contrast with what the evidence shows us? And this is why it's so important to understand the evidence and to be an evidence-based provider so that you can have the knowledge and be equipped to make the right decisions. We know that 97 % of lumbar disc herniations, which is one of the most common lower back issues that are operated on, 97 % can recover without surgery. No surgery needed. Wow. the movements that you were talking about. Yes, conservative therapy. only about 3 % of people with painful lumbar disc herniations will require surgery. But I'm telling you this, there's no way, there's no chance if you take the average percentage of lumbar surgeries performed across the world, there is no way it's 3 % of individuals. It is way more than that. Way more. So, surgeons are performing surgeries that are not indicated. Surgeons do not know the clinical indication for surgery, which is crazy to think about, but a lot of them don't. And yeah, it's, you know, this is what I do. This is what I get paid to do, which there's nothing wrong doing what you get paid to do. There's nothing wrong with that. But if, you know, they're not taking into consideration clinical protocols and clinical indications and any MRI they get, that shows a disc, regardless of if the disc is symptomatic or not, they're saying, hey, it's my job to cut this out. speaker-0 (22:39.384) then we're gonna get a lot of really, really poor outcomes. And this is what we're seeing in healthcare. Wow. So going back to, I like this phrase you used earlier, unique movements. And in our society, the way we move is very linear front and back. You mentioned you having a healthy lifestyle moving in general. Some of your videos on your Instagram channel are unique. And I think, know, interesting, but also a lot of them are quite accessible. There's some circular movements, there's different ways in which we move. So can you talk a little bit about your philosophy? I know there's so many different exercises, but moving with in unique ways and how that can help the pain. Yeah, here's the most important and easiest lesson we can, you know, describe in a verbal format. So first and foremost, we all need to understand that movement is medicine. Movement is medicine. Now, with that being said, different movements are different forms of medicine. There's going to be certain movements that are beneficial to someone, and right now I'm primarily talking about people who have pain. They have sciatica, they have a disc herniation, they're symptomatic. Certain movements will make them feel better and certain movements will make them feel worse. So movement is medicine, but different movements are different forms of medicine. And we want to find the right medicine for that person at the right dosage and at the right frequency. Just like your pharmacist would do for an alternative condition, you want to treat movement the same. So yes, movement is medicine, but just understand speaker-0 (24:19.448) my gosh, I tried movement and I'm flared up and I'm worse and my gosh, movement won't help me. That is not true. That is not true. You have to find the right medicine, just like you would for any particular condition. Now, with that being said, the easiest way to evaluate one's movement is to think, okay, what are we doing the most of throughout our day? We need to think about this. So for a majority of individuals, they're going to fall into a category where we are sitting most of the day, which once again, there's Nothing inherently wrong with that. It's if we don't do anything about it that creates the issue. But if we're sitting most of the day, think about the position that that puts our body in and various joints. So most of us are probably sitting right now. Let's think about this. Your knees are bent. Your hips are flexed, meaning your knees are closer to your torso. So there's a short angle in your hip flexors. Your lower back is probably rounded forward. Your mid back is probably rounded forward. Your shoulders are probably rounded forward. This is a position the majority of us are going to be in. So here's how we think about it is if that is the position that our joints and our muscles are getting the most of throughout the day, we want to do the opposite of those motions to undo the stress and the forces that are placed on them. It's like, I'm, imagine I'm bending, this might be a silly example, but sometimes silly and basic examples work the best. Imagine there's a moldable piece of aluminum, let's say, okay? And we're kind of pushing it one direction. We're pushing a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And it's slowly bending to the side. You're thinking, okay, that piece of aluminum, that's not very straight anymore. How do we straighten it back up? By bending it the other way. So, If our low back and our hips, let's say, if they're getting a whole lot of one motion, one motion, one motion, one motion, a majority of the day, you're putting stressors on that that are, you know, might eventually put it in a position where, hey, we can't tolerate this anymore. So we got to start to bend it back the other way to get it straight. And that's the concept of doing more of the opposite, doing more of the opposite. So if my low back is in a flexed, rounded position most of the day, speaker-0 (26:37.144) I need to do more of the opposite. need to stand up straight. I need to put my back in an extended position. I need to get on the floor, perform a Cobra pose for repetitions, get my back into an arch position. I need to do extension-based movements in the gym for my hips. Okay, if my hips are in a flex position, same thing. I need to get more hip flexor stretches. I need to do hip extension-based movements. I need to do glute motions that involve pushing my hip into extension. This is gonna do the opposite. reverse the motions that are being overdone on these regions to help undo a majority of the stress. And so there's many different movements that can satisfy this protocol. But the easiest way to look at one's situation, because remember, people have different lifestyles and they might be in different positions throughout the day, is if you can analyze your body and think, okay, what position are my joints in eight hours a day, start to do more of the opposite. You mean while you're so there's the movements that are the opposite. But what about grant our posture and manipulating how we're sitting for those hours? Is that part of your protocol too? Well, Not necessarily. Because if we look at the evidence, we know that the evidence does not support a causational relationship between posture and pain. Really? That is interesting. speaker-0 (27:57.302) Yep, doesn't exist. Posture is very commonly a narrative that is inappropriately pushed on a lot of people and is blamed when it otherwise should not be. posture, think about it this way. If I'm sitting down, if I had been forward and I had been back, I was just in like 30 different postures. A posture is just one position at one moment in time. To take someone's entire pain experience and to stamp the label, it's because of your posture. is a huge disservice, it's incredibly negligent to your job as a healthcare provider and to the person who's dealing with pain. Because here's what I mean by this. Pain is influenced by so many things. Yes, it's influenced by mechanical stressors, what we're doing and what we're putting on our body throughout the day and the positions we're in. But also it's influenced by interpersonal relationships. It's influenced by stress at work. It's influenced by diet. It's influenced by sleep. It's influenced by our belief systems. It's influenced by all of these things. So if someone has, you know, situations where it would involve multiple facets and we take all those things, we don't analyze their sleep. We don't analyze their lifestyle. We don't analyze their emotional impact. We don't analyze their belief system. We don't analyze anything. We don't analyze their exercise. We don't analyze their movement. Nothing. And we go, yeah, your back hurts because your posture. man. That's one of the worst things you could tell someone because you're isolating them into a box. It's fractured. Yeah, you're segmenting them. You're fracturing them. And so if you're labeling them with that, and so now the only thing they're doing is, you know, obsessing about their posture, but all these other things are occurring in their life. They're movements off. They're not getting the right movements. They are getting bad sleep. They have bad to all these things. And that's not being adjusted. Then they're going to stay trapped in this box for a really, really long time. Wow. speaker-0 (29:51.95) So we don't want to make that mistake. So posture is only important in the context of being aware of the position you're in too long. So if I sit in a bent position for a really, really long time, that is one posture I'm in for too long. That's not going to feel good. But also if I sit perfectly straight, shoulders back, my gosh, I look beautiful. Okay. If I stay in that position for a long straight, that's not going to feel good either. We don't want to be in any one posture for too long. We want to be in as many different postures as possible as frequently throughout the day because the best posture for you is the one you're in for the next five minutes. It was really interesting too. You just mentioned talking about emotional impact or state. Do your clients self-report that, saying, you know, I'm feeling frazzled or I'm going through a lot of turmoil in my life? How do you measure that? Yeah, this is more of a delicate concept because some people don't believe that emotions, stress, mindset can play a in their pain. Some people don't believe that. They might interpret that as being, you're telling me the pain's in my head. And we say, no, but also, yes, 100 % of our pain. is created by our brain. All pain is created within your brain. All pain is real. Pain is an experience. So one, people might have a belief that, these things aren't involved, so don't even suggest that to me. And that can become a bit of a friction point, if you will. Other people might agree with that, but might be withholding that form of information. There could be a certain level of comfortability that might be needed to disclose those things. So the manner in which speaker-0 (31:49.058) we can breach these topics needs to be delicate. So there's usually a few signs or symptoms that we can identify that usually relate to more of an emotional origin or a stress origin or a mental origin related to it to some capacity. There's many different variables when I say mental origin. There's many different places. But if we hear some things that we think could be related, then some very, very simple questions that could open some doors could just be, hey, do you notice more pain at work? Okay, well, they're going to say yes for one of two reasons. Either one, because the position they're in while they work actually increases their pain, or just the environment they're in increases emotional stressors, increases mental stressors, and therefore that increases their pain. And we can identify that through a little bit of questioning. If not, we might say, Is your pain worse at home? Maybe they feel completely fine at work and maybe they're sitting at work and then they go home and sit and they're not fine. Why would that be? Is there something about your home environment that causes increased emotional stress or anxiety or things that relate to that? Outside of that, additional questions are, when this pain began, was there anything substantial that changed in your life? That's an open question. Other deeper questions could be, Has anything significant happened recently to any close friends or close family members? And there are many scenarios where a loved one to any capacity was either in an accident or was very ill or passed away. And that was in direct relationship with that individual's pain experience. And once we were able to identify that and relay that education and help the individual realize that, that sort of autonomy over their pain experience and that understanding and feeling independent and more in control. That was all they needed to start the healing process. That can be very powerful. speaker-1 (33:54.03) It's so powerful because people do fracture. Like we said, there's a lot of specialists that are like, well, I only treat, you know, your nose and throat and forget about everything else or only your liver, only your bones. But seeing we're whole beings, right? And we have the mind, we have emotions, we have the physical body and they do interplay and they do, they do affect. And there's so many studies now, seeing how stress affects hormonal regulation, affects digestion. So it makes sense that different factors, it's multifactorial when you're looking at back pain. And I'm really happy to hear that you're taking that holistic approach, which some practitioners don't, obviously. Yep. It's, you look at back pain as a whole, 90 % is called non-specific low back pain, which is exactly what, you know, that the title says non-specific. You cannot trace it back to one specific thing. And that's not to say that there can't be a clear mechanism of injury for low back pain. Like a really common presentation is, you know, we'll work with someone who's active, common gym goer. They might have done a heavy squat, done a heavy deadlift, or maybe they just... Maybe they weren't working out, they're in their home and just bent over to pick up their phone and they felt a pop in their lower back or it seized up. And now they're speaking with us. Yes, in that scenario, you might think, that seems pretty specific. It was that one thing they did. But even in that scenario, it's not that clear cut. Yes, that tells us the mechanism of injury. But we have to trace the steps back to, well, why did that thing create the injury? And then we have to look back at everything else that we've discussed up until this point. is nonspecific. It's multifactorial. There's many, many different things involved. So looking at those things, figuring out what might be missing, and then combining that with the proper rehab plan that does address the actual joints, muscles, disc, nerve in the way that they need, that's the recipe. speaker-1 (35:53.528) Sounds like a good recipe. So, Grant, thankfully, not going to go here, I don't have lower back pain except for when I was pregnant twice, right? I think that's pretty common in women. But I have experienced hip pain, and I believe that's fairly common in women, and I don't know if that's related to the lower back and the other factors you were mentioning, if there's a relationship, if it's separate, if it also has to do with hamstrings. Can you share a little bit about hip pain? Yeah. First off, pregnancy is a very, very common period of life for low back, hip or sciatica induced pain. There are things that you can do to manage symptoms in the later stages of pregnancy. But this is a really common onset. There's obviously a lot of stress and a lot of changes going on within your body. you can find symptom management. You can find significant symptom reduction. It's usually difficult. Let's just say, for example, like my wife, I've had three young kids. I got a four year old, a three year old and a seven month old. And my wife, you know, I'm the low back guy, but even still she developed on and off sciatica around, you know, month seven, month eight, you know, month nine. At that point, there's only so much you can do. There's still a lot you can do, but there's only so much you can't, you know, eliminate it. There's stresses going on in your body. So. The main reason for this is not only the force distribution within your body, but then of course the hormone relaxin that relaxes all of your ligaments, increases ligament laxity as a whole, joint laxity throughout your body that can therefore create pain in various places. So the pelvic floor is related to this as well. Pelvic floor strength, pelvic floor integrity, that relates to your hip and the low back relates to your hip. Two things that are affected during So when we look at the hip, we look at above and below. We look, okay, what does the ankle do? What does the knee do? What's the integrity of the pelvic floor, especially as it relates to women primarily who have gone through labor and then the low back, the low back and the hips, they're like best friends. If one isn't happy, usually the other one isn't either. So really the two main things to look at in any area of the body, but primarily the hip would be, okay, is there a joint restriction? Is there a position of your hip that you're not getting enough of? Is the joint itself essentially locked up? speaker-0 (38:19.534) and not going a direction otherwise should be. And then what is the stability of the hip as a whole? That would be impacted by muscular strength and muscular function in different ways. So usually we see a few common patterns of the type of stability that's missing. So to keep things super generic, if someone has hip pain, we want to focus on the lower back because that's a relationship. We want to rule out the lower back, make sure the lower back is not referring to the hip. And then once that Okay. speaker-0 (38:49.568) is checked, okay, then we're focusing on the mobility of the hip that is primarily deficient and then stability of the hip that is deficient. And that's sort of the blueprint approach to addressing hip pain. I remember I went to see a, not a chiropractor grant, but a fascia specialist and he was having me do clam shells to try to stabilize the hip. You're smiling. didn't probably, a bit basic. Well, it's all relative to where the person is at. I clamshells are very basic exercises. It's this minimal load. But if the individual performing them cannot tolerate more load than that, then it would be appropriate for that situation. The only issue is a majority of individuals who are given that exercise, they can usually handle more load than that. The vast majority of individuals dealing with pain are significantly under loaded, which means not enough weight is placed on their body, not enough like stress is placed. So imagine I'm in the gym and I'm double curls with one pound. That's not going to do anything. I should probably do more weight than that. So that's load. So if we look at a healthy individual who's remotely active, clam shell is not going to be enough load most of the time. Yeah. Okay. So if someone's listening to this and they're interested in learning about these movements and they're also saying, which to be honest, I say to myself, Hey, you know, I'm a pretty busy working mom. How much time would I need to a lot? And of course the, you know, the higher the pain, you're, you're, you're more willing to do more. But in general grants, someone's doing your protocols, seeing your videos, doing, you know, going on your website, making consultations. speaker-1 (40:34.702) How much time in general, I know this is a really blanket statement, would one have to dedicate to these movements? You shouldn't be dedicating more than 10 to 15 minutes a day if you have the right plan. Wow, that is not what I expecting her to say. That is amazing. 10 to 15 minutes. Okay, sign me up. That is, it's precise, it's specific, and it's effective. You don't need more time than that. Think about it this way. I used an analogy earlier of movements medicine. You got to find the right medicine. imagine if I walked into a pharmacy and I was like, I don't really know what I'm dealing with, but I got symptoms. I don't really know the names of these medications or what they do, but I'm just going to kind of take everything and like walk around and guess. Okay. That's what it's like for a lot of people dealing with back pain or other pain who are just searching the internet for various exercises, trying random things. That's what they're doing. Now, once again, movement is good. Movement is good, but movement is medicine. And if you have pain, you will do movements that hurt. You will do movements that are better. You've got to identify the right ones. So what we do is we help someone accurately identify their situation. We walk into the pharmacy, know, theoretically, we're not actually doing this. speaker-0 (41:56.994) We clear all the shelves and we say, yep, these are the two that you need to take the first week. These are the two. This is how often, this is how many, just do that. So now we have the most targeted approach towards that specific condition. So they're not wasting their time doing 30 minutes, 60 minutes, two hours of stuff that is not specific or targeted to that particular issue. So when you have a very, very targeted approach, you can do a lot less and get way more significant of a result. once again, don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying people can be super healthy for the rest of their life, only 10 minutes a day. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if we have pain and you have a rehab plan, 10 to 15 minutes is all that's necessary. But of course, when we get people healthy and they can get back into the gym and do things, obviously we want to spend more time exercising and moving and investing into our health. Yes, of course, it's the whole lifestyle. Like we said, sleep and food and everything. are you saying, Grant, I can put some weight on my knees and keep doing my clam shelf? Yeah, you can load yourself up. Put a barbell on your back, rip a barbell off the ground. Do some weight, baby. That's good for everybody. So, Dr. Grant, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. I love your holistic approach and the evidence-based and the fact that you're including emotional well-being and the specific, the targeted, pain from a very wide palette. So where can we learn more about your work? And if someone's interested in doing your program, where do we go? speaker-0 (43:40.398) So you can find me and my team and all of our content searching RehabFix on all platforms. I'd like to provide anyone listening or watching is if you go to my Instagram,And you just message us the word podcast. Nothing else. Just message us the word podcast. I will actually send you a do it yourself assessment, which is a process that we normally take our one-on-one clients through. And this isn't shared anywhere. This isn't posted anywhere. This is only going to be exclusive to the people who listen to this podcast where you just message the word podcast. I'll send you a video. It'll take you through a do it yourself assessment. I'll walk you through the tests you should do. I'll walk you through the exercises you should do. And the majority of people see real time diagnosis, real time relief during that so that you can get a direction where to go. And of course, at the end of it, if you want more help and a more plan based on your findings, you'll have the opportunity to reach out for us for that. pain reduction and also as we just spoke about reducing unnecessary surgery. So please share the episode. Please go to mysolluna.com for the show notes. We will also link directly to Dr. Grant's website and his handles. And you can also find me on Instagram at at underscore Kimberly Snyder. We will be back here in just a few days. So till then take great care and sending you all so much love.

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Amy Killen Summary: In this enlightening conversation, Dr. Amy Killen discusses the evolving landscape of wellness technologies and supplements, focusing on collagen, hormone replacement therapy, and the importance of ovarian health. She emphasizes the connection between inner health and outer beauty, particularly skin and hair health, while also addressing the role of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and sleep. The discussion extends to the potential benefits of peptides, the impact of sugar and caffeine on health, and the significance of melatonin for sleep. Dr. Killen empowers listeners to take control of their health and well-being through informed choices and lifestyle adjustments. About Dr. Amy Killen A leading longevity and regenerative physician, entrepreneur, speaker, clinical practice owner, author, and frequent media guest, Dr. Killen has become an outspoken advocate for empowering people to look and feel their best by combining lifestyle modification, integrative medicine, body-identical hormones, peptides, and regenerative therapies. Dr. Killen, a former emergency physician, has firsthand experience with the bureaucratic obstacles that can delay critical treatments from reaching patients. Driven by a passion for healthcare innovation, she is dedicated to making effective yet underutilized diagnostics and treatments widely accessible. Dr. Killen is committed to transforming healthcare through entrepreneurship, education, and patient empowerment. She is also the founder and CEO of the Human Optimization Project (HOP), a longevity-focused supplement company dedicated to providing women with unique, science-backed products designed for convenience and effectiveness. These easy-to-use, portable solutions target aging at the cellular level. Additionally, Dr. Killen is the co-founder and Chief Medical Officer of Humanaut Health, a cutting-edge longevity clinic franchise. Humanaut Health combines hormone therapy, peptides, regenerative medicine, lifestyle medicine, and advanced diagnostics to deliver a tech-enabled, proactive approach to health optimization. In her Utah-based practice, Docere Clinics, Dr. Killen and her colleague, Dr. Harry Adelson, pioneered the Full Body Stem Cell Makeover, one of the most innovative regenerative procedures currently available. Guest Resources: Website: www.dramykillen.com, Hopbox.life Social: @Dr.AmyBKillen Episode Sponsors: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY GLOWING GREENS POWDER OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Episode Chapters 00:00 The Rise of Wellness Technologies 03:03 Collagen: The Controversial Supplement 05:58 Skin Health and Inner Wellness 09:04 Hormone Replacement Therapy: A Deeper Dive 11:51 Understanding Testosterone in Women 15:07 The Role of Ovarian Health 17:57 Peptides: The New Frontier 20:45 Sugar and Women's Health 23:50 Caffeine: Friend or Foe? 26:50 Melatonin: The Sleep Hormone 29:44 Hair Health: Addressing Hair Loss 32:47 Empowerment Through Knowledge SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.226) Dr. Amy, thank you so much for joining us here today from Utah, right? Amy Killen MD (00:05.902) Yes, yes, I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:08.534) It's amazing how connected we can be wherever we are. I was thinking about, I've been excited to talk to you for a couple of weeks. I feel like this is such an exciting time for all the new technologies and wellness products and wellness modalities. But there's also so much confusion out there about what works and what doesn't and what people should be spending money on. So it's exciting, but it's also an interesting time, isn't it? Amy Killen MD (00:40.32) It is. It is. hard to know what's good and what's not sometimes. There's so many options out there these days. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:46.87) And I know you speak to many subjects, but I want to start with one supplement, which we've all seen that just blew up, which is collagen. And I always was, I suspected something was going on with it, Amy, because it just sort of seemed a little strange. And I didn't know if we would actually do anything to eat collagen. It was sort of like this idea, you have to eat hair to grow better hair versus nutrients that support it. I read a really interesting article you wrote about how the research seemed promising and then more started to become uncovered. Can you share a little bit about your findings? Amy Killen MD (01:27.342) Yeah, collagen is one of those things I've kind of changed my mind about. And I don't think it's bad by any means. I think it has purposes. I think it's still probably good for, especially for joints and like musculoskeletal health. But I have changed my opinions about collagen for skin health in that I don't think we have as much data as we thought we did. So there were a series of studies over the last couple of decades on collagen for skin health and... The short version is the initial kind of meta-analyses where they bring all the studies together from like 2021, 2023 were very promising. And it seemed like, you know, taking collagen in orally as a powder or drink or whatever, you know, could actually improve skin hydration and elasticity and make people look a little bit fresher. And so, you know, I'd been recommending collagen for years based on all of those initial studies. But a new study, our review article came out in 2025 that basically, you made me little bit weary about those early results. What they did was they took all those initial studies and they categorized them by who was funding the study. So if it was industry funded, if it was the college and company was funding it, it went in one bucket. If it was not industry funded, it went another bucket. And they found that all the studies essentially that had good results were industry funded. And if you looked, took those off the table, then collagen did not seem to really improve skin health. So it's still, I think the jury is still out. Like we still have more to learn, but at this point, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that collagen is the panacea we thought it was for skin. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:03.476) Right. And in your work, Dr. Amy, I know, you know, so many of us want to look good, like you mentioned, people want to look fresh, they want their skin to look good, they want their hair to look good. But also on a deeper level, and I've always believed this, your skin and your hair and these outer markers, if you will, for beauty do have relevance to your inner health, your organ health, what's going on in the cellular level. Can you speak to that as well? Amy Killen MD (03:33.218) Yeah, absolutely. think the skin is just one more visible marker of health in general. So absolutely, I think the foundation is always going to be the same things that make us healthy, know, clean diet, exercise, sleep, you know, all those kinds of things. For skin, getting some sort of protection from UV light, especially in the skin that's exposed to UV light over and over again is important for aging, for slowing down aging. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:52.907) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (03:57.09) But we always want to start from the inside, but as a sort of midlife woman, I also am very, conscious of like, what else can I do besides live healthy? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:07.092) Yes. And what else would you say if someone wants to go beyond collagen? Like you said, might be great for joint health, but the reasons people, a lot of people were buying those products was because they wanted to improve skin elasticity. So beyond healthy diet, what have you seen that actually does have merit? Amy Killen MD (04:21.388) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (04:26.104) I mean, the biggest things that we know work, we know that sunblock works. So like, like a mineral sunblock, like zinc oxide or titanium dioxide. It sits on top of the skin, doesn't get really absorbed into the skin. And you know, I think that that's really important as just put it on every day before you go outside. I'm a big fan of the sun, but I also think we have to protect the, especially the face and neck and those areas. So that definitely works. Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:32.444) huh. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:47.189) I'm laughing because I just came from Hawaii. I'm like always trying to wear a hat because to be honest, Amy, you know, I try with the sunscreen. I put it on the face, but you know, the hat is always in my, our farm cars. So I try to keep that consistent. Amy Killen MD (05:01.612) Yeah. And you know, mean, some sun is healthy. Like we know that some sun exposure is very important for overall health. know the population that gets sun tend to have lower risks of diabetes and multiple cancers and heart disease and all kinds of things. So some sun is important. It is also one of the biggest drivers of aging in the skin. So the other thing I really like, I think that retinoids have a lot of evidence behind them. They're one of the best studied. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:05.762) Yes. Amy Killen MD (05:28.438) ingredients for skin health. And that's like retinols or a treatinol and retinoids and things like that. And you can get those over the counter or you can get prescriptions for stronger ones, but we know those work. And then good antioxidants applied topically to the skin as well as taken orally can also be helpful. Like astaxanthin, for instance, it's a great, it can be taken orally and it has great skin benefits and also some sun protection benefits actually. And you can also apply it topically. So things like astaxanthin, vitamin C, vitamin E. Some of those have really good research for both oral and topical applications for skin. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:03.562) And he still holds, Dr. Amy, that if we're trying to get pregnant, if we are pregnant, we should avoid retinoids. Amy Killen MD (06:10.86) Yeah, avoid retinoids, especially the stronger ones. Always talk to your doctor before you're taking anything, certainly orally. I don't know about what the research is right now on the weaker topical retinols when you're pregnant, but I would definitely talk to your doctor first. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:27.328) There's also a lot of conversation around hormone replacement therapy these days. There's a lot of conversation, menopause, perimenopause. Is one of the benefits, because I've heard different things of taking hormones, can that improve your skin and bone health as well? Amy Killen MD (06:45.326) Yeah, absolutely. we lose... So women during perimenopause, which you know is about five to 10 years before menopause, and it can start as early as 35 or so and still be normal, perimenopause, estrogen and progesterone start to go down. And estrogen especially is very important for your skin. It helps your body to maintain the collagen in your skin. In fact, when you go through menopause, you lose 30 % of your collagen in your body system-wide. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:55.54) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:04.758) Mmm. Amy Killen MD (07:15.552) it just drops off a cliff because it loses the estrogen signal that is required to keep the collagen in the tissue. replacing estrogen whenever it's time to do that, usually it's late perimenopause or early menopause, can really help to preserve skin elasticity and hydration and structure and all of those things. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:15.552) Wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:36.426) What if you're in your 30s and you don't have any of these symptoms yet? You you still get your period every 28 days and your moods are stabilized, you're sleeping well, you don't have hot flashes. When would be a signal that says, hey, you might want to explore these hormone replacement options? Amy Killen MD (07:56.206) know, if you're in your thirties and you're feeling good and your cycles are good, you're, probably good. Like you don't necessarily have to go do anything at that point. In general, it's usually people when they get a little closer to the forties or when you're starting to have symptoms, like you're all of sudden, you can't sleep at night, especially like the two weeks before your period, or you're really irritable or you're having really bad PMS pain or symptoms. Um, there's a lot of different kinds of symptoms often in the, in the weeks before your period that will signify that, that progesterone is starting to go down and that you might. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:03.285) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (08:25.826) want to talk to your doctor about replacing that. That's the first hormone we usually replace. Or other changes, libido changes, weight changes. There's so many different things that can happen during that timeframe. But if you feel great and everything is going as scheduled, then you don't necessarily have to worry about your hormones in your 30s. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:39.574) Thank Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:43.126) But by 40s and 50s, it's something to explore. Amy Killen MD (08:47.862) Yeah, usually, I I recommend at least talking to your doctor about hormone optimization therapy once you get close to menopause because these hormones have so many long-term health benefits. So not even just treating symptoms, but also preventing osteoporosis or preventing dementia or heart disease or some of these things that are more common in women and especially become common after you lose estrogen and the protection of that. even if you're not having symptoms, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:06.193) Bye. Amy Killen MD (09:14.818) you know, by mid forties or so, I would recommend talking to your doctor about kind of game planning, how you're going to approach hormones later on. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:22.848) Well, maybe some women would need a different doctor or a more specialized hormone doctor because, you know, some doctors don't seem to know that much about this, the general practitioner. With a sigh. Amy Killen MD (09:32.726) Yes. know, unfortunately doctors, yes, doctors I know it's so frustrating. Doctors only receive about like less than two hours in the U.S. less than two hours of training in menopause throughout their entire medical career. Now OBGYNs may get a little bit more and I think we're starting to see more awareness around this. But like when I went through and most doctors went through, we didn't talk about menopause. We didn't talk about replacing hormones. And so most doctors that are out there just haven't had the education. And unless they've taken it upon themselves to take courses and go through programs, they just really don't know that much about what really happens during these transition periods for women and why it's so important to talk about them. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:19.254) What are some of the questions someone should ask a potential doctor? What should they look for? Because again, that becomes confusing. And I've also seen Dr. Amy people giving advice and then you look a little deeper and they're chiropractors or there's something that is not there. They still are a doctor, but something that's unrelated. But maybe they did do the courses. So who knows? I don't know. Amy Killen MD (10:36.28) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (10:41.378) Yeah. Yeah. think that, you know, making sure that you have a medical provider who is able to prescribe drugs in general is important. You chiropractors can't prescribe most drugs. So they're going to be, they'll have a, they have a toolkit that they can use, which a lot of them are very smart and very informed, but their toolkit is not going to include prescribing hormones. So sometimes that will bias them a little bit. Like they'll, they'll, they'll say, well, you shouldn't do hormones because X, Y, and Z, but part of it is cause they can't prescribe hormones. But I would say, talk to doctors and ask them what their experience is prescribing these body identical or bioidentical hormones, which is what we want, and how open they are to it. And are they offering it to most of their patients, or is it just a small number of patients who take it? Are they trying to not just treat symptoms, but also prevent future diseases with these hormones? I think it's also important. And also, talk to your friends if you have people, other friends in the space who have gone to doctors and get recommendations from them, because it can be really hard. It can be hard to find a good doctor, I think. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:45.408) Do you think that with telehealth now, you can meet with a doctor online, you can send in blood work, it sort of opens up the field, doesn't it? Amy Killen MD (11:54.55) It does. think it's definitely getting easier. And, one of my companies is Humanaut Health and we have in-person clinics and then we're building out the telehealth as well. And we do hormones and longevity medicine, but there are a number of other companies that just do telehealth and they do a great job. And I think that, I do think that there's more availability of these services, but they are usually cash pay. Like you're not usually using insurance to pay for these. And so obviously that's not going to work for everybody. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:22.464) Right. So going back to the hormones for a moment, testosterone is something that we usually hear for men, know, replacing their testosterone as they age as well. What about for women? This is an interesting topic. Amy Killen MD (12:34.971) you Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting. Women actually have more testosterone in their bodies than they do estrogen. When they're younger, like when you have before menopause and really even after menopause, we make more testosterone and we have more testosterone in our bodies at any given point than we do estrogen. And yet. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:55.446) after you start getting your period or pre-mences. Amy Killen MD (13:00.202) once, yeah, once, once like from puberty on your body's making testosterone and you know, we think of testosterone as being a male hormone, but it's really just a human hormone. We all have it. We all need it. And so absolutely. think that, you know, offering it as, you know, replacing it in women can be important. Not all women will need testosterone replacement. Some people continue to make it and it's testosterone is a little different than estrogen and progesterone because it doesn't like fall off a cliff at. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:03.818) Wow. Amy Killen MD (13:29.782) at menopause. Your body still makes testosterone even as you age, but you're just making less and less each year. So it's similar to men. You just make less and less and less as you get older. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:40.16) So once you get on that train of hormone replacement therapy, how often would you have to get checked to see if the dosages need to be tweaked or how you continue? Because it sounds like there's changes that progress. Amy Killen MD (13:51.672) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (13:57.366) Yeah, you know, and yeah, so usually I recommend patients get seen every three months in the beginning and get lab work done and see your medical provider every three months. And especially in those early months, you're going to have some adjustments to these medications because there's not a single, you know, no, no one dose is going to work for everyone. And there are different ways to take the hormones that you can take them as a pill or a patch or a cream or a trochee under your tongue. There's all these different methods. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:03.724) wow. Amy Killen MD (14:24.054) and each one has pros and cons and each one works differently in different people. So there's a lot of kind of adjusting and tweaking that happens during the first three, six, nine, 10 months or so that you're on hormones. But then once you get on something where you feel good and your levels are pretty steady, then you can space your visits out a little bit more if you want to. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:45.482) What do you think, Dr. Amy, about our grandmothers and our great grandmothers that went through menopause? I just think about my grandma in the Philippines. I don't, I mean, people didn't talk about it as much, but she didn't seem to complain that much about it. Do you think with microplastics and pollution, it's harder on our hormones and shifts, or do you think women just didn't discuss their challenges as much because they didn't have the technology? Yeah. Amy Killen MD (15:12.386) Yeah, I think that's a great question. I don't know the answer for sure. I know that we're not going into menopause earlier necessarily. Like we do know that like endocrine disruptors and microplastics and toxins in the environment can affect our ovaries. And people who have a lot of exposure to those things can go into menopause earlier by about two and a half to three years. So that is a problem, but like population wide, we're not necessarily going in earlier than, you know, our grandmothers did. But Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:31.51) Hmm. Amy Killen MD (15:41.73) whether or not they had as severe a symptoms, I don't know. I think that they probably were just really tough and they just didn't talk about it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:49.522) Right. Now speaking of ovarian health, which is also another issue, fertility is an issue. Just so many issues now that I feel like in the last 10 years are being talked about. People are doing IVF in their 20s. What's going on with our ovaries? Amy Killen MD (16:09.678) You know, the ovaries are really the pacemaker of our female body in terms of determining how quickly you age and kind of how well you age. you know, we don't talk a lot about ovarian health, but the ovaries are much more than just a reproductive organ. So certainly we need them to ovulate and have eggs and to make babies. But because you're making these hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone in the ovaries, as well as, you know, 40 or so other chemicals that are being made, the ovaries kind of decide how quickly the rest of your body is going to age. And it's interesting, but I think, you know, as far as fertility goes, you know, there are, think a lot of it is environmental. A lot of it is, you know, the, the endotoxins and the, the liquid disruptors. And I also think that the lifestyle is a big part of it. We know that stress, for instance, has a very direct result on ovarian health and ovarian function, sleep, diet, exercise, you know, all the things that we know are important. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:43.168) Wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:51.798) controls. Amy Killen MD (17:07.392) All of those are sending messages to the ovaries to help the ovaries decide, you know, kind of how healthy they could be and then whether to ovulate or not. And so there's a lot of things that go into it, but the ovaries are very receptive to everything that you're doing in your life, better or worse, to make yourself healthier. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:27.092) that interesting. I wonder what traditional Chinese medicine says, the emotions associated with the ovaries because, livers, anger and spleen is sadness, but I've never heard that about ovaries being an indicator of your overall aging. That's so interesting. Amy Killen MD (17:43.148) Yeah, I don't know either. I don't know much about the Chinese medicine, but I think that we haven't paid enough respect to the ovaries over the last, you know, hundreds of years. And finally, researchers are saying, this is really important for how women age, not just fertility, but also how we age. So I think that they'll finally get some respect and we're studying them, but it's about time. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:04.022) So something as simple as respecting circadian rhythms and wearing blue-light blocking glasses and things like optimizing your sleep can really help ovarian health. Amy Killen MD (18:14.594) Yeah, Overe, you know, when you, the ovaries are really interesting. know, every month you release one egg, right? But what people don't know is that up to a thousand other eggs start to develop throughout the month. And the only one is chosen to ovulate to get released. But the other ones, all the other 500 or thousand eggs that started to mature, those will die. So basically every month you're losing up to a thousand or so of these very precious eggs, which is horrible. I know. And then when you run out of eggs, that's when you hit menopause. And so the question that researchers are asking is, can we slow down the rate that we're losing these eggs? Can we have fewer of these precious eggs start to develop? we're testing drugs, like people are testing drugs like rapamycin. How does lifestyle affect this? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:43.151) It's like a fish with all the eggs, you know. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:50.88) Right? Amy Killen MD (19:07.462) because once the eggs start to, whenever they die in the ovaries, it's called atresia, they start to release these inflammatory signals. And so it makes all the ovary, like all the rest of the ovary becomes like a less hospitable place to the future eggs. So there's a lot of things that are happening in the ovaries that are reflective of health. Some of it's just genetics, but there's a lot also reflective of your health. And so we know that we can move some levers with the ovaries, but we don't have control over genetics, obviously. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:35.99) Oh, it's interesting again, back to my grandmother from the Philippines who lived in a very rural existence and she had healthy babies, Amy, to 48. Right. that was, started at 18, had a few, took a big break, went back to school and started at 36, I believe, and had six more. Amy Killen MD (19:45.666) Wow, that's amazing. Amy Killen MD (19:56.462) How many she have total? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:58.089) She had eight, but one died in infant mortality. Was it very, very early on. But NAD, I read some interesting research about how that can help with ovarian health. What's your opinion on that? Amy Killen MD (20:03.224) Wow. Amy Killen MD (20:14.626) Yeah, there are some animal studies that NAD precursors like NMN or NR might be helpful in improving ovarian health, as well as some of the other kind of longevity supplements that are out there. Some of the antioxidants may be helpful in reducing the oxidative stress in the ovaries and help as well. Melatonin is another one that's been studied and has some good animal research for it, as well as like DHEA, which is another oral hormone that we can take. So there's a lot of animal data. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of human data yet that these are particularly healthy for us long-term for ovarian health. We just don't know. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:53.386) Now this is a big question Amy, and I know it's individual and it's complex, but another big trend out there is peptides. And it seems like when you go down that rabbit hole, there's so many. And for the person that's like, I want this and I want this, then you can suddenly start taking all these different peptides. I am not as well versed. I don't take peptides myself right now, but wow, I have friends that are taking all sorts of things. Amy Killen MD (21:21.773) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:22.634) Can they counteract? Do we need all these different peptides? Do they work? I mean, I'm sure that research is also ongoing. Amy Killen MD (21:29.526) Yeah, mean, peptides is a whole category of these molecules that are essentially just short proteins. So a peptide is just like a few amino acids long. So it's a very short protein strand. And most of the ones that are talked about widely are also made by your own body. you know, essentially can we replace some of these peptides that they all do very different things and they all, you know, will bind to receptors and have very direct actions in the body. And I guess the short version is there are, there's hundreds, maybe, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:57.334) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (21:58.488) thousands of peptides out there and they all do different things. Most of the research on most of the peptides is primarily in animals, although certainly, know, peptides like the GLP-1s, which is Ozempic, you know, and Monjaro, those are peptides. And those, of course, have really good strong human data on them at this point. So I think peptides are fascinating. We use them a lot at Humanoid, but you also do want to have a medical provider who understands them because there's so many of them, like you said. They can have interactions. are some of them you want to cycle. You you use, do them for four or six weeks and then you stop them for a period of time. Some of them you can do every day. So it's, it's a whole thing that you want to have someone that really knows what they're doing. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:42.442) And also you still wanna maintain the healthy lifestyle habits. Like we said, you still need a healthy diet, you still need to exercise, you still need to sleep. It's not like a magic needle. Amy Killen MD (22:52.064) It is not. Yeah, it's all always start with the foundational stuff. I think of peptides as being, you know, like an icing on the cake or maybe it's the sprinkles on the icing on the cake hormones or the icing and the peptides are more like sprinkles. But so, you know, those things can be helpful in situations, but that's not the thing you reach for first when you're looking for help. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:11.03) Right, right. It's like the layer, layers up. Can you talk a little bit about sugar, Dr. Amy? We hear a lot about sugar for different aspects of health, but specifically for women's health, ovarian health, of the hormones, some of the topics we've been discussing so far. Refined. Amy Killen MD (23:15.533) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (23:31.918) Yeah, I I think that keeping your blood sugar in a healthy range is very important for longevity. We know that. Certainly simple carbohydrates and actual sugar, like table sugar, if you get too much of it can affect your blood sugar and can cause problems down the line with more rapid aging of all different parts of your body, your ovaries, your blood vessels, your brain. So maintaining a healthy blood sugar is really important. I don't want people, I don't like the idea that we shouldn't have any sugar. I mean, I think that that's a little crazy that, you know, to say that all sugar is bad all the time, but it's like anything else. you, know, moderation is important. know, knowing how sugar affects you specifically is important. Tracking it potentially, like putting on a glucose monitor can be really helpful or at least getting blood work, you know, every three to six months and making sure that your markers of insulin sensitivity and resistance are in a healthy range. So certainly follow it, but you know, I like a dessert at night if I'm Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:03.413) Yeah Amy Killen MD (24:27.648) if I've been pretty good all day, you just don't want to go overboard with those things. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:32.574) Yeah, I mean, we were just in Hawaii. As I mentioned, I love fruit. We're eating papayas off the tree and guavas, but in a fiber-filled form, not the juice, with the whole fruit. And that feels really good in the body as well. Amy Killen MD (24:40.194) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Fruit, think, is amazing. Certainly, you could do too much of it, but it's really hard to get too much fruit. Unless you're diabetic, most people are not eating too much fruit. I'm not worried about that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:57.354) Bradley fruit and fiber, because another big trend with protein, Dr. Amy, I see a lot of people just having protein bars and protein shakes. We need protein, but there's so much, you know, unprocessed foods that can come with that. And then people aren't as focused on fiber. Amy Killen MD (25:07.501) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (25:18.146) Yeah, I think protein and fiber, especially as I get older, know, as I get closer to 50, which is like next month, I start thinking more and more about, you know, how I need to be eating every day. Like how much protein am I getting? How much fiber am I getting? Like those are the two things that I really pay attention to for myself and my patients, especially midlife kind of and older women, because fiber we know is important in so much as far as disease prevention, cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, and then protein we know is important for building muscle and maintaining muscle. And that's one of those things that your body doesn't store those amino acids in any form except for your muscles. So if you're not eating the protein, then you can break down your muscles, which is obviously not what we want. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:52.086) right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:59.638) What do you think of amino acid supplements? Amy Killen MD (26:02.83) I think that they're fine. think that, you know, getting amino acids either from like an amino acid supplement, it's an option. I don't think it's any better necessarily than just getting it from, you know, a steak. But certainly if you need to, if you can't get enough from food, I think that supplementing is a fine option. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:19.446) How bad is caffeine for, I keep saying ovarian health because I loved how you made that a central point and for women in general. Amy Killen MD (26:28.833) Yeah. You know, I don't, a good question. I don't know if I've seen much published on caffeine for ovarian health. I think I'm a fan of caffeine. I don't think it's bad. I think certainly you can do too much and maybe there's, you know, don't want to do it, you know, after 2 PM or so, depending on how quickly you process it. Some of us are fast processors and some people are slow processors. It's good to know that, but I think that caffeine has its place, but we probably shouldn't overindulge too much. And certainly if you're Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:43.027) you Amy Killen MD (26:58.35) If you're taking a lot of caffeine because you're just super exhausted and you can't get through the day and all of that, it's good to know, like, well, why are you so tired? And get back to what's actually going on versus just drinking a lot of Red Bulls. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:11.222) Well, I only started drinking coffee a few years ago because as you and I were chatting, we started to grow cacao and we visited some farms around and the coffee is grown there and I just fell in love with the plant. It's very strong. And then sometimes I read things about how it can affect just your overall your adrenals and your body's functioning. So I'm cognizant of it. But I also think it's a very powerful plant. Amy Killen MD (27:24.077) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (27:38.936) Yeah, I think that I like coffee, I like cacao, I think that caffeine has its place. I don't have any concerns about it for most people, but certainly if you have high blood pressure, if you do have adrenal problems, if you have problems sleeping, there are some cases where you want to limit or get rid of caffeine, but for most people, I think it's perfectly fine and certainly can be helpful. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:01.418) Well, so on the flip side, we see a lot of supplements now with melatonin. And I know you had mentioned that earlier. And again, I've read some conflicting things. Certainly these brands are saying it's okay to take. know people that take it regularly and then some saying, you know, watch out, you don't want to take melatonin too often because then your body will produce it. What do you, what do you think about that? Amy Killen MD (28:20.888) Yeah. Yeah, think that melatonin, it can be helpful for sleep, but it's also a very strong antioxidant, which is probably why it was helpful in some of those animal ovarian aging studies. And I do think it has a place in it for some people. Not everyone responds well to melatonin. Some people, it makes them more wired. Some people has no effect in terms of sleep. And of course, the dosing is all over the map. mean, some people fall asleep and can't wake up at 0.5 milligrams. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:42.677) Hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:52.054) my gosh. Amy Killen MD (28:52.108) Some people take a hundred milligrams and it has no effect. And so there's a very wide dosing range. I don't worry as much as some people do about, you know, if you don't, if you take too much, then you won't make your own. I certainly if you take a hundred milligrams a day, you probably won't be making your own, but I'm treating mostly women who are kind of midlife women. And one of the hormones that really goes down as you get older is your ability to make melatonin. And so your body's not making as much as it was, which is part of the reasons that older people have a hard time sleeping. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:16.414) Amy Killen MD (29:21.976) So I think that replacing that, if it's helpful for them, I think it's great. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:26.682) that's great to know because some of these products or mints or powders have five milligrams, which seems like a sort of a hefty amount if you're not being prescribed melatonin. Amy Killen MD (29:33.39) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (29:40.686) Well, first of all, a lot of the over-the-counter products, as you know, they've done tests and especially melatonin, that many of the over-the-counter melatonins don't have any melatonin in them or they have a very small amount. So it is important to get it from a good source, a company that you or your doctor trust. But I tell patients, start with something like 0.5 or 1 milligrams and then just kind of march up a little bit. I tend to stay less than 10 milligrams from most people unless I'm Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:52.246) crazy. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:08.694) We're not. Yeah. Amy Killen MD (30:09.814) Once I'm doing some kind of like strong antioxidant protocol with them. And if it's just for sleep, usually I stay, you know, less than 10 for most people, but you'll find kind of a sweet spot. Like it's, very personal. Some people, you know, three milligrams is perfect. Four is, you know, is not, and two is not. Like you really have to kind of experiment. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:27.86) Wow. Finally, Amy, it's like asking an encyclopedia for questions. I blast questions at you all day, but we started talking about collagen skin health. I this is really going to, I think, the vulnerable side of women because we want to continue to look good and we know it's correlated with our inner health. But the other part is hair. And there's so much hair loss nowadays, hair thinning. hair breakage, hair not growing. I see so many articles about hair. And I also looked at some of these top hair selling supplements. And a lot of them are essentially, know, multivitamins to an extent with some other ingredients in them. But can you tell us a little bit about why you think this, first of all, the phenomenon of why women are experiencing so much hair loss and hair thinning? Amy Killen MD (31:22.37) Yeah, and I don't know if it's more than it was in previous generations or not. Again, it may just be an awareness that we talk about it more, but we do know that about 50 % of women in midlife will notice hair loss, hair shedding. So half of people, half of women will notice hair loss just from midlife. A lot of it's hormone changes. Estrogen is very good for your hair. And so when estrogen starts to go down, then the hair follicles change. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:34.72) Mmm. Amy Killen MD (31:49.262) and you're more likely to lose those follicles and to enter kind of a dormant hair phase. So estrogen loss is very bad for hair, but also progesterone and testosterone have roles in hair. Cortisol is also horrible for your hair. You when you have very high cortisol for very long, because you're stressed out and you're dealing with your multiple to-do lists and you know, all of these things, that is definitely something that will cause hair loss over time. All the environmental, all the... chemicals and toxins and things in the environment is bad for hair. Like all the things that are bad for us is your hair follicles are very sensitive to those things. And so they, yeah, so they're like little barometers to kind of what's happening in your personal life, your physical life and the environmental life. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:25.206) much. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:34.314) So do you think it's more macro though, again, the diet, the stress, the sleep versus people spending a lot of money on these specific hair growth supplements? Amy Killen MD (32:45.838) think it's both. tell my, I do, I treat a lot of hair loss and I tell my patients, if you really want to regrow hair, you have to like throw the kitchen sink at it. It is not just one thing. So maybe we're doing topical minoxidil, which you can get over the counter. Maybe we're doing an oral minoxidil, which is a prescription. Maybe we're doing red light therapy caps, which do work and can be really effective. Maybe we're doing injections with like PRP or stem cells or regenerative. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:56.042) Mmm. Amy Killen MD (33:15.502) you know, things like that in the office every so often. Plus we're working on lifestyle, plus we're working on, you know, making sure they're getting clean, clean diet and blocking certain hormones and things. So there's a lot of things that can go into it. And there's lots of different causes of hair loss too. So figuring out what's the reason, you know, with testing and with a good history and even a scalp biopsy, if you have a dermatologist and then going down how to treat it. know it's a lot. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (33:18.666) Wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (33:38.159) my gosh. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (33:42.198) And also, I'm just thinking breakage, taking care of your, mean, for me, it's the basics, getting less sun, washing the salt water out because otherwise the ends get more split and break, which I guess is for any human. Amy Killen MD (33:47.553) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (33:52.054) Mm-hmm. Amy Killen MD (33:56.344) Yeah, totally. Yeah. And the sun, like you mentioned, the sun, is not great for your skin over time is also the same, also not great for your hair follicle. causing the UV damage, causing oxidative stress, and it's essentially causing DNA damage in the cells around the hair follicle, just like it does in your skin. the sun is causing this damage. And if you don't repair it by either wearing sunblocks and hats and then taking maybe antioxidants or applying them. then that can cause hair loss as well. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:29.094) Well, thank you so much, Dr. Amy, for sharing about so many different topics. As soon as I ask you a question, there's right there the information, the knowledge, right there to share. Is there anything I didn't ask you or we didn't cover that you feel might benefit our community today? Amy Killen MD (34:50.09) think the main message I like to tell people is that we have, all of us have so much more control over how we age, how we feel, our health, than we sometimes think that we do. And I think in the old days, used to kind of, we used to think that our doctors were gonna keep us healthy, and now we understand that we have to keep ourselves healthy and our doctors are there just to kind of help guide and to be a resource if things go really bad, but it's really on us to stay up on. keeping ourselves healthy and staying up on the knowledge. I hope it's empowering, not stressful, but we do have a lot of control. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:26.102) Well, I think it's really empowering how you kept going back to these lifestyle basics, which definitely are in our control, and then saying, OK, well, then we can think about peptides or hormone replacement therapy or things on top. But the basics are tried and true. We'll support our hormonal health, our ovarian health, our bone health. And I think that's really empowering. And then to take the time to learn about other modalities if we feel called. Amy Killen MD (35:38.424) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (35:48.813) Yeah. Amy Killen MD (35:54.83) Absolutely, basics are still the basics. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:57.78) Well, Dr. Amy, where can we find out more about your work and keep connected to you? Amy Killen MD (36:05.838) So I have a website which is dramikillen.com, K-I-L-L-E-N. And then I'm also very active on both Instagram and Substack. I do articles every week on Substack and then I do a fair number of posting on Instagram. So it's dramikillen on those areas. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:23.016) Amazing. Well, thank you again so much for sharing your wisdom with us. We really appreciate you coming on. Amy Killen MD (36:28.802) Thank you, this was super fun. Have a good day. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:30.614) And everyone, thank you so much for logging on today and listening or watching. I really encourage you to share this interview with anyone that you think would benefit, another woman in your life, a colleague, a friend, because all of this is meant to empower, as Dr. Amy said, and the more we share with each other, the more we can support each other. We're on our show notes at mysaloon.com. We will link directly to Dr. Amy's handles. website. So please check that out. We'll also link to other articles and shows I think you would enjoy. be back here in a few days. I'll also see you on Instagram at underscore Kimberly Snyder. Till then, take great care and sending you all so much love.

Summary: In this conversation, Kimberly and Michael Hoeppner discuss the concept of the 'confidence trap' in communication, emphasizing that confidence can be fleeting and often leads to self-critique. He advocates for focusing on communication behaviors rather than chasing confidence, suggesting that this approach can lead to more effective speaking and personal development. About Michael Hoeppner Michael Hoeppner is the Founder and CEO of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies, and organizations the communication skills to reach their highest goals in work and life. He has worked with some of the world’s most influential companies and leaders, across a wide range of industries, universities, and professional sectors. His corporate clients include: three of the top eight financial firms in the world, 45 of the AmLaw 100, and multinational tech, pharma, and food and beverage companies. He teaches his unique approach to communication at Columbia Business School, in both the MBA and PhD programs. Resources: Website: michaelchadhoeppner.com Book: Don't Say Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life Company: GK Training Episode Sponsors FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY SBO PROBIOTICS OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Episode Chapters 00:00 The Importance of Communication 00:16 The Spiritual Aspect of Communication 00:49 Exploring Vocal Variety SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY'S BOOKS The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How to Believe in Your Self Worth with Jamie Kern Lima How to Raise Your Standards In Your Love Life with Matthew Hussey How to Eat to Beat Your Diet with New York Times best selling author Dr. William Li The issues with consuming vegetable and seed oils with Dr. Catherine Shanahan How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo How to Optimize Your Metabolic Health with Dr. Casey Means TRANSCRIPT: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:00.966) Michael, thank you so much for joining us here today. I'm very excited to chat with you. Michael Chad Hoeppner (00:06.36) Thank you, it's my pleasure. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:08.262) Also a little bit more careful than usual, given that your book, don't say how to communicate effectively to live a better life, is about communication. Michael Chad Hoeppner (00:21.078) You know, one of the unintended consequences of this book is that without even meaning to, I've made everyone who talks to me tremendously nervous, because they're thinking like, my gosh, he's watching my every move. And I joke with my wife where she'll say like, can you just turn off the communication lens for a second? Because I just want to have an argument. I just want to a discussion, right? I just want to have a nice conversation, you know? But I promise you. I am not interested in being the um-police. And in fact, in the very first page of the book, I joke that the title is a little bit of a trick because don't say is a classic example of thought suppression. As soon as you say don't say all you're thinking about is So the point of the book is really how do you escape those sorts of thought suppression traps and instead focus on things that you can do to be better. So. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:58.161) Right. Michael Chad Hoeppner (01:10.744) far from me watching every single thing you're doing like a hawk. No, I'm excited to have this conversation and get into what are things that people can do to be even better. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:10.834) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:18.79) Yes. You know, I feel like communication is something that we don't discuss enough openly, especially in today's world where texting and these ways in which we communicate a lot can just be very snippy and careless a bit. And one may ask, well, why are you guys talking about communication on a wellness show? And for me, the way I see it, and I'd love to hear your perspective, Michael, with working in this field for so long. I know when I communicate effectively, it fosters closeness and two of our cornerstones, two of our pillars are emotional well-being, spiritual growth, and then food and body. So I know for me, the more I express, the more close I feel, the more I feel full as a human and connected. Michael Chad Hoeppner (02:15.352) Where do you want me to start on this? I mean, I think one of the great unexamined aspects of communication is that it is in fact a health and wellness intervention in our day, if we do it well. And let me just piggyback on what you said. I'm not even talking about emotionally, it feels good to connect with others. It feels bad to be stuck in like hostility when you process that, it feels better. I'm not even talking about that. talking about really simple things, mechanical things. In order to speak, you have to move. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:45.275) Yes. Michael Chad Hoeppner (02:49.73) Your diaphragm drops down, your lungs fill with air. In order to speak effectively, you're better off having tall posture so there's room for your diaphragm to move down, your lungs to fill with air. To speak well is actually a tiny way of moving your body in a dynamic coordinated way. It's like a little tiny bit of exercise each day. You could think of it that way. But even building one more thing about your point about devices. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:11.75) Yes. Michael Chad Hoeppner (03:17.078) I mean, goodness gracious, think of how much the time we're on screens versus being in some sort of dialogue with another human and we're called the social primate for a reason. We need that communication. So thank you for bringing this idea of health to this topic. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:34.608) You mentioned in the book, content is what we're saying, but delivery is everything. So whether we're in an angry space or we're wanting to get hired for a job or we're wanting to connect with a friend, the ways in which we deliver have a tremendous impact on our quality of life. Can you go into that for a moment? Michael Chad Hoeppner (04:00.014) Sure. Well, I'll put it to an example about devices, because you just asked about the text and things like that. Here's a perfect proof point, OK? If you've ever misread the emotional intent of a friend's text message, that's because you misheard their delivery. You thought they were saying like, call me back. And really, they were saying like, call me back. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:21.99) Right. Michael Chad Hoeppner (04:30.005) So that's like a very concrete example of how delivery matters so very much. And a lot of how we deliver things, it indicates our EQ. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:40.178) Right, right. Now you talk about linguistic precision. And I start since reading your book, I start to notice hmm, I do say the word like more than I perhaps would like like to. And there are these little words which seem to dilute this power. You have all these different exercises in the book, which I find really interesting. Can you give us a little clue or a little exercise or some insight into how one would start to cut back on those filler words since it's so common? Michael Chad Hoeppner (05:18.455) Sure. You've read the book, which I appreciate. Thank you. You'd be surprised at how many folks interview me and have not read the book. So first of all, thank you for that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:27.886) no, I read the, it's fascinating book by the way. Michael Chad Hoeppner (05:31.791) Thank you. Thank you. So I'm going to teach you an exercise that you already know, but your listeners might adore this exercise because on the one hand, it helps with a question you asked about, is like synoms and you knows, but take it in a different, different lens. also can be an amazing way to anchor into a sense of purpose or to set an intention or to really just dive into mindfulness, the exercise is called finger walking. And it's exactly like the title sounds. All you do is you walk your fingers across the table or desk, choosing each and every single word that comes out of your mouth. Now, I'm actually doing this right now, if you're just listening to the episode, if you're watching, you're seeing it, of course, but you use your fingers as a kinesthetic device. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:17.744) Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:29.681) Mmm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (06:29.698) to force yourself to choose words, not just open your mouth and see what words tumble out. If you don't know what to say next, you have to pause your fingers until you have figured out what words you want to choose. And if you struggle with this activity, the problem is not in your brain, it's not even in your mouth. It's that you weren't precise enough with your fingers. Think of it almost like a ballerina trying to walk through a field of tulips. without disturbing a single flower. Now I coach that with clients so that they can help eliminate those useless cluttered words that you're talking about. But you could also imagine setting an intention for the day and walking your fingers across the desk, choosing each word, seeing how much energy you can dedicate to really choosing each word and therefore being incredibly concrete about the day's goals. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:27.78) I love the physicality of what you teach. And there was another exercise involving blocks or Legos, which we have a lot of Legos having a five year olds and a nine, two, two boys, five and nine. And it's this, I think it was for pausing intentionally instead of just, you know, going on and on and rambling. So there's a really, most of us don't think of communication as having this really solid physicality. Michael Chad Hoeppner (07:40.269) Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:57.882) And it makes me think of the spiritual concept of embodiment, where we're embodying the energy of the words and we're not sort of fritting our energy away. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Michael Chad Hoeppner (08:09.71) really glad you brought up the word embodied because the fancy phrase for all of the exercises in this book is embodied cognition. So, know, cognition, thinking or learning embodied using the body. It's using your body to learn better communication practices. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:19.538) Mm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (08:30.51) and the Lego block exercise. As a funny aside, by the way, I relate to your Lego point. I've been running this company now for, you know, more than a decade and a half. I started it in 2010. So for the first five years of running the company, I did not have kids. And I had my first child, my daughter in 2015. So up until that point, I had to order Legos to have for clients. All of a kids come along and the house is littered with Legos. So now if I need it for a client, I just go and raid their toy chest, raid their Lego chest. Anyway, back to the point of the exercise. The way it works is as follows. You stack a Lego block at the end of every single idea. You can almost think of the Lego block as a period at the end of the sentence. So you pick up a Lego block, you say one idea or one sentence, and at the end of the sentence, you Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:55.609) wow. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:18.8) Right. Michael Chad Hoeppner (09:24.782) put it down in silence. Then you pick up the second Lego block, say the second idea at the end of that idea, kind of like the period at the end in silence, you click it in place on the previous. And third, and so on and so forth, building your communication. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:44.412) Brilliant. Well, Michael, even as we're talking, I'm aware that I naturally insert, yeah, right. Agreeing. Would you consider that filler? Would you say, hey, you and I are looking at each other right now and that's enough? Versus, I feel like I do that a lot and maybe many of us do that a lot in listening. You talk about how communication is really being engaged and focused. on the other party, nodding, but sometimes these little words, yes, got it. What do you think of those words? Michael Chad Hoeppner (10:21.91) Yeah, I'll put it this way. In the chapter on filler, I give two incredibly intuitive criteria for what filler is. And the first is, it's not grammatically necessary. And the second is that you're not aware you're doing it. Jokingly, I one time worked with a client who used the word viscerally as a filler. He would put the word viscerally into practically every sentence. Yeah, completely unnecessary and so random. So for him, the word viscerally was actually a filler, yes. But a lot of those words, like, as an example, it can be used in a way that is grammatically necessary. I feel like a piece of wood adrift in the sea. the word like is used in that situation as a symbol. Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:16.4) Sure. But anymore like this. Sure. Wow, you're talking these words to emphasize that I'm in agreement or I'm really listening to you. What do you think of those words? Michael Chad Hoeppner (11:18.242) but often that's jammed in. Michael Chad Hoeppner (11:30.886) I get it because what I would call those would be corroboration sounds, like you're corroborating for me that you're attentive. And I will put the same lens on it, which is if you're not aware you're doing it whatsoever, and it's not actually necessary, it's not helping the other person, it might be worth considering are there different ways to show and to indicate that I'm being attentive? But for most people, they're probably not a problem. They're probably a good thing, not a bad thing. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:36.752) Yes. Michael Chad Hoeppner (12:00.224) And to give everyone listening a little bit of a relief with this, the goal, and when I teach classes on presence around the world, the goal is not that you should have this kind of presence and you should make an mm-hmm sound every 75 seconds because that's the ideal. The goal is it presence is you. It's not me, it's not somebody else, it's not some universal normative ideal. Presence is you, but ironically, you, when you're thinking the very least about you and your presence, when you're thinking the most about reaching the other person. And that's why I think that the idea of this book can be so liberating and so fulfilling for the very topics that you speak about all the time, this idea being focused on mission, purpose, something bigger than oneself. Communication is a manifestation of that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:58.66) It's also, there's a spiritual angle that I kept coming back to when I was reading your book and putting attention on another. There's this yogic, Vedic concept of oneness beyond the ego, beyond the little self, and it's how we expand. And as you said, how funny when we're least thinking about ourselves and we're expansive, then there's real presence. There's an energy that comes in and then true connection can really be forged. Michael Chad Hoeppner (13:28.247) That's right. And what I would offer and submit is that when you're at your very best, and I mean this both about you, but I mean about everyone listening. When you're at your very best, really connected to the other person, really listening, whatever ratio of mm-hmms and yes and rights that you say is right for you. And when they go wrong is when all of a sudden you tip into self-consciousness and Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:51.026) Mm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (13:58.2) feeling inadequate and insecure and you're trying to almost overdo it, or rather you're multitasking and you're not really listening to the other person. You're just kind of, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, uh-huh, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:10.212) Right? You can feel when someone's doing that. Michael Chad Hoeppner (14:13.057) Yes. So as opposed to fixating on how should I or shouldn't I or how many or how few, instead, fixate on really trying to reach the other person and trusting that if you do that, all of what I call the behaviors of presence will unlock automatically. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:31.59) Michael, how did you even get into this work and how did this become your focus, communication? Michael Chad Hoeppner (14:37.995) Yeah, I come at it from a professional acting background originally, but the work went in a very different direction when I started the company in 2010, because I began to experiment with exactly what we're talking about today, embodied tools, kinesthetic tools to teach people the fundamental building blocks of speaking, like pausing, like choosing words. like using their voices and their bodies to set an intention or to reach someone across the room. And so I began coaching people to stack Lego blocks or to throw a wiffle ball or to speak with an impediment in between their teeth. And what happened is that people got much, much better very quickly. And by 2014, I was teaching at Columbia Business School and 2016 offering some feedback on presidential politics. And I don't suggest that that of track to brag about me. I mention it because no one was doing this. No one was thinking about communication from a deeply kinesthetic approach. And I still think there's a lot to be gained from this kind of approach. And I really hope that your listeners, if they take nothing away from this conversation besides this, I am a communication athlete. I am a communication instrument. And if I use my body in different ways, I can dramatically alter my communication. So anyway, that's kind of how I got into it also why I still am very committed and very passionate about it today 15 years later. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:05.138) Mm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:18.514) There's an interesting part in the book where you talk about confidence, which seems to come up a lot in our community. We get a lot of questions and comments about wanting to feel more confident. you know, for many people, there's so many different ways to achieve that. Sometimes it's this external focus, which can lead to even a hyper fixation on the body. Sometimes it's wanting to achieve more. You say something in the book and I'm paraphrasing, of course, that you don't have to feel confident to project confidence. Is this sort of like the fake it till you make it idea? Tell us your view of confidence and how communication can play a part. Michael Chad Hoeppner (17:05.291) Yeah, this is a huge topic. So you have to promise to interrupt me midstream if I go on too long on this one, because we could do a whole podcast on this one question. OK. First of all, you are not paraphrasing. You actually quoted from the book brilliantly. That's exactly what I say in the book. And to be very clear to your listeners, I'm not suggesting that confidence is not a great feeling. It is. And I'm also not suggesting that confidence isn't relevant in many aspects of our life. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:10.898) Okay. Michael Chad Hoeppner (17:33.292) What I'm trying to do is liberate people from a confidence trap that affects their communication. Confidence trap with communication is essentially when I feel confident, I speak well. When I don't feel confident, I fail. And what happens is that people chase the feeling of confidence. And the more they chase the feeling of confidence, often the more ephemeral it is. And then, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:40.57) Okay. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:01.49) Sure. Michael Chad Hoeppner (18:02.219) they begin to blame themselves and fall into self-critique and even like shame and things like that. And I have found in almost two decades now of doing this with everyone from presidential candidates to high school students, the much faster and the much more fun route, by the way, to become much better at speaking is to embrace this idea of I'm going to learn to do the behaviors. that allow me to communicate really, really well and I'm not gonna obsess about my feelings of confidence a little bit. So in a way, to get back to your question on the fake it till you make it, in a way it's related, but it's not the same thing. What I'm suggesting is if you focus on these behaviors, not only will you come across better, but they may in fact actually help you say smarter stuff. And it may in fact ultimately change how you feel. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:34.812) Hmm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (18:59.405) Two, take the finger walking activity. just taught a couple of minutes ago. Let's say you practice doing that on remote calls. Instead of just opening your mouth and speaking at forwards per second as fast as you possibly can to show that you know everything, but also getting tongue-tied and getting stuck and then forgetting to breathe and feeling nervous. Did that pretty quickly, obviously. If instead on those calls, you practice using this finger walking exercise. One, you're going to say much more specific, accurate, articulate stuff. two, because you're speaking more slowly, as unlocked using embodied cognition, you're going to have more time to actually think of what you want to say and maybe even breathe. And those things might unlock greater confidence. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:47.61) I can't help but go back to how your book is, I see the word accidentally spiritual. My last book, Michael, was about heart coherence. So the energetic, the physical heart. And there is another line that you talk about not paying so much attention to your emotions and thoughts, but rather this physicality. And we could say that in a lot of, you know, meditative mind, I really like the word mindfulness, could say, heart based consciousness raising techniques where thoughts are based on perception and our perceptions can shift greatly depending on the state of our nervous system. Am I right? And then our emotions are fleeting and sometimes we identify with them. And of course that would affect how you come across, you're communicating. So I really liked how you just kept bringing it back to posture, physicality, breathing, which I want to talk about next, because there's a steadiness in that. And it gives us something to focus on beyond these thoughts, which can really lead us astray. Michael Chad Hoeppner (20:56.823) There's a reason that yoga fixates on these very specific moves and poses. And you don't go into a yoga practice trying to feel confident or trying to think of all the important things in your life. You simply do these very regimented, very powerful flow. And that unlocks, yeah, and that unlocks a lot of really great, you know, positive knock on effect. So, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:18.162) for the Oscar. Yes. Michael Chad Hoeppner (21:25.759) I'm quite flattered actually that you're talking about the accidental spirituality in this book. I think it maps very straight ahead. And I'll tell you why. All the great religious traditions feature something about focusing on the other, not the self, not fixating on the self, focusing on the other, offering, do unto others, these sorts of things. And communication is the human superpower Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:46.16) Correct. Michael Chad Hoeppner (21:55.276) to do that, you this massive vocabulary so that we can focus on and reach and help the other person. So if really practiced well, communication can even be a spiritual daily practice of being other focused. So I take it as a compliment. Now, it doesn't seem like, I don't feel like you're shoehorning this into the discussion whatsoever. I think there's a lot of alignment there. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:08.722) Mm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:13.691) I love it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:21.98) There is, and I was not looking for it, to be honest, and it came across organically as I was reading. So, new confidence, we talked about that, and there's this section in the book where there's kids' faces, and it made me laugh a little bit. I believe it was this section where you're talking about having a greater range of ourselves instead of monotony that we can sometimes fall into for different reasons. And I think you said something about trying to get into an eye contact. contest with my five year old. I think about my five year old or my nine year old is so convincing and he'll do all sorts of things. Can you talk about range and what it means and why it's important to cultivate again as adults if perhaps we have lost it? Michael Chad Hoeppner (23:09.409) Yeah, we come into this world and the first thing we do is we breathe and then we scream. So communication is ultimately the very first thing when we enter planet Earth or planet Earth's atmosphere, however you would say it. we tend to as kids have a tremendous amount of range. First of all, the human voice naturally has this massive range. If you don't believe me, just think of a kid crying and screaming, a little baby is huge range. And also kids, because they're resourceful, because they're resourceful humans, they learn lots of different tactics to try to get what they want. But then we get put into society. and professional situations and we get taught to constrain all of that and be more professional and I'm putting professional in air quotes. What it typically means for most people is just be a deeply reduced version of yourself. I'm not talking about bring one's whole self to work. I'm actually talking about something much more fundamental which is literally how much you breathe. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:11.41) Mm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:22.135) how much musicality you do or do not have in your voice, how much you move your face, how much you move your hands, how forcefully and dynamically you articulate your words. And yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (24:33.543) Can you pause for a second, Michael? You said musicality. What do you mean by that? Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:38.155) Yeah, well, in the chapter on vocal variety, I talk about the musicality of our voices. This means not the words, it means the sounds of the words. And in that chapter, I anchor musicality to vocal variety and in fact to five P's pace, pitch, pause, power and placement. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:05.2) Mmm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (25:05.737) Ace is speed, so that's fast and slow. Pitch is high and low, so like musical note up or down. Pause is silence, that's what that Lego block activity you asked me about, that's what that unlocks. Power is another word for volume, loud and quiet. And then placement means where the sound primarily is placed within the body. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:12.338) Thank Michael Chad Hoeppner (25:34.337) back to this concept you and I are talking about of embodied embodiment and embodied cognition. Your sound in your body resonates differently in different parts of your body. When you have a cold and your nose is all stuffed up, your voice sounds different because you've altered how the sound can amplify in your sinus passages or not. So that's the fifth P placement. And in the chapter I talked about some research that we looked at, I did with some other academics around the country. And we looked at politicians and those who used these five Ps to speak were better evaluated by their audiences, more authentic, more real, more dominant, more competent, all kinds of good stuff. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (26:21.49) When you were doing that, Michael, which is very interesting, by the way, I can recall people, maybe we all can recall people who, women in particular, have very high voices and it's all the time. Do you think we can manipulate our voices in all communication? And you talk about habits and reinforcing them, learning these patterns. Do you have you seen people, I'll phrase it this way, that have been in a certain tone for whatever reason, and then through unlocking more communication range and expression, literally their voice drops down and they change. Because sometimes you think, is that person, is that their real voice? Were they born with a voice that high? And I'm sure people have that natural voice, but some people, almost feels like they're creating it. Michael Chad Hoeppner (27:15.405) I have only seen the dynamic that you're talking about every day that ends in the letter Y. Okay. Yeah. And by that, I mean that in the chapter on this, talk about, it's total misnomer how we speak about our voices. People say like, I hate the sound of my voice. I have a blank voice. I'm scratchy, shrill, annoying, whatever it is. And then what I write right after is like, you don't have a voice. Well. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:25.414) Well put, well put, okay. Michael Chad Hoeppner (27:52.747) That's not true. You do have a voice. But I try to be pretty provocative with my language and point out you don't have a voice as in like your voice. You create sound. You create, you turn air into sound and then shape that sound into words. And depending on how you're using your body, your voice changes and changes dramatically. And it's not even just like a lifetime from shrill to not shrill. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:06.608) Right. Michael Chad Hoeppner (28:21.152) Think of this, your voice sounds different when you wake up from a long nap and you're kind of groggy. Sounds different after maybe a glass of wine if you're having an evening conversation. Sounds different after exercising because you are a musical instrument. Takes more than 120 muscles to do this everyday miracle of turning air into sound and then sound into words. And your voice sounds different depending on how you use your body. So yeah, if people use their bodies differently, their voice changes and changes dramatically. So yes to your question. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (28:59.122) For listeners that have been hearing me do this podcast for a while or new listeners, just sort of this real time role play, you give us an experience, how you work with people. What would you say or there are any tips you would say about my voice? And I won't take offense, of course, like I'm very interested in how you can hone in. Michael Chad Hoeppner (29:22.092) Sure. Okay. Now to be clear, hey audience, everybody listening, is a fun thing because we did not exchange questions in advance. Kimberly did not send me a whole bunch of questions. I generally know what people are gonna ask because I wrote the darn book, okay? But this one is completely unscripted. We're just shooting from the hip with this as are all these questions, but I'll put it right back to you. How direct and how... Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:23.986) You're like, where do I start? Michael Chad Hoeppner (29:50.806) how straightforward you want me to be with my feedback. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:55.31) I'd love to hear how you would work with a client. Michael Chad Hoeppner (29:59.703) Sure, with you though or just any client? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:04.452) I mean, how you go again, I look at a new client coming to you. say, Hey, this is part of my work. love having a podcast. also do quite a bit of speaking and daily conversations. I would like to improve just like all of us listening to this. Even if, yeah. Michael Chad Hoeppner (30:27.092) Yeah. So I'm going to give you a bunch of compliments then. Please don't let it go to your head and then I'll give you a couple thoughts too. In general, I think your communication is an extraordinary asset. So why do I say that? One, you read the book. Two, you ask very, very intelligent, specific questions about the book. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (30:33.274) Okay. Yes. Michael Chad Hoeppner (30:49.898) but not just to make the author feel good. You ask questions that hopefully help your listeners gain something from this time they're investing in this podcast. So you're showing tremendous other focus, both with your attention on me and your intention on your audience. Opposite of the question you asked me earlier, you demonstrate tremendous listening too. You do have these sort of corroboration sounds used from time to time. Physically, you're responding to me all the time. You're also quite self-aware because at the very beginning you were able to say with full transparency, total lack of defensiveness, I'm feeling very self-conscious about this right now because I'm talking to a communication expert, but you did not let the self-consciousness of that prevent you from having the conversation. Self-consciousness gone too far really just becomes selfishness in a way. Because your audience doesn't actually care if you're nervous. They just care. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:26.738) you Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (31:43.026) Mmm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (31:47.723) Am I getting something out of this conversation or not? So these are some of the tremendous strengths you bring to the table. Beyond that, your enunciation is perfectly adequate. Adequate sounds like I'm being insulting, I'm not. What I mean is, there's no word that you've said in anywhere in this podcast that I had a difficult time understanding because of lack of enunciation. That's a strength. Physically, this is probably a lot of the work you've done on wellness anyway. If you look at your posture, your head is more or less like a helium balloon floating up off the long string of your spine. Your eyes are pretty much anchored in the middle of your head, so you're not like craning your neck back like so. From what I can tell, I can't really see your diaphragm and your lower part of your torso, but it looks as though you're breathing and your voice sounds like you're breathing. So a bunch of these boxes would just be like, check, check, check, check, check, check. Then of course, everyone's listening for, well, where's the butt, Michael? What are we gonna get to next? Yeah, yeah. So the place that would put your attention would actually be on these same five Ps, pace, pitch, pause, power, placement. And the reason I would bring your attention there is because you speak with a tremendous. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:45.744) We're getting to the good stuff. Michael Chad Hoeppner (33:04.886) facility in terms of choosing words, demonstrating patience, demonstrating listening. I mean, I've even noticed talking to you that because of the way in which you speak and because humans are reciprocal, my instinct has been to actually slow my rate of speech, dial back some of the sort of five Pisa vocal variety I might use to try to engage an audience to meet the kind of energy that you're using. But any vocal variety pattern taken too far becomes constancy. Constancy, I'll do constancy so you can hear it right now. Constancy would technically be that you never deviated any of the five P's no matter what it is. You don't sound like that, okay? And in fact, if you just listen to that, that was probably hard to even decipher what the heck I was saying. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (33:42.798) Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:02.844) Robotic. Michael Chad Hoeppner (34:03.838) Yeah, robotic, because you're speaking in absolute uniformity. So what this means is that if you have a strong impulse, you probably could afford to allow words to stream out of your mouth even more quickly at times. You could probably afford to use even more volume to reach your audience at times, not because you speak too softly or you speak too slowly. No, because we as humans use these five P's. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:18.482) Yeah Michael Chad Hoeppner (34:32.908) to reach each other. They can go too far, by the way. You can go from constancy, past coherence, all the way into chaos, like bad AI software in which the thing sounds like that and we don't know what we're hearing. It can be too much, right? But there's no world in which most people ever get to that category of chaos. So you could experiment with what is it like actually to allow Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:42.287) Right. Michael Chad Hoeppner (35:00.338) more energy, even though I'm working on like mindfulness, intentionality, physical bearing, you could experiment with what happens if I allow more of those five Ps to be included in my speech. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:14.802) love that. Thank you so much, Michael. That's really insightful, obviously, and interesting. And I agree, I meditate a lot, I do a lot of these heart practices. So I feel like I'm generally in a certain frequency. But to your point, I could still be calm and loving and all the ways in which I want to be in the world, but it can be a little more. It sounds more to even do higher or faster paced at times which you know, there's no reason that that energy can't be worked with and still consistent. Michael Chad Hoeppner (35:49.259) Yes, and here's the totally liberating thing for you, for me, for everyone listening. You know how to do this already, I promise you. I want you to imagine this thought experiment, okay? And it's in the book, so you know probably where I'm going with this, but still indulge me and let's do this thought experiment. A dear friend of yours comes to you and they're in a genuine crisis. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (35:56.433) Bye! Michael Chad Hoeppner (36:11.05) you know, considering bailing on their career and doing something radical, gonna leave their loved one, gonna do some rash decision, whatever it is, okay? They're in some kind of crisis and they come to you for some help and you speak with them for a while and what you're trying to do, whether you're even aware you're doing it or not, What you're trying to do is help them find some peace and some serenity so they can make a better decision. And you're so partially by trying to indicate and exude to them that kind of energy. But let's say it's not working, okay? It's not working at all. At a certain point, you would probably give up and change entirely. And then you would say like, whoa, stop, hang on, wait, time out. Let's get up, come on, let's go for a walk. We're gonna talk this out. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:36.816) Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:45.328) Wait. Michael Chad Hoeppner (36:57.248) you would change tactic, not because you were trying to do different communication styles. You would change because what you were doing previously wasn't working. And humans are resourceful. do this with five Ps all the Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (37:09.81) Beautiful. The way you explained it feels so organic and natural as well. Michael, I could ask you a million questions. I think this topic in your book is really fascinating. we close out, before we close out, is there one simple breathing tip perhaps or one sort of takeaway that you find in your work almost anyone, everyone could benefit from in their communication? Michael Chad Hoeppner (37:38.335) I do. It's called silent storytelling. I've mentioned two tools already on this one, the finger walking exercise for linguistic precision, the Lego block activity for learning how to pause and structure your thoughts. But this one is perhaps the most powerful of all because it tends to get people to do what they already do in real life when they're at their best, which is use more of themselves. Silent storytelling just means you speak but without sound. So it's like the exercise sound, silent storytelling. You talk on some subject matter, but you're essentially lip syncing. You're not allowed to make sound. You have to mouth the words. You have to allow your face to be as active as possible to indicate what you're thinking. You have to let your hands get in on the story too, because they have a story to tell as well. And you use all of your physical and vocal communication instrument. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (38:08.113) Mm-hmm. Michael Chad Hoeppner (38:37.568) but mouthing words the whole time. So almost like you're a very energized version of yourself that's been put on mute on television. Do that for a few minutes and then guess what? Put sound back into the equation and allow sound to come back in your voice and what you will find out is first, wow, my voice sounds completely different. But number two, I'm using so much more of myself than I typically do. And this might even feel more like how you actually talk in real life. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (38:46.652) Wow. Michael Chad Hoeppner (39:06.08) than how you have learned to talk in the various professional narratives that we live in in our life. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (39:11.792) Wow, that's an amazing exercise that I did read about and I will try. I read through and the Lego one stood out and now taking time to actually do the practices like you said will really bring this to life. And you also say in the book, a lot of people don't do exercises in books and it's sort of silly. Why wouldn't we want to benefit from the wisdom that we're learning? So Michael, this is all so interesting. Tell us. where we can find out more about you, of course, where we can get the book. And even if someone's maybe interested in becoming a client or going even deeper in your work. Michael Chad Hoeppner (39:50.645) Yeah. Well, the URL for my company is very simple. It's just GK Training. I'm the founder and head of GK Training. It's just gktraining.com. So if folks are interested in coaching or learning more about what we do, that's the place to go. The book you can find there, but you can also find it a very easy URL, which is don'tsayum.com. Don'tsayum.com. And then in terms of just personal, easiest for me is LinkedIn. That's Michael Chad Heppner at LinkedIn. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (40:24.078) Wonderful. Well, thank you again so much, Michael. Really appreciate it. And there's so many takeaways that I will be using myself. Everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. We will link directly to Michael's site and his book and his work at mysaloon.com. where you'll also find links to other articles, shows, resources that we think you'll enjoy. I will be back here in a few days. Otherwise, I'll also see you on socials at underscore Kimberly Snyder and also on our Saluna website. Till then, take great care. Thank you so much for being part of the community and sending you all so much love.

This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Ann Shippy Summary: In this conversation, Dr. Ann Shippy discusses the significance of infertility as a health indicator, likening it to a check engine light that signals underlying health issues. She emphasizes the importance of both partners’ health in enhancing fertility and ensuring the birth of healthier babies. About Dr. Ann Shippy Dr. Ann Shippy is a Board-Certified Internal Medicine physician and certified Functional Medicine practitioner based in Austin, Texas. With a background in chemical engineering and a successful career at IBM, she transitioned to medicine after facing her own complex health challenges—an experience that fuels her passion for uncovering and addressing the root causes of illness. Her work centers around four key areas of expertise: longevity, health span (increasing the number of years lived in vibrant, disease-free health), unlocking better outcomes through personalized, data-driven care, and preconception—supporting couples as they prepare to conceive the healthiest baby possible. Using advanced testing and epigenetic insights, Dr. Shippy empowers patients to activate the body’s innate ability to heal, thrive, and even reverse chronic conditions. Motivated by the alarming rise in childhood illness, Dr. Shippy felt a deep urgency to provide answers. That urgency led her to write The Preconception Revolution: A Science-Backed Path to Your Fertility and Generational Health—a hope-filled guide that empowers couples to take control of their fertility and future family health. The book offers a clear, actionable blueprint for reversing the childhood health crisis—one healthy baby at a time. With degrees from Washington University in St. Louis, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and the University of Texas, Dr. Shippy brings a unique blend of engineering precision and medical insight to her work. Her practice—Ann Shippy, MD— is dedicated to helping individuals live better—and get better—with age. Guest Resources: Book: THE PRECONCEPTION REVOLUTION: A Science-Backed Path to Fertility and Generational Health Website: annshippymd.com Social: @annshippymd   Episode Sponsors: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY   ANIMA MUNDI OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS, benefit driven Herbal Teas infused with harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase!   Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Fertility and Generational Health 00:24 The Impact of Lifestyle on Fertility   SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo   Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.446)Dr. Anne, thank you so much for joining us here today. Ann Shippy MD (00:05.646)excited for this conversation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:08.049)I’m excited too, as I mentioned to you right before we got on the show, I actually did read your full book, which is very comprehensive, The Preconception Revolution, Science-Backed Path to Your Fertility and Generational Health. Can you tell us a little bit, just as we start, Dr. Anne, how you decided to focus on this specific subject in your career, in your work, helping women or helping families have… healthy children, how did that become the focus? Ann Shippy MD (00:39.51)It was kind of this accidental confluence of information. I feel so lucky that I was able to pull this all together for people. I had gone through my own infertility journey before medical school and then during residency. And then I started seeing these amazing things happen with my patients. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:03.271)Bye! Ann Shippy MD (01:05.23)around this topic. Like what does it actually take to have good fertility and healthy babies both, right? We don’t want to just get pregnant. We want to have our, you know, give our children the best shot at having a good healthy life, right? So one of my early patients, I had only been in practice a couple of years and she was 41 and she’d finally gotten married and had the love of her life. And she just had the intuition. She’d heard about me and she was like, Dr. Shippey, I know I really need to prepare my body more to be pregnant. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:16.059)Yes. Ann Shippy MD (01:34.91)And so we worked her up. We looked at her microbiome. We looked at her toxin levels. And she actually had really high mercury. Yeah. And so I loved that. That was a really early story of like, really need to listen to my patient’s intuitions. And so we worked together for six to nine months and finally gave her the green light go. And she had a healthy baby right away at 41, 42. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:42.727)BWOY! Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:00.967)Wow. Ann Shippy MD (02:03.05)So that taught me, okay, we can really help people to have healthy babies even into their 40s. And then a couple years later, I had a patient come in who also just found me by word of mouth and she had done IVF a couple times. was in her mid 30s and she failed IVF a couple of times. And so then nobody else wanted to give her another shot at it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:28.264)Mmm. Ann Shippy MD (02:28.556)So we did the same kind of thing. We worked her up, found out what was out of balance in her body, how we could really build the resources in her body. And long behold, less than a year later, she was pregnant and had a healthy baby. And then she actually got pregnant with twins while she was still nursing the first one. She got so pregnant. Yes. And then had a birth. So she had, she ended up with four children, under four, after being told that she couldn’t, you know. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:53.512)Wow. Ann Shippy MD (02:58.446)into her 30s. So my patients taught me that when we’re really healthy, can get past the fertility issues and have healthy babies. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:09.352)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:14.482)You know, it’s really interesting, Dr. Rans reading your book and just thinking about friends that I know that, you know, and there’s we’re in a time and you mentioned this in the book where some companies are, you know, giving a stipend for freezing your eggs and sort of going down that pathway. But it just seems like so many people are going right to IVF and they’re even late, like 20s. And I just say for me, it didn’t even it wasn’t in my consciousness, you know, and I don’t know, like I don’t know, it just seems like a time when IVF is becoming more and more popular at younger ages. And do you think that’s connected to the toxin level and people are struggling? Or do you think it’s just because women are wanting to delay having babies because of their careers? Combination. Ann Shippy MD (04:03.822)Yes, I think it’s all the confluence of things, right? The sperm counts are going down. They’ve gone down 50 % in 50 years and it’s accelerating. It was 1 % a year. Now it’s almost 2.5 % decline in sperm counts per year. So we’ve got that along with people waiting a little longer. And then… the drop in fertility. The latest number that I saw was one in six couples deal with infertility, which is not getting pregnant in a year. There is another number circulating, I haven’t found the source yet, of one in five, so this fertility issue’s accelerating. And then I think it’s the narrative of what the conversation is that we’re normalizing IVF, we’re normalizing IVOI, and using the clomid and other things. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:40.157)Mm. Ann Shippy MD (04:55.532)rather than being weight, infertility is actually a sign, it’s like a check engine light. It’s like the body saying, wait, we’re not, like something’s off because we’re born to like procreate the species. That’s been the amazing thing of how, you know, like it’s just part of our makeup to have children. And so I think… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:01.607)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:11.098)Yeah. Ann Shippy MD (05:24.32)If you’ve got that check engine light on, especially you want to pause and figure out what needs to happen in both partners to really enhance their health so that then they can not just have better fertility, but healthier babies. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:39.356)Right. Yes, and it’s like you said, it’s a natural biological function. We’re seeing that across the board where people are having trouble, know, digesting, they’re having trouble sleeping, they’re having trouble, you know, having energy, they’re pumped up with caffeine. So it seems like there’s many aspects of our lifestyle as a collective that need to be re-examined, this being one of them. Ann Shippy MD (06:02.766)So in addition to having all these patient experiences where I can see that people are often very fertile well into their 40s. My oldest patient is 47 right now. And after doing a few months of work, we’ve worked on her health for a little over three months. She gave me a little bit of time. She didn’t want to wait too long at 47. But she got pregnant on her first try, and she’s five months in now. So we don’t have a healthy baby yet, but it’s teaching me. what it takes to be fertile. So when we look at root causes of these things, you mentioned the environmental toxicity, I think that’s a really important piece for us to look at, not just for fertility, but the health of the future child, and then how important it is to eat the nutrient-dense foods. It’s really hard to… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:46.968)Yes. Ann Shippy MD (06:55.822)have a healthy sperm and healthy egg and then a healthy body to grow the baby in if you’re not just full of nutrients because all of these reproductive mechanisms run on nutrients. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:06.96)Right. Well, it’s funny, Dr. Anne, how, you know, I’m sure you see all types of people and different parts of their journey. I could say for myself, I wasn’t focused on pregnancy, but I was sort of turning my body around. had a lot of, you know, constipation and acne and bloating. And so I was eating so many greens and so much fiber. And so when I went to have Kids I did I was lucky enough to have them on the pretty much the first try each and then my grandmother from the Philippines Like your client she had babies to 48. So there’s these incredible possibilities we have but so much of the you conversation today is quite Negative and like again rushing to do IVF and everybody’s struggling and it’s so hard. So it’s nice to feel and to hear a bit of Ann Shippy MD (07:41.954)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:59.548)hopefulness and also that that doesn’t have to be the way. there’s a, you know, there’s this whole other healthy way we can make choices, we can re nourish the body and you know, so many of the different things that you talk about in the book, which we’ll get into in just a moment. Ann Shippy MD (08:16.086)It really is exciting. It’s, you know, IVF is so expensive. It’s so hard on women’s bodies. It’s stressful for the partner too, because they’re, you know, they’re feeling out of control. so when we can find a way to really restore the body and to help people to be fertile, that’s amazing. And then what I really see the big opportunity is to based on this is that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:26.182)Yeah. Ann Shippy MD (08:45.58)when people give themselves the three, six, 12 months before they get pregnant to really optimize their body. It’s like creating time capsules that the egg and the sperm are so that the baby has healthier epigenetics, how the genes are being dialed up and dialed down. really, for me, this is not just an infertility opportunity. This is helping to solve the children’s health crisis that we have with one in 31 children being diagnosed with. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:55.3)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:12.465)Yes. Ann Shippy MD (09:15.52)autism and the mental health and the diabetes and the autoimmunity, the cancer, all these things that we’re seeing happen in children. The research backs this up now how important the epigenetics are to really address before you get pregnant to help have a healthier baby. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:35.11)And one of the things that you talk about in the book is the correlation between boosting our mitochondrial health, specifically, independent of how old, maternal age. Can you talk a little bit about that and how we could do that specifically? Ann Shippy MD (09:49.996)That is one of my favorite topics because it applies to everybody. So even if people are listening and they’re like, yeah, I’ve already had my kids or I’m not going to have them for a while, this is something we all need to be focusing on. So mitochondria are the little organelles inside the cell that make energy. So they’re little powerhouses that really run everything. They help us to detoxify, to rebuild things. They do everything. And unfortunately, a lot of people’s mitochondria are getting Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:52.456)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:01.042)Yeah. Ann Shippy MD (10:20.288)injured or aren’t working optimally because of the environmental toxins that are building up in people’s bodies are not having all the right nutrients or having inflammation in the body. The mitochondria are responsible for keeping up with, you know, not having the fire go to get out of balance and basically be burning down LA. So Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:23.4)Okay. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:40.838)But what an analogy Dr. Edward, always so sensitive to fire that that really sinks in, you know. Ann Shippy MD (10:49.784)So we all need to be tending to our mitochondria. And there’s some amazing research around what we can do to help them. And it’s one of the things that I really see the impact with my patients, whether they have a chronic illness like Parkinson’s, or they’re just wanting to really work on their longevity, or we’re preparing for healthy babies. So there are things that help those mitochondria to Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:04.793)Ugh. Ann Shippy MD (11:18.904)work better. So things like CoQ10 and a special form of CoQ10 that I love called MitoQ, alpha lipoic acid, carnitine, B vitamins, D ribose. So there are so many things that you can put into your concoction of mitochondrial support and you can do some trial and error and see what you like the best. Astaxymetham’s another one, but you can’t go wrong with any of those things. They are all going to help your mitochondria be better. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:30.632)Hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:39.388)Yes. Ann Shippy MD (11:47.008)And then our cell membranes and our mitochondrial membranes all really benefit from something called phosphatidylcholine, or I call it PC for short. And it also is just one of the really good things, especially for women, great for men too, but to be taking to build healthy babies because a lot of what we’re doing as we’re growing a baby is making new mitochondria and new cells in their bodies. And so having plenty of phosphatidylcholine. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:53.981)Mm. Ann Shippy MD (12:13.656)can help in it, especially for people that are doing a plant-based diet. They may not be getting enough choline and phosphatidylcholine. So that would be my number one thing. If you’re just going to pick one thing to take in this preconception period, take the phosphatidylcholine because it’s going to help that baby to grow as well as help your agate sperm be healthier. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:17.735)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:36.924)I read then the book, Doctor, and we see a lot of prenatals that contain choline, but you say there’s, should also be taking the phosphatocolline. That’s a word. You should take both. You should specifically seek that out, or are there prenatals that contain both? Ann Shippy MD (12:48.43)Take them. Ann Shippy MD (12:53.652)I don’t know of any prenatals that have it yet. It has to be separate from what I’ve seen. That’s actually not a bad business idea. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:56.164)Got it. Because I hear a lot about colon, we hear that a lot, your literature, your book was the first I had heard about taking that as well. Also, we hear about taking DHA to make sure we’re early pregnancy or all of pregnancy. That’s also an important supplement for babies’ health. Ann Shippy MD (13:19.966)Yeah, you know, I tend to stay away from anything that’s hormonal, preconception and during pregnancy. Okay, perfect. Because yeah, DEA is something we make in our body and there are people that take it to support their bodies, but yeah, the DHA, I like really hesitant. But yes, the omega-3s are super important again for building those cell membranes and you know, brain heart, all the things. Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:26.408)I’m sorry, EEPA, D-A-S-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A-E-P-A- Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:36.226)make a fact. Yes, yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:49.576)So another thing that was really interesting in your book, Doctor, that I’ve been hearing more research around is NAD. And I remember I had an NAD infusion to help me get over COVID, which was amazing. I felt so clear. I felt so good. But I’m also hearing people talk about doing it for mitochondrial health as well. Can you share with us a little bit about that? And if people are interested, should they be doing NAD? while they’re pregnant, both the micro daily injections or oral NAD. Ann Shippy MD (14:24.268)Yeah, so just to give you a context, really think about if pregnancy is different than preconception versus like when you’re trying to conceive. there’s kind of preconception, trying to conceive and pregnancy. So NAD, I love preconception. Like some of my patients will actually come, they’ll do it orally to help with mitochondrial function, because it is a good booster for mitochondria. And then they’ll do… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:37.895)Right. Ann Shippy MD (14:53.196)do it IV because it’s kind of like a little bit of a car wash. You don’t have to do that, but if you have access to it and have the resources to do it, it is great. It’s a tool that I use if I’ve been traveling, if I’ve known I’ve gotten a toxic exposure, it’s my best reset. During COVID, it was amazing. Even now, I some patients that come in after the flu, COVID, anything to Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:57.477)Yeah, mega jokes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:14.472)Yes. Ann Shippy MD (15:22.626)just get a little reset. When we get into the trying to conceive period, I’m a little bit more conservative. Like I want men to be careful about what, know, anything that might push the body to detox a little bit too much or women to detox a little bit too much. So that is kind of an individual decision based on, you know, a patient for me, because I don’t want to do anything that’s kind of want to do it. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:37.755)Okay. Ann Shippy MD (15:50.766)too big of a detox right around the time that we’re actually conceiving. And then during pregnancy, I’m very conservative. Like I really believe in a lot of the building block kinds of things, but we don’t want to push the body to be detoxifying too much. We really want to be, so anything that might help the body to detox too much. So I wouldn’t do like a glutathione IV, I wouldn’t do any significant IVs during. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:53.572)Okay. Ann Shippy MD (16:17.336)during pregnancy because I just don’t want to take, like I’m risk averse in that situation. If I don’t have data to know that the baby’s going to be okay, I’m going to look for other alternatives. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:21.178)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:28.786)So even the oral NAD you wouldn’t recommend during pregnancy. Okay. Ann Shippy MD (16:31.47)Actually the oral is fine. The IV just pushes the body a little bit more that you might do a little bit more detox. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:38.824)got it. Because I hear people doing, and I know you talk about in the book avoiding peptides and hormone replacement, but I know there’s brands that are doing like 30 micrograms a day, like tiny amounts of NAD. Do you think that would help with embryonic health potentially? Ann Shippy MD (16:58.338)before pregnancy and then after pregnancy, just would need some to feel and to see some data to feel comfortable with it. Yeah. So what I’d love to do is prime the body as much as possible in this preconception period and have it like everything supercharged. It’s like, you know, when I travel, I have my phone charged, my computer charged, and I have a backup battery that’s all charged. So we want to get all the charges in place and then say, go and then maintain. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:59.794)Don’t. Yeah, no, that’s clear. That’s good information. Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:17.809)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:25.286)Yeah, I got it. Ann Shippy MD (17:27.884)the charging, we don’t want to do too much supercharging. That could be a risk. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:34.534)What do you say to patients, Dr. Anne, they’ve done the program, they’ve cleansed, they’ve done a lot of your protocols. And I want to get into stress and autoimmune in just a moment, but they’re doing it and the program’s successful and they get pregnant. But then how do you counsel your clients about avoiding miscarriage or if some people have repeated miscarriage? I know you mentioned progesterone in the book. Ann Shippy MD (18:01.216)Yeah. So I do track progesterone really carefully right after conception. Because sometimes people need that. It’s interesting because I feel like there’s before the last couple of years, I thought that you were more likely to need the progesterone, you know, with the older age, right? Like maybe later thirties and early forties. But what I’ve seen happen now is like the more Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:21.959)Yeah. Ann Shippy MD (18:28.846)crime the body is, the better the, especially when we have partners that will also prep that a lot of times you don’t need the progesterone, but it is a really, I do like to monitor it in that first trimester and make sure that the body is making a good amount of progesterone. And then if somebody is having recurrent miscarriages, we got to dig deeper as to why. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:36.072)you Ann Shippy MD (18:58.326)So one of the more common things that can happen is the toxic exposure you don’t realize. toxic mold, the black mold, isn’t just an allergen, but it’s actually making chemicals that are very strong and very dangerous have been one of the root causes when we’ve dug into things to find out what’s going on with miscarriage. There can also be a genetic predisposition to clotting. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:03.88)Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:24.988)Mm-hmm. Ann Shippy MD (19:26.7)So then we wanna do some gene testing and see, do you have a predisposition where your body starts clotting really easily? And if that’s the case, it’s so treatable. just take, depending on what the gene is, you might take some aspirin or you might take an injection with lovinox. Then the other thing we wanna do is look for, is there a situation where there’s some autoimmunity? So antiphospholipid antibodies. Looking back at my story, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:51.836)Okay. Ann Shippy MD (19:54.988)that probably was one of the reasons that I wasn’t getting pregnant. was having super probably having super early miscarriages because I would feel like, okay, my body feels different. But then I would have ended up starting bleeding and then have a heavy period. So and then later on found that nobody was looking for looked at it for me. It was before I went to medical school and and then during residency before I had all this information. So then we wanna do those blood tests to look for autoimmune, it’s called anti-cardiolipin or anti-phospholipid. And again, it’s good news if you find it because then you know, okay, well, that’s at the root of it. And a lot of times what the traditional medical model will do is just band-aid that with a medication to thin the blood a little bit. But in… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:36.775)Yeah. Ann Shippy MD (20:48.834)my world with the functional medicine where we’re looking at the root causes of, wait, why did the body get confused and start attacking itself? So we find out why and we get those things healed. So a lot of times there’s a gluten sensitivity or celiac, or there’s a shift in the microbiome. There’s a low grade infection like Candida in the gut that the body’s trying to fight off and in that exuberance of trying to keep. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:07.9)Thank you. Ann Shippy MD (21:17.026)from being taken over, it’s gotten a little confused or there’s an environmental exposure like heavy metals, pesticides, toxic mold that the body’s like, wait, this is too much to deal with. I up regulate the immune system and then again get confused and attack itself with the thyroid or ANA or antiposyloquid are the most common ones. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:18.664)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:29.384)I Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:38.374)Hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:43.45)It’s amazing. The first thing you said was the mold, which means you must see it quite a bit in your work. Is there any product or any way you recommend for us to detox the black mold as well as Ann Shippy MD (21:54.464)Yes, I do. so this, so my friend

Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Summary: In this conversation, Dr. Nathan S Bryan discusses the critical role of nitric oxide in preventing chronic diseases and promoting longevity. He emphasizes the importance of proactive dietary and lifestyle strategies to maintain health before symptoms arise. Dr. Bryan explains how nitric oxide influences cellular functions, including the activation of telomerase, which helps maintain telomere length, and promotes mitochondrial biogenesis, leading to increased energy production. He expresses why nitric oxide is essential for activating pathways that contribute to a long and healthy life. About Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Dr Nathan S. Bryan is an author and pioneering scientist transforming the way we think about health, longevity, and human performance. His groundbreaking nitric oxide research has challenged health myths, fueled a billion-dollar market, and empowered millions to reclaim their health and optimize performance. He was the first to describe nitrite and nitrate as indispensable nutrients required for optimal cardiovascular health. He was the first to demonstrate and discover an endocrine function of nitric oxide via the formation of S-nitrosoglutathione and inorganic nitrite. This technology is now validated in six published clinical trials. Dr. Bryan earned his undergraduate Bachelor of Science degree in Biochemistry from the University of Texas at Austin and his doctoral degree from Louisiana State University School of Medicine in Shreveport where he was the recipient of the Dean’s Award for Excellence in Research. He pursued his post-doctoral training as a Kirschstein Fellow at Boston University School of Medicine in the Whitaker Cardiovascular Institute. After a two year post-doctoral fellowship, in 2006 Dr. Bryan was recruited to join faculty at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston by Ferid Murad, M.D., Ph.D., 1998 Nobel Laureate in Medicine or Physiology. Guest Resources: Book: The Secret of Nitric Oxide: Bringing the Science To Life Website: drnathansbryan.com Social: @drnathansbryan   Episode Sponsors: ANIMA MUNDI OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS, benefit driven Herbal Teas infused with harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase!   SBO PROBIOTICS OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. Episode Chapters 00:00 The Role of Nitric Oxide in Health and Longevity 00:20 Nitric Oxide and Cellular Function 00:38 Activating Longevity Pathways   SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo   Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:00.77) Dr. Nathan, thank you so much for joining us here today.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (00:04.266) Kim, so great to be with you. Thanks for having me.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:06.51) I think I hear a little bit of a Texas twang, am I right?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (00:11.562) Probably a little. I grew up in Texas, spent a lot of time abroad. I trained it or went to school in Louisiana and then trained up in Boston before I came back to Texas.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:21.154) Wow, you sort of did a full circle back to your roots. Well, I really enjoyed reading your book, Doctor, The Secret of Nitric Oxide, Bringing the Science to Life. It was really interesting. And I also love how you wove so much about your personal story in and your education and your influences, because I think that brings the subject matter to life even more. And I have so many questions I wrote down.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (00:23.36) No place to go.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:50.54) Before we get into that, have to say Dr. Nathan, right before I came on, and we both modified the time a little bit, I actually took my dad to get a calcium scan. And it was something I had heard about on another podcast interview actually. And I thought, well, maybe it’s a good thing to do. And I can’t tell you how emotional it made me. I was very surprised to see the heart. He’s in his seventies.   So the doctor was going over with us and he’s like, look, he’s in a really good level, but just to see that there was any sort of clogging is scary. know, to think about, like it starts to feel really real when you’re actually looking at the heart and you’re looking at family members’ hearts and how important cardiovascular health is and this whole subject.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (01:24.853) Yeah.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (01:38.644) Well, it’s the number one killer of men and women worldwide. mean, so it’s a very serious subject. you know, think coronary calcium’s are good, but really that’s, you know, it’s good to have data, but we don’t worry about calcified plaque because that stable hard plaque, what you worry about is the soft, vulnerable plaque. That’s the point. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it’s important to put that in context. It’s good data. It’s good to know, but hard   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:50.21) Yes.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:57.43) Yes, and he also got an angiogram. He did that part too.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (02:08.096) A calcified plaque doesn’t kill anybody. It’s the soft plaque that ruptures that causes an MI.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:12.844) Yes, exactly. So at first, I booked him for that, the scan, and then I learned about the soft plaque angiogram and realized how much it seems like the technology has advanced from prior generations and how we can do these tests. So anyways, it was just even more interesting to me to read about nitric oxide being as it’s so related. I want to read this quote that’s in your book.   that was, first of all, a lot of people have heard of nitric oxide because as you talk about, it’s become a popular compound we hear in the wellness world. Some people are using it for working out. You’re talking about it in a much, much deeper way. And this quote, the discovery of nitric oxide and its function is one of the most important in the history of cardiovascular medicine.   and how many people might not even realize how nitric oxide led to the Nobel Prize, and I believe it was in 1998.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (03:16.416) 1998, yeah. And that quote was by Dr. Fuster, who was the president of American Heart Association at the time the Nobel Prize was awarded to. You that quote is, what, 1998? So what is that, 27-year-old quote? And it still rings true today.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:31.48) Can you share with us how the Nobel Peace Prize being awarded to Nitrogox, how the new discoveries and new research sort of changed the trajectory of your career and your focus?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (03:42.944) Yeah, well, was the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine in 1998 that was awarded to Bob Furchcott, Lou Ignarro, and Fred Murad. But collectively, they came together and really it was three independent studies. So in 1977, Dr. Murad discovered that drugs like nitroglycerin release nitric oxide, dilate blood vessels, and that’s how they work. Those drugs had been used for more than 100 years prior to they understood how they worked.   but they dilate the blood vessels, they relieve the ischemic pain known as angel in patients with obstructive coronary disease. And so, I mean, that was an important discovery in pharmacology on understanding how certain drugs work. But really, I think the seminal discovery was by Bob Furchcott in 1980, where he discovered that our endothelial cells, the cells that line all blood vessels throughout the body, produced a molecule that caused these blood vessels to dilate or to relax. And he didn’t know what this molecule was.   So he called it endothelium derived relaxing factor. Obviously by naming this molecule, this unknown molecule, knew how or he knew where it was produced and what it did. It was a relaxing factor produced in our endothelial cells. And then, you the race was on what is this EDRF molecule? Because if you could identify that it would be revolutionary in basket biology. And it was Lou Ignaro who went on to later discover that EDRF is actually nitric oxide.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:41.614) Mm.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (05:07.358) So the story came together that whether if you give a nitric oxide releasing drug or you stimulate endogenous nitric oxide production, it dilates blood vessels, it improves oxygen and nutrient delivery, and it controls everything we know about the cardiovascular system. I think that’s why Val Fuster had made that quote because it was and is and will remain to be the greatest discovery in the history of cardiovascular medicine.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:32.866) Well, besides pharmaceutical or medications, doctor, you talk about in the book about eating green vegetables and how vegetables have nitric oxide and it’s related. This is really interesting oral bacteria. I keep hearing how bad mouthwash is for you, but just to keep, you know, the biology of your mouth intact, but also vegetables. can we, and I love how you talk about a plant-based diet in the book as well and all the research. And I want to show you, I’m drinking my glowing green smoothie right now.   I have a, my family has a tremendous amount of greens every day that made me really happy. My kids drink it, my dad drinks it, my husband drinks it. So is it enough to eat a vegetable, a pro-vegetable diet, given that of course levels may decrease over time, but is that the foundation of nitric oxide levels in the body?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (06:02.666) There you go.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (06:23.398) No, not really. mean, what we’re finding is that… So nitric oxide is a gas, right? Your body has to make it. So nitric oxide is not found in vegetables. It’s not found in beets. It’s not found in capsules or pills. And I think that’s the misconception because the general public doesn’t understand that nitric oxide, when it’s produced in the body, it’s a gas. And once it’s produced, it’s gone in less than a second. So really…   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:34.574) Mmm.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:44.054) Okay.   Yeah, I read that. It’s crazy!   Dr Nathan S Bryan (06:48.896) My challenge was, and really how I got involved in the field 25, 26 years ago, was trying to figure out once nitric oxide is produced and it’s gone in less than a second, where does it go, what does it become, and how does it signal? Because we knew that the physiological effects of nitric oxide lasted longer than one millisecond or two milliseconds. So then we had to create this fingerprint of N-O-Biology that once it’s produced, where does it go, what does it become, and how does it signal?   So once we understood that and then we started trying to figure out, how does the human body make nitric oxide? So as we discussed, it’s produced in the lining of the blood vessels and that production pathway gets, I guess, more dysfunctional with A. So we lose about 10 to 12 % of our nitric oxide production through that enzyme per decade. But you mentioned diet. Diet is an important contributor factor in the prevention, the treatment, and the curing of all disease.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:37.71) Mm.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (07:47.048) Diet and lifestyle are the number one things for this. So we discovered probably 25, 30 years ago, even dating back before that, it was recognized that there are bacteria that live on the crypts of the tongue in the oral cavity that were somehow responsible for nitric oxide being produced, nitric oxide gas being produced in the lumen of the stomach. So then you start to figure out, how do we get from bacteria in the mouth to producing nitric oxide gas?   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:09.506) Wow.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (08:15.87) And what it was later discovered was inorganic nitrate that’s found in green leafy vegetables, really anything grown in the soil, right? Because the soil has contained nitrogen. It’s either in the form of ammonia or nitrate. And then those plants assimilate the nitrate. Then when we consume those plants, that nitrate is taken up in our gut. It’s concentrated in our salivary glands. And now each time we salivate, we’re secreting nitrate.   these nitrate reducing bacteria that live on the crypts of the tongue activate or metabolize that nitrate into nitrite. And then we swallow our own saliva and that’s the source of the nitric oxide gas. But there’s many steps as you start to understand that are required. Number one, you must get enough nitrate in your diet. Number two, you must have the right oral bacteria because humans do not have the capacity to metabolize nitrate. We do not express the nitrate reductase enzyme.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:55.885) Wow.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (09:12.478) And then number three, you must have stomach acid production. When we started figuring out, the standard American diet, you’re only getting about 150 milligrams of nitrate per day, and you need at least 300 to 400 milligrams. Number two, and the major problem is two out of three Americans use mouthwash. Almost everybody has fluoride in their toothpaste. 73 %   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:15.81) Right.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:33.326) The fluoride will kill out the healthy microbiota.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (09:37.088) Now that’s right, fluoride is in toothpaste and mouthwash and drinking water because it kills bacteria. So it’s killing the good bacteria, it’s killing the bad bacteria, it’s a neurotoxin, it’s just on your thyroid function. And then the other… No, it’s awful. And then the other problem are antacids. know, 200 million prescriptions written for antacids every year and two out of three Americans report using an over-the-counter antacid.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:43.767) Yes.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:47.596) I’m so glad I won’t use that.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (10:03.988) So everything that we do, our diet, oral hygienic practices, pharmacotherapy, seems to disrupt and shut down nitric oxide production. And to me, that explains why people are so sick.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:13.399) Okay.   Can I ask you a question about oral health besides the fluoride doctor, if people have a lot of gum issues or cavities or just eating a really acidic diet in general, there’s a lot that can also throw that part of the equation off, I imagine.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (10:33.124) For sure. What we’re understanding now that the microbiome has been mapped on the humans, all the bacteria that live in and on the human body, there’s 10 times more bacteria than there are human cells. The problem is what we call dysbiosis. When the terrain or the ecology of that environment changes to where it doesn’t allow for the good guys to repopulate and it allows for the opportunistic pathogenic bacteria to show up and wreak havoc.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:44.182) What?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (11:01.598) So what we’re finding now is you can’t destroy the microbiome. We have to support it and we have to change the ecology. We have to change the environment to where the pathogens can’t grow. The good guys act as the cops. They keep the bad guys at bay. And that should really be the target. But you made a couple of interesting comments or spot on comments. A diet, an acidic diet, a high sugar diet. When we eat those types of food, it drops the pH of the saliva and it makes it more acidic.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:24.899) Yeah.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (11:30.814) And now an acidic saliva allows for the population of these caries causing bacteria, the gingival bacteria that cause gingivitis, periodontal disease. And so the solution, once upon a time, was just to kill the bacteria. Throw an atomic bomb in your mouth with fluoride wrenches, with alcohol wrenches, with chlorhexidine, and just kill all the bacteria. But now we know that’s causing more harm than it is providing benefit. So the strategy now is to change your diet.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:54.764) Right. Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (11:59.434) change your oral hygienic practices, create an environment that’s conducive to good diverse oral microbiome. Not only do you have better oral hygiene, but you maintain optimal nitric oxide production, you get better blood pressure management, and your body’s more healthy.   So back to the nitric oxide, we’ve been talking about the benefits for cardiovascular wellness. And you also talk about in your book, there’s a section about potentially helping to reduce systemic inflammation, telomeres, mitochondrial function. Can you talk about benefits in those areas as well?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (15:35.112) Yes, so the drivers, if you look at any, we’ll handle the of the drivers of chronic disease, then we’ll look at the hallmarks of longevity because I think they’re all related, but they’re typically two different kind of subject matters. But if you look at chronic disease, whether it’s heart disease, Alzheimer’s, diabetes, autoimmune disease, there’s always four things that are present in all of those disease. There’s always low blood flow to the affected organ. There’s always inflammation, oxidative stress and immune dysfunction.   And it’s the loss of nitric oxide that drives all four of those. Because if you can’t make nitric oxide, you don’t dilate the blood vessels until you get low blood flow, we it ischemia hypoxia. You get runaway inflammation. Your mitochondria become uncoupled. You generate a lot of superoxide and oxidative stress. And then our immune cells start attacking our body. We can develop autoimmune or we call immune dysfunction. And interestingly, if you can just restore the production of nitric oxide, it dilates the blood vessels.   It suppresses the inflammation. In fact, I have several patents on the methods of reducing inflammation by using nitric oxide. And it’s getting to the source of the oxidative stress. It’s recoupling the electron transport chain of the mitochondria. It’s shutting down superoxide production from NADPH oxidase and then even the enzyme that makes nitric oxide. We can suppress that enzyme from making superoxide. And then it corrects the immune dysfunction that we see.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:36.855) Wow.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:58.136) Wow.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (16:58.762) So nitric oxide is the foundation for preventing the onset and progression of chronic disease. But that’s medicine, right? And medicine is a reactive practice. What we hope to do is change the conversation of being proactive and start to implement dietary lifestyle strategies before you get sick and before you develop symptoms. But when we talk about longevity, we always look at the length of our telomeres, we always looked at the function of our mitochondria.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:19.873) Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (17:25.664) and then we look at how well our stem cells can mobilize and differentiate. And I talk about in the book, and this is published science that goes back 20 years now, nitric oxide activates an enzyme called telomerase, prevents telomeres from shortening. It activates mitochondrial biogenesis. So if you have nitric oxide, you have more mitochondria per cell generating more energy with less oxygen. And then it’s the signal that tells our own stem cells to mobilize and differentiate.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:29.997) Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (17:52.042) So if you want to a long, healthy life, you have to have nitric oxide to activate these longevity pathways.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:59.574) So one of the things that, and that’s all amazing, and I think there was some confusion you mentioned in the book, and I remember reading about this as well, where people thought, well, maybe I’ll take L-arginine as a supplement. Can you talk about, can you clarify that for us?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (18:11.146) day.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (18:15.648) Yeah, so this goes back to really the year the Nobel Prize was awarded because the pathway that was discovered, this enzyme, nitric oxide synthase, takes L-arginine and converts it to nitric oxide gas. And then we get little citrulline as a byproduct. But because L-arginine is a semi-essential amino acid, meaning that we get it from the breakdown of protein, whether you’re eating plant protein or animal protein, L-arginine is found in most proteins. So as long as we have stomach acid production, we’re constantly getting L-arginine through our diet.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:27.906) Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (18:45.792) But every cell in the human body makes arginine through the urea cycle. So we’re never deficient in L-arginine. There’s only one condition, and I’ll talk about it in the book, but it’s a rare inborn ear metabolism where these kids can’t generate L-arginine endogously. But the majority of us, all other humans on Earth, have excess arginine, have more than what’s needed to bind the enzyme to make nitric oxide.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:57.997) Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (19:13.856) So to me as a biochemist, it never made sense to supplement with L-Arginine. And in 2006 and 2007, two studies came out which showed that it should be contraindicated and really shouldn’t be given because in a clinical trial in patients who had just suffered a heart attack, they gave one group L-Arginine and one group of placebo. The group that got the L-Arginine had higher mortality, higher death.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:18.158) Right.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (19:40.992) And so the conclusion of 2006 study was you should not give L-Arginine to patients who have suffered heart attack. Why? Because it will kill them. It will kill them more so than giving a placebo. And then the next year in patients with peripheral arterial disease, they did the same study giving L-Arginine chronically and the patients get worse. Their disease gets worse. So…   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:41.366) What?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (20:06.62) Look again, arginine should never be used as a primer for nitric oxide production. Because number one, we’re never deficient in it. Number two, if you have endothelial dysfunction and uncoupled NOS, you make the patients worse. They get worse. And that’s published clinical data, randomized placebo control data. It’s indisputable.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:25.902) Wow, so much conflicting information that we hear. It could be potentially.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (20:32.064) Well, that’s the problem. I mean, that’s really the problem because you’ve got these companies out there as we increase the awareness and the importance of nitric oxide, more companies are entering this space trying to sell nitric oxide products. And if they don’t understand the science, they can actually do harm and first do no harm. then companies are putting citrulline in products and calling it nitric oxide. Citrulline is a byproduct of nitric oxide production.   And so it can be very dangerous and all this misinformation and really ignorance in some cases and in other cases it’s deception and fraud because these companies know better but yet they’re still promoting this.   Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:13.538) So as a baseline doctor, want to make sure our oral health is good. We want to make sure we’re taking in these vegetables. We have stomach acid. How do we know if we’re deficient or not in nitric oxide? Are there any symptoms? Are there any tests?   Dr Nathan S Bryan (21:19.667) Absolutely.   Dr Nathan S Bryan (21:32.426) Well, unfortunately, there’s not any clinical test in terms of drawing blood and getting a number and then sayin

This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr, Jenneffer Pulapaka Summary: In this episode, Kimberly and Dr. Jenneffer Pulapaka discuss the importance of heart health and the role of a plant-based diet in achieving it. She shares her journey into lifestyle medicine, emphasizing the need for a holistic approach to health that includes diet, exercise, and sleep. The discussion covers common misconceptions about protein intake, the impact of inflammation on health, and the benefits of cooking with whole foods. Dr. Pulapaka also highlights the affordability of healthy eating and the significance of understanding the nutritional value of everyday foods.   About Dr, Jenneffer Pulapaka JENNEFFER PULAPAKA, DPM, is a Board-Certified Podiatric Physician Diplomate from the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. A trained podiatric surgeon who specializes in diabetic limb salvage, she is the founder of DeLand Foot and Leg Center. She focuses on Peripheral Vascular Disease, holds a Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate, and is a Culinary Health Education Fundamentals (CHEF) Coach. A Certified Sommelier, she also has 15+ years of experience in menu planning and event design in the restaurant industry and has been a featured sommelier at the James Beard Foundation House. Along with her professional chef husband Hari Pulapaka, she founded Cress Restaurant and they both live in DeLand, FL. They are the co-authors of The Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook.   Guest Resources: Website: www.delandpodiatry.com Book: The Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook   Episode Sponsors: FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY   GLOWING GREENS POWDER OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Heart Health and Plant-Based Diets02:56 The Confusion Around Dietary Trends05:58 Understanding Protein and Kidney Health09:10 The Role of Inflammation in Heart Disease11:55 Personal Journey to Plant-Based Living14:47 Cooking with Whole Foods and Spices17:51 The Importance of Fiber and Gut Health20:58 Exploring Nutritional Benefits of Everyday Foods23:51 The Impact of Sleep on Health26:59 Affordable Healthy Eating29:48 Final Thoughts on Heart Health and Lifestyle SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877 How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo   Powered and Distributed by: PodcastOne Transcript: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.494)Hi Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on our show today. Jenneffer Pulapaka (00:06.162)Thank you for having me, Kimberly. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:09.282)You know, when your book came across my desk and once again, everyone’s called the Heart Healthy Plant-Based Cookbook, it really caught my eye because I’ve been so interested, especially in the heart lately, the heart, the physical heart, you know, from a health perspective, from a dietary perspective, also from an energetic perspective, a spiritual perspective, how the heart is mentioned in all these different traditions around the world. But I wondered… And you tell a little bit about this in the beginning of your book, but if you could share with us why your focus has really honed in on heart health in particular. Jenneffer Pulapaka (00:46.888)Well, for me, so I am the pioneer of podiatric lifestyle medicine. And a majority of the patients that I see have lower extremity vascular disease with cardiac complications. So that’s the over, the broad overreaching patient population that I treat. And when dealing with patients, I was a typical physician that would treat patients with conventional medicine, was, you want surgery or do you want a pill? And lifestyle medicine allowed me to handle patients more broader with treatments, such as using diet, using sleep, reducing stress, exercise. reducing substance abuse, things like that, that I started to be able to include pillars in their healthcare and see a better outcome in patients. So for me, that’s why it was important. Just because I think I was getting burned out with just, it was the same thing all the time, pills or surgery, pills or surgery, referral, cardiovascular, interventional, cardiologists, what are we doing? And we were not getting off the wheel. You’re just kind of stuck in that cycle. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:00.536)Great. Jenneffer Pulapaka (02:10.875)and you weren’t regaining ground, you weren’t regaining your health, nothing positive was coming out of it except for trying to prevent a catastrophic event. So that’s why a heart healthy cookbook is really key to a majority of my patients. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:21.974)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:31.84)Right. And I want to get into that in a moment. There’s such great information here, but one of the things you said is that we’re on the wheel. Many people are on the wheel. And one of the reasons I think people are on the wheel is because they’re confused. And there’s so much information out there, Jennifer, as you know. And it feels like to me, you know, there is decades of And sort of this general idea that we should limit red meat in particular and these foods that have high cholesterol, foods that feel clogging and common sense as these are really dense foods. But now we’re in a time in culture where there’s, it’s sort of swung, feels like back when I started writing books 11 years ago, I was always talking about this protein question that would come up being plant-based myself. How do you end up protein? And now there’s this such an over emphasis on protein. And what I see, Jennifer, is confusion. People are eating tons of red meat and they’re like, well, I saw such and such and they say that can eat as much red meat as I want or I should sit down and have six eggs. Can you talk to us a little bit about this confusion about cholesterol, foods that are elevating blood pressure, all the research for many decades that don’t correlate necessarily with these health trends or I don’t say health trends. Jenneffer Pulapaka (03:52.72)I mean, that’s great. That is what they are, okay? Bell bottoms, they’re not in fashion right now. They have been in fashion. They went out of fashion. They came back in briefly and they’re out. That’s kind of what we cycle when we deal with food trends. Different diets will keep on coming up historically. But unfortunately, there’s not enough peer-reviewed literature to be behind them. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:53.954)dietary trends. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:06.082)Yes. Jenneffer Pulapaka (04:22.331)We don’t have a big enough population to evaluate certain diets that are out there and nor is there research behind it. So those for me are always risky when it comes to patients. So we’d like to stay when I’m looking at or evaluating diets with patients. I always tell my patients when they were talking about plant-based, they’re like, well, can I add chicken? I’m like, well, you’ve been adding chicken in it and we’re here right now. I’m the thing that’s gotta cause a bump. Why don’t we learn how to not add chicken and not use butter and use a substitute to make it a more healthy option for you? Because what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working. That’s kind of where we are. I only use peer-reviewed literature for the most part. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:05.11)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (05:16.677)And it’s for me, it’s very hard because right now I do see a trend of patients who come in, they think they’re on a ketogenic diet. They’re not on a ketogenic diet. They’re never in ketoacidosis. They’re never reducing their amount of carbs to get to that state. And most of my patients are complicated patients, meaning that they have diabetes, vascular disease. Chances are they have chronic kidney disease. When we’re dealing with a lot of comorbidities with patients, we have to be very cognizant when they’re taking high protein diets. One of my biggest concerns is my kidney patients. High protein diets does not bode well for kidney function long term. And Kidego, which Kidney Disease International, when they put out guidelines, the last several years, the primary treatment for Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:58.625)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (06:15.719)chronic kidney disease in patients was diet and lifestyle. So it was nice that we saw a really good bump or a really good change in how we’re addressing patients with chronic disease. So now that we had a patient with chronic disease, maybe they don’t even know they’re stage three chronic kidney disease. And now they’re just loading up on all these proteins, which kidneys have to strip off nitrogen and it really taxes the kidneys. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:39.467)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (06:46.853)And unfortunately, it usually puts them in a downward spiral towards stage four. And at stage three, we have some really good studies that look at, can we get an improvement in kidney function if we decrease the amount of unused proteins? For the most part, my patients are not active. I am usually negotiating, can I get three days a week? Just three days a week, can you do 30 minutes three days a week? And the standard of care is exercise is five days a week, 30 minutes, moderate intensity. So when my patients tell me I need the protein, I’m like, no, not to walk the Pomeranian, a half a block, that’s not really exercise. I’m glad we’re doing range of motion and I’m glad you’re not doing sedentary, but you’re not really in an exercise state to be getting a lot of benefit. I don’t need to worry about protein issues with you. Now, when I deal with wound care patients, I deal with them. Or if I deal with dialysis patients, when I have a nutritionist, registered dietician that’s on board, then we’re looking at protein loss, but we’re not talking about a majority of patients that are on that. We’re talking about they got a, they went on Pinterest and they got some keto balls, which are hugely high in fat and protein. And nothing about that is gonna help with inflammation, their heart, their blood flow, or their weight. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:58.806)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (08:13.201)Right? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:14.752)Yeah. Well, you what you say makes sense and it makes sense to me. And then there’s Dan Buettner, who’s been on our podcast several times. He’s coming back on in December, who’s saying, Hey, look at these human populations, which are eating really fiber rich diets. They’re not hyper fixating on protein. And yet their longevity numbers are the best in the world. Then you have Dr. Michael, Dr. Michael Greger, who also came on with all his thousands of studies. He’s referencing saying, Hey, Look at the research. So why do you think Dr. Jennifer, from your perspective as a physician, you know, it’s like people are going on Pinterest, but I’m also seeing some doctors being like, you know, double the amount of grams that you’re hearing, you know, the recommended doses, one gram per body weight. Where is this coming from? How can, in our culture, we can have such differing views of the research. Jenneffer Pulapaka (08:45.532)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:12.308)And to me, common sense, if you want to open up your blood flow, you don’t want to eat clogging foods and really fatty, dense animal foods all day. But how is this even happening in your opinion? Because it’s mind boggling to me. Jenneffer Pulapaka (09:25.489)Well, we have different specialists that are out there and everyone has a different way of treating patients. For example, okay, for a good example, I have a lot of patients who will come in for lower extremity arthritis and tendonitis and everyone will keep missing kind of the, I don’t wanna say the elephant in the room, but the fact that a lot of my patients have obesity class two, class three, and no one’s even discussed about an oral medication for them at that point in time. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:00.962)Wait. Jenneffer Pulapaka (10:04.165)Some physicians only want to treat with lifestyle medicine or diet or conservative options. So maybe that’s where these practitioners are trying to maybe cause a bump, but I still prefer to stay with evidence-based. I still want lifestyle medicine on my patients. I still talk about diet, but I’m also an advocate for GLP-1, GIPs, phenamine and topramate. I’m an advocate for that. And I’m also very realistic with them that usually when you get on a semi-glutide, you will have to stay on that for life. And then they get upset. And then I just remind them you’re not upset that you’re on lisinopril for life. So now can you look at the benefits of being on a medication long-term, how we’re going to reduce our comorbidities? Maybe you’re going to Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:44.887)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (11:03.105)reduce your diabetes, you’re going to reduce your arthritis and your tendonitis and your like my diabetic patients who have a collapse of the midfoot and I have to deal with all the bone deformity and the ulcerations. So we have a lot of comorbidities that are around obesity as a diagnosis and we haven’t allowed the patients yet flexibility to look at it as a disease and to be treated as such with medication or with diet. So I just don’t only do that. I’m there with conventional medicine, but that may explain why some doctors, like one of my patients today, she was in obesity class three and her doctor was telling her about fiber. Great, wonderful. I am glad he had that discussion, but she’s looking at one total knee on one side and now we have another total knee that’s possibly starting on the other leg. and I had all the tendonitis and tendinopathies in my ankle and in the foot. And he’s still trying to tell her to lose weight and she could lose about a good 75 pounds and then she’ll feel comfortable and then we may see start to see improvement. But he that was the way he wanted to approach it. So that may be the way some physicians want to approach it. It’s not I like better peer reviewed research and A lot of the high fat, high protein diets do not have large scale populations to be looking at. So we don’t hear the nuances. And you know, and I love the Blue Zones. We just had a dinner the other evening that my husband hosted and it was about the Blue Zones. And it was, you know, really… they just the way they eat is healthy. It’s not a planned thing. They don’t make a concerted effort to be like, I’m going to get my fiber in. I’m going to get those things. They actually just eat a more healthy way than we do. And they’ll do conservative, like they’ll have an occasional glass of wine or they’ll eat, you know, fish twice a week or meat every so often. But it’s a more realistic diet. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:07.009)Yeah, it’s Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:19.746)Well, it’s simple, I think, and it’s accessible when you’re cooking one-pot meals and you’re not hyper fixating on numbers. It starts to get really confusing when you start to get heady, I think, versus intuitive and more in your heart, what your body’s drawn to. There’s this section, Jennifer, in your book about inflammation. That’s also one of the things we know is a precursor to heart disease, to many different illnesses in the body. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:29.084)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:40.807)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:47.53)And when you are eating more fiber, it’s feeding those short chain fatty acids, which is helping to reduce inflammation. I, one of my, I’m concerned when people are just focusing on overloading protein, I’ve noticed in people, it’s like protein no matter what. So more meat, more protein bars, more protein shakes. They naturally get less of these colorful fiber-filled anti-inflammatory foods. And so it starts to create this imbalance. Jenneffer Pulapaka (13:51.74)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:17.378)when you’re focusing, your compass is set towards something very different. Jenneffer Pulapaka (14:22.285)find that most patients when they’re focusing on proteins aren’t actually really talking about a whole food. They like to do bars or smoothies or supplements. They’re not actually thinking about food or whole food, whether it’s grains or beans, lentils, seeds, nuts. They’re not really there. They will with their protein. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:29.461)Right. Jenneffer Pulapaka (14:52.045)as in their meats, animal proteins, they will fixate on that. And some of that can be due to the fact that we live in a society that praises wealth and a sign of prosperity has been for a long time that if you eat meats, it’s a status symbol versus I’m going to have a bowl of grains and lentils. there are sometimes we have… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:13.73)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (15:17.767)food can be personal and there are barriers or boundaries that people have to get around when it comes to eating a more healthy way. Because sometimes those family recipes are not healthy. They haven’t been there and that’s why you have a family history of heart attacks, gout, kidney disease, diabetes. It’s, know, the family cycle keeps on feeding you the wrong information. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:39.053)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:44.076)Well, Dr. Jennifer, when did you become plant-based? And I know a lot of this was informed from research. And now, you your husband is, you know, a partner in ways. You guys host a lot of things together. He’s been honored by the James Beer Foundation as a featured chef, working with all these amazing foods. When did you come into this path exactly? Jenneffer Pulapaka (16:05.741)So I first took my turn at 21. I became vegetarian. I decided if I was going to eat meat, I needed to go to a slaughterhouse and appreciate or accept the way the animal was being brought to my table. So after I had that experience, I became a vegetarian. I was not comfortable with Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:18.413)Hmm? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:29.208)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (16:31.463)I was not comfortable and I could not do it and I wouldn’t do it. So I decided at that point in time to become a vegetarian. And that was a pretty rapid change for me. I gave up red meat first. gave up chicken was the last thing. And then I think I finally had like a steak as one last hurrah. And I couldn’t get through eating the steak that I wanted to because I knew it was gonna be great. I couldn’t do it knowing that I went to, it was a… It was a cattle slaughterhouse. I just was like, I can’t. So I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 21. I’m 55. So it’s been a few years. Vegan, I say as much as possible. In my house, I’m vegan. When I go out in public, it is always a battle with how much egg is going to be utilized, dairy. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:24.6)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (17:29.453)in some instances. I’m always able to get vegan vegetarian options, but vegan is a little bit difficult. And if I’m going to get it out in public, it’s usually pretty pretty bad, I say. I usually get pasta primavera. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:36.471)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:44.716)Well, that’s why Dr. Jennifer, I don’t need out very much because I feel like at home there’s, and you can eat these beautiful recipes in your cookbook. It does make it much easier when the more home meals you do eat. Jenneffer Pulapaka (17:56.008)Yeah, you get pasta primavera, plate of sides, you’ll get a salad, or now I can get like a black bean burger. That’s like the, that’s the standard that I get when I eat out. So for me, it’s hard because yes, I do have my husband who is like, you know, a super creative chef when it comes to that. And he was vegetarian until he was 21. After he came to the United States, he was here a few years and then He tried meat. in his professional career as being a chef, he’s been very broad. He cooks a lot of seafood. He’s notoriously known for producing fantastic fish dishes. But I think it was his upbringing that taught him about spice and seasoning and flavor that makes him so good about making plant-based cooking. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:55.786)Right, he grew up in India. Jenneffer Pulapaka (18:55.973)because it was second nature to him, correct. He grew up in India and he came here when he was young. And a lot of us, like I said, we do not have contact with food anymore. And when I do culinary and coaching classes with my patients, we do small group exams. I bring them in foods and we talk about things like that. Like I have an example. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:20.617)Well, and while you’re getting that, I want to mention there’s some call-outs in the book and I want to get into some of the specific information, which is really interesting. But even to educate people, there’s a spice section in the book, you know, and it’s, this is something that everyone in India might know, for example, but here it’s saying, you know, spices are using any part of the plant, but the leaves, if you’re using the leaves, you’re, then it’s considered an herb. And if you’re not using the leaves, it’s a spice. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:30.961)Yeah. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:46.737)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:49.006)So I think this appreciation and sort of deeper understanding when we’re looking at any sort of plant and the parts that we’re using starts to create a deeper connection when you’re working with herbs, when you’re working with spices, when you’re cooking. It can be really simple, but it starts to get more, it feels really connected. Jenneffer Pulapaka (19:52.807)Thank Jenneffer Pulapaka (20:08.871)He does a good job. think common spice substitutions like that. was originally we did this in one of the first books that we had. You know what? That’s great. I don’t know how many it’s on page 27. I don’t know how many times my patients will ask. Well, if I don’t have fennel and they get scared about cooking recipes and like, you know, if you don’t have fennel. you know, use a substitute, you know. And if you don’t have it, just don’t use it. Move on. Find something else. Do you like gilding? You know, move forward with something, you know, but they get nervous about substitutions. And I think as you start to cook more and do more and be more hands on, then you’ll realize, you know, I don’t have lemongrass, but yeah, I just use, I just had lemon zest and I use lemon zest and I felt good enough. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:40.926)Right. You said that you- Isn’t that funny? Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:05.957)And then I wanted a little bit more herbaceousness, so I put some basil in it and that was my lemongrass. Perfect. Great substitute. Did you like the food you ate? Yes. Then it was perfect, right? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:16.142)Yeah, exactly. Again, less rigid, less heady and confused and more in flow, you know, the energetic part of being living a heart led life. And what I really liked too about the recipes, and I made a bunch of notes if you guys are watching this on her YouTube channel, I’m holding them up. There’s really great information worked into the recipes, which I appreciate. So for example, on page 42, where you talk about kale, Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:23.686)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:45.164)And one of the things that you mentioned is nitrate and nitric oxide and how it helps to open up the blood vessels contributes to the, it’s a vasoactive effector. And then it says, eat it, don’t juice it. And I’ve always been more into smoothies and kale salad instead of juice. Yeah. If you could talk a little bit about that. Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:45.799)it. Jenneffer Pulapaka (21:57.896)Yeah, I love that. Jenneffer Pulapaka (22:06.311)So, and I lecture on this one all the time when I’m talking because you have that nitrate, nitrite, nitric oxide pathway. And nitrates start in the mouth. You start to break it down by chewing. You need mastication with the saliva in order for that enzyme to start as it’s breaking down to your end result is nitric oxide. So it starts in the mouth. So therefore that’s why I’m like, you can’t do it. interesting there was a study that recently came out that was looking at toothpaste and mouthwash. So they were they’re looking into the fact that sometimes when we have this 24-hour toothpaste, well sometimes the bacteria or the enzymes that are in your mouth have a purpose and sometimes those things you know can interfere with that. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:35.192)Hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:42.966)yes, I read that in here. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:49.134)you Jenneffer Pulapaka (23:02.915)It wasn’t a robust enough study, not a big enough population, but it’s an interesting point to see how is that going to play out down the line? You know, are they going to be looking more into that? Because we know you talked about inflammation, gut biome. You know, they do poo samples all the time on people who eat vegetarian, vegan, and meat, you know, and they’re looking to see which ones had the healthiest. And out of all of them, when people Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:02.957)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (23:24.483)Right? Jenneffer Pulapaka (23:30.213)have really aggressive disease states that they have to kill off a lot of their bacteria and restart. They’ve had surgeries, really complicated patients, and then they’re inocula

Episode Summary: In the November Solluna Power Hour episode, Kimberly discusses the theme of abundance, clarity, energy, and peace. She emphasizes the importance of harmonizing with our bodies and making conscious food choices to foster a sense of wholeness and expansion in our lives. Episode Sponsors FATTY15 OFFER: Fatty15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long-term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to fatty15.com/KIMBERLY and using code KIMBERLY at checkout. USE LINK: fatty15.com/KIMBERLY   FEEL GOOD PROBIOTICS OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Abundance and Wholeness 00:13 Core Practices for Abundance 00:37 Food and Nourishment for Well-Being SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How to Believe in Your Self Worth with Jamie Kern Lima How to Raise Your Standards In Your Love Life with Matthew Hussey How to Eat to Beat Your Diet with New York Times best selling author Dr. William Li The issues with consuming vegetable and seed oils with Dr. Catherine Shanahan How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo How to Optimize Your Metabolic Health with Dr. Casey Means TRANSCRIPT: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.262)Hi everyone and welcome back to our November Power Hour Show where our theme this month is Core Practices to Feeling More Abundant in Time, Clarity, Energy and Peace. So this is the time of year where you may notice a lot more fullness in your calendar. There’s a lot of events. coming into the holiday season. There’s a lot of joyfulness. and get-togethers and potentially fun times. But if we’re always feeling like we’re hurried, if we’re feeling a lot of anxiousness, we’re feeling sort of burned out, then it’s tough to really enjoy these moments. And so I really wanted the theme this month to be around this idea of wholeness and abundance because this is an amazing time to learn how to tap into it. when times are feeling more full and we can really learn these core practices which is really deep self-care around food, body, emotional well-being and spiritual growth no matter if you’re starting to you know that frazzledness or it’s starting to get really cold where you live and you’re feeling like certain shifts have to be made in your schedule. There is an opportunity to go even deeper into your heart, into your own innate wisdom. And again, in your dietary practices, your body care practices, your emotional wellbeing practices, and your spiritual practices to feel that abundance now. And this is something that I’ve been working on even more deeply in my own life. I’m really excited to share about this topic right now. And so can’t wait to dive in, but before we do, a little reminder to please check out the show notes at mysaluna.com. You can also sign up for our newsletter there to please join our amazing Saluna community. We send out recipes, articles that I think you would love as well as deals on our amazing digestion focused Saluna products, our community gatherings. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:07.918)So there’s a lot happening over there. And one of the best ways to stay in touch is just to join our newsletter. A little call out as well. Thank you from my heart in advance for leaving us a review for the show. It’s such an amazing way to support the show, whether you listen on Apple or Spotify, and to please share the show with anyone you think that would benefit. Be a colleague, loved one, family member. It’s a really amazing way to pass the love and the support. on to others, which is really the intention of our show. Okay, so let’s get into this energy, our intention of the show. We’re talking about abundance in time, clarity, energy, and peace. And these are often topics where we feel like there’s a lack or a dearth of these qualities in our life, unfortunately. So we’re talking about as well stepping into more wholeness, more presence, more coherence, which is really In a sense, idea of harmonizing. Can we harmonize with our bodies more and more in each moment, with our food choices, with what’s in front of us instead of resisting or judging or having expectations about how it’s not or how it should be? Can we really come into more expansion and wholeness in these micro moments? And then it starts to fill up and suddenly we start to embody this energy of abundance. Now I think this word gets passed around a lot. We hear about manifesting, we hear about abundance, but it’s really something that we need to experience for ourselves on a moment to moment basis. And abundance means that there is no real lack. So part of this practice is choosing wholeness, choosing wholeness in our perspective, in the foods, the seasonal foods that come onto our plate. Choosing daily routines and rituals that allow us to nurture ourselves, to feel our hearts, to feel the truth of our true self-being, which is that we’re not these limited broken, you know, humans that we often identify with where there’s we’re not doing enough or we don’t look good enough or whatever it is but really to tap into this deeper place. So this is a really exciting Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:28.792)period, like I said, where there’s shifts happening in the outer world and shifts happening inside of our body. We’re moving towards winter solstice. There’s less light outside, but there’s actually an ability to tap more into the light within. I got to share about Diwali a couple last week, actually, with my son’s one of my son’s kindergarten class. And we talked about this idea of light. We talked about the symbolism of light. lit a candle and I played some music and we all closed our eyes and the kids put their hands on their heart and we could feel that inside. So sometimes even though many of us may prefer the sunny weather, I know I certainly do, there’s a different sort of opportunity that we can embrace, especially this month of November. where it’s less of a transition month and more really starting to get into the fall and winter. Ayurveda calls this season the Vata season. So you notice the wind picking up, there’s more air. You may feel more dry in your skin, in your hair. We need a bit more nourishment, we need a bit more oils. And so this is naturally pulling us towards more grounding practices, which will get into soups, using some more healthy fats. definitely applying more oil to the skin, to the hair. I know I definitely need to put some hair oil on my hair, which definitely gets dry here in California. It’s dry in Hawaii too because I’ve in and out of the ocean all the time. And this is in terms of traditional Chinese medicine this season that’s associated with lungs and large intestines, which has to do with release and letting go. So we want to let go of our ideas of trying to hold on to sunnier weather or maybe a more carefree time a few months ago and really coming into this deep sense of groundedness within ourselves. This is an amazing time to also call on the anchor of our steady hearts, how we can be here and soothe ourselves and show up for ourselves in any sort of situation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:52.482)the wholeness of our hearts will give us a deep sense of clarity. This is where intuitive power comes up. And also that abundance of love, of connection, of energy that we’re talking about. So much of getting stressed out has to do with buying into our own minds, thoughts and narratives and stories and keeping us caught up in these cycles of constantly. thinking and worrying and being anxious. It’s like outside we’re seeing the wind pick up the leaves and tossing them around. And for many of us, that’s what’s happening with our thoughts. Why did this happen? What if this happens? How can I prevent this from happening? How can I make this person like me? It’s control, it’s strategy, it’s tactics. These are words that are used in military training, right? We want to be more heart led than military led or mind led. We want to learn to create more softness and ease into the moment, not with force, not with trying to make our thoughts keep quiet, but just this continual shifting and feeling and experiencing and coming back, which we’ll get into more when we talk about the emotional well-being cornerstone. First though, I want to start with food. And when we talk about food, we talk about abundance, there is a fullness. that can come into our plates and into our bellies when we’re focusing more on fiber. Now I want to address just for a moment how much of the hyper fixation there is right now on protein. And believe me, I see it too. I feel like almost like a deja vu because I was talking about protein a lot when I first started writing books over 11 years ago. And as a plant-based eater, I was constantly asked, a teacher, you could say, an author, constantly being asked to explain where we get protein. And now we’re living in a time and there’s diets out there and there’s certain books and certain philosophies which are really promoting more, more, more. And of course, everybody’s body is different and everybody’s gonna respond to different sorts of food. So it’s up to us to discern and to feel what works best. But I will say, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:13.186)that based on thousands of research papers, based on following human populations, such as what the philosophy of the Blue Zones does, which tracks the eating patterns, the lifestyle patterns of certain groups of people for many generations to learn why their longevity levels are so high and their rates of neurodegenerative and other types of degenerative diseases is so low. And one of the factors is that they are 90 to 100%. plant based and they are getting enough protein they’re getting enough amino acids to build proteins in their body and they’re also getting a lot of fiber which feeds the short chain fatty acids which helps to reduce inflammation in the body it helps to cleanse the blood cleanse the colon cleanse the overall system and it also this fiber rich diet allows us to eat in abundance so that we can I mean if you guys saw what I ate what I eat Well, what I just ate for lunch and what I eat for dinner, there’s a huge, like a relatively large amount of food. Some people might be like, wow, you really eat a lot, but it’s full of fiber and it digests really well, which is the key to this. And what I was saying about the protein emphasis right now, it feels to me, there’s a bit of an energy of lack. My body needs more. If I don’t get more, more, more protein, then I’m not going to be strong enough. I’m not gonna be able to ward off aging, all these things pulling from the outside. And there’s this different energy when we say my body has so much intelligence. My body also knows how to use amino acids from plants. It knows how to recycle proteins. It knows how to detox. I need to give it the proper environment. And yes, of course we need protein, but do we need to overload more, more, more all the time? Definitely not for my body and not for what I’ve seen in working with clients now for a while. Of course, if people are athletes or you’re pregnant, you do need more protein. And I’m not saying that we don’t need protein. But what I’m saying, when we’re talking about abundance and eating to satiation and getting a lot of fiber, you’re also going to get a lot of anti-inflammatory compounds, antioxidants, cleansing vegetables. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:34.574)Foods that will really support your vitality. So it’s like we’re pointing our North Star towards fiber towards abundance towards energy The emphasis in my opinion should not be on protein being number one, but rather whole foods and a lot if not entirely as I have chosen to do but you don’t have to be fully plant-based but a lot of plant foods for the fiber and for the nutrient rich benefits. When your body is really nourished, you will feel more grounded, you will feel more clear. It’s really important to eat at regular meal times as well, especially as we go into November and the rest of the winter, because having regular meal times helps to regulate your body’s digestion. It helps to put you on a nice schedule so that you can feel more grounded. Now this is an Ayurvedic practice known as Dinacharya. This regularity is something that your body will respond to very well. Something that we do in our family. We try to have dinner around the same time. I have my GGS this morning. I drank some on the way to school. Definitely when I get back from the school run. And then what happens is you end up going to the bathroom around the same time. I feel hungry in the middle of the day around the same time. Everything starts to regulate and it feels really good. And there’s an energy that comes from this. And then this also starts to support groundedness, which leads to peace. When our schedule is very erratic and we’re sort of all over the place, it’s like we’re grasping for this and we’re trying to feel good here and there. It doesn’t lend itself to equanimity, right? It doesn’t lend itself to your mind starting to feel more settled for us living a heart led life. So all these practices really make a big difference. Now, some of the… foods that I want to mention include apples, which are in season and they’re really great. They’re full of pectin, they’re fiber, a wonderful ingredient in our glowing green smoothies and sweet potatoes, which was just part of my lunch. I’m feeling a natural call to a lot of root vegetables. Just this feeling of eating deep from the earth and also nuts and pretty much any type of Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:58.516)lentils or beans. I also had dahl for lunch with a lot of broccoli microgreens on top. I do that a lot when I’m having soup. I just load up the top with some raw greens. So you’re getting that raw warm food component as well, which feels really good this time of year. And pumpkin. We just put out a really great pumpkin curry recipe. I highly recommend you can search for it at mysalina.com. We made it the other day right before Halloween. It just felt so good to see all the decorated pumpkins and to be eating pumpkin and to have these grounding foods. Now some of the kale and the hearty greens, which we just talked about recently, or you will hear in an upcoming episode on nitric oxide, how kale is one of the most important compounds for, or foods for getting this molecule, this gas to be functioning correctly in the body. And we have the dharmas kale salad all the time. I’m happy to say my older son in particular eats an enormous bowl. He absolutely loves it. And there’s a hardiness to kale, which feels really good in November. Again, that abundance, that groundedness, that green vegetable energy is really, really great. I want to call out a research study from 2019 in PubMed titled, Review of How the Stress Digestion Mindfulness Triad May Modulate and Improve Gastrointestinal and Digestive Functions. Function, and it found that mindful eating practices support digestive health by helping the autonomic nervous system move into parasympathetic dominance known as rest and digest. So on top of the foods we want to focus on, some of these mindfulness practices can include coming together, well I’ll say what we do in our family, coming together, sitting, pausing, saying grace, and then we eat and we talk about our day, we talk about gratitude, we don’t have screens at the table, we don’t talk about heavy conversations, there’s a lot of lightness, there’s a lot of love and connection that’s brought into meal times. And I really do think Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:12.75)as the study supports that these practices really do help. You don’t want to be reading the news or watching the news while you’re eating. You don’t want to be trying to read an article scrolling on your iPhone. Even if you’re eating by yourself, we want to honor the sacredness of coming to eat. And there’s an abundance in that. will feel, we’re talking about… juggling and multitasking all the time. And I think that’s why a lot of us feel nothing’s really fully done. Everything’s sort of half done or a third done. And that doesn’t feel abundant and that certainly doesn’t feel peaceful. watching how you eat as well. Also a 2017 Cambridge University study published in Nutrition Research Reviews found that slowing down during meals. significantly improves eating behaviors and reduces emotional eating. It also helps to support digestion and regulate your appetite. So one of the things that we want to do is to chew more and again not to over schedule yourself so you only have a few minutes to eat dinner, you’ll have a few minutes to eat lunch then you’re racing to something else. It’s better to schedule less. I’ve definitely found this in my life. It’s better to space out meetings. It’s better to honor your meal times. It’s better to have less after school activities. Honestly, we don’t stack them up. Okay, on Thursdays, there’s a couple for my kids. It’s because I have to juggle their schedules. We have swim class and then we have chess. But the other days, there’s really just one or none. There’s lots of time for free play. I just am a big believer in enjoyment, slowing down, being present where you are, instead of trying to do too much. That is the mindset that leads to, again, this feeling of we’re running ourselves on empty all the time. So more and more we can heartfully, I will say, instead of just thoughtfully, come into our hearts and really choose what foods are going to serve us. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:26.538)as well as what practices really call to us right now. Now, I named a few that really speak to me and my family, but what practices would help to make your meal times more sacred? How can you make sure that you’re chewing well and slowing down? And also, I wanna mention, and it could be, used to light a candle and we used to make it more of a ritual, but it still feels like a ritual without the candle. it and like I said we say grace and yeah it’s just really amazing how these everyday moments can really be magical moments. And I also wanted to mention that we have some really great recipes that I wanted to call out specifically for you. One is the roasted kabocha squash with sauteed greens, one is the fall harvest hot apple cider, and another recipe is the pumpkin smoothie bowl. So we will link to these in the show notes as well, or you can just search for them on our mysalina.com website. Now let’s talk about our body. Now we want to make sure that we are honoring our body through these shifts and to feel the abundance in our body. So often we look at our bodies and we think, you know, this isn’t working as well, or I wish I had more muscle, or why this or… this instead, that is a lack based mindset. And what we want to do is we want to start to bring this idea of wholeness into our body care practices. It’s really wonderful to move our bodies in more gentle ways, stretching, walking. I’m also a big fan of rocking if you know what that is, which is carrying some. a weighted backpack or vest to feel that strength, but you’re still walking outside. To really prioritize consistency over beating yourself up or being overly intense, like sporadic workouts. Wholeness means this deep connection with our bodies. So we want to make sure that there is this Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:47.096)say that this this approach which is more loving and more caring versus coming from hey your body’s not good enough I’m not doing enough so let me you know push it some more. The longevity protocols reviewed 38 studies and found that morning exposure to natural light positively influences sleep quality mood and circadian rhythms. So one of the ways in which we can really feel this Abundance which is all around is to get into some sunlight get outside. I do this in my morning meditations I bring my meditation pillow out into the sunlight and it feels so good and I of course I live in Fairly sunny places. There’s definitely bleak days, but I know I’m lucky to do this Maybe for you it’s more just walking and getting outside for a couple minutes But just anything you can do to really feel the light and feel the light on your body is such a wonderful way to remember that we are full of energy. We’re part of the greater cosmos. I also think for groundedness, and I’ve talked about this for years, it’s a really great time to oil the body. Warm oils, Abhyanga massage, we have information about this on the website, as well as in the Radical Beauty book that I wrote with Deepak Chopra about how to oil the body. and to make sure to oil the hair as well, a little bit of scalp massage can feel really great. And to eat deeper, I know we just talked about food, but I wanted to also mention our Glowing Greens powder, which is full of chlorella and spirulina and amalachee and really nourishing foods for all parts of your body, including your hair. That’s why I was just thinking about it, as well as for your heart health. All these… practices and just remembering to treat the body with reverence I think are really important this time of year. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:47.118)It’s more energizing to walk consistently, like I said, than to just sporadically do something or to constantly be picking on your body. And again, just don’t listen to all the fads out there, which are on social media and the media and all around. There’s some crazy stuff being passed around and you don’t have to do every fad. You don’t have to follow every single new exercise routine. You don’t have to punish yourself. You want to listen especially. For us women on our moon cycles, there’s different times of the month where you may feel more active and where you want to sit back and stretch and have a nice cup of herbal tea. And that is so abundant and so energizing in the long run. Now, this next cornerstone is a really, really big one for our topic this month. And this is emotional well-being. Now, when we talk about abundance, One of the things that qualifies or exemplifies abundance is spaciousness, expansiveness, okay? This feeling where we’re moving out of constriction, out of lack, of not thinking we have enough, out of trying to force control into expansiveness. Now, how does this relate to emotional well-being? What it means is that we want to allow space to feel and process our emotions. And if we’re so jammed up in our schedule that we’re just running from one thing to the next, we’re not able to really have that spaciousness or we’re not able to really experience it, right? We push our emotions down. We do this as a collective. We tend to do this. Many of us didn’t really feel our emotions fully as children. So we learn these coping tools, these habits. But what we want to do is have this spaciousness to feel to be really connected to what’s going on inside of us. Now this is wholeness embodied inside of us where we snap or we project out stress or anger because we’re not really aware that there’s a sense of overwhelm or fear or sadness alive in us. So how do we start to do that? Well, in the Hidden Power of the Five Hearts, the latest book that I wrote, there’s a practice. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (25:12.142)the steady in life practice and it’s about how we have a sense of groundedness first. We want to hold space for ourselves. There’s part of us in our hearts that can be there and that can breathe and then there’s part of us that is going to be aware and alive and to feel the feelings and there’s more step, there’s more description in the book of that practice but I can’t tell you how life-changing this has been for me and what I realize is for the years there has been a level of, just be positive or it’s fine, don’t worry about it and just pushing down. And then it does manifest in things like constipation or stress or anxiety or tightness, achiness in the body. And so this abundance means I have an abundance of room as well. for my emotions and this just lets so much more energy come up over time. There may be quite a bit to process and go through as they come up, it’s okay. But the more we do this, the more energy, the more clarity arises. And the more we can feel really present, and this is about the time abundance. When we’re stuck in the past and past emotional experiences, we can just feel. rushed or there’s these huge emotional responses which don’t really align to what the situation is in front of us. Have you ever noticed that? You’re like, wow, I feel so angry. It really isn’t just about, you know, my husband leaving the towel on the ground. There’s more going on here. There’s more that hasn’t been recognized and validated. So it’s really important to… First of all, one of the things we can do is we can start to connect on a deeper level with inside of us. We can do coherence breathing, right? We can focus on our hearts and take some nice deep slow breaths. And what this does is it starts to lead us deeper inside our bodies and to create more emotional awareness. Instead of getting out of our head, out of our thoughts where we tend to rush, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (27:20.738)And again, we’re up in our heads all the time and that’s where those are the days where you’re like, it went by so fast or wow, where did the school year go? Or I can’t believe it’s, you know, November, like what happened to my fall? Because we’re not really there. So we want to take the time to breathe into the spaciousness in our hearts. And so we’re more present and we’re grounded in our bodies in here. And this is also the beginning of making more space. to feel our emotions like the steady in life practice. We need space as well to do this. So it means that when we start to feel emotions or we feel discomfort, we don’t wanna just feel every single second with scrolling on our phones or calling or texting a friend or maybe blasting music in the car. Maybe there are moments where we could just be and feel. and create that space. And it’s really powerful the more we do this. It doesn’t have to be all the time. But I have found in my work is that emotional well-being is one of the cornerstones that most all of us need to work on quite a bit, including myself. That emotional capacity, that emotional resilience, which starts with recognizing the emotions, the awareness in the first place, and what’s really alive with us, inside of us, and working with that. Another great aspect of emotional well-being, which we could certainly bring into this month’s theme with abundance, is gratitude. So again, when we’re thinking in lack, we’re just feeling all the things that we still need, that are still missing in order for us to be okay, happy, beautiful, smart, you you name it. It’s all this stuff that our mind tells us that we need. But gratitude and appreciation are about pulling back into the now moment of what’s here now. So even as I’m speaking this to you, if you can just, wherever you’re listening to this, driving the car, doing the dishes, you know, picking up your kids’ toys, just pull the energy back into your heart and feel this thankfulness, this opening. And you may naturally feel a few things that you are grateful for. It could be a loved one, a pet, you know, a place. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (29:46.67)anything at all really small things you could be really grateful for you know having a really cozy pillow to sit on or just to get a beautiful connection with your neighbor just feel how that shifts your energy and a 2014 study published in Frontiers in Psychology found that coherence heart coherence which is a state where the heart, brain, and nervous system are in sync, improves emotional regulation, reduces stress, and enhances overall well-being. So when we’re in gratitude, when we’re in appreciation, as I talk about in the book, we are coherent and we can feel more emotionally regulated. Now it doesn’t mean that we want to bypass negative emotions, but it means that we have the capacity to feel them. and to let them go. Heart-based emotions are appreciation, kindness, compassion, care. Imagine what it feels like to be in the heart. And these are all the qualities which are our natural state. When we start to get separated from our hearts, when we’re up in our heads, we start to feel that lack creep in. So more and more practices that reinforce this wholeness. are going to keep you on track for feeling abundance and energy and clarity throughout your life. Right? So this could include doing your heart aligned meditation in the mornings or pausing in the evenings to journal. You can also include gratitude journaling, what you’re grateful for. A 2015 study published in Frontiers, also in Frontiers in Psychology, found that neural correlates of gratitude the more we… experience experience a big word here experience gratitude it is correlated with increased activity in brain regions linked to moral cognition reward and social perspective taking meaning in layman’s terms that there is an activation in the brain you know you can feel gratitude in your heart and it changes your brain it activates it changes your thoughts because it’s changing your perspective right Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (32:06.774)So we want to have these practices. We want to make support. We want to say no more often. So we have spaciousness. We want to literally look at our schedules and consider what is the most important and what we can say no to. We want to gratitude about, know, journal about what we’re grateful for the other way around. And we want to also maybe take more of these sacred pauses where we check inside our bodies and we say, hey, what’s alive in me right now? Is there any emotions I need to process? A little bit more space, letting things come up instead of constantly scrolling, constantly talking, constantly texting. So that it’s not just when we’re doing our meditation that we feel some space, but even if it’s one or two minutes, we start to work these sacred breaks in between tasks, between emailing, between… you know, working and then going to go to the gym, just any micro moments. You know, for me, it’s, there’s a real pause after I dropped the kids off at school. And then I really need that space for a little bit before I start working. I’d like to have that quiet time in the car when I’m driving back from the school run. And I also need that sacred pause in the middle of the day when I do my walk, which is mostly in silence. It’s really nice to have those moments and it helps to keep us more emotionally regulated. Overwhelm builds when we don’t have enough time to process. So the last cornerstone is spiritual growth. And here I want to talk about specifically this abundance and this expansion, which we can really feel with time. Now time is a really funny thing and people, I believe, experience time very differently. You may hear people always say, Oh, I can’t believe how quickly my kids grew up. I can’t believe how fast the summer went or, know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I never have enough time, time, time, time. I have found for myself as I’ve been working on my spiritual health, my spiritual life, which part of it is meditation, but part of it is just my overall, um, moment to moment. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (34:28.568)perspective where we start to flow more with life and be with what is and here instead of always in future based goals or what it should be always up in our heads with expectations. So the more present I naturally have felt, it’s really amazing how I feel an abundance of time, which, you people ask me, well, how do you do so much? And I can honestly say, you know, I don’t feel so rushed and so full. Now, I used to, and I know what that feels like. And there was a real shift, I think, for me. You know, it was after my first son was born. And that was sort of the height of it, probably, when I was editing a book, right, a few days after he was born. I was trying to do all these things and… A lot of different things happened in my life, personally, and it was around then when I started to go really deeper and deeper. And there’s a groundedness that will come through your being the more you pierce the outer layers of getting so caught up in your mind’s ideas and timelines and thoughts and just your identity being what you put on paper and what you look like. There’s a piercing that happens as you start to really And we all have this ability, right? Deeply, more deeply connect with the true self, with your heart. And so for me, that’s included all the things I talk about with you guys, the doing the heart aligned meditation, doing the steady in life practice, journaling, slowing down when I eat, eating these grounding foods, know, oiling my body, just walking. All of these start to add up until we start to feel the truth. that wholeness and expansiveness is inside of us. And the more we feel it, the more deeply we connect with others, the more deeply we connect with life, the more we enjoy the micro moments and joyfulness isn’t just, I’m looking forward to seeing my brother I see once a year on Thanksgiving. That’s great. But also there’s a joy in just looking out at some clouds going by or there’s a joyfulness in being able to cook dinner. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (36:54.472)And, you know, even just have a little bit of a snuggle time or stretch. I mean, there’s just so much joy that comes the more wholeness we feel inside. And this also takes away time scarcity because time scarcity is partially linked to always chasing the thing that’s going to make us feel okay. You know, I need to do all this stuff, but, know, I don’t even enjoy any of it. I wasn’t there. I didn’t really watch my… Sun’s basketball game because I had to plan what I was going to buy later to eat for dinner. So I wasn’t there. And then during dinner, I kept worrying about da da. We’re never there. We’re not enjoying things. The more we can get out of the head and into the heart, the more we come into, even feeling your feet, exhaling down through your feet into the earth, the ground below you. really in the words of the wise Ram Dass, be here now, there is a very different relationship with time that you will experience. I’ve noticed it in a huge difference in how I write books. I remember from my first book, The Beauty Detox Solution, just feeling like, like this takes so long and this is so challenging and finding all research and doing all these things. And now writing a book is always going to be challenging and I’m someone who will always write my own books. I will not. I mean, I say not, but you know, maybe in some ways AI can help, but I’m someone who really does like to write the words. I don’t have a research assistant. I don’t have a ghostwriter. I like to write. I really do. And I just noticed the more I’ve come into this presence, the times that I do have to write, which are now in the early mornings, there is a spaciousness that comes in because I’m more there, I’m more focused and less distracted. That’s the other thing, I think that when we are living in the material world so deeply, it’s easy to get distracted. And so our energy starts to feel scattered all the time. And so we really want to ground in, do our regular heart aligned meditations, but I encourage you to, yes, please do read the Hidden Power of the Five Hearts book if you haven’t yet already. It’s in soft cover now, audio hard cover. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (39:17.132)to learn more about daily living from a heart-based, heart-led perspective versus a mind-led perspective, because I think that’s a huge part of being in the expansiveness of time means getting out of the head and out of your thoughts. A 2023 study published in PMC entitled, The Relationship of Spirituality and Resilience and Well-being, found that those who reported higher levels of spirituality defined through meaning, connection, and transcendence reported better mental and physical health and higher life satisfaction. So just to wrap up how integrated and interrelated all of our cornerstones really are. So, and also in the show notes, we will have direct links for the free tracks of the Heart Aligned Meditation. You can do the meditation with me. There’s coherence building music. There’s also… me guiding you through the track. So it’s a really beautiful place to get started and I encourage you to check that out as well. So I hope that this show inspired you for this beautiful month of November coming up to live in the fullness of the day with how you eat, how you take care of your body and exercise and connect with your emotions and your spirituality to find more of that abundance within. which will allow you to experience the abundance of life everywhere, including in your energy and time. Yes, in time and clarity. Once again, please go to mysaloonah.com to check out the show notes, to join our newsletter. Please send this episode to anyone that you think would benefit from learning about any of this. It’s so wonderful to pass things on, to share the love. and thank you in advance for leaving us a review for our Feel Good podcast. I will see you back here in a few days for our next interview. Till then, take great care. Reach out to me on socials as well, at underscore Kimberly Snyder, and sending you so much love.  

Episode Summary: In this conversation, Kimberly speaks with Dr. Ingrid Clayton who shares her journey of understanding complex trauma and the Fawn response. After years of therapy and personal work, she reflects on her struggles with self-acceptance and healthy relationships. Through her experiences and education in psychology, she has gained new perspectives that have facilitated her healing process.   Episode Sponsors LMNT: OFFER: To get THE PUREST, MOST DELICIOUS PLANT-POWERED protein blend, infused with real vanilla and harmonizing adaptogens go to Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase! USE LINK: Animamundiherbals.com and use code: KIM20 to get 20% off your purchase!   FEEL GOOD PROBIOTICS OFFER: Go to mysolluna.com and use the CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order. USE LINK: mysolluna.com CODE: PODFAM15 for 15% off your entire order.   Episode Chapters 00:00 Understanding the Fawn Response00:35 Signs of Fawning in Relationships   SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS Glowing Greens Powder™ Feel Good SBO Probiotics Feel Good Detoxy Feel Good Digestive Enzymes Feel Good Starter Kit Feel Good Skincare KIMBERLY’S BOOKS The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart The Beauty Detox Solution Beauty Detox Foods Beauty Detox Power Radical Beauty Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life You Are More Than You Think You Are OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY! How to Believe in Your Self Worth with Jamie Kern Lima How to Raise Your Standards In Your Love Life with Matthew Hussey How to Eat to Beat Your Diet with New York Times best selling author Dr. William Li The issues with consuming vegetable and seed oils with Dr. Catherine Shanahan How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo How to Optimize Your Metabolic Health with Dr. Casey Means TRANSCRIPT: Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:01.436)Hi Ingrid, thank you so much for joining us today. Ingrid (00:04.802)Thanks for having me! Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:07.834)You know, I think your book really stood out to me because I only recently heard of this word fawn and fawning. And we all hear about fight and flight quite a bit because of all the nervous discussion and then freeze. But this whole fawning aspect, which of course we’re going to get into really deeply today, seems to be newer, at least in its identification. Ingrid (00:21.891)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:34.556)Can you tell us a little bit as a clinical psychologist how you even started focusing on this aspect in your work? Ingrid (00:42.666)Yeah, it’s new on the scene to just about everyone, actually. We’ve long talked about fight, flight and freeze, but I feel like fawning has been kind of hiding in plain sight and there are lots of different reasons for that. But one, think when you think about fight, flight and freeze, they look like obvious sort of trauma responses, right? You’re going against the threat. But with fawning, you’re actually leaning in. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:02.138)Yes. Ingrid (01:07.832)the source of harm. And there’s this appeasement factor, which could look like flirting or flattering or going along to get along. There’s a caretaking aspect. So it looks like you have agency. It looks like conscious choice, but actually underneath that is just like a fight, flight and freeze responses and unconscious reflexive survival mechanism. And so, you know, Pete, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:29.519)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:34.864)And why did you focus on this? Ingrid (01:36.782)Yeah, well, so Pete Walker coined the term, the Fawn response, I think in like 2013, but it’s really just coming into the mainstream now. And I come at his work and through this lens of complex trauma, which is relational trauma, in part because I’m a clinical psychologist, but more than that, I’m a childhood trauma survivor. And the reason I became a psychologist to begin with is largely because I’ve been trying to crawl out from under something that I’ve Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:01.754)Yes. Ingrid (02:05.28)lived with my whole life and none of the other frameworks ever freed me, right? Whether you talked about people pleasing or codependency or, know, it just felt like those frameworks were keeping me just as stuck as everything else I tried. And so when I came upon Pete Walker’s work and understanding these behaviors, you know, what we’ve called sort of codependent or people pleasing behaviors, in this trauma-informed lens, it was like, my word, I finally make sense to myself, right? And it just kind of set off this cascade of not only personal understanding, but my work with my clients changed. And now here we have the book on fawning. So hopefully, honestly, more people can make sense to themselves too. That’s the whole point, yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:58.074)You know, I really, think there’s, I think this is a lot more common than we realize. And I also, you know, applaud your bravery and telling some of your story in the book and sharing client stories. And I have to say Ingrid, when I started to read your book, I got a very specific feeling in my body. You know, trauma can get stored somatically and I’ve done so much work on myself, but it brought me back to Ingrid (03:04.992)Yeah. Ingrid (03:10.999)Hmm. Ingrid (03:19.403)Mmm. Mmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:27.41)my childhood and very early adolescence where I know you talk about being 13 and 12, 13, 14. I just remember walking around in the world and being quite innocent. And I started my period later and I started to get, my aunt said this to me, oh, you’re getting all this attention from men. And they would sort of look and be like, you here’s this, you know, what they would be pretty little girl or teenager. And I didn’t know what to do. I would smile. Ingrid (03:28.59)Mmm. Ingrid (03:33.249)Yeah. Ingrid (03:39.918)Hmm. Ingrid (03:54.349)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:56.144)or sometimes even giggle like you talk about when you’re feeling uncomfortable. And my author said to me, stop smiling. And it was almost like this shame, know, every time we went into public, don’t smile. And I remember being very confused and feeling shame and feeling like I didn’t really know what was going on. And then reading your book and I thought about it, but it just feels very complicated. There’s a complication to finding, cause we’re not trying to flirt. Ingrid (04:00.035)Yeah. Ingrid (04:04.267)Wow. Ingrid (04:09.966)Mmm. Aww. Ingrid (04:19.416)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:24.828)We’re trying to be safe. We’re trying to get out of danger. It’s very uncomfortable. But then there’s this shame that can get wrapped into it. So I started to read the book and I was like, gosh, I didn’t really dig into fawning before, but I really think that’s what was going on. Ingrid (04:33.176)That’s right. Ingrid (04:39.277)Mm-hmm. Ingrid (04:43.438)I think it is very common and I think about it this way that fawning tends to come online when fight, flight and freeze are either unavailable or would make things worse. So if you think about your example there and certainly my childhood, right, fighting back to the powers that be to, you know, largely men or your parents, they’re twice your size, they hold all the power. Yeah, it’s not going, you know, they literally hold your life in their hands. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (04:56.251)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:06.77)Yeah. Ingrid (05:13.454)The flight response, right, where are going to go? You’re going to be brought right back to the scene of the crime. Where are you going to go? This is wherever you go. This sort of male gaze, this threatening sort of, it’s the waters that we swim in day in, day out. And the freeze response, although also very common response to trauma, when things are so chronic and ongoing and it’s day in and it’s day out, the body found this way to adapt. I believe it is this ultimately genius adaptation to go, This is my reality, right? That I have to navigate. I can’t fight back. I can’t leave and I can’t freeze. I can’t be a deer in headlights. I got to get up and go to school every day and sit at the breakfast table and engage with these people. And so it really struck me, particularly when I was writing the book, just how many systems of power the body is navigating on any given day. And listen, the body knows where it resides in the pecking order. Like it knows that I’m not the one. at the top of the food chain. And so this reflexive thing of like, well, you hold the power. I need to make sure you’re happy in order for me to be safe and the body will always privilege safety and survival. Right? So all these historical ways that we’ve talked about some of these behaviors like, well, know, Kimberly just raised your self-esteem or smile or don’t smile. Right? It’s like you could get either side of the equation. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:22.02)Five. Yes. Ingrid (06:37.026)telling you to just do all of these things that maybe seem so obvious and yet they were not available to us. And this is where the shame comes in. It’s like, you know, well, how could you stay in that relationship or how could you smile when they were being so aggressive or how could you this? How could you that? you know, shame is a deep symptom. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:45.264)Yeah Ingrid (06:59.09)of complex trauma, but you can see why too. goes hand in hand with the Fawn response that in order to keep yourself safe often and not knowingly, sometimes you have a sense of it, but often not knowing, there is this level of self abandonment, of betrayal. We know that I can’t respond to all of my values or all of what’s going to sort of honor who I am. I have to privilege this one piece first and it comes at a cost. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:15.186)Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:27.268)Yes. Well, you know what it feels like Ingrid as you’re describing it and I can recall this. am feeling it and just trying to really process this trauma, which is obviously still stored somewhere in me is this feeling of being deeply misunderstood because when the Imam was saying, well, don’t smile like I was doing something wrong. It was like, wait, I didn’t ask for this attention and I don’t want this attention and I’m actually uncomfortable and I don’t know what to do. Ingrid (07:32.78)Mm. Ingrid (07:42.199)Yes. Ingrid (07:46.211)Yeah. Ingrid (07:53.996)Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:54.052)And so it’s just feeling like no one else is looking after me, misunderstood on our like kind of on our own, like this feeling of aloneness, abandonment, you know? Ingrid (07:57.592)Mmm. Ingrid (08:03.032)That’s right. I think that that’s real, right? That you’re not really seen for being a whole person. And there tends to be this sort of hyper independence that develops alongside a chronic fawn response for that reason. It’s like, we’re never really fully or wholly seen by anybody else. It’s like, I’m the only one who has my back. So I have to sort of react accordingly. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:19.932)We’ll Ingrid (08:29.59)in the world. And there’s a real sadness even as you talk about it right now. think there’s such a heartbreak there that in order to keep yourself safe, you had to prioritize these men and how they were sort of looking at you. And often with fawning, it’s sort of like, don’t like you, but I need you to like me in order to stay safe. Or maybe if you do like me, you won’t hurt me. And when your body has a sense that you’re being sort of pursued or Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:51.6)Bye. Ingrid (08:56.974)and you don’t really feel safe, like you’re still a child and you’re an old man and you know, it’s like, yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to hold. It’s like you said, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:08.07)Well, Ingrid, you I think like your experiences and my experiences, I imagine a lot of women listening to this would be like, wait, I wasn’t actually sexually assaulted. No one actually, you know, did something physical, but there was uncomfortability. Can you share a little bit about, you know, what happened with your stepdad where he was, you know, having you sit on his lap in the hot tub or going to Vegas and he didn’t actually physically assault you, but there was a lot of uncomfortability. Ingrid (09:14.029)Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ingrid (09:23.032)Yeah. Ingrid (09:27.342)Mm-hmm. Ingrid (09:36.397)Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s very common that a lot of us, and this is based on sort of the old idea of trauma by definition, we looked at it as though a certain event entitled you to use that word. And those events tended to be very clear and obvious and everyone would agree, right? It’s a vet coming back from war time. It’s a car crash. It’s sexual assault. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:37.532)that went on for years. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:52.412)Right. Ingrid (10:01.347)things along those lines. And so a lot of us now, it’s like we have this trauma measuring stick that’s like, well, mine wasn’t that bad, right? And when we do that, unfortunately, we say, well, now I’ve been, I’m not allowed, I can’t avail myself of all of these tools of trauma healing that would actually be the thing that would help me, right? And so A part of what I’m hoping to do is also just educate people on complex trauma generally. Complex trauma is relational trauma. It’s ongoing experiences of threat over time. And it might not be this overt thing that everyone could name. It might be your parents, whether it was culturally or they were doing the best that they could, or maybe there’s generational trauma, but you were left feeling invalidated, like chronically invalidated or unseen. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:36.741)Right. Ingrid (10:49.455)over time, this buildup, this residue, the body learns like, oh, I can’t be my full self. Oh, it’s not safe to be me. And this sort of, know, fawning looks like this masking element of like, well, who do you need me to be in order to be included and seen and valued? And I think, yeah, this misconception of like trauma looks a certain way. It kept me on the outside for a long time, even knowing my own story, because similarly, like you said, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:12.914)Right. Ingrid (11:19.531)My stepdad didn’t like overtly sexually assault me. He was grooming me for years and it started with these, you know, seemingly innocuous, but my body felt that it was not innocuous of, you know, come on over here and sit on my lap and I’m glad we can be this close. And I knew in those moments that I wasn’t safe, but I’m also sort of clocking like, would anyone else think this was bad? Like he’s Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:46.757)Right. Ingrid (11:47.501)He’s my stepdad and he’s being nice and he’s not always nice and I like it better when he’s nice. And so I’m also leaning into that. I knew I couldn’t embarrass him. I knew that I couldn’t push back. I knew that he had another side to him where he really could steamroll me. He could be a rager. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:04.402)What about your mom? You couldn’t go to your mom. Ingrid (12:07.565)I couldn’t go to my mom in part because I saw her disappear as he came into our lives. It was like she just was in his shadow, wouldn’t say anything unless she’d heard him literally say it before. I say in the book that it was like my mom went missing even when she was standing right in front of me. It was just she was not there. Ultimately, I did do the things that we’re all told to do as though we’re all entitled to having a voice and standing up for ourselves and setting healthy boundaries as though it’s that easy. I did attempt to do those things and it made things a lot worse because now I had a stepfather who was grooming me, parading me around as a girlfriend and a mom who didn’t believe me. They were like, you’re a liar. You made it all up. What are you talking about? Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (12:51.825)Ugh. Ingrid (12:59.339)Again, a whole lot happened, but not a whole lot happened. Even when I turned to social services as a child, they were like, is it that bad? Right? And it sort of seemed like the collective, yeah, the collective response was like, well, no, it’s not that bad. We’re not really going to intervene. There’s not much we can do. So my body learned along with the cultural conditioning of what trauma is that it wasn’t that bad. know, this is normal. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:07.908)Right, we’re questioned. Ingrid (13:27.039)And you’re not safe, essentially. If I’m a nervous system perspective, I learned, boy, I am not relationally safe. The only thing I can do to be relationally safe is to go along with your narrative to a certain degree, don’t push back, to swallow this deeper truth that never really got fully validated or metabolized. And ultimately what I now know is that kept me stuck for decades, right? It was like, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:54.438)Yeah. Ingrid (13:55.435)imprisoned in my own body in a way that’s essentially what unmetabolized trauma really is, is that you’re stuck, you’re stuck. So understanding complex trauma and understanding the Fawn response, like I said, after decades, I sat on so many therapist couches, I’ve been sober for decades, I’ve done so much inner work, it wasn’t like I wasn’t trying, I got three degrees in psychology, right? It was like I did all of this to try to overcome Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:17.882)Right. The wounded here. Yeah. Yes. Ingrid (14:21.237)Yes, this feeling of like, what’s wrong with me? I’m still broken. Why can’t I have a healthy relationship? Why can’t I really have this loving relationship with myself? And these were the lenses that allowed me to see myself differently, to access myself differently, and actually to finally heal. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:40.722)Yes, and there’s this whole amazing section in the book about that. But before we go in, Ingrid, and someone’s listening to this, can you explain a little bit about the difference between fawning and people pleasing? Some signs of like, hey, you know, these are some real signs of the fawning. And also, part three, it’s this complex question is, what kind of patterns might you see in relationship where you haven’t addressed fawning or what types of Ingrid (14:53.432)Yeah. Ingrid (15:05.966)Mm-hmm. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:09.074)people might you attract if you’re in that fawning trauma cycle. So signs, difference with people pleasing and relationships. Ingrid (15:13.751)Yeah, so great questions. Ingrid (15:18.383)So for me, I think both actually people pleasing and the language of codependency, these were our best attempts to name something that is real, right? With whatever information we had at the time. But. the problem that I can have with some of these terms is that they sort of place the problem as it were in an individual’s body as though it just originated out of thin air for no reason, as though it’s a problem that they possess that they need to fix and solve. And to me, the Fawn response, I see it as sort of the engine of these behaviors. It’s the why, right? That’s what has gone. missing this notion that we are relational beings, we are hardwired, we co-regulate, we cohabitate, we literally need one another. So to divorce this notion of needing one another and our dependency, our literal dependency on one another is really shaming and blaming. First of all, to the caregivers, it’s like we go here, here’s the emotional load, do all the heavy lifting. And then when they do it, we go, what’s wrong with you? Why can’t you take care of yourself? Right? There’s this crazy double bind. so fawning to me is the heartbeat of these behaviors that allowed me to go, that’s why I’m privileging. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:31.1)Yeah. Ingrid (16:44.917)external validation or your opinion of me or I’m wondering why you’re mad at me. It’s why I’m so hypervigilant because my entire sense of safety in the world was built on needing to prioritize what was happening outside my body in order to keep my body safe. I had to be divorced from my internal sense of safety and orient to your need first and then come back to me. go, my gosh, that makes perfect sense. And the second thing that Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (16:49.722)Yeah. Ingrid (17:14.209)I think the fawn response tends to that people pleasing and codependency have not historically is the context that I am not just a dysfunctional person. My body adapted, I think in a very genius way to a deeply dysfunctional environment or context. And again, it’s the piece where I go, my gosh, okay, now it makes sense that I was doing this, right? It’s not just because I love to… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:34.651)Yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:41.286)Yeah, Ingrid (17:42.893)I’m obsessed with control, right? It’s like, no, I was obsessed with safety. I was obsessed with the feeling that I could exist in the world. And now I understand why. So to me, that’s the sort of, it’s like, we know more now. These terms arose before we understood trauma at all. And they were also steeped in this sort of disease model, which I think we just know better now. Let’s do better. Let’s help people understand where these… Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:44.859)Wait! Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:50.63)Yes. Ingrid (18:09.913)these behaviors came from. And so some of the common signs and symptoms then are if I can’t have a voice because it makes it worse, right? It puts me as more of a target and maybe you’re gonna come for me. Well, we’re conflict avoidant, right? So a lot of chronic fauners have kind of lost access to a healthy fight response, which is all these things that we’re told to just go and do, right? Set a healthy boundary. Well, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:20.347)Yeah. Ingrid (18:34.849)setting a boundary might mean that I’m really going to get steamrolled. Saying a no might mean, now you’re really going to come for me. And so the body learned time and time again, like, no, no, no, no, it’s safer not to push back, right? It’s safer. But ultimately, what happened for me and what happens for a lot of my clients is like the FON response is almost 10 steps out ahead of you, like a perpetual protector or a shield. And it’s, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:41.692)Right. Ingrid (19:01.769)acting, even environments that might be perfectly safe, but the body goes, I’m not going to risk it. This is my way to safety. This is how I show up in the world. We tend to be conflict avoidant. We tend to prioritize everyone else’s needs, our own. think even this idea where we started the podcast of like, your trauma matters, but mine doesn’t really. That’s also kind of a common sort of fawning response. It’s like, you’re entitled to have Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:08.166)Well, yeah. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:20.7)Yes. Ingrid (19:31.533)your story and experience and you should have all the resources, but mine don’t really matter that much. What else? Yes. Yes. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:37.083)Yeah. So gets swung down over again, like for decades it took you, I think in the book you said it was 30 years, you know, for you to really sort of unpack that. there’s just, feels at least, you know, in my experience with myself, it feels like there’s all these different energies wrapped in. It’s sort of like that shame as guilty, should I have been doing that? Like, should I have been doing something else? But then fear, I didn’t know what else to do. And then this. Ingrid (19:46.358)Ugh. Ingrid (19:51.214)Yeah. Ingrid (19:58.926)Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Right. Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:09.02)hollowness in my throat or you can’t really express yourself. And, you know, it affects relationships for a long time, I think, until you can actually find center. Obviously, you when we we heal ourselves, we find that centeredness and compassion. Everything around us changes. But, you know, like you said, sometimes we don’t hear about this for a long time, or we don’t have tools for a while. So it does go on. It’s pervasive. Ingrid (20:11.119)Mmm, yep. Ingrid (20:29.624)Yeah. Ingrid (20:36.621)Well, look what the bind is, right? Because when you say center yourself to me, what that means is you start to grow a sense of internal safety, right? Which is that all my safety doesn’t reside outside of my body. But when your whole life has been built on this very foundation that your sense of safety resides outside of your own body, just telling someone to like center themselves, and it doesn’t make any sense. It’s like, what are you even talking about? Of course, logically, we go, well, I do love myself, right? Like, Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:43.408)Yes. Ingrid (21:05.591)It’s not about these ideas that make sense. It’s about a felt sense. It’s a nervous system experience of, don’t care what you say and how you say it, my body is not safe in the world. And so we have to start from a place where we acknowledge someone’s lack of internal safety and go, yep, that’s where we’re starting. I’m not pretending like you have all this access, you’re just not using it. It’s you’ve never had the experience of really feeling autonomous, of feeling maybe like an adult, you know? This language that so many of us use, like you can see now with all this gray hair, I’m in my 50s, but half of the time I go, my God,