This week’s topic: Why Postpartum Care is Crucial for a Mother & Baby with Julia Kim
I am so excited for my guest this week to talk about a very important topic, postpartum. We have the lovely Julia Kim, who has over 15 years of experience in lawmaking, policy, communications, political campaigns. She lives outside DC and she is Washington, DC, where I went to college. So I know that area very well. She’s also the founder of Sanu, which is one of the first non clinical postpartum care stay facility in the United States. It’s program is anchored in evidence based care for the mother developed by a physician to help reduce stress and anxiety. Those of us mamas out there, myself included, did not have a lot of information about postpartum care.and the United States sadly has one of the lowest level of postpartum care in the world.
Topics Covered
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Postpartum Care
01:17 Personal Experience and Motivation
04:10 Importance of Postpartum Care
05:09 Journey into Postpartum Care
08:58 Lack of Information and Support
09:50 Lack of Physical Recovery Practices
11:35 South Korean Tradition of Postpartum Care
12:14 Comprehensive Postpartum Support
14:16 Importance of Rest and Nutrition
15:13 Partner Involvement in Postpartum Care
19:23 Long-Term Effects of Postpartum Period
20:45 Support for Birth Trauma
23:50 Comparison with Postpartum Care in Korea
26:51 Focus on Partner Inclusion and Nutrition
28:19 Importance of Physical Touch and Caregiver Support
29:13 Insurance Coverage for Postpartum Care
31:09 Making Postpartum Care More Accessible
32:27 Options for Care Beyond Overnight Stays
35:29 Virtual Support and Online Classes
36:23 Supporting Mothers’ Mental Health
37:13 Taking Shifts for Sleep and Rest
39:18 Building Confidence in Co-Caregivers
41:00 Long-Term Effects of Postpartum Period
44:27 Returning to Work After Postpartum
46:01 Importance of Support and Communication
49:26 Conclusion and Contact Information
About Julia Kim
Julia Kim is the founder of Sanu, the first non-clinical postpartum care stay facility in the country that provides a proprietary, evidence-based and partner-inclusive mother-centered care framework, developed by a physician to maximize a mothers postpartum period, reduce stress and anxiety that often contribute to postpartum depression during the physically and mentally demanding “fourth trimester.”
Julia has over 15 years of experience in lawmaking, policy, communications, and political campaigns. Julia was honored to serve as the national Co-Chair for Korean Americans for the Biden administration.
Julia earned her MBA at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business (MSB). Julia is a second generation Korean American and resides in Virginia with her husband and two sons.
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How to Move Through and Manage the Shifts during Pregnancy and Postpartum [Episode #874]
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Transcript:
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
Kimberly Snyder (00:01.216)
Hi, loves, welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for my guest this week to talk about a very important topic, postpartum. We have the lovely Julia Kim, who has over 15 years of experience in lawmaking, policy, communications, political campaigns. She lives outside DC and she is Washington, DC, where I went to college. So I know that area very well. She’s also the founder of Sanu which is the first non -clinical postpartum care stay facility in the US, which is based on evidence -based mother care. And it’s been developed by a physician to help reduce stress and anxiety. Those of us mamas out there, myself included, did not have a lot of information about postpartum care. I had no idea what was, you know, really what was going on rather than a little bit of information from my midwife. So.
This is a very big topic that’s important for all of us. We all know that there is a rising increase in postpartum depression. There is a lot of vulnerability in the mother after she gives birth, which we’ll talk about today. So Julia, thank you so much for being here with us.
Julia Kim (01:17.55)
Thank you. Hey, Kimberly. This is very exciting. I do want to make one correction though. I don’t think we were the first, but we were among the first. Yeah. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (01:25.216)
Got it amongst the first. Thank you so much for the technicality, which is important these days. And I know that you are also a boy mom, right? You have two sons. My children are actually my one son turned eight. I was gonna say, I’m so used to saying three and seven, three and eight. How old are your children?
Julia Kim (01:29.838)
I’m going to go ahead and close the video.
Julia Kim (01:45.998)
So my oldest is six and my youngest is nine months.
Kimberly Snyder (01:50.112)
Oh my gosh, you are in postpartum care right now in the extended part. This is amazing. So I always felt really creative during my pregnancies. And of course there’s time for rest and rejuvenation and respecting those sacred periods. But it sounds like you’re also creating in these periods in a way that feels good to you because that sacral chakra, everything is.
Julia Kim (01:52.334)
Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (02:16.64)
I had all these creative ideas come up while I was pregnant and afterwards.
Julia Kim (02:21.038)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I will tell you postpartum has not been easy. And that’s, you know, part of why I took this journey in the first place. But I totally understand that, you know, creative energy and, you know, especially during my first pregnancy, I felt amazing. And I was happy all the time. And I was blessed not to have, you know, a lot of nausea and some of those other symptoms. Like all of my hardships came after childbirth. So.
Kimberly Snyder (02:39.806)
Mmm.
Julia Kim (02:50.924)
Yeah, it’s been a time.
Kimberly Snyder (02:51.264)
What kind of hardships did you personally experience?
Julia Kim (02:56.91)
Yeah, so after the birth of both of my boys, I had something called Deemer. And I guess a simple explanation is depression slash anxiety that’s related to breastfeeding. Yeah, and it’s not very well known, not talked about really, but it made breastfeeding very difficult. And on top of that, I had
Kimberly Snyder (03:13.6)
Oh.
Julia Kim (03:23.662)
really terrible depression and anxiety after the birth of my second. And, you know, the first of course is always hard. You know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t have younger siblings to take care of, you know, to learn those things or like an older sister or brother who had children. And, you know, I just, I wasn’t ready in those ways. And so it was difficult.
Kimberly Snyder (03:43.84)
Whoa. So I’m so excited that we’re bringing this topic to the forefront because we did the wellness trends report and one of them was trying to bring more of the postpartum care and just the topic to the forefront, which has largely been ignored as we know. Before we dive deeper, I’m waving at you. I’m waving at Julia right now. If you’re not aware, our podcast is also on video.
You can head over to the YouTube channel if you love to listen, as always, on Apple, Spotify, while you’re walking your dog or driving to your job in the morning. We are still here, of course. But also, we will be linking to Julia’s site, her information, as well as other podcasts I think you would enjoy, articles, meditations, recipes, and more on our website, mysaluna .com. So, Julia, this is how, so besides your, was your personal experience,
sort of your momentum to get to start your wellness center, Sanu, and to get into this. Because I know for me, a lot of people ask, well, why did you get into wellness? And I said, well, for me, first I wanted to heal myself. I had a lot of anxiety. I had a lot of bloating. I didn’t sleep. I had a lot of digestive issues. So that’s sort of the natural pathway in. And then you dive deeper and you see, wow, a lot of people have similar issues. Can you share a little bit about your journey into this particular area?
Julia Kim (05:09.902)
Yeah, so I mean, I’m very type A. So I tried to go around and even interview pediatricians. I mean, they were having none of it, but I did go around and I think I visited like eight different offices. I took the classes, I read all the books. And so, you know, I was like, I’m as prepared as I possibly can be. And I went into the labor and delivery process feeling, you know, pretty good. And
you know, as soon as I had my baby and those nurses left the room and they just leave the baby with you. I’m like, oh my gosh, you know, what is happening? Why are you just leaving? What do I do with the baby? Like I thought there was, you know, some sort of educational piece that, you know, they would say, okay, you know, Wally, honey, you want to do this? You just had your baby do this, do that, you know, do this with him, do this with yourself. There was absolutely nothing. And I just remember.
Being in that room, the recovery room, just shivering, it suddenly got super cold and I thought, oh my gosh, I am in a world of trouble. So that’s what kind of kicked off my thinking about, you know, how can we serve mothers better during this time? And the experience that I had in the postpartum period and beyond with both of my kids really validated that, you know, moving towards a solution.
doing something that’s really mother centered, but partner inclusive, because I have to mention that I have an incredibly supportive partner and they really should be included in a lot of the educational and the healing and just the hands -on training. But what can we do to serve these new parents? And I look towards what we were doing in South Korea, that’s where parents are from. And South Korea, they’re…
Kimberly Snyder (06:58.034)
Mmm.
Julia Kim (07:02.958)
postpartum care is just unparalleled. And in fact, throughout all of East Asia and now into Southeast Asia, Australia, Israel, Dubai, the UAE, I think there’s one in France and Canada. So it’s becoming a global phenomenon of these specialized postpartum care centers that are out of the home. Yeah, and I thought, okay, I don’t wanna be home and entertaining.
Kimberly Snyder (07:25.854)
Mmm!
Julia Kim (07:31.822)
my mom and mother -in -law and everybody who wants to come and sip and see the baby and touch the baby and kiss the baby. And I’m like cutting fruit up, you know, it’s like very Asian, like cutting fruit up and hosting my in -laws and friends. And I’m like, I want none of that. And it’s not conducive for recovery. And so there’s a lot of brainstorming, looking towards other countries and what’s already being done and really adapting those things to.
fit an American audience.
Kimberly Snyder (08:02.304)
Wow, you know that whole entertaining thing. So I’m half Filipina, so I have Asian blood in me as well. And it’s really interesting because my second son was born during COVID. And so in a way, it simplified things because there wasn’t a lot of that activity. But in another way, there was more of that isolation where I didn’t have the mom circles and the things that I had with my first son. So let’s get a little bit.
Julia Kim (08:07.854)
Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (08:28.896)
more specific when we’re talking about postpartum care, Julia, right? Because first it’s pregnancy, it’s like what’s mom eating, prenatal yoga, like all these things. And then the baby comes out and then there’s a lot of shift of focus to the baby. How much is, you know, baby, you know, soiling the diapers and how’s baby sleeping and how much, you know, this and that with baby. And then it really gets pulled away from the mother. Here in our community, we talk about four cornerstones, food,
body, emotional well -being, and spiritual growth. So first of all, which of these do you think is, I mean, probably all of them, but which are the ones that you see in the United States versus other countries are the most lacking in terms of postpartum care where there isn’t as much information, like you said, the education piece, or maybe it’s all of them in a way, just sort of what I believe.
Julia Kim (09:22.222)
Yeah. Yeah, I think, yes, you hit the nail on the head. It really is all of them in particular, the emotional, mental, and also the physical. I mean, I think we tend to forget that, you know, childbirth is not easy. And when you come out of labor and delivery, women are in a lot of pain. And so there’s that just physical recovery aspect that we don’t really talk about that much.
Kimberly Snyder (09:44.042)
Yes.
Julia Kim (09:50.318)
And, you there’s anxiety, exhaustion, apprehension and stress about breastfeeding and hormonal changes as well, body dysmorphia. And so there’s just a lot that we are not tackling well enough that other countries are kind of leading the way in the form of better support. And, you know, research really suggests that the more that we do for the child,
I’m sorry, the more that we do for the mother, the more we do for the child and the entire family. And so I think, you know, just from all aspects, we have to do better. And I will tell you that I think a lot of people are surprised to know that suicide is the number one cause of death for postpartum women. I mean, can you even believe it? I mean, I know you’re familiar with this. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (10:39.008)
Oh my God, it’s got goosebumps. Yes, that was something that I was reading about and it’s not as uncommon as we think, right? It’s, you know, a statistic that’s out there. And so, you know, as a mom, my heart just, oh, that’s a big one to take in, right? So us as a society, as a collective, has to really consider what is going on in our process here. So as a student of Arju Veda,
I had always learned because RU -Veda goes into so much around postpartum, how vulnerable our bodies are, right? They say that if we don’t take care of our bodies in those first 40 days, we can be more susceptible for two years to, you know, immune, compromised immunity, our bones, osteoporosis, many things. And I was reading that you talk about this, the South Korean tradition. I don’t know if I’m saying this right. Chimchili, how do you say that? Chimchili.
Julia Kim (11:35.182)
So that literally translates to three seven days meaning basically 21 days. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (11:36.992)
I’m very off.
Kimberly Snyder (11:44.48)
And so when we’re talking about support, what does that look like exactly, right? Is it, we’re taking classes, is that we have someone helping us to cook meals or teach us what to eat, or we’re in a partnership with other women. Like what, in your opinion, as an expert on this Julia, what is it that’s really lacking here? Because if you know, our mamas who’s listening to this and saying, well, I had a meal train and I read a couple of books and my mother -in helped me clean, was my postpartum care?
good, right? Because sometimes we’re confused about what is it, what does it really mean when we’re getting the support? What does it look like? Which is a range, of course, but.
Julia Kim (12:15.534)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (12:21.262)
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, all of those things are great and, you know, we have a lot of postpartum care deserts across the country. So really take hold of whatever you can and do those things. You know, meal trains, all of those things are really great. However, it’s my opinion that in order to have a really full, comprehensive postpartum care experience, you really need to have mother at the center. And, you know, like I said before,
We want to be mother -centered but partner -inclusive. But around the mother, we really want evidence -based physical recovery practices. And I only say that because there is a lot of science out there that says, hey, you know, these things work and these things are nice to have for comfort, but let’s really focus on, you know, the sit spabs that have been shown to work. Let’s really focus on…
Kimberly Snyder (13:12.992)
Hmm.
Julia Kim (13:13.848)
the foot baths and the massages and the rest that are seen to work. Whereas sometimes what’s funny is my mom, she’s like, don’t drink cold water when you’re postpartum. And that’s not really as rooted in evidence of today. So there are some things that we stripped out of our care, but we really wanna focus on the evidence -based physical recovery practices. We also really wanna focus on the mental health.
and emotional support that we’re so lacking. We were just talking about that. We want to go beyond just a simple emotional assessment like, hey, are you feeling sad or blue today? You know, that’s not what I mean. We need to go deeper and we need to go deeper earlier than the six week visit. And then we want to get into mother and baby care. So what does that look like? Well, what do we know from evidence is that rest is so important. And so we want to make sure that you’re being cared for by professional caregivers.
who are allowing you to rest. So that may mean taking care of the baby for you. That means getting you out of the home so you don’t have those kinds of responsibilities, like picking up after your kids or your dog or doing the laundry or cutting up the fruit, getting you out of the home, getting sleep during the night and during the day. And as you mentioned as well, the nutrition piece.
Kimberly Snyder (14:16.606)
Mmm.
Julia Kim (14:36.654)
so important, like for example, let’s have you eating iron rich foods to really get you to address the depletion of iron that you go through during childbirth. Let’s get you the hands on training so that we can really build and internalize routine self care and baby care habits. And then the partner piece to get them involved because really.
your partner should be your biggest champion and your main caregiver during that time. Not everyone has family and friends around who will fulfill that role, so let’s get your partner involved.
Kimberly Snyder (15:13.92)
And also many people don’t have partners, right? So I think about, I have two friends that live locally and they’re single moms by choice. So these centers would also be very powerful because they’re able to focus on their care and have support, you know, with or without a partner. We all need as much support as we can get in that information. And I love Julia. You know, some of the practices are ancient. They’re also evidence -based like the massage you mentioned, which is a key part of our Uveda, the post –
Julia Kim (15:22.528)
Mm -hmm.
Kimberly Snyder (15:43.52)
part of the Abhyanga massage, which feels really good, right? So intuitively we know it’s soothing to the nervous system. And then it’s also something that’s easy to skip. We could say, oh, well, you know, I should just focus on baby. But when there’s evidence, sometimes it helps the discerning mind to see, no, this is actually really important. This is part of my emotional wellbeing. This is part of my relaxation. This is part of a deep rest and rejuvenation, which is essential for recovery.
Julia Kim (16:12.018)
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when I say partner, you know, it could be anybody, but we really encourage you to try to have a support person. So, you know, a friend, a postpartum care center like ours, somebody who can, you know, be with you and help you through this time. And it could be virtually just somebody to…
provide some support in any way. It could be emotional, it could be physical, it could be a number of things. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (16:41.936)
Yes.
Kimberly Snyder (16:47.264)
Yes, thank you for clarifying that. So you said something earlier about how important it is to nourish the mother and nurture the mother in all these ways, because then you nourish the child. And one of the things is that early on, this can really affect babies emotional well -being and babies health, right? Because they’re absorbing so much energy from the mother. So let’s say the mother is distraught, she’s worn down, she’s just not in her fullness. It has a direct effect on babies well -being.
Right? So it’s take this approach of always here versus this balance, like the holistic of, you know, connection between the mother and the baby. Can you speak a little bit of how you’ve seen that shift change in your, you know, at your center in your work, how when we start to fill the mother back up, baby thrives.
Julia Kim (17:33.342)
Yeah, that is such a good point. And, you know, I think, well, there’s research out there that really indicates that, you know, untreated maternal postpartum issues, or, you know, when the mother isn’t well, that can really have long term effects on children, whether that be, you know, like behavioral problems, developmental delays, and
Kimberly Snyder (17:57.694)
Mmm.
Julia Kim (17:59.598)
it can affect bonding early on. So, you know, one of the very first things that we really say is so crucial after childbirth is the mother -child bonding process. It’s critical for emotional development to even help to regulate the hormones and body temperature. So, you know, physical, physiological, emotional, like it’s so important. And when the mother is not cared for, if there’s or if there’s something just not right,
it can have really devastating effects. And, you know, I’m always brought back to the fact that the body remembers trauma, you know, as, yeah, as we age, it’s not like, oh, that’s a distant memory. We can kind of move past it, but, you know, we hold on to things even without our knowing. And it can have, you know, traumatic events or, you know, just not being cared for in the right way can have long lasting effects on us and our children.
Kimberly Snyder (18:35.218)
Yes.
Kimberly Snyder (18:56.)
It’s so true. I love that the book, The Body Keeps the Score. I don’t know if you read that book, but also how drama is stored literally in our nervous system, right? It goes into the amygdala. And so we get more, we live a more triggered, reactive life and then things can come up. And we’re not in our full radiance, free and flowing and flexible through life. So we really do need to address that and process things and let things come up.
there’s so much in here and it makes me, I can’t help but think about my own postpartum periods. And so this is not for anyone to feel badly and say, oh, well, I didn’t do a lot of that when I was, you know, when I was in my postpartum period, because I think everything evolves and we can share with others and we can share experiences and we can create healing. You know, my first son is now eight, even now I think about it, or my younger son is three, right? So the postpartum period isn’t just
the few days afterwards. This is something we can continue to heal and shed light on for the long term.
Julia Kim (19:59.566)
Right. Yeah. I mean, we talk a lot about the fourth trimester, which is, you the first three months after childbirth, but really that first year is critical. And I think I recently read something that said, um, you know, women are still feeling the effects of childbirth and, and, you know, the postpartum period up to six or seven years after childbirth. So, I mean, that is a long period of time. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (20:16.352)
Yes. Well, what about, can we talk about birth trauma for a moment? Because I didn’t have the language to really call that out. But my first birth was, I would say now quite traumatic. I had a birth tub, I tried to have a home birth, I had a midwife and my water broke first, which happens in, I think a third of women or whatever. And then I labored at home for a day and then baby wasn’t coming out.
Julia Kim (20:43.342)
Hmm.
Kimberly Snyder (20:45.088)
Turns out baby’s head was huge, but then we went to the hospital and somehow this decision got made to give me pitocin, but no epidural. So now it was starting to move into these really strong contractions, pushed for four hours. I was exhausted. And then it was like, well, our last resort is C -section. So it was like 50 hours of exhaustion and not the plan. And there wasn’t great communication along the way. And then my midwife was still saying things, well, you could have a natural birth in the hospital.
Julia Kim (21:12.334)
Mm -hmm.
Kimberly Snyder (21:14.336)
take the pitocin. So I was very confused about everything that was going on. So what about support? Because the birth can be in and of itself a big thing for a woman to process. Can you share a little bit about some of the support that we need to kind of emotionally, physically, just the actual birth itself before we even get into, hey, I’m not feeling good, you know, besides that, which also happens.
Julia Kim (21:42.962)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I’m so sorry to hear that you have that sort of experience. You know, and I think a lot of the language around childbirth is that, yes, it’s hard, but by and large, it’s this beautiful process. But the thing is, you know, anything can happen during childbirth, and it’s really scary. And to have proper support is so important. And I will tell you that there are mental health therapists out there who specialize in…
Um, birth trauma. Um, I think there are techniques out there. Um, one of them, um, one of our partners uses, it’s called EMDR and I’m not an expert in this. Um, she’s an expert, but you know, there, there is help out there. Um, we just also had a client who unfortunately, um, is experiencing a loss of, of life for her child. Um, yes. No, um,
Kimberly Snyder (22:34.528)
Oh, was it like SIDS?
Julia Kim (22:39.98)
Baby was born stillborn. It was, you know, stillborn. And so, yeah. And so, you know, we are helping this parenting team. It’s a mother and her partner. We’re helping this parenting team get the resources they need to kind of deal with this. And so this is something that’s really top of mind for me. And I think, yeah, I mean, I know.
Kimberly Snyder (22:43.52)
Oh my god.
Kimberly Snyder (23:01.152)
Oh my gosh, I’m getting goosebumps. How common is that? How common is that? Because that’s something we also don’t hear about very much.
Julia Kim (23:11.522)
You know, to lose a child during pregnancy is actually pretty common, especially during the first trimester. And I think that’s why a lot of women will say, you know, I’m not, I’m going to hold off on telling everybody because really during the first three months of pregnancy, anything can happen. But, you know, I don’t know the specific statistics on how common it is for stillbirths. But I, what I do know is that among women of color, we are seeing really.
Kimberly Snyder (23:18.322)
Yes.
Julia Kim (23:38.104)
high rates, disproportionate rates of maternal mortality and morbidity here in the US. And so I think it’s more common than any of us even realize.
Kimberly Snyder (23:43.136)
Right.
Kimberly Snyder (23:50.528)
Wow, wow. Yeah, I mean, it’s just, there’s all these different aspects to consider. It just feels like a very vulnerable time. The whole postpartum, there’s this new life, there’s mama, there’s figuring out how to care for the baby and the mama. It’s sort of like coming back into this wholeness, right? Because it’s like her bodies have been stretched and shifted and changed. I remember feeling, I had so much acid reflux during my pregnancy.
Julia Kim (24:10.83)
Okay.
Kimberly Snyder (24:20.448)
Took a while for my digestion to come back. It’s like your organs have to settle back in to feel this sense of self. You know, Julia, you mentioned earlier about how it’s so much better in Korea, for instance, and then you mentioned these 21 days. Can you give us a little bit more specifics about what the practices are there, what it looks like, why it’s more comprehensive?
Julia Kim (24:39.394)
Yeah, so, you know, I’m not exactly sure what the genesis of the idea was, but in the late 90s, especially throughout the early 2000s, all of these postpartum care centers started popping up around Korea. There are hundreds upon hundreds of them. And like I said, you know, yeah, 800…
Kimberly Snyder (25:01.408)
Really?
Julia Kim (25:04.014)
Eight out of ten women go to these postpartum care centers and it’s so common that the hospital will say, you know, which one are you going to? You know, when you’re getting ready to check out, they’re basically expecting you to go to one of these things. There thousands in China. There are just, it’s just everywhere. People are inundated with postpartum care centers and…
You know, we really try to take the best practices of what they’re doing. And so what I mean by that is this just feeling of 24 seven supported care. So if you really need something or somebody they’re there. And I kind of liken that to, you know, when you are in the hospital after giving birth and you have that button next to your bed, that’s like, you know, call the nurse button. It’s kind of like that. You know that someone is there to answer your question. And I remember, you know,
Kimberly Snyder (25:46.768)
Yes.
Julia Kim (25:52.43)
pressing the button multiple times saying, I cannot get my baby swaddled in this darn cloth. I just can’t do it. He keeps like breaking free. I can’t do it. And so they’re there for the big things like, helping you to actually stand up and make your way to the bathroom because I couldn’t do that after childbirth, by the way. I couldn’t go to the bathroom by myself, but they’re also there to help swaddle your baby. And so that sort of really supported care for yourself and your child. Korea is just, you know,
They’re just bananas. It’s going really well. And they’re just now starting to, I think, really embrace the mental -emotional piece. One of the big differences is that partners, dads and partners and co -caregivers are not meant to stay with the mother and child in the postpartum recovery centers. That’s a big difference here with us.
is that we really believe again that partners need to be included and they need the help as well. And so we really want partners to come and stay. So that’s a big difference. But another big thing is, and I know this is something that you’ll appreciate is the focus on the nutrition, making sure they have the bone broth and the seaweed soup, plenty of fluids to make sure you’re really rehydrating and getting the breast milk flowing.
There’s also a focus on massage and all of our caregivers are trained in a special kind of Okutani breast massage, which evidence shows, there’s scientific evidence that shows that it can really increase breastfeeding success. So that’s something that we do on the daily. I mean, just like physical touch is important. And I think there might be a little bit of fear of touching the mother after birth. Oh, she’s, yes, she’s in a lot of pain, but you know, nothing beats.
Kimberly Snyder (27:28.744)
Hmm
Julia Kim (27:49.422)
physical touch from a supportive caregiver. It just feels really good. It can go a long way. And there’s this concept of a mother’s hands, like, omason, we call it in Korean. But it really just means the warm touch of a caregiver who’s like, you know, who, who wants to see you get better and wants to see you succeed. And it’s just comforting. And so, you know, all of those things, we want to make sure that mamas are feeling after childbirth.
Kimberly Snyder (27:50.706)
Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (28:10.61)
Hmmmm
Julia Kim (28:19.756)
and beyond.
Kimberly Snyder (28:21.056)
Of course, like, you know, for the long term, but also in that sacred period where she’s reaching out and changing the diapers and doing, you know, doing latching that she is also getting the touch. Now, switching for a moment, Julia, to the other part of your expertise of the policymaking. And, you know, I can’t help but consider eight out of 10 Korean women are having access to this.
And so many women here might be like, well, that sounds awesome, but it also sounds like maybe I can’t afford it or, you know, I’m relying on my neighbors to start a meal train. Is there shifting towards, you know, insurance companies or companies helping to provide this kind of care on a bigger scale? Or is this all sort of, you know, we had to plan for it and pay for it out of pocket, practically speaking.
Julia Kim (28:44.654)
Yeah, that
Julia Kim (29:13.558)
you know, the answer there is kind of mixed. So a couple of things there. A lot of, actually, I won’t say a lot, some services that postpartum care stays here in the US offer, those will be covered by insurance. So I’m talking about things like lactation consultation. I’m talking about the mental health therapy. Some insurers also cover things like massage and acupuncture. It really just depends on your coverage.
But the negative there is that not all insurance is the same and there isn’t universal access. And because of the lack of insurance coverage or any sort of public coverage for this kind of care, it is mostly out of pocket. And because we’re bringing so many services to the table, it’s not cheap. That is something that I get heartburn about. It’s something that keeps me up.
I’m always thinking about how can we make this kind of postpartum care more accessible? And right now it’s merely aspirationally attainable, right? But not because we postpartum care operators and founders are trying to make a huge profit. I mean, we’re really not. We’re really just trying to provide as many essential services as possible. And that is kind of, it’s expensive.
Kimberly Snyder (30:36.104)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (30:39.374)
But what I will say is that, you know, competition is good. So the more of us there are, you know, and I welcome it. Like every time, you know, someone’s like, Hey, can I talk to you about starting a postpartum care center? Or, you know, I learn about another place like this. Maybe it’s not exactly the same, but similar. You know, I’m always like, Oh my gosh, thank goodness. You know, because now, you know, maybe some of our partners or the hotels that we’re in, you know, they will have a little bit more leverage to.
you know, help bring the cost of things down. In fact, we just dropped our prices by nearly 20 % because we were able to, you know, better negotiate, because we were able to look at more innovative staffing of our caregivers. So we’re always thinking, how can we do this in a more accessible way? But unfortunately, there are some insurers out there like, you know, TRICARE, I hate to call.
Kimberly Snyder (31:20.446)
Mmm.
Julia Kim (31:36.014)
companies out by name, but Tricare, who serves our military, they explicitly state that they do not cover postpartum care stays. And I’m like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? And so I will tell you, every founder will probably say we are doing our utmost to find ways to make this more accessible. And I’m sorry that it’s not, but we will do our best and…
Kimberly Snyder (31:45.576)
Oh.
Julia Kim (32:02.734)
If we can get policy makers on board, if we can get insurance companies on board, it will really go a long way.
Kimberly Snyder (32:09.568)
Wow. Well, is there like a different ways in which we can work with the center if financial is an inhibitor? Like, can you take classes there but not stay? Is it mix and match or is it, or how does it work exactly? If people are interested.
Julia Kim (32:21.358)
Thanks.
Julia Kim (32:27.534)
Yeah, so that’s a great question. We have been open just for a few months now and we’ve really tried to focus on what provides the maximum, most efficient recovery possible. And so that to us was the overnight stays, which is really what makes the stay kind of expensive. But we are actually going to roll out different programs that will allow
different types of care or levels of care or maybe just certain services that will allow you to You know take part in the healing and the learning but maybe not in the most fullest form so we’re always trying to innovate to you know do more and offer more and so it’s coming and I think you know and there are other great options out there too like you know I know I’m supposed to be you’re talking about TANU but let’s there you know there are apps out there and
Kimberly Snyder (33:14.044)
Yes.
Julia Kim (33:26.862)
There’s an array of things that will offer you support, perhaps at different levels, but maybe we need to look at this more of a both and kind of thing rather than just go with this one thing.
Kimberly Snyder (33:44.096)
Well, maybe Sanu could even have online classes or using the practitioners to reach people that, where is Sanu located exactly?
Julia Kim (33:52.75)
Yeah, actually, oh my gosh, that is such a good point. So we’re located in Northern Virginia, about 10 miles outside of DC in a place called Tyson’s. And we’re at the, yeah, we’re at the Watermark Hotel. They’re phenomenal, by the way. I cannot, I wish I was casting right now from the Watermark, but it was, you know, the noise and everything, but they’re just phenomenal. And it’s a great, lovely space.
Kimberly Snyder (33:54.784)
I didn’t even know where it’s okay. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (34:04.48)
Oh yeah!
Julia Kim (34:20.792)
But you brought something up and which is, you know, like a virtual coaching or virtual support afterwards or access to our service partners. And, you know, especially if you stay with us, you’re always a TANU parent and we give you full access to all of our partners. But, you know, we actually have parents reaching out or…
Kimberly Snyder (34:25.702)
Yes!
Julia Kim (34:43.79)
perspective parents and clients reaching out to us and they’re like, Hey, I can’t find an OB GYN. We just need to move down here from New York or from another area. And, you know, Hey, I’m actually looking for, you know, a therapist of this kind. And, you know, even if you didn’t stay with us, we will do our utmost to actually link you up with.
with partners and providers. So really just email us and we will do our best to match you up with that support. And it’s just a service that we provide free of charge. You’re not like on a subscription or it’s not like, okay, we got you hooked up with an OBGYN, now you have to come and stay with us. It’s really not like us. We’re very inclusive and we wanna make sure that if we have the connections, we will offer them to you.
Kimberly Snyder (35:29.568)
Well, Julia, I love your passion and how open you are about this and so authentic about it. And of course, anyone around in that area, I’m glad you have that brick and mortar center. But I had this vision of you, you know, in this wider way, being able to support women everywhere, you know, through an online platform where other moms can connect or they can ask questions in real time, because not everyone can leave their home. And like you said, there’s a lot of postpartum deserts.
So just a little seed to plant. How can, you know, I just remember for me being in COVID, right? And it’s like, or there, but I found great solace in groups online and just, you know, just being able to connect some way with other mothers that were going through a similar experience, right? And being able to just be in touch with experts and different people. So just a little seed to plant there. I think that would be amazing.
Julia Kim (35:58.222)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (36:23.086)
That’s a fantastic idea. Oh yeah. You know, thank you for giving me that advice. You know, there might be something coming. So, I’m not.
Kimberly Snyder (36:31.04)
Yeah, just, you know, it just keeps, like we said, the creativity just keeps expanding in organic ways. And then you’ll see like, how do we fill these needs of mothers everywhere? And then things will just start to come up. But as so, you know, as two mamas here speaking that have been through a lot of, we know the reality that there’s hormonal shifts, and we’re not going to feel so stable in our emotions and our mental health. I’d love for you to touch on some specific tips.
Julia Kim (36:42.99)
Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (36:59.872)
that you’ve seen at your center really help mamas? If anyone is struggling right now or is about to be a new mama, we have many pregnant mamas in our community. What are a couple really tangible pieces of advice that we can give to them?
Julia Kim (37:13.71)
Yeah, so I always tell this to the parenting teams who come through and it’s related to sleep and it’s my number one piece of advice. And this by and large will apply if you have a co -parent, a partner, but I will say that yes, we all know that the two of you should be taking shifts watching the baby overnight. I mean, that is not a new innovative thing, but what I wanna recommend,
is that when one person is on, it’s their turn to be on and watching the baby, that that person actually leave the shared bedroom, take the camera or the monitor with you and let the other partner who’s resting actually sleep. Because what happens is when the monitor is on, when the sound is turned up, even if it’s not turned up that loudly, especially if it’s the mother who’s the one who’s resting, she’s in kind of this like.
flight or fight mode where you know any sound she’s going to be up and you cannot rest in that sort of environment. And so what I would recommend is that maybe the partner who is on shift take that monitor and go to the couch or to a second bedroom or any other space and you know.
Kimberly Snyder (38:13.356)
Yes.
Julia Kim (38:33.038)
Do your shift from there someplace where you can still, you know, take your naps and things, but you’ve got to be away from the mother or if you’re the mother and you’re the one who’s on, you’ve got to be away from your partner. Your partner means a dark room. Um, it has to be, you know, lower the temperature. So a cool dark room insulated from light and sound. Um, and so when you’re shifting, do not do it from the same space. So that is my number one thing. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (38:59.21)
Wait, Julia, can we pause there for a second? The idea of shifting, I gotta be totally honest here, it never came in for me because it’s like, I’m the one breastfeeding, right? So the way we did it was my husband would like get me snacks and he would cook and he would do things. But then how do we take turns if baby needs the milk? Like how do we do it? Like this is like a whole new concept that we never took shifts.
Julia Kim (39:18.606)
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s hard.
Julia Kim (39:24.398)
Yeah, it’s really hard. And for my first child, we didn’t take shifts either. I think we realized how exhausting it would be after or it was afterwards. And so we learned. But I mean, what you can do is maybe pump and yeah, and actually getting the baby used to bottles early on can be a really good thing. So as you later on transition, it can really be helpful. But if you can pump, if you can.
Kimberly Snyder (39:28.544)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (39:45.938)
Got it.
Julia Kim (39:51.618)
You may not want to, but, and it is your choice, but if you can pump, you know, I really encourage it. And it doesn’t, these shifts don’t have to be long, although I do recommend at least six hours to really get a full run cycle. But yeah, yeah, I know, I know it could be three, it could be two, but whatever the shifts are and you know, if you can manage it, try to pump. That is the best way to do it.
Kimberly Snyder (40:05.376)
That sounds like heaven.
Kimberly Snyder (40:18.336)
And then I think it ties back to what we said earlier about really internalizing that when the mother’s rested and cared for, it’s better for the baby. Because for me, Julia, there was all this like, I have to always be there for my child. It’s me, it’s me, I’m the mother, I should be there. It’s just complete all my energy, all my focus there versus even thinking I should be getting the rest or any focus should be on me, right? So we have to look at, create this awareness of.
you know, where we’re really coming from because I got so run down. I was, you know, no childcare, always on me, attachment parenting. You know, you can get me food, but it’s me, me, me, which, you know, can deplete over time.
Julia Kim (41:00.428)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, and we know that there are these outsize effects on mothers. I mean, we touched on the postpartum depression and the anxiety, but you know, like physical health complications too. I mean, we’re talking about like chronic pain and chronic fatigue and you know, that really affects the mother’s ability to care for herself and her baby. Pelvic floor issues, mastitis. I mean, it just goes on and on.
Kimberly Snyder (41:10.738)
Yeah.
Kimberly Snyder (41:25.68)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (41:28.428)
and the sleep deprivation, oh my gosh. I mean, that is a harbinger for really severe post -partum mental health issues. And so we really need to be caring for the mother. And I completely understand when you say that, you know, you want to have that secure bonding and attachment with your child. And so it can be difficult. And I think what sometimes what we need is the confidence in knowing that our caregivers and the people who are around us can do a good job. And that really comes with education. You know, you don’t have to,
Kimberly Snyder (41:56.368)
Yes.
Julia Kim (41:58.094)
trust people blindly. It’s like, hey, did you take that master class with me? Hey, do you know infant CPR? Like, do you know these things? And it’s okay as a mother for you to ask and to demand that you be confident in your co -caregivers. And so, you know, let’s do all of the things, including providing confident support from others, right?
Kimberly Snyder (42:21.856)
Oh my gosh, you talk about anxiety. I had many friends and myself included that go into almost debilitating fear that something’s going to happen to babies. Baby’s going to choke, baby’s going to have a fall, you know, SIDS, like all these things. And besides the general hormonal dysregulation, there’s so much anxiety. And I would have loved to stay at one of those centers, but I didn’t. So what else can you tell? Like you said, we can just be confident, we can do our best, but man, is that a…
You know, the first year of life, we are just so worried about our, a lot of us, I can say for myself, worried about our children.
Julia Kim (42:57.838)
Yeah, I mean, it’s a totally normal thing to have that sort of reaction. And the postpartum depression and anxiety that can come afterwards, it’s not just because of this fear that we’ve built up in our children. Like SIDS, for example, are they sleeping in the right way? Are we?
Kimberly Snyder (43:00.32)
Ugh.
Julia Kim (43:23.322)
keeping track of their blood pressure and doing all these things. But you know, like even the drop in progesterone, which I think I heard is the biggest hormonal drop that a woman will experience in her life happens postpartum. And it’s that drop in progesterone that affects so many things. And again, one of those things that we don’t talk about. And so it’s totally normal and expected for mothers to feel that way. And so, you know, and when I say confidence in your caregivers, like, you know, it…
we need to be taking classes together, we need to be more open and talking and communicating about expectations and hey, are you confident? Do you co -caregiver feel confident in caring for the baby? Can you really take care of the child for a few hours without coming and getting me, for me to do these things so that I’m actually getting rest? And so keeping communication open and there are just so many.
Kimberly Snyder (43:54.728)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (44:21.472)
ways that we can tackle this, but we’re not, and it’s all left to the mother.
Kimberly Snyder (44:27.174)
Yes, and I think simple awarenesses for me, Juliet, like in the environment, because of my fears about the child falling out of the bed, we got a bed on the floor, like Japanese style. And you know, it was just like one thing I didn’t have to worry about just these little shifts allowed me to just relax more. We can’t control everything, but little things can start to, you know, can be that support when we’re already quite ragged. So.
Julia Kim (44:40.022)
Mm -hmm. Wonderful.
Julia Kim (44:54.926)
That’s a great idea. A Japanese bed on the floor. Like, I never thought of that. That’s, I’m gonna do that.
Kimberly Snyder (45:01.088)
Oh, so when I went to Japan and I loved it and I loved everything, the architecture, the artfulness. And so now our bed is Japanese style and we’re going to renovate our bathroom to be Japanese style. But you know, Asian, Korean, Japanese, I love all of that. So anyways, but practically speaking, it was literally on the ground, like just this much off. So I just didn’t have that fear because one time my older son did roll off the bed when he was about eight months old.
Julia Kim (45:13.518)
Oh, I love it.
Kimberly Snyder (45:27.936)
and got a little bump and the mom guilt and everything. So anyways, we just keep making these little adjustments. But like you said, I think the education piece, the feeling more confident, the feeling supported is so vital. So is there anything else we didn’t cover Julia from your experience you would want mamas, mamas to be to know or mamas like me that are three years, seven years past?
that isn’t common knowledge or that we should be reminded of that we didn’t cover yet.
Julia Kim (46:01.454)
I mean, we covered a lot, but I will tell you that that postpartum period, it lasts a really long time and it can have outsize effects. And some people, some women, they never truly fully heal from that. And I get it. Sometimes birth can be traumatic. And if you don’t have the right support, it can really affect things, including your interpersonal relationships.
Kimberly Snyder (46:09.408)
Yeah.
Julia Kim (46:27.98)
And so maybe things between you and the people around you have changed. Maybe your work situation is not the same. And we do a lot at TANU working with executive mothers or mothers who have businesses or mothers who are working basically. We wanna make sure that after the fourth trimester or even within the fourth trimester, because as we all know, there is not enough parental leave here in the States, but.
Kimberly Snyder (46:39.998)
Mmmmm
Julia Kim (46:57.006)
you know, we want to ready you to get back to work. And, you know, if you don’t have that support, if you don’t have the confidence, if you don’t have the habits and routines down, you know, what it can look like when you go back to work can be different than what you expected. And so really take the time to think about that. I think that can be a particularly difficult period because there’s so many expectations that women have for themselves. And, you know, we want to…
Kimberly Snyder (47:12.594)
Yes.
Julia Kim (47:25.326)
have it all and do it all and be that, you know, do it all mom who can pull herself up by the bootstraps. But like I said to, you know, one of my friends earlier, I said, you know, sometimes we don’t even have boots on. And so we have got to support each other and, you know, just reach out, but make sure that you’re not isolating, you’re not self isolating and it’s easy to do, but reach out for help and really think about.
the dynamics of going back to work if that’s what you want to do. And, you know, as we kind of chug along, there is going to be more out there hopefully for mothers and partners. And so hopefully this is just the beginning.
Kimberly Snyder (47:57.256)
Yes.
Kimberly Snyder (48:11.392)
And also to trust that instinct, right? If we know something’s off, we need that support, not to push it down, not to pretend it’s not there, but to go to Sanu or other places to get that amazing postpartum care, to reach out. And I’ll say, I’ve never said this publicly before, Julia, but I mentioned my birth trauma from my first pregnancy and I didn’t feel right, but I kind of pushed it down. It just kept going. And it didn’t really come up until my second birth.
right before I gave birth, like hours before I went into this almost like anxiety panic attack. And it was just sort of all this stuff from the first birth came up, right? So, and I knew there was something going on afterwards, but I didn’t really get the care. So what I can say from my heart is to listen to those instincts and that there is more postpartum care coming. Thank you for sharing your amazing wisdom and bringing this to the forefront because this is so needed for mama.
for baby, for families, for society, right? Mothers, we are the backbone and just how we are with ourselves will trickle out into the collective. So this is powerful and this is so important. Thank you so much, Julia.
Julia Kim (49:26.286)
Thank you Kimberly, this has been great, I appreciate it.
Kimberly Snyder (49:29.408)
And so share with us where we can get more information about your work and your amazing center.
Julia Kim (49:35.34)
Yeah, so we are online, sanupostpartum .com. We’re on Instagram at SanupostpartumCare. Those are really the best places to get in touch with us. You can email us at hello at sanupostpartum .com. We will be in touch with you as soon as possible.
Kimberly Snyder (49:52.672)
Amazing, Julia. And remember our seed intention we saw, which is as a online sort of expansion as well in the future where you can reach so many others with your amazing wisdom and love and care. So, I’m excited to see how that may blossom. Thank you so much for all that you do for mamas and congratulations on your baby because you are very much in this period.
Julia Kim (50:15.31)
Thank you.
Kimberly Snyder (50:18.336)
And loves, thank you so much for tuning in. Please also head over to the show notes at mysaluna .com where we will link directly to Julia’s work as well as other podcasts I think you would enjoy. And we’ll be back here Thursday as always for our next Q &A show. Till then take great care and sending you so much.
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