Elevate Your Relationships through Radical Listening with Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh [Episode #986]

This Week’s Episode: 

In this heartfelt conversation, Kimberly interviews mother-daughter duo Suzy and Halle Hopkins, co-authors of ‘What to Do When You Get Dumped.’ They discuss the inspiration behind their book, which addresses the emotional turmoil of heartbreak and the journey of healing. Suzy shares her personal experience of being unexpectedly left by her husband after 30 years of marriage, while Halle reflects on her own experiences with heartbreak. The conversation delves into the importance of allowing oneself to grieve, the power of illustrations in storytelling, and the significance of finding faith and understanding in the healing process. In this conversation, Hallie and her mother Suzy discuss the themes of healing, personal growth, and the importance of sharing one’s story. They explore the purpose behind Hallie’s book, which aims to provide encouragement and guidance for those navigating heartbreak. The discussion delves into the universal themes found in personal experiences, the journey of self-love, and the significance of support from unexpected sources. They also touch on generational perspectives on mental health and the importance of authenticity in relationships.

 

About Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh

Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener is a researcher, author, and well-known executive coach. His studies have taken him to such far-flung places as Greenland, India, Kenya, and Israel where he has researched culture as it relates to wellbeing.  In addition to happiness, he has researched strengths, hospitality, friendship, and leadership. Robert has authored more than 75 peer-reviewed academic articles and chapters and has a citation count of more than 27 thousand. Dr. Biswas-Diener has authored many books, including Positive Provocation (2023), the New York Times Best Seller, The Upside of Your Dark Side (2014), and the 2007 PROSE Award winner, Happiness.

As a consultant and trainer, Robert has presented in 30 nations. He has presented keynotes and workshops to Lululemon, Deloitte, Humana, Standard Chartered Bank, Australia Department of Defense, Queensland Police, Ruby Receptionists, AARP, Cellebrite, Financial Planners Association, Australian Council for Educational Leaders, Japanese Psychological Association, Kaiser Permanente, and the World Bank, among others.

In 2024, Thinkers50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world.

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Guest Resources 

Book:  RADICAL LISTENING: The Art of True Connection

Website: robertdiener.com

 

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Radical Listening
02:12 The Importance of Listening in Diverse Cultures
05:05 The Birth of Radical Listening
07:45 Listening vs. Speaking: The Balance of Communication
10:23 Intentional Listening: The Key to Connection
14:27 Overcoming Barriers to Presence in Listening
17:18 Navigating Conversations: Setting Boundaries
19:19 The Dangers of Half Listening
23:19 Asking Probing Questions for Deeper Connection
28:16 Understanding Underlying Issues in Communication
30:20 Levels of Acknowledgement
32:22 Building Connections Through Radical Listening
34:32 The Challenge of Acceptance
36:46 Navigating Trauma and Listening
38:27 The Importance of Intention in Listening
40:41 Self-Care for Effective Listening
42:58 Understanding Listening Skills
43:44 The Ripple Effect of Radical Listening
47:40 Starting Your Journey in Radical Listening
51:20 Listening as an Act of Love

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OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY!

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• How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877
• How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger [Episode #873]
• How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo [Episode #867]

 

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.76)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for our very special conversation today. We have both co-authors on the show today for the wonderful new book, which I love, called Radical Listening, The Art of True Connection, which provides tools for creating stronger, more resilient relationships and navigating conflicts with empathy and mutual respect. This subject matter is something that the world really needs.

So our first co-author is Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener, and he is a researcher, an author, an executive coach. He has presented in over 30 nations. And in 2024, Thinker 50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world. Thank you, Robert, for being here.

Robert Biswas-Diener (00:51.598)
Thank you so much for having me.

Kimberly Snyder (00:53.846)
And we are so blessed to have our second co-author here, Professor Christian von Neuwerberg, PhD. He’s a leading academic and executive coach as well with an international reputation. He has taught at, we’ll talk about this, universities in Ireland, in Australia. I love the international combination of both of you. He’s presented all around the world as well, from the US to the United Kingdom, Europe, New Zealand.

and the Middle East. Interesting. He’s also passionate about motorcycling. You would get along with my husband, Christian, writing and coaching. So welcome both of you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Christian (01:37.929)
Thank you so much. We’re really excited to be here and thanks so much for the work that you do Kim.

Kimberly Snyder (01:43.334)
thank you. So radical listening. What an amazing concept in a world where it seems like everybody’s focused on speaking and it seems that so much can fall through the cracks. Before we get into some of the concepts in your book, maybe you can share a little bit about why this subject matter is important to both of you. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of you have such international credentials.

part of your bio. I imagine that plays a part in listening when you’re going around the world in very different cultures. Yeah, so let’s start there.

Christian (02:20.841)
Thank you so much, Kimberly. Yeah, it’s so nice of you to make that connection. You know, one of the reasons we wrote the book was exactly what you said. We felt that talking about listening is more important now than it ever has been. But if I think back to where did I become interested in this? Well, you know, I have kind of an international background. My mother was Japanese. My father was Belgian.

I was born and brought up in Beirut, Lebanon. And I think one of the things that that really helped me with was I had this perspective that there’s lots of different ways of seeing anything. When my mom was bringing me up, she was really highlighting the importance of being respectful. In fact, being quiet, being invisible was kind of one of her messages. From the Western perspective of my father,

Kimberly Snyder (02:53.314)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (03:15.318)
Hmm.

Christian (03:20.145)
It was more like go and get stuff, know, go, need to be put yourself out there. And I was very lucky to have an American education. went to an American community school. went to an American university. So I think I’ve always had that curiosity about, there’s so many different ways to see things. But the other side of it is I’ve always been seen as the other wherever I am because of my mixed background.

I’m always not from that place. And if you’re not from that place, you’ve kind of got to be pretty alert. So I think part of my growing up was being highly alert, noticing things, listening. And I guess my question has always been, how can I fit in here? And in order to fit in, I have to listen very carefully to what’s going on around me. So thanks for noticing that, Kimberly. It’s so…

I feel seen already.

Kimberly Snyder (04:20.366)
Well, thank you so much for sharing that Christian. And I really relate to that because my mom comes from the Philippines and I grew up in a very completely actually all white community in Connecticut. So I was always the exotic one, the other one. And there was a lot of characteristics and things that came from that experience. And one of them I would also say is being really highly attuned.

to what’s going on, maybe even hypervigilant because I didn’t want to stand out. You don’t want to stand out when you’re five and four years old. So I really relate to that. Thank you so much. And Robert, and also can you guys share how you know each other too?

Robert Biswas-Diener (05:04.54)
Yeah, that’s actually a little bit what I wanted to talk about, which is, Christian and I have long been in each other’s orbits because we are in the same profession. We both are largely involved with positive psychology research. So our paths would cross at conferences, but our friendship and ability to collaborate really blossomed during sort of the height.

or the lowest point, depending how you look at it, of the pandemic. So like many people, March 2020 was a pretty rough time for us. A lot of our work was drying up. There was a lot of uncertainty at that time. And we decided that we would just connect via Zoom and we would just have these sort of one and two hour free flowing conversations. And yeah, just the two of us.

Kimberly Snyder (05:36.11)
Kimberly Snyder (05:57.154)
Just the two of you. Wow, two hours, I love it.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:02.52)
Yeah, and so we would just, know, like once a week, twice a week, we would just chat about whatever things we agreed on, things we didn’t agree on. You know, we had lots of, you know, kind of little intellectual arguments, lots of just sharing stories, lots of just, just free ranging conversation. And it was out of that, that the book Radical Listening was born. I think normally an author is sort of pregnant with an idea, you know, this is my

my research or this is what I’ve done for the last 20 years so I want to write about it. And I was not naturally a listener, I’m naturally a speaker, but it was the process of interacting with Christian and seeing how respectful he was, even in approaching disagreement and how our different styles that I’m a certain type of listener, I would say kind of a very engaged, jump in quick kind of listener and he’s kind of that,

Kimberly Snyder (06:46.189)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:59.642)
why it give you your full turn to talk listener. And just watching those two dynamics interact, I was like, think we might have something to say about this. think maybe we should be writing about this. And Christian kind of simultaneously had the idea and the book was born.

Kimberly Snyder (07:16.812)
Wow. So I love it when something comes so naturally and organically just births out of this true need that you both felt. And I see so many books nowadays around creating boundaries and like, have to express this. There’s a lot, you know, especially for women, like being clear, like boundaries. Can you share how listening on the other end of it would

radically, I mean to your title and also how you speak about here some of these benefits creating stronger relationships, being able to navigate conflicts, how the listening part is really needed and beneficial.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:03.484)
It’s a great question. I do think that assertiveness and boundaries are important. One of my worries is that this just becomes more labor for women if women then have to take on all the responsibility for setting boundaries and making sure they’re protected in terms of time and other things. One of the great things about listening is that it has relatively little cost.

It’s pretty easy to do, relatively little energy costs, mental costs, emotional costs. And one of the points that we make that I think makes our approach to listening a little different is that listening is motivated. It’s easy just to think about listening as if you’re just taking in sounds from the air and your job is to understand them.

Kimberly Snyder (08:46.849)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:54.938)
Like you’re just a giant radar dish. Like I’m just taking it in. And then my principal job is, I understand what you’re saying? That’s sort of the traditional active listening model. And that’s not wrong. I mean, there’s some good things to be gotten from that. But we think that listening is motivated and that you’re listening to accomplish something in a conversation. So in one conversation, you might want to listen in order to validate your friend.

Kimberly Snyder (08:57.069)
Yes.

Robert Biswas-Diener (09:22.2)
And in that mode, that validation mode of listening, you’re going to pay attention to certain types of things. You’re going to construe your role as listener in a certain way. And that’s very different than if you’re listening to mount a counter argument. You’re going to listen in a very different way for that. Or if you’re listening to solve a problem, you’re actually going to be listening for an entirely different set of information. So just kind of understanding what your mode is, I think can be empowering to people.

because it allows you to be more effective conversational.

Kimberly Snyder (09:58.102)
I like how you talk about, both of you write in the book about the intention to listen because sometimes our friends want to share their, or husband or spouse wants to share their suffering or what they’re going through. And if you’re just kind of like, uh-huh, and you’re doing something while you’re like listening or chiming in, you don’t get that intention across. It can feel very disconnected.

Christian (10:23.827)
You’re right, Kimberly. And by the way, you’re doing radical listening right now with us because as Robert was speaking, you were interjecting. There were little noises you made and you made tiny words. And that for us is an example of radical listening, right? So the typical active listening is you probably just go completely quiet.

And I would say active listening is mostly about looking like you’re listening. Whereas radical listening is being genuinely interested. And that enthusiasm comes up in laughter. I mean, you’ve been laughing, you’ve been really engaged with what we’re saying. So the interesting thing with radical listening is that it does apply in professional contexts, but also very much in personal contexts.

And I know this podcast is called Feel Good. And what we’re arguing is that in addition to simply understanding somebody, and we often think, yeah, I listen in order to understand, I listen in order to communicate. But we’re saying that every listening opportunity is an opportunity to build connection with the person you’re listening to. And how does that happen? Well, one of the ways it happens is when we match.

As listeners, we match what’s needed by the person we’re listening to. And for example, you were talking about like in a, in when we’re with friends, you know, the intention is I would like to listen to this person in a way that makes them feel seen, valued and heard. And if that’s my intention, then picking up what’s wanted by them. So sometimes a friend of mine might come along and say,

You know, I’ve had a really bad day in the office. It’s been a terrible day. And picking up whether do they want to be acknowledged for that? Is that all they want? Or are they actually looking for a solution? So what we argue, Kimberly, is that the matching is important. If I pick up what my, person I’m listening to wants, and I provide that, which is just acknowledgement, then there’s connection and the person feels good.

Christian (12:48.361)
But if we accidentally mismatch it, and instead of just listening, I’m jumping in with solutions because I think what they want is a solution, or I assume that they don’t want to be feeling down. And I’m like, come on, chin up, you’re gonna be great. In fact, the irony is, although my intention is to be helpful, because I haven’t really paid attention to what it is they want, and I haven’t been intentional.

about matching my listening to what they want, can ironically get in the way of that connection.

Kimberly Snyder (13:24.982)
Right. Well, it sounds like when I was reading the book, radical listening involves a level of being present, right? Because if we’re not really here, which is an issue for many people today, they’re half listening, they may be scrolling on their phone or they’re cooking dinner or doing whatever they’re doing. But this idea of being intentional and intuitive is really, you know,

You have to be there. So what would you say to someone listening to this that says, well, you know, I struggled to be present or I would love to share this book with my spouse, not our husband, not just, you know, stereotyping men, but sometimes there is that my husband does this as well, that jumping into, well, you should do this and this. And to your point, Christian, I don’t, didn’t want you to tell me what to do. I just wanted to share this challenge I had today.

So what do we do if someone’s already struggling to be present and improve their listening skills?

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:27.79)
Yeah, so there’s a few things in what you just said. One is if the speaker can make their intention clear, just articulate it, I just want to be heard. just, I don’t need a solution or please give me a solution. Then that can help the conversation align because it suggests a role for the listener. So that’s helpful right up front.

Kimberly Snyder (14:42.178)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:54.714)
And I think people can be, for the lack of a better word, trained to do that or train themselves to do that. So you’re just walking in saying, look, I just want to vent for five minutes. And I think that’s going to do it for me. not looking for a solution. The other thing is really to recognize, and I think first within ourselves, some of those common obstacles, those distractions to being present.

And the easiest one are sort of those external distractions. Your phone is calling your attention, the kids are pulling at you, the dog needs out, whatever the external environment provides. But there’s loads of internal ones as well. And I’ll just give a quick example of it. We call it time poverty. But I think of it as the sort of like the walk with me effect. So you’ve probably at some time in your life been with someone who was like,

Christian (15:41.961)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (15:46.076)
Okay, I’d love to listen to you, Kimberly. I’ve got five minutes. I got another appointment. Walk with me. And you’re supposed to walk with them to their next appointment and tell you whatever you need to tell them en route. And that’s already a lack of presence because they’re eventually communicating to you. I’m already thinking about what’s coming next. You have divided attention at best. You’re not my priority. I’m trying to multitask. And an alternative to that would be

Kimberly Snyder (16:00.949)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:15.63)
you can have four minutes of my undivided attention. I’ll stop here, I’ll turn to you, lay it on me. You are my priority. And then I’m gonna go to something else. And if it’s gonna take more than four minutes, we should probably not do it now. And we should probably find a time that gives it the time that it deserves.

Kimberly Snyder (16:35.214)
Well, let me ask you guys a question. We have these community Zooms. Sometimes there’s hundreds of people, 500 people. And at the end, I’ll say, does anyone, you can raise your hand. Does anyone want to ask a question or speak or share? Please keep it brief. Right? So I say that, but then people come on and they’re telling these heartfelt stories. And sometimes it just goes on and on. So what if this is your friend or this situation?

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:38.236)
you

Kimberly Snyder (17:03.874)
And you’ve already set that boundary. can actively, radically listen, but then people don’t follow that. How can you, you know, be compassionate, but actually, you know, hold to the boundaries you want? Yeah.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:18.684)
Yeah, think there’s a few things you can do. And I’m sure we’ll talk about this several times, but interrupting is one of them. And interrupting, I know when I say that word, it just sounds rude. But if you want to call it interjecting, or you want to call it jumping in, there are many times conversationally where jumping in is actually very beneficial to both parties.

Kimberly Snyder (17:36.127)
It does.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:47.694)
And many times that it’s not even considered rude. So anytime you’re speaking simultaneously, that’s an interruption. So if I’m speaking and you say, mm-hmm, that’s an interruption. It’s just a very small one. So we don’t think it’s that rude. So sometimes when your friend is going on and on and telling, if you jump in and you just say, my gosh, that’s so awful.

that sort of brings them to a halt, but they don’t consider that all that rude because you’re acknowledging them when you do it. Or the same thing, you can interrupt with a question that sort of steers the conversation a little bit. Like, my gosh, Kimberly, you mind if I jump in right there? You just said something so important. I wonder what you take away from that. And those…

Kimberly Snyder (18:40.854)
Mmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:42.588)
kinds of interjections are typically not even recognized as an interruption even though they technically are.

Christian (18:50.271)
Kimberly, can I jump in interject here because you said a little phrase earlier that really kind of highlights something I want to share with your listeners, which is this idea of half listening. You said sometimes you’re kind of half listening. And, you know, for me, the ideal is listening to someone is giving them your full attention for a certain amount of time. Then after that comes not listening at all.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:52.038)
Thanks.

Kimberly Snyder (19:07.565)
Right.

Christian (19:19.997)
And I would say the worst is half listening. And what I mean by that is half listening is really confusing for the person because it’s almost like there’s been an offer made of listening, but you’re not actually listening. So it’s very confusing. And I want to give a real example. And, you know, there was a time in my life when I was actually running courses on active listening. So I’d be delivering courses about active listening. And there was one day, it was a long day.

Kimberly Snyder (19:23.47)
Mm.

Christian (19:50.655)
I come home after a long day, I’m tired. I should have probably gone for a little walk in the park or something, but no, I went straight home because I’m tired. go in, I’ve still got like 200 emails and I need to get back early tomorrow. My son just pops in straight after me, like 10 minutes after me. And I half listened to Kimberly because I said to him, I think he was like 10 years old. And I said, Hey, how was your day at school? And.

Kimberly Snyder (20:09.56)
No.

Christian (20:20.231)
You see the half listening, because I’m not really intending to listen, but I just said that my mind is elsewhere. I’m already onto, I need to get onto my emails. Otherwise I’ll never get through all of this. And then he said, well, actually I fell down. I cut my knee and whatever in sports. And I said, good. I’m glad you had a good day on. And this actually happened. And I had to take a minute, Kimberly, because I thought, wait a minute.

Kimberly Snyder (20:40.718)
Christian (20:48.287)
I’m working with professionals around listening. And I thought, here’s the most important person in my life, literally. And I’m not doing it. I’m not doing it. And I did make a promise then. And this is something for everyone, I think, is that our idea of radical listening, it might be radical, but it’s also simple. And the idea is to use listening as a way of showing people that you value and appreciate.

Kimberly Snyder (20:57.665)
Hmm

Kimberly Snyder (21:17.879)
Yes.

Christian (21:17.981)
and just thinking about all the different ways we can do that. And like Robert mentioned, that that’s how we started having these conversations. But I’ll give you an example of how Robert is a great listener. We’d get onto a Zoom call, right? So it’s a Zoom call. And he’d say, right at the beginning, he’d say, let me just get my cat either out of the room or in the room. He’d take time to turn off his mobile phone. But you know what that was saying to me?

is I’m getting rid of all these distractions because what you have to say is important. So I think we can all think about what are the messages we’re giving to people. And the moment I say, look, I haven’t really got time for this or, you know, I’m sending this email, talk to me while I’m sending it, my message is actually, I don’t have time for you. You’re not that valuable. So anything we can do. you know, questions is one of our skills, Kimberly.

Kimberly Snyder (21:51.277)
Mm.

Christian (22:14.649)
So you know that trip home from school. don’t know if some of your listeners will know what I’m talking about, especially if you have a teenager and you’re like, how was school? It’s like, if you get a grant out of them, you’re loving it, right? But maybe ask a different question. You know, like, what was the best part of school today? What was the thing you most enjoyed? So maybe change the question so that it’s more engaging.

and maybe also be okay with silence because sometimes we get frustrated and we keep asking, why don’t you talk to me? Why aren’t you saying anything? So just that being comfortable with them and creating the space which is, look, I’m here to listen to you. And if you want to share something with me, I’m gonna be sitting here quietly. And if you’re not ready yet, that’s okay. So just creating the space for, this is space for you to share something with me.

Kimberly Snyder (22:50.478)
What?

Kimberly Snyder (23:07.63)
and

Christian (23:12.381)
and not being tempted to try and fill it or to force people to say something. So that’s just a little example. don’t know if it’s helpful.

Robert Biswas-Diener (23:19.536)
Can I add something to that, Kimberly, do you mind? Christian really inspired me one time with a question that he asked his son. And it goes to show that the other side of the coin that you have to be, as a listener, willing to accept what’s being said. If you’re asking a question and you’re putting yourself in the listening mode, you better be ready for what’s coming.

Kimberly Snyder (23:19.69)
Yes. Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (23:32.27)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (23:41.285)
No.

Robert Biswas-Diener (23:46.684)
So he one time asked his son, how am I doing as a parent? And his son was older when he said that, but then you have to be quite prepared to be like, I’m going to get feedback. And the day I heard this from him, I was so inspired by it. I went and asked my adult son, like, hey, how am I doing? And my son kind of gave me that teenager answer, like, good. But you know, and I was like, no, no, really. I want to know, like, what am I doing that works for you?

Kimberly Snyder (23:52.983)
wow.

Robert Biswas-Diener (24:15.1)
And it actually led to a really powerful connection.

Kimberly Snyder (24:20.162)
You guys are amazing fathers. I mean, I just have to say that this attunement and this, work and this type of really being present as fathers is such an inspiration today. Even the fact that you’re thinking about answering those, asking those questions.

Robert Biswas-Diener (24:34.463)
Thank

Christian (24:35.135)
Thank you so much.

Christian (24:39.455)
Kimberly, I was full of trepidation when I asked that question. And again, I want to say to your listeners, if you’re hesitating a little bit about asking it, it’s even more reason to build up the courage to do it. Because I can tell you, I was a little bit terrified. I had a particular type of parenting as a child and I wanted to make sure I didn’t replicate that. So it was very important to me. It was such an important question. And I was a little bit anxious about what…

Kimberly Snyder (24:52.046)
Hmm.

Christian (25:08.883)
my son would say. And he said to me that when you shout at me, I’m scared of you.

Kimberly Snyder (25:18.956)
Mmm.

Christian (25:20.671)
And that was terrible for me to hear. It’s the worst thing I could have ever heard. And I made a promise at that time. I said, well, we’re going to find different ways. I’m not going to shout at you anymore. This was when he was around 14 years old. And I was of the mindset that discipline is important. I want him to grow up and know the difference between right and wrong. So my intention was good, but that’s definitely not how I wanted to come across.

And today I’m grateful I had that conversation. Honestly, Kimberly, I think my son and I have a wonderful relationship now. And I don’t think I’m exaggerating if I say, if I hadn’t had that conversation, the relationship wouldn’t be as good today. And he’s 28 now, know, so was 14 years ago. And it was a kind of asking a question. And Robert’s right. You have to be prepared then to listen without being defensive. And I didn’t say,

Kimberly Snyder (26:08.247)
Easy.

Christian (26:19.351)
it’s because you don’t do what I tell you or I’m trying to do the right thing. I just took it on board and said, that’s not my intention and I’m going to change that.

Kimberly Snyder (26:30.648)
So powerful. So part of radical listening is asking these probing questions where it allows that other person to express authentically.

Robert Biswas-Diener (26:42.02)
Yeah, absolutely. Questions vary in their quality. If someone says, my gosh, Kimberly, I had the best meal that I’ve ever had in my life. You don’t want to say, really, what time was the reservation for? That’s kind of an open-ended question, sort of, but it’s not a great question, right? A better question would be, what did you like about it? How did it differ from other meals? What were you expecting?

Christian (26:42.089)
think that’s right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (27:11.526)
So just getting in the habit of crafting questions that allow a person to express themselves or their experience.

Kimberly Snyder (27:21.71)
So let me ask you guys another question. And I’ll use my own example. Sometimes with my husband, he’s not the most, he’s not able to express his feelings all the time. So it sort of builds up and builds up. And then it’ll be like, you know, he’s like, I’m so angry that he doesn’t say, you know, I’m so upset this box got left outside or whatever. And I know it’s not about the box.

but it’s like all the work stress and everything that’s happened. So would you say part of radical listening is trying to go into like our interpretation of what it could be or saying, well, you know, what are you really upset about? how do we create more, let’s say our partner or our friend is challenged in their communication. How can we support that person more in your research and in your work?

Robert Biswas-Diener (28:16.468)
It’s a great question, Kimberly. Now, I don’t know if you’re asking us to save your marriage by providing some de facto couple therapy here.

Kimberly Snyder (28:22.382)
Oh no, our marriage is pretty good, but there is this definite, I don’t know, with women, could say we could definitely, like I’ll say exactly when I’m upset and he sort of, you know, will bottle it up and then it gets to this point where he’s just, it’s frustrating, you know, there’s so much happening and he’ll get frustrated. So he’s like more short fused.

Robert Biswas-Diener (28:42.172)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think your instincts are good, right? That it’s probably not just about the box. It’s probably other stuff. You can kind of see the forest as well as the trees. There is something precarious in using the word real, like what’s the real issue, because it suggests or sidelines the box as somehow not being real, but that is on the other end, right? That is part of it. So you don’t want to suggest

Kimberly Snyder (28:49.142)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (29:06.252)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (29:10.33)
I sometimes think that we fall into this metaphorical trap of thinking one thing is deeper and one thing is shallower and the shallower thing doesn’t have any worth. But I think it does. I think that is part of our experience. you know, if you were a coach just asking coaching questions and these don’t often translate just to everyday conversation, would be, you know, sort of the curiosity is why is this coming up right now?

Kimberly Snyder (29:41.282)
Mmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (29:42.424)
And why it’s coming up probably is because of the box and what else is there?

Kimberly Snyder (29:48.014)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (29:48.964)
Right. What’s behind it? No. Yeah.

Christian (29:51.081)
So Kimberly, may I add something there? Because I think I bottle things up as well, Kimberly. I guess, you know, everybody has their different way of doing things. the way I rationalize it is I want to figure this out before I tell somebody else about it. So I have this thing of I need to figure it out first and then I’ll share. And it does come out, you know, so when I’m…

I’m driving and my partner’s like, are we lost? I’m like, no, we’re not lost. We’re probably lost, right? In that moment. But Robert’s right. I think we have a chapter on this. One of the skills is acknowledging and thinking about the level of acknowledgement of different things. So we call them levels of acknowledgement. So I think the acknowledging whatever is presented to us in that moment to say the box was left outside.

It’s just thinking what’s the right level of acknowledgement for that, which is, okay, yeah, that was left outside. That must be annoying. Let’s try it. So kind of engaging with what’s presented, I think is a great way of building that connection and then allowing the kind of the trust to build. And that’s actually coming back to radical listening. You know, we’re in the world we live in now, everything’s divided. We’re kind of

polarized and our hope for radical listening is that it’s the starting point. So we’re seeing radical listening isn’t the answer to everything, but it’s the start of building a connection. So when people are venting and saying, can’t, step one is not to dismiss that to say, well, why are you angry about the box or why are you so angry about that? It’s actually acknowledging to say, okay, you seem pretty angry about.

Tell me a little bit about what the reasons for that. And we hope, this is a hope, that that building of connection of actually this person is actually interested in me, they are listening to me, makes it more likely that we’ll be able to form a dialogue. So I think there’s something there about whatever the situation is, acknowledge it at the level that the client is, the other person is presenting it at.

Christian (32:17.159)
And then the intention is to build a connection that we can build on.

Kimberly Snyder (32:22.35)
Wow, that is very powerful. I definitely resonate with that because I can say for myself, sometimes I don’t, but now I’ll just like, he’s angry again about something. it is now that speaking to you guys and reading your book, it can feel, even if I don’t say it out loud, dismissive, and I don’t wanna be dismissive. So one of the things I love how you talk about in the book a lot about connection, because it does seem that the world is becoming

more disconnected, not just between different factions and groups, but even in family life because people are busy and screens might be, people might be on TikTok and all sorts of things are happening. So it often feels like even in my friend groups that they’re like, yeah, I’m gonna wait for date night. I’m gonna, know, we’re gonna have this one dinner where we connect instead of the radical listening philosophy is in these everyday moments, we can really start to feel.

supported, resilient, more connected instead of these one-offs. know, a couple times a year or once a month or once a week, whenever we do it. This is life right now, right here every day.

Christian (33:32.499)
Yeah, you’re right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (33:32.56)
Yeah, absolutely. Every conversation you have is an opportunity to connect. Even across political divides, distraction from phones, different generations, all the things that might naturally divide us, you can connect around. And if I could just add to that, one thing that I think is central to this, one of the six skills we talk about is acceptance. And I actually believe personally that acceptance is the hardest of the skills.

I think you can learn to ask a good question pretty easily. To ask you to just accept is a lot tougher because we all have values and judgments and just our own stuff going on. And acceptance just means sort of accepting what is. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with it. It doesn’t mean you have to enjoy it or like it. It’s just sort of the acknowledgement that that is the situation. And I’ll give you a quick non-political example of this.

When I was a parent of less than teenagers, so smaller children, I did what I think a lot of parents do, which is not accept their emotional state. If they were sad, angry, frustrated or bored, I didn’t want that to be the case. So I would do whatever I could to get them out of that. So this even was when I started having a teenager, my son was frustrated.

Kimberly Snyder (34:54.861)
Right?

Robert Biswas-Diener (35:01.788)
I’d be like, oh, don’t worry. And I try and reassure him, don’t worry, because we’ll do something fun tomorrow night. we’ll, it’ll be, it’ll be better because this weekend is good. you’re, what you’re really doing is saying, I don’t accept the emotional state you have of frustration. It’s not, it’s not convenient for me. Emotions are a little contagious. I don’t like having someone frustrated in the room. I wish you weren’t feeling like that. And that’s both teaching him about

Kimberly Snyder (35:07.042)
Wait.

Robert Biswas-Diener (35:28.836)
which emotions are good and bad and how to tolerate them, but also kind of dismissing his experience. And once I started thinking about this and trying to accept it more, I would start saying things like, yeah, you’re frustrated. I think that’s entirely the appropriate response to the circumstances you’re in, because the circumstances you’re in are frustrating. And I wouldn’t try and change it or talk him out of it or reassure him. And I would myself also have to accept it.

Kimberly Snyder (35:34.838)
Mmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (35:58.212)
And of course he would say things like, I hate having a psychologist for a father. But beyond that, I think what it did is it allowed him to ultimately start accepting the full range of emotions himself without thinking we need to change everything bad into something good.

Kimberly Snyder (36:17.55)
Well, can I ask you a question, both of you, because you are experts in this field. So we want to radically listen, but where’s the line, and we do want to accept, but where’s the line if someone is reinforcing their own stories and their own narrative and sort of keeping themselves in a trauma loop. So I know someone who’s been in therapy for 20 years and still holds on to the same story.

you know, about her childhood, that she wasn’t the favorite and all these things have happened. And so I want to listen, but at the same time, it’s like, they’re kind of just buying their own BS. And I know there’s an interpretation there, right? But it’s the same like victim mentality. So what do we do?

Robert Biswas-Diener (37:06.076)
I mean, I think it’s really sticky. I two things are involved there. One is just accepting their perspective. They’re a full grown adult with decades of life experience, a right to their own perceptions, memories, thoughts, and just accepting that that’s the case. Like I acknowledge that that is your experience and you have a right to that experience. so yes, now internally, I don’t have to agree with that.

Kimberly Snyder (37:25.517)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (37:29.314)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (37:35.064)
as the only way to tell the story, as the interpretation. And I think this all the time. For example, I personally don’t believe that people are stuck. Sometimes people just say I’m stuck. And what they mean is I’m frustrated with my current rate of progress and I get that. And I’m like, what you’re having is an emotional experience of frustration, but I don’t view it as stuck. Like even in this moment, you’re probably growing and changing. And so,

Kimberly Snyder (37:47.467)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (38:04.092)
privately when I hear people say that I want to acknowledge their frustration, but also I kind of feel like Yeah, but you kind of are moving forward So then I go to what’s my role here is my role to validate them is my role to listen to them and this gets back to the intentions of radical listening Am I here to change them? Am I here to fix them? What is my intention as the listener?

Kimberly Snyder (38:16.077)
Mm.

Christian (38:27.955)
Hmm. Yeah. And Kimberly, I’d like to add for your listeners as well. So it’s great because they are listeners, so they’re listening. And I’m guessing that those listening to this part of it is listening to be entertained, listening to learn. So I just want to highlight again, what Robert was saying about intention. So that’s the big thing that we’re sharing is that we can be intentional. And if you’re listening to this podcast,

Kimberly Snyder (38:28.076)
Mm-hmm.

Christian (38:58.301)
you are being intentional. You’re saying, I’m gonna listen to take away a few nuggets, to learn something. So we’re doing it already. And the beauty of intention is it draws our attention to something. So it’s possible also to have an intention of validating someone, of appreciating someone. And when we just turn the intention towards, okay, I’m just gonna…

allocate five minutes to listen to someone in a way that’s validating, we automatically start looking for things to validate and appreciate about people. So I just want to kind of reiterate this idea that we wanted to share something really simple. You don’t actually need to go on a course to do radical listening. You don’t even need to do any training programs. So my invitation is for people just to experiment with

going into a conversation with a clear intention of something and then seeing what the impact is on others. And again, I really think that you can tell that it’s having an impact if you feel that connection strengthening. And if we can just match how a person wants to be listened to with the way we’re listening, I think it can have a really powerful impact.

Kimberly Snyder (40:00.738)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (40:19.616)
I do too. feel like I’ve heard about intention a lot when it comes into, know, Tony Robbins talks about your state when you go into a meeting or your intention for when you’re speaking, but you don’t, I’ve never really heard it spoken of in terms of listening. So it’s quite, it’s a radical, radical listening.

Christian (40:35.347)
Yeah.

Robert Biswas-Diener (40:35.352)
Thank

Robert Biswas-Diener (40:39.132)
I mean.

Christian (40:41.215)
I want to say something else radical, you don’t mind. Sorry, Robert. I want to say something else radical. Again, for your listeners is another question. And this is maybe a challenging question is what do you need as the listener? What do you need so that you can provide that attention to others? So this is a request from us as the authors of this book, but also as other human beings like yourselves.

Just to say, please make sure to look after yourselves because in order to give that full attention to others, we need to have our own needs met. So a lot of people who are really helpful, who want to make the world a better place, they’re giving everything. They’re out there doing the work all the time. They’re kind of running out. So I guess it’s just a reflection that

in order to give this kind of full attention to others to make sure that you’re getting what you need as well.

Kimberly Snyder (41:42.99)
Mmm, beautiful.

Robert Biswas-Diener (41:45.5)
That’s amazing, Christian. Yeah, but to be a great listener, you have a mandate to care for yourself and to promote your own wellbeing because that’s the foundation then of listening to others, connecting with others and helping others.

Kimberly Snyder (42:04.28)
I think when you also say Christian that it is simple and you don’t have to take lots of courses, but it’s this whole reframe on listening, is radical listening is beyond active listening. And then I also like in the book, like you break it up so it’s easy to understand, you know, for us to maybe focus on one of these skills, the internal ones, noticing, quieting, accepting, which you mentioned Robert, and then the external skills, acknowledging

questioning and interjecting. And then I imagine as you learn about these skills, there’s a level of our own intuition that’s needed to apply the skills as necessary.

Robert Biswas-Diener (42:46.414)
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things about any tool is do you know how to use the tool? But more importantly, do you know when to use it? Do you know when to pick it up and when to put it down? And one of the things that a book like ours or any book does is it can teach you how to use the tool, but it really can’t teach you when to pick it up and when to put it down. That’s what your intuition is about. Just, you know, learning like this seems like a good time to offer an acknowledgement. This seems like a good time for a follow-up.

Christian (42:46.761)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (42:58.093)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (43:15.878)
question and that’s where you’re going to bring your own self and your own relational acumen to the table.

Kimberly Snyder (43:24.002)
Has it been your experience that as someone learns radical listening for themselves and they start bringing it into their home sphere, their work sphere, it automatically opens up the space for people around them to maybe be open to more radical listening? Because it seems like it would.

Christian (43:44.049)
Yeah, think, yes, there’s two things, Kimberly, that it leads to, I think. One is the experience of being listened to feels good. In the busy, distracted world we’re in, it feels like a gift. If somebody listens to us even for five minutes, you can think, wow, that felt good. So I think there’s that appreciation of, maybe I’ll give that gift to somebody else as well.

Kimberly Snyder (43:55.34)
He does.

Christian (44:13.577)
But the other one, Kimberly, we don’t really delve into it in the book, but I think it opens up the listening to oneself. know, some of the skills, like the skill of quieting, there’s two parts to quieting. One is to make sure that you’re creating the best possible environment for listening to others. So that’s to do with external, you know, turning off your mobile phone, turning off everything that beeps. But the other part of quieting is quieting our mind.

Kimberly Snyder (44:21.612)
Mm.

Christian (44:41.501)
And, you know, people could do that through mindfulness practice or any other practice that allows you to, you know, just be aware of your self talk. And my hope is that in our focus on I’m going to be better at listening to others and listening to what it is they need, we become better at doing that for ourselves.

Kimberly Snyder (45:02.742)
I love that. when I read this section of your book where it was talking about, sometimes we listen and our pattern, our tendency may be to automatically compare or compete or say, you I did it this way. When we have this intention to listen, we can start to drop those thought patterns or at least not follow them so much. And there’s so much benefit in our own presence.

Robert Biswas-Diener (45:28.068)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, those two examples you gave are great because they’re so well-intentioned. Someone says, I went to Italy last summer. And you say, I went to Italy last summer, too. That’s very well-intentioned. You’re trying to connect with them. It runs the risk of distracting from the story they were telling. Like, now we’re not talking about you and your trip. Now we’re going to talk about me and my trip. It’s not inherently a terrible thing to do, but it does.

Kimberly Snyder (45:28.622)
Because now we’re aware of the patterns in the first place.

Kimberly Snyder (45:48.418)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (45:57.016)
have some potential downsides. And then it’s cousin that if that’s comparing is contrasting and contrasting is the person says, I’m so tired. I only got five hours of sleep. You’re like five hours of sleep. I only got three hours of sleep. Right. And again, you’re kind of trying to connect with them. It’s well intentioned. You’re saying I also didn’t get much sleep, but it can come across as dismissive. Like you don’t know the

Kimberly Snyder (46:12.334)
my gosh.

Kimberly Snyder (46:23.982)
It does.

Robert Biswas-Diener (46:25.04)
The about being tired, I’m way more tired than you are. Even though you’re trying to find common ground.

Christian (46:27.615)
Thank

Kimberly Snyder (46:28.162)
Yeah.

Yes, it really feels like that. And it feels like a lot of conversations. I don’t know, you know, what it is if because of the world of social media, everybody sort of their own hero and their own narrative, where there’s so much self reference.

Christian (46:48.095)
I love that language, Kimberly. I think radical listening is making sure that the person you’re listening to is the hero. That’s a great way of… It’s creating an audience for them and making them feel like that. So the idea is we can listen to people in a way that makes them feel amazing about themselves. And we all have the ability to do that. And yeah, I think it’s exciting to think that more people can…

Robert Biswas-Diener (46:49.177)
Absolutely.

Kimberly Snyder (46:58.549)
Yeah.

Christian (47:17.363)
do that in a relatively simple way. And if now is not the time for that, when is the time? So again, my invitation is please try it out. Experiment with it. Ask people questions, and then just listen to their answers and just see the impact that it can have.

Robert Biswas-Diener (47:24.144)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (47:40.024)
So if someone’s listening to this saying, how do I actually start to learn radical listening? How would you suggest they move towards some mastery of these skills, go through the whole book, or sort of focus on one skill at a time?

Christian (47:40.831)
Thank

Christian (47:55.711)
Well, I love that question as well, Kimberly. And I just want to reiterate what a great listener you are because one of the things I said already is don’t look like you’re interested, be interested, right? So that’s one thing everybody can start doing now. And if somebody’s saying to me, but maybe I’m not really interested in what they’re talking about, they’re talking about motorcycles and I don’t care about motorcycles. I would say be interested in the human being, be interested. wonder.

about the person so we can always be interested. So I would say be interested. I also think, you know, if you get the book, there’s some of these skills you do really well already. So I would say start with those, right? So you’re probably already good at, you know, interjecting, for example, just manage those kind of hone that skill. If you’re really good at just sitting back and listening, great. If you’re good at asking questions,

So I would say start with what you’re already good at and everybody’s already gonna be good at quite a few of these and then start developing the others. But there’s nothing that beats the intention of I want to listen to you in a way that makes you feel valued. If you go in with that intention, I would say you’re naturally gonna start to do some of the things we talked

Robert Biswas-Diener (49:18.414)
I’ll just add real quickly, there’s, yeah, real quickly, there’s something that’s not in the book that I’ll just add that’s kind of just a broad take home for people, which is often in a conversation or especially in an argument, we might say, but you’re not listening to me. And we almost never say the alternative, but you’re listening to me. And I would encourage people to start saying that.

Kimberly Snyder (49:18.466)
You know, just listening and, sorry, go ahead, Robert. There was a delay. Go ahead.

Christian (49:18.695)
Yeah.

Robert Biswas-Diener (49:47.876)
When listening is going well, start letting the other person know, wow, you’re listening to me. It’s happening right now, thank you.

Kimberly Snyder (49:53.208)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (49:58.574)
Hmm. You know, I have to say that as I have gone on this journey and explored and studied so much and talked to so many researchers, I wouldn’t have used the word trauma before. know, Bessel van der Kolk says 75 % of Americans have some form of trauma. And I can say for me, it was not feeling seen and heard as a child in the way I might have liked. And so this work that you’re doing,

I know as researchers and there’s this, you know, very researched part of it, but what it feels like to me is really an act of love. You know, it’s getting out of the head, like all these mental ideas and opinions and like, I want this or this way, and just being so loving that you can be with another human and you can bring love so much into these interactions. And that’s why it feels so powerful.

Because we’re talking about love here, essentially, even though I don’t think you guys use that word in the book. But that’s what it feels like to me, this whole conversation. feel my heart, I can feel this palpable power that comes with love when you’re not forcing, you you guys talk about how this is so important for navigating conflicts and how much we can bridge from a loving place.

Robert Biswas-Diener (51:20.526)
I think that’s absolutely right. And I feel the same thing. think the conversational act when it goes well, when it’s aligned and connected is itself an act of love.

Christian (51:20.787)
Thank you.

Christian (51:31.655)
Yeah, Kimberly, it’s just if you don’t see the word in our book, it’s just because we didn’t have the courage to use that word. But again, I’m sorry to keep going on about this. This is another example of your radical listening, because you have really seen what’s at the heart of the book. And it is it would require courage for me to use that word. The word I use instead, which is less challenging for me, is care. So I do think.

Kimberly Snyder (51:57.742)
Bye.

Christian (51:59.859)
that one of the things we want to demonstrate is I care about you. And if we can convince the other person of that, that really is the start of connection. So yeah, with more courage, yes, it’s really about listening as an act of love. I even love the idea of listening is the intervention itself. It’s not like to do something else, that the listening is a way of acknowledging, appreciating.

Kimberly Snyder (52:22.958)
Mmm.

Christian (52:29.649)
showing care for another human being.

Kimberly Snyder (52:29.795)
Yeah.

Well, you might not have used that word, but just in speaking to you, how loving you are as parents with your son, with your children, me obviously informed the work so much. So whatever the actual words you’re using, there’s a lot of love energy behind. And I’d to share with you guys this quick story about love and motorcycles, Christian has a motorcycle.

Christian (52:55.135)
You’re right.

Kimberly Snyder (52:57.326)
Like, just, listen, this radical listening, and I have to say we have two young children and my husband owned his motorcycle before we were married. And I’m sorry, Christian, I’m not a fan because my dad had gotten into really big motorcycle accidents. And I say, hey, you you’re dead, time to sell the motorcycle. And so he almost did, but very, very begrudgingly. So I listened to him and he was like, listen, I don’t ride very much.

but he just likes having the bike. And he said, it makes me feel free. And so I really radically listened, even though my, I so much fear Christian, I said, you know, I don’t want you to get an accident like da, da, da, but I said, okay, like I really, you can’t force this, you know, keep the bike. I get it. So anyways, that’s my little story, which then he felt so listened to.

And then I felt like we didn’t disconnect because it would have felt awful if he felt like I was forcing him to give up the motorcycle.

Christian (53:58.399)
That’s the perfect example of love and care. And, you know, especially when people use words like freedom, you know, these are deep, deep values. And for, you know, for you to see that, that that’s an important value. And I’ve used similar arguments. I have to be honest with you. I’ve said, look, I just want it parked in the garage as long as it’s the idea of it is amazing.

Kimberly Snyder (54:06.83)
Yeah.

Christian (54:24.795)
I don’t know what your partner rides but if he rides a Harley Davidson the good thing with Harley Davidson’s is you don’t have to ride them fast. Is it a Harley? I don’t know. a BMW as well. Depends what type of BMW it is I guess. But yeah I have a BMW motorcycle as well so I hope I get a chance to ride with him someday.

Kimberly Snyder (54:33.878)
No, it’s a BMW.

Christian (54:51.539)
We’re gonna be in California for the book launch, aren’t we, Robert? We’re gonna be in San Francisco.

Kimberly Snyder (54:56.398)
How amazing. Well, are you having any, this is a perfect time to mention any book events that you both are having or as everyone is listening to this podcast right now, the book is available wherever books are sold. I assume we could say that.

Robert Biswas-Diener (55:12.378)
Yeah, absolutely. We are going to have some LinkedIn events. So if you connect with us through LinkedIn, those will be virtual events, which might be convenient for people. And then we’ll be doing different speaking gigs around the world. But you would have to live in a particular location for those.

Christian (55:12.755)
Yeah, and we’re, we’re go ahead, Robert.

Christian (55:36.541)
Yeah, and can I say my website is called www.coachonamotorcycle.com for all the motorcycle fans out there. And I do keep people abreast of where I’m going to be and what I’ll be doing. And the LinkedIn page is called Radical Listening Fan Club. So if anybody’s interested in that, you can find us on there. We will be doing some online events as well.

Kimberly Snyder (56:06.552)
Perfect, so we will link to those direct links on our show notes at mysaluna.com, as well as direct links to buy the book, which again is called Radical Listening, the Art of True Connection. Thank you guys so much for sharing your hearts, this incredibly powerful, important skill, active love in today’s world. Is there anything else that you wanna share that we didn’t cover?

Christian (56:06.814)
Okay.

Kimberly Snyder (56:34.622)
And again, everything will be listed, loves on the website. So you can just head over there and click and check out all the upcoming events if you can make them and definitely get the book.

Robert Biswas-Diener (56:46.076)
I’m just excited for your listeners to engage with this, experiment with it, to see what works for them, ditch what doesn’t work for them, and hopefully it leads to more connection.

Kimberly Snyder (56:59.182)
beautiful

Christian (56:59.263)
Kimberly, I’m grateful for the loving way that you host the podcast. yeah, it’s just, you know, for me, the way you interacted with us has allowed us really to connect in a meaningful way. And I hope the listeners feel that sense of connection as well. mean, I’ve only met you, Kimberly, like less than an hour ago.

But a few of the things you’ve already said, I feel a real connection and you’ve been great at picking up the things that are valuable. We also talked about our personal backgrounds and what a wonderful way to connect. And I think if we have that intention of listening for what are the points of connection, we’ll find so many of them. And that’s what we meant about intention and attention. Because if I go into a conversation trying to pick out all the things that are different,

Kimberly Snyder (57:45.965)
Yeah.

Christian (57:55.369)
how we differ, I’m gonna find those as well. So I think just this idea of shifting our intention to what are the things that bring us closer together, it could really change things for us and for those around us.

Kimberly Snyder (57:58.403)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (58:09.752)
So beautiful, so powerful. Thank you both so much for coming on. Absolutely loved speaking with you both and I love the book. Once again, everyone’s called Radical Listening. Be sure to get your copy now. It’s gonna be so beneficial for you, your family, your loved ones. I got so much out of the book, so I can’t recommend it enough. And we’ll be back here Thursday as always for our next Q &A show. Till then, take great care, sending you so much love and see you back here soon.

Bye.