Finding Healthy Sexual Expression with Danielle Harel and Celeste Hirschman [Episode #991]

 

 

This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Danielle Harel and Celeste Hirschman

In this episode Kimberly interviews intimacy and sexuality coaches Danielle Harel and Celeste Hirschman. They discuss their partnership, the importance of vulnerability in relationships, and how to dismantle societal masks that hinder authentic connections. The conversation delves into body image, sexual confidence, and the significance of cultivating erotic energy for overall wellness. They also explore the impact of cultural beliefs and shame on sexual expression, offering insights into daily practices for enhancing intimacy and navigating the complexities of pornography in relationships. The discussion also touches on the evolution of sexual desires over time, the impact of trauma on fantasies, and the empowerment that comes from self-connection and healing. The speakers emphasize the significance of open communication in relationships and the journey of understanding one’s own desires and experiences.

About Danielle Harel and Celeste Hirschman

Danielle Harel, Ph.D., and Celeste Hirschman, M.A., are pioneers in intimacy, sexuality, and relationship coaching. Co-founders of the Somatica® Institute, they’ve transformed how love and connection are taught through their experiential, science-based Somatica Method. Together, they’ve trained over 1,000 coaches and helped countless individuals and couples embrace vulnerability, rediscover desire, and create deeply fulfilling relationships. Authors of three influential books—Making Love Real, Coming Together, and Confidence—Danielle and Celeste blend authenticity, humor, and bold honesty to inspire transformation. Their relatable insights into intimacy and connection make them captivating guests on popular podcasts like Sex With Emily: Coming Together and Shameless Sex: How Core Desires Leads to Hot Sex, and Trauma Empowerment, where they offer audiences practical tools to enhance relationships and live passionately.

 

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Guest Resources 

Book:  Sex With Emily: Coming Together and Shameless Sex: How Core Desires Leads to Hot Sex, and Trauma Empowerment

Website: https://www.celesteanddanielle.com/

 

Social Media 

Instagram: @ somatica_institute

 

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Intimacy and Sexuality Coaching
01:45 The Power of Partnership in Coaching
04:08 Dismantling Masks and Embracing Vulnerability
07:52 Body Image and Sexual Confidence
10:48 Cultivating Erotic Energy and Self-Expression
13:32 The Connection Between Sexual Energy and Overall Wellness
16:14 Healing from Shame and Cultural Beliefs
19:42 Daily Practices for Sexual Energy and Connection
22:46 Navigating Pornography and Intimacy in Relationships
23:15 Exploring Intimacy Through Pornography
24:19 The Connection Between Vulnerability and Sexuality
28:09 Overcoming Blocks to Sexual Energy
32:31 The Evolution of Sexual Desires Over Time
35:55 Understanding Trauma and Fantasy in Sexuality
40:24 Empowerment Through Self-Connection and Healing

 

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OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY!

• Wellness Insights: How to Listen to Your Body for Nutritional Guidance [Episode 878]
• How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877
• How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger [Episode #873]
• How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo [Episode #867]

 

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Transcript: 

Kimberly Snyder (00:01.33)
Hi everyone and welcome back for our Monday interview show. I am so excited for my very special guests here today. I have two beautiful ladies to offer an incredible conversation. The first is Danielle Horrell and the second is Celeste Hirschman. They are pioneers in intimacy, sexuality and relationship coaching. They’re authors and co-founders of the Samadica Institute where they have taught and trained over a thousand coaches and helped countless individuals and couples embrace vulnerability, rediscover desire, and create deeply fulfilling relationships. Thank you both so much for being here with us today.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (00:44.654)
Thank so much for having us.

Danielle Harel, PhD (00:46.109)
Excited to be here.

Kimberly Snyder (00:47.91)
Well, so I love having partners on the show, business partners, creators together. So the first thing that comes to mind is number one, how did you find each other and decide to collaborate on so many different endeavors? And number two, what both led you to this particular work with intimacy and sexuality? Because it feels like a real, like everyone, you know, a calling, but this is a very specific type of calling.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (01:16.716)
Yeah, I mean, I have to say probably one of the best things that’s ever happened to me in my life is finding Danielle. And speaking of things that make me feel good, know, having our business partnership and being able to collaborate with someone for so many years and for us to just have the same mindset on and how we want to change the world has been so powerful and profound, changed my life forever, for sure.

Kimberly Snyder (01:22.268)
Aww. It’s so beautiful!

Danielle Harel, PhD (01:25.477)
It’s so cool.

Kimberly Snyder (01:45.042)
So how did you, was it through like a friends or through conference, business conference?

Danielle Harel, PhD (01:52.115)
Yeah, so I was doing my PhD in human sexuality and we had like a class that we took through this in the PhD and Celeste took that class. was also people outside of the PhD and Celeste took this class and that’s where we met. know, Celeste and I, as different as people can be, but, you know, we have amazing compatibility around this. We really, we met in the class, in the training, and then we kind of

Kimberly Snyder (02:01.97)
Danielle Harel, PhD (02:21.964)
She asked me out to go to a conference with her. We sat on a bench in San Francisco and we saw that our philosophy is so aligned. It was kind of amazing. We really saw eye to eye. Like, how do we want to help people have a better sex and relationship? And as we were talking, we’re like completing each other’s sentences. Sounds kind of soul-made in some way.

Kimberly Snyder (02:27.579)
that.

Kimberly Snyder (02:51.186)
I love this story. You sometimes it’s funny how outwardly it can seem like, we’re different. That’s how me and my husband are. He’s covered in tattoos and he has a gold grill on his teeth and, you know, just completely different lifestyles. But it’s like when you meet, whether it’s a business partnership or soulmate, that you guys, the intimacy, this closeness, this alignment that isn’t necessarily that you see with the physical eyes, but you feel on an energetic level. I love that you have that intensity together.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (03:17.366)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Danielle’s like a solid oak tree and I’m like a butterfly, you know, but we but we definitely have with our different skill sets have been able to do so much more together than we could have done alone in terms of creating this work that helps people have the best, know, helps people feel good. Like you said, this is a feel good. And that’s what it’s all about. And our first workshop was

Kimberly Snyder (03:41.724)
Yes.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (03:46.124)
a workshop for men on how to be extraordinary lovers to women. And we thought, you know, what want for the world is for women to feel good, you know, and we can train men and everyone else, you know, obviously women have lots of different lovers across the gender spectrum. But in that instance, we were teaching men how to be better lovers to women. And it was a really wonderful place to start for us.

Kimberly Snyder (03:55.409)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (04:08.466)
Mm. And you know, I’m glad you brought up this, you know, this term feel good, which to me has so much to do with connection to self. And then you are able to connect with others and authenticity. So it doesn’t mean you have to be like overly giddy or giggly or overly happy, but really authentic and real. And I know a lot of your work touches on that vulnerability because whether it’s in the bedroom or relationships or, you know, business, wherever there’s so many masks that we can wear.

that keep us from really connecting. How do you start to, when you’re working with someone and you’ve trained so many different people, start to dismantle the mask? Because I feel like even now in culture with social media and TikTok, it’s even more exacerbated in some ways, where if some people don’t even know what their authentic self is, so they don’t know how to authentically connect physically or sexually.

Danielle Harel, PhD (05:02.62)
Yeah, it’s a wonderful question. I feel like the way we do it is there are multiple ways, of course, but we start by actually pointing out the cultural belief systems and all the ways that we’re being fed from very early on, different belief systems, different structures that might be working for some people or not. So that definitely, like we start to talk about those social messages.

And then we start to give people alternatives about like, Hey, you know, there may be like other options that you can think about. we de-shamify the heck of it because we bring ourselves as examples. We talk about like how not perfect we are. We talk about helping people see that you can have a wonderful, beautiful full life without being perfect, but at least you’re to have your own life and not going to live someone else’s life.

Kimberly Snyder (05:56.964)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (06:00.524)
Yeah, I feel like I was very lucky as a child. think my family’s motto was feel good. You know, they sort of like not so much work ethic, much more of a play ethic. And so I learned I learned how to play and I kept playing throughout my life. And and now I get to teach other people how to play with life as well, you know, and and feeling good and having a joyful life. It’s not just like a frivolous thing. It’s like a revolutionary act, especially if you’re

who’s supposed to be who you are in the world, you know, to say like, like, I’m a bisexual woman, and I feel good. And I can be myself, you know, like if you’re if you’re not like, if you’re sort of like outside what as our society tries to normalize, normalize, normalize, and everybody’s supposed to be the same. It’s like, no, I’m different. And I feel good is a big deal, right?

Kimberly Snyder (06:48.028)
Yes, right? And it can be in any way. Sometimes we can fall into a career path because it looks good or our parents wanted us to do this and then we’re never really happy making the money or, you know, all the many ways. So back to this cultural perspective and so much of our society has these ideas of, you know, beauty and body weight and body image.

So what would you say to our listeners or anyone that says, well, when I’m in, when I’m naked with my partner, I just can’t enjoy myself because I feel so self-conscious. I’m thinking about, don’t look good, you know, because it just creates, even though in my body, you can feel like you shrivel up instead of expanding, you start to feel very small. And then the thoughts and like overthinking. So how do we open up? How do we start to…

embrace our energy more than just the physical, again, in life, but also sexually.

Danielle Harel, PhD (07:52.028)
Yeah, that’s great. So yeah, it’s beautiful how you said it because like that’s exactly where we start. We say, okay, so when you’re feeling like that about yourself, like notice how it feels like you feel contained and you feel small and you don’t feel your beautiful, glorious, big self. So let’s see what it would feel like if you actually stepped into your body and let your full self actually.

breathe and feel pleasure and enjoy the connection and the intimacy because many times because of socialization and because the images that we see, we feel that something’s wrong with our body. But many times our partner might feel that that’s the most delicious body that they’ve ever encountered in life. And if we are like so tight inside that we don’t even allow ourselves to open up and take those compliments and kind of like, you know, I know I worked on my body image a lot through this like

in the bedroom. It was one of my most healing places to work on that because that was the place I was like, okay, I’m going to actually listen to my partner and I’m going to take it in. He like, you know, touches my belly and he says like, belly is so beautiful. And I was like, okay, I’m going to take it in. I’m going to ask him again. I really love my belly. Please tell me. He’s like, yeah, my God, I love your belly so much. You know, like it’s a wonderful way to start healing it and allowing a different truth.

to come in that’s not just like the very polished truth that we see on social media.

Kimberly Snyder (09:21.202)
Right, right. I love that. Because we all, you know, it’s interesting how back to this authenticity, to me, know, sexiness isn’t just something you can paint on. It really is the energy that someone’s embodying. And that is something we don’t have to try to be perfect looking. And there really is no perfect looking, but what we can is work on that connection as we express it.

You know, in yoga, the sacral chakras, you know, the creative expression is the sexuality, the creating projects, the writing, you know, pregnancy, all these different things come from that place, which is so unique. Are there any in your workshops and your training, are there any practices or specific journal prompts or anything that you do to invoke someone to really connect with that essence of?

you know, that sexiness that cannot just be painted on.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (10:18.114)
Yeah, we actually have like an erotic embodiment class where you go in step by step, get re in touch with your body and actually find that pleasure center and learn how to move that energy through your body and exude it out of your body. And we also have a body image class, you know, to help people overcome some of those challenges. So we really focus on people healing around those things and finding their, you know, their inner glow and letting it shine out in the world.

Kimberly Snyder (10:21.478)
Man.

Danielle Harel, PhD (10:48.404)
And we really find that this disconnects from the body and disconnects from our erotic experience in our body. Because women were one of the messages we get is that if we are sexual, we’re sluts. So we don’t let ourselves connect with our sexuality. And I was like, wow, sexuality is your power. That’s the place that you’re to have the creativity and the aliveness. So let’s get deeper into it. And in this classes, we really invite people to kind of like, yeah.

how to decompartmentalize this experience of sexuality and make it like a life force as opposed to this like shrunk thing that you just keep in the bedroom for your partner for specific act. No, it’s yours. It’s yours to live with and enjoy and really kind of take it in.

Kimberly Snyder (11:38.394)
And I think too, there’s this line of what feels really good to us to be in our sexual power, but not to feel like we have to show too much or give things away when we don’t want to to get attention, to know that it’s inside for us. It’s kind of hard to verbalize, but I know you guys know what I’m talking about, where it really is this incredible creative center to share with our partner or who we choose.

but also to feel like it’s also really sacred and special.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (12:10.006)
And I feel like people are so different. Like some people want a little bit more of that internal space and they don’t want to be like looked at all the time or invaded. And so they can decide I’m going to keep that piece a little bit more internal and I’m going to show it just when I want to receive that intention. And other people are like, give me all the attention all the time. And so just allowing for the fact that people are different and people need different amounts of attention, means like you get to, when you really get that glow going, it’s up to you.

Kimberly Snyder (12:12.592)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (12:17.425)
West.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (12:39.246)
to decide who you share it with and how you share it with. And you might wanna share it moderately with specific people, or you might wanna share it broadly with everyone. And that’s such a personal choice. And I think that’s the thing that is so important about the way that we teach in Somatica, one size doesn’t fit all. People feel differently about energy and attention, and let’s find out who each person is and what they want in that realm.

Kimberly Snyder (12:40.72)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (12:56.177)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (13:02.756)
Right. And even to the fact I have a couple of friends who are working on their sexual connection, but they’ve chosen right now to be celibate, which is really interesting. So this sexual energy is coming through and they feel passionate when they’re cooking their dinner, right? Or it’s like they feel it when they’re putting on their makeup and they’re living it, but it doesn’t have to be as literal, like you said, in like sexual acts, but more of this creative energy, this pulse, this Kundalini.

Danielle Harel, PhD (13:32.124)
Yeah, that’s aliveness. That’s wonderful. That’s it’s really important, as Celeste said, for us to help people understand. It’s yours. Do what you want to do with it. You don’t have to apologize of how you want to live your life. You don’t have to decide. You can change your mind. You can decide how you want to cultivate and grow this erotic energy, but this is your life force and you deserve to experience this level of aliveness.

Enjoy and funnel it anywhere that you want to.

Kimberly Snyder (14:05.666)
Mm-hmm. And you know, here at Saloon on My Brand, we talk a lot about holistic wellness and how one thing affects everything else. So sort of like, you know, you guys are talking about rigidity or clamping it down or trying to suppress sexual energy, which feels quite rigid, can lead to anything, right? Inflammation, stress, constipation, this aliveness, this vitality or yoga, we would say prana.

has an overall wellness effect. Have you seen that quite literally in yourselves and or any clients how it just opens up overall physical health?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (14:43.262)
Yeah, it’s really funny because one day we were accused of only having like hot coaches. And I think people were looking at the photos of our coaches and they were exuding their joy and erotic energy because they don’t all look a particular way. And so it’s, what Somatica does is it helps people find that glow on the inside. And then it just exudes out from you. And it’s so beautiful and healthy and alive and sexy that

Kimberly Snyder (14:57.457)
Right.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (15:09.166)
everyone looks gorgeous when they have it, you know? And I think that’s the confusion about like looks have to be a particular way. No, it’s like when you’re connected to your erotic energy, it’s gorgeous, it’s beautiful. And it helps you feel more alive. It helps stress move through your body, right? Orgasms help you get rid of stress. you know, like being in pleasure helps tension and cortisol go away. So all of that increases your health and your joy and your longevity, you know.

being in connection with this part of ourselves is hugely, hugely healing. And when we’re robbed of it, it’s so disempowering.

Kimberly Snyder (15:45.776)
Hmm. And, you know, I mentioned a couple of things that can happen when you feel disempowered, right? On a physical level, we could say like inflammation, like things are sort of kept in. What have you seen in some people when they’re starting in your programs or, you know, just out in the world when you can tell that someone isn’t allowing them to feel this energy, which is part of the human experience.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (16:11.598)
Go ahead, Danielle, I’m gonna let you take it.

Kimberly Snyder (16:12.62)
I don’t have to say anything.

Danielle Harel, PhD (16:13.332)
I feel like many times people are just muted. They feel much more depressed. They feel sad. I feel like they’re not fully owning their body and they are just not fully, you know, alive. And you see it, you see the difference because again, like we have a program when we train coaches and you see people when they come in and you see them when they come out and it’s just like a complete revolution because when you let yourself like be who you are,

Kimberly Snyder (16:19.634)
I love you.

Danielle Harel, PhD (16:42.95)
you feel better and it’s not necessarily an easy path, you know what I mean? I don’t want people to think like, it’s all easy. You do confront sadness and you do work with other parts of yourself that are not fully, that were not all celebrated growing up because that’s a healing journey, right? So really kind of…

seeing that allows people to really feel their best self on all levels, you know.

Kimberly Snyder (17:14.724)
Yes, I mean, there’s a part of this too that I think is questioning not just societal beliefs, but also your ancestral, your family beliefs. Because I know having grown up in a very Catholic conservative family, when I was little, I remember starting when I was about seven, my well-meaning grandmother and relatives would tell me not to smile. They were like, you’ll get attention. know, like almost like shaming.

like to be like, know, men also to look at you, like you shouldn’t be doing this and that and cover like covering up all the time. So it starts to feel like these patterns are, you know, this bigger level, but then also individual within the family that can they have to be overcome in order to feel that, you know, lack of shame, that freedom burgeoning up.

Danielle Harel, PhD (18:08.04)
Yeah, definitely. grew up. Sorry. I just, I sorry. You have a delay.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (18:08.718)
Yeah, and I do feel like

Kimberly Snyder (18:13.916)
Yeah.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (18:16.77)
Yeah, no, I think on a foundational level, there’s when you get all of those messages all the time, it’s this kind of lack of safety and reconnecting with safety in your own body and feeling this truth of the self, which is that, you know, I can come back to me always, no matter what happens to me. I can always come back to me gives you this sense of like safety in the world. And then like we said, you get to decide what you want to do with your energy, but don’t put it out, you know.

Like learn how to stoke it and connect with it and be with it and find your sense of safety in connection with that part of yourself.

Kimberly Snyder (18:46.962)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (18:55.154)
Daniel, do you have something to add to that?

Danielle Harel, PhD (19:00.082)
Yeah, I totally resonate with what you’re talking about because I grew up with a lot of shame as well and every movement was shamed almost like, you know, and there’s something in the process of healing that is about reclaiming those parts and really like letting myself feel what it feels like to move or start to like shed the shame and start to feel like, wow, like, you know, my body is magical. You know, it has so much.

beauty in it that’s not just about what my mom said or what society says and it really can be very powerful, this process of shedding the shame.

Kimberly Snyder (19:42.322)
So in your work, there’s so many different aspects of wellness. could say with diet, some people kind of go on and off. may try to have a diet. go exercise. With this particular journey with healing sexual energy in your teachings, is it something that you encourage people to think about, consider, work on on a daily basis, on a regular basis? I know it’s a nonlinear path. Some people may touch into it and then, you

Danielle Harel, PhD (19:49.544)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (20:11.196)
come back, how does it flow in general? Because I know it’s.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (20:15.18)
Yeah, feel like there’s this sort of sexual anorexia that we have as a culture, this sort of lack of connecting with our eroticism that may make us seek all sorts of, get our needs met elsewhere in a way that doesn’t feel great. Whereas when we actually cultivate our erotic energy, when we allow ourselves to have our orgasms however we want to get them with ourself or with other people.

Kimberly Snyder (20:27.867)
Uh-huh.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (20:44.63)
or whatever makes us feel orgasmic, whatever that is, whether it’s dancing or gardening or masturbating, learning how to let ourselves fill up with that energy is so powerful. And I think you wanna take it at a pace that feels comfortable for you, right? Because if you’ve been denying it, denying it, denying it for so long, it can be a lot to just like fully rev up into it. Maybe you need to go very gently with like finding different approaches to pleasure.

that are in alignment with, you know, whatever, a walk or a bath or just like, you know, like dancing and connecting with that energy and then move your way into a more erotic expression and connection. So yeah, I mean, I think eventually the more you do it, the better, but you, you, it’s okay to not pressure yourself to, to go into it too quickly.

Kimberly Snyder (21:39.468)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and feels like this, guys are teaching is really this deepening of connection, this feeling good. On another note, and again, we’re not saying no right or wrong, there’s this whole spectrum of things out there. I did read a statistic a few weeks ago that was about how some married couples are having, I’m not going to say the exact number because I don’t, it’s like 30 something percent less, whatever it was in this research study.

having some percentage less sex because of pornography, right? Because one of the, one or both members of the couple was going out or to sort of seek that. And I wondered what you guys see that in your work where it’s not necessarily intimacy, it’s a bit more out here and how that can affect this connection with self and with couples because we see how

you know, accessible, a lot of these websites, pornography is today.

Danielle Harel, PhD (22:46.298)
Yeah, I think the sad part is that people are not able to talk about it with each other, not necessarily that going for pornography, but more that they’re not able to share it with each other because I think there’s what they found in research as well is that people search in pornography stuff that they’re not like, that really turns them on. So it’s an opportunity. If people could start talking about it with each other, we encourage people to do it’s like, wow, like that’s an, can be a journey of learning like.

Kimberly Snyder (22:56.22)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (23:09.564)
Hmm.

Danielle Harel, PhD (23:15.146)
wow. So what is actually turning you on? And let’s see how we can incorporate in our relationship. What is it? What is something that you’re really excited about in pornography that can help us be more intimate with each other? yeah, because it doesn’t have to be divorced from their relationship. It doesn’t mean that they have to watch porn together. So let’s see it. What is it that you’re going and seeing in porn that excites you?

Kimberly Snyder (23:30.482)
Right, bring it to her. Yeah.

Danielle Harel, PhD (23:42.92)
and then we can talk about it and understand what it is and then we can break it down and maybe we can do some of the things in our relationship or at least talk about it and feel much more acceptance or curiosity about that.

Kimberly Snyder (23:57.392)
Yeah, because it does seem to be there’s a route there. Again, no right or wrong. But if someone is just constantly, it’s easier to just watch something versus work on intimacy with a partner right here. Right. And maybe there’s disconnection with self. But if it’s happening so much that you’re not connecting in your present life, it’s something to pay attention to.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (24:19.328)
Yeah, porn is definitely the path of least resistance, right? You’re just like, if you can just flip, flip off on a channel, get to your highest state of a route, we’ll be done and move on, you know, and actually dealing with other human beings, And, and I think that’s why we’re seeing like virginity numbers going up because people aren’t interacting anymore. They’re just like, I have an itch. I’m going to scratch it and then move on. and, and I think pornography gives that opportunity. but.

Kimberly Snyder (24:28.976)
Yeah. Right.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (24:46.892)
there’s some things that are really missing from it around connection and, you know, that exchange that happens when you share your erotic energy with someone else. So ultimately, like there’s nothing inherently wrong with porn or watching it sometimes, but also you might, if you’re only doing that, you might really miss out on what’s available in terms of all of, like we were talking about earlier, the health benefits of actually sharing eroticism with someone else, you know, which is quite profound in terms of attachment.

Kimberly Snyder (25:10.802)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (25:15.299)
Exactly.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (25:16.75)
because secure attachment and deepening the bonds that you have with people can really happen through sex as well.

Kimberly Snyder (25:25.756)
Well, I love how you guys talk about vulnerability. You don’t have to be vulnerable to watch the porn. There’s a distance, right? And yet when you’re with someone and you’re really sharing yourself and you’re with that person, this showing yourself, which can be so hard for so many people, the vulnerability, literally the nakedness, can feel, there can be a lot of fear around that.

Danielle Harel, PhD (25:49.446)
Yeah, also it can be a lot of vulnerability around what turns us on and what are we excited about, right? It’s a very vulnerable thing to share with someone, you know? Like, it really is the deepest thing we can share about ourselves, you know? I’m turned on by something that maybe my partner is not exactly approving or maybe our culture is not approving. So how do I bring it into the relationship? How do I talk about it? And that’s a, I think it’s a brave act.

Kimberly Snyder (25:53.65)
Mmm.

Danielle Harel, PhD (26:17.437)
to talk with your partner around what turns you on and not just like, know, not just go and outsource it in porn because I think there’s something really powerful about bringing this vulnerability. You might be rejected because your partner might not be excited about it or might feel judgmental or might feel that they don’t want to participate in it, right? So there’s, that’s why it’s so hard to be vulnerable, you know?

Kimberly Snyder (26:30.418)
Yeah.

Danielle Harel, PhD (26:46.342)
It’s a risk that we’re taking when we’re doing that. But I think that that’s what actually creates deeper intimacy, taking this risk, learning how to respond and not to feel like now that means that I have to give it to my partner or not. That is me. That my partner have to give it to me and instead say, okay, this is what turns me on. And it doesn’t mean that you have to give it to me, but how can we play with that? I just want to be known by you and I want to know you better.

That’s what real literacy is about.

Kimberly Snyder (27:18.066)
Well, it’s so much authentic expression and the yogis talk about how sacral, like the sexual energy is actually connected to the Vasudeha chakra, the throat chakra. So I imagine this, being able to voice more would come across in other places in your life, whether it work, with other friendships, you start to develop a really strong connection to your own truth, voice.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (27:41.836)
Yeah, opening up, and honestly about who you are in all areas of your life is so powerful. And like you said, sound is also powerful, know, so sound can help you become even much more deeply orgasmic if we want to add all of the wonderful things about opening the throat chakra, you know, just like the authenticity, orgasmic energy, everything moves through the whole channel.

Kimberly Snyder (27:45.414)
No.

Kimberly Snyder (28:00.508)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (28:09.426)
So what are some of the, you we talked about, you know, people have to, is a big thing and then also overcoming extreme, you know, fixation on the, you know, the so-called imperfections of the physical body. What are some other big blocks that you guys see in your work in terms of really opening up the sexual energy?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (28:31.362)
I think, do you have something Danielle that you want to share?

Danielle Harel, PhD (28:34.48)
Go ahead.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (28:38.616)
feels like there’s lots of pauses. It’s breaking up a little bit for me.

Danielle Harel, PhD (28:43.668)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (28:43.962)
Is it? Okay, yeah, we’ll edit out some of the pauses. Don’t worry, guys.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (28:55.138)
Some other things that block sexual energy. Yeah, I feel like that critical voice. Yeah, I feel like critical voice really blocks sexual energy. Like all of these ways in which we feel like we’re not good enough or we start to beat ourselves up. I shouldn’t have done that or that’s so embarrassing or, know, instead of just saying like, you know, I’m imperfect, life is imperfect. I’m gonna keep going. And so really learning how to speak to that critical voice and not.

Kimberly Snyder (28:58.834)
You’re a good girl.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (29:23.946)
let it run the show, I feel like is a huge thing. I have a lot of clients who are constantly self-shaming. They’ve maybe internalized that voice of criticism or shame and learning how to like fight back against that voice and say, I hear you, you’re trying to save me from embarrassment, but it’s not helping. Like, let’s just be embarrassed sometimes. Intimacy requires a high level of tolerance for awkwardness. know, things are gonna be weird and uncomfortable.

and you still can get so much out of it if you don’t feel like you have to be perfect in every moment. So I think that’s a big block for a lot of people energetically.

Kimberly Snyder (30:00.824)
know, Celeste, while you were saying that, you kept touching your heart intuitively. And that’s, know, a lot of my work is on the heart and heart coherence and getting out of the head. And I can really identify with what you’re saying. Thoughts can feel really heavy and complicated and really take you out of the moment. So I feel like the more like here I am in my heart and you can feel and you can be, and it’s not overthinking, right?

Because to be in our sexual energy is nonlinear. You can’t just think your way through. But there’s wisdom inside that allows you to move from that intuitive place. So thank you for that.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (30:34.99)
Exactly.

Danielle Harel, PhD (30:44.552)
Yeah, definitely. I feel like that’s the wisdom, like letting the, listening to this intuition, listening to this energy as part of who we are. That’s a lot of what the wisdom is. And it’s not like, you know, it’s, it’s a cultivation and a reconnection with who we really are. that’s being releasing and flowing.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (31:12.438)
Yeah, if you’re a little brain person, know, like I know I learned a lot about like listening to a deeper voice from Danielle because she has this like voice in her belly that just knows, you know, what’s going on. And like learning how to honor that in myself, too, because it’s like I come from a very heady family, you know, so finding my body and reconnecting to my body was huge in terms of just feeling more safe and alive.

Kimberly Snyder (31:12.592)
Yeah.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (31:41.282)
And I do feel like our clients, we work with our clients and our students on that all the time. Like, don’t just be in your head. Don’t just ask a bunch of questions. Feel your emotions, feel your sensations, feel your different centers of your body, your heart, your belly, your pelvic floor, your throat, like you said, so that you have all of those pieces in connection and we help people with breath work to reconnect, especially to the pelvic floor, which really gets disconnected from.

But also, you know, our heart, our gut, wisdom, right? All of those things can, we can have disconnections. So learning how to reconnect with a body and reintegrate really, really helps people feel more, more safe, free, alive, know, loving and erotic.

Kimberly Snyder (32:28.507)
Hmmmm

And I love how you guys say that, know, permission to shift and change over time. everybody’s individual and there’s different journeys and phases we go through. So do you work with clients? Like they may have a different sexual energy and connection. They’re twenties and now they’re in their fifties or their sixties and they’re working to rediscover that or maybe discover something that was suppressed for a long time. And you know, they’re expressing in a different way at different phases.

Danielle Harel, PhD (33:00.422)
I think what a lot of what I see is that many times in our 20s, we’re not exactly knowing what we want and we’re going more for whatever is culturally approved. then we mature and get more connected to ourselves. And with doing this work, we start to feel deeper into who we are. And the more we are like feeling into it, our sexuality can shift, our desires can shift. And I feel like they don’t usually become very different. They just become

Kimberly Snyder (33:09.778)
Yeah.

Danielle Harel, PhD (33:30.15)
more precise and more like more of yourself, you become more of yourself and you and if you do the work of like really de-shamifying and removing layers of, know, like giving more permission, removing layers of shame, then you can actually like look at it and respect it and let it gonna, you know, let it be so healing to follow this path of, you know, interests and unfolding.

Kimberly Snyder (33:59.346)
And it’s not something that happens overnight, like you said, deconstructing shame and it’s a process and it’s experiential. Like no one’s gonna say, oh, here’s the button and now you don’t have the shame anymore, right? It’s just, feel like this, you know, some of these telltale signs, more freedom, just later.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (34:21.27)
Yeah, completely. And I think some people don’t realize that our erotic desires are shaped when we’re really young. And so we don’t actually have a choice over them. Sometimes we can feel ashamed of what our desires are, you know, especially if we fantasize about things where we’re like, my gosh, I don’t even know if I want that to happen, but it really, really turns me on. And I think that happens a lot for women. And so for us to

be able to like acknowledge our fantasy life and really understand it and then see what part of it do we wanna just run in our head? What part of it do we actually wanna play out with other partners? That process of de-shamifying can take quite some time because our fantasies can be shaped by all sorts of things. Sometimes things that happened to us that we wished hadn’t happened to us. I think that’s why it’s very important to give ourselves that gentleness and self-acceptance of like,

Kimberly Snyder (35:04.338)
Hmm

Celeste Hirschman, MA (35:13.11)
whatever our brain is doing, we don’t have to beat ourselves up about it and learn how we can get pleasure out of that without feeling like, I’m not supposed to have those fantasies or I’m not supposed to have those thoughts.

Kimberly Snyder (35:25.618)
Well, Celesto, is there trauma that needs to be healed sometimes, you know, in your work that you see like, well, I didn’t process this situation. And now it’s, you know, sort of like you hear the, person who grew up with an alcoholic father marries an alcoholic or whatever, you’re sort of continuing the pattern. How do you, I know it’s so individual, like see that line of like, well, this is freedom and fantasy versus this is something that actually is a traumatic experience that hasn’t been processed.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (35:55.256)
Yeah, and we want to separate that out because if you think about it, you know, maybe there’s some things that got built into your nervous system around having, let’s just use alcoholic parent as an example. And so there are some things that may be about having that situation that are very like, you know, like you feel like surprise or there’s uncertainty in it. Maybe you don’t want the surprise and uncertainty of an alcoholic partner, but in the bedroom, you want your partner to be able to play with you.

with some surprise or uncertainty or maybe even like spanking or something, you know what I mean? So separating out like, I’m gonna live with that person the same as my alcoholic parent or I’m gonna find somebody who loves me and who’s not drunk all the time, but who can play with some of my fantasies that might’ve come out of those childhood experiences in a way that’s safe and consensual and for me as opposed to me just like putting up with things that are horrible for me.

That’s empowerment, know, that’s agency. And I think that’s something that people don’t totally understand. think, I have to get rid of all these fantasies. It’s like, no, there might be something like very exciting about somebody being a little bit like off kilter, you know? But that doesn’t mean you want to marry them. You might just want to play with a little bit of that energy in the bedroom. And that’s something that like we want to, you know, that we want to tease out.

Kimberly Snyder (37:12.875)
Mm, mm, I got it. Yeah, it’s so individual, isn’t it?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (37:18.369)
Exactly.

Kimberly Snyder (37:20.048)
And I think, you know, this looking inward starts to, you a lot of people don’t even, like you said, have trouble talking about this topic or kind of brush over it or pretend everything’s okay because that looking inward and creating more awareness, I think is such a huge first step. many people listening to this conversation is like, haven’t thought about this or talked about it ever.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (37:47.502)
Exactly.

Danielle Harel, PhD (37:48.626)
Definitely. Yeah, that’s a very, I think it’s a very noble idea and I think it is making people uncomfortable, you know, because we’re not choosing our upbringing. You did not choose your mom. I did not choose to be criticized. That’s we grow with, but it shapes us in some way. And then like when we’re thinking about healing, it’s not about like getting rid of our past or it’s more like

okay, this is gonna be a part of it. And then like, how do I get some sort of resolution and agency around it? And you know, like when we work with people, we experience trauma, we see like two pathways that people kind of take. Some people don’t wanna have anything to do with remembering that trauma or fantasizing about it, okay? And they choose a much more like embody based, body based, you know, like sexuality.

Kimberly Snyder (38:43.698)
Mm.

Danielle Harel, PhD (38:46.216)
They prefer many times not to fantasize and they’ll go into like, feel like, I want to feel like more nature and I want to feel a part of something that is kind of bigger than me. And some people really still want to fantasize and the fantasy might be shaped by some trauma. And then like, feel that that’s okay and they can own it and how to play with it in a way that’s going to be theirs. It’s not.

anyone else’s fantasy now and it’s not anyone else’s experience, it’s their experience and how to make, you know, the most out of it because it will turn them on and how to incorporate it in their lives and in their relationship. That’s what we call trauma empowerment. we go through this process and it blows their mind because like, my God, I don’t have to be divorced from my fantasies. I can incorporate them in my turn ons.

If I want to, and I also have the ability to just, you know, go through a more body-based arousal, that’s like, you know, have eating the cake and having it too. That’s how you say it. Having it both ways.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (39:53.794)
Yeah.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (39:58.222)
So yeah,

Kimberly Snyder (39:58.236)
And as you’re sharing that, Danielle, it made me, if people are interested in learning about this and your programming, you don’t have to be in relationship with anyone else. You can connect to self, which I imagine is like so powerful. And then if you wanna connect with partners or find someone, you’ve had this establishment in yourself connection.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (40:22.264)
Exactly.

Kimberly Snyder (40:24.976)
Wow. So where can people find out more about your work and if they’re interested in learning about intimacy and connection and more tools, classes you mentioned?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (40:36.535)
Yes.

Yeah, we have learn.somatica.com for both the embodiment class and the body image class. We also have like a spiritual sexuality class that I think your listeners might really enjoy. And if they have some of those, you know, deeper fantasies, we have something called core desires that help them explore those more complex fantasies. But yeah, learn.somatica.com. And also if people are interested in becoming a coach, somaticainstitute.com also is where we train coaches.

Kimberly Snyder (41:04.85)
Mmm.

Danielle Harel, PhD (41:09.864)
Yeah, because we really found people that experience this kind of like interest in spirituality, also interested in sexuality and it’s beautiful. And many times they find a lot of joy and healing for themselves and also then want to spread the love and the word to others and support others in the process. And we love having them in our coaching training.

Kimberly Snyder (41:32.976)
It sounds like you guys really love what you do.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (41:37.07)
amazing. It makes us feel good like you said feel good

Kimberly Snyder (41:41.572)
Do you guys live in the same city?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (41:44.046)
No, I’m in San Francisco, Danielle’s in Sunnyvale. So we’re nearby.

Kimberly Snyder (41:47.972)
Okay, so you see each other sometimes and you know, that’s, well, I love to see people, especially so passionate about what they’re doing. And then you’re talking about passion and connection. So, I mean, some of you are listening to this on audio. I encourage you to check out the YouTube as well. So you can see Celeste and Danielle, which really are glowing. They look so authentically, like, you know, the smile that comes from your heart comes from the soul.

Danielle Harel, PhD (41:51.207)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (42:16.594)
You just seem like such joyful, lovely humans, which is a testament to the work that you’re doing to create this wholeness where we’re not sort of isolating or suppressing a part of ourselves. So thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom with us. And is there anything that we didn’t cover that you’d like to share with everyone before we sign off?

Celeste Hirschman, MA (42:40.418)
No, that was wonderful. Thank you so much.

Danielle Harel, PhD (42:43.22)
was lovely to meet you, Kimberly. It’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast.

Kimberly Snyder (42:49.268)
yeah, I love chatting with you both. And thank you everyone so much for tuning in. Our show notes again will be posted as always at mysaluna.com. We will link directly to Celeste and Danielle’s work and their website so you can check it out for yourself and as well as articles and other shows that I think you would enjoy. We’ll be back here soon. You can also check in with me at at underscore Kimberly Snyder on social. Thank you so much. Thank you so much ladies and sending you all so much love till next time.

Celeste Hirschman, MA (43:19.406)
Thank you.

Danielle Harel, PhD (43:20.34)
Thank you.