This week’s topic: How to Harness the Power of Anger in Self-Compassion with Kristin Neff

Hi loves, welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited to have a very special guest on our podcast today, Dr. Kristin Neff, who is the author of this wonderful book, Fierce Self-Compassion, How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive. Kristin is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and she is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research. She’s been doing studies on self-compassion for over 20 years on this very important topic around self-compassion.

Topics Covered

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background of Dr. Kristin Neff
06:32 The Role of Anger in Self-Compassion
35:30 Living in Alignment with Self-Compassion: Clarifying Your Values
42:24 The Self-Compassion Community: Support and Resources for Practicing Self-Compassion

About Kristin Neff

Kristin Neff, PhD, received her bachelors from the University of Los Angeles in communication studies and her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley in moral development. She did two years of postdoctoral study at the University of Denver researching self-concept development. She is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. During Dr. Neff’s last year of graduate school, she became interested in Buddhism and started practicing self-compassion. While doing her post-doctoral work she decided to conduct research on the construct, which had not yet been examined empirically. She developed a theory and created a scale to measure self-compassion more than 20 years ago. Dr. Neff has written numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic and has been recognized as one of the most influential scholars in the field of psychology. Well over 5000 studies have been conducted on self-compassion by various scholars since her seminal articles were first published in 2003.

Kristin Neff Book

Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive

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Transcript:
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.629)
Hi loves, welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited to have a very special guest on our podcast today, Dr. Kristin Neff, who is the author of this wonderful book, Fierce Self-Compassion, How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive. Kristin is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and she is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research.

She’s been doing studies on self-compassion for over 20 years. So Dr. Kristin, thank you so much for joining us here today in this very important topic around self-compassion.

Kristin (00:44.642)
Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I’m excited to talk with you.

Kimberly Snyder (00:48.341)
I’m so excited to get into this because there’s a part in the book in the beginning where you talk about how there’s some kind of practice where you write out how you would speak to your friend and how you would speak to yourself and how different it is. And for many of us, we’ll get to the gender part in a moment, Kristin, but all of us, it seems to be so much easier to be compassionate with others. Is that just how we’re wired?

Kristin (01:02.616)
Yes.

Kristin (01:12.702)
Yeah, and there are some pretty strong reasons. There are strong reasons for that. So don’t beat yourself up if you beat yourself up. One of the reasons is just how our brains work. When we feel personally threatened, we go into fight, flight, or freeze. And if the threat is ourself, we’ve done something wrong or stressed, we turn that response inward and we beat ourselves up, we fight ourselves to try to control things, or we flee into a sense of shame and isolation, or we freeze and we get stuck.

Whereas with our friends, we aren’t so personally threatened if they’re struggling in some way. And so it’s easier to use the care system, which also evolved, but it really evolved to take care of our family members and our in-group members. And so if evolution wasn’t reason enough, also culturally, we’re raised to be compassionate to others, but people don’t really talk about the importance of being compassionate and supportive to yourself.

Kimberly Snyder (01:46.922)
Hmm.

Kristin (02:11.742)
So it’s not entirely natural. The good news is, is that because we know how to be a good friend to others, we have the template for how to treat ourselves.

Kimberly Snyder (02:21.313)
So this is something we can learn through these practices and rewire those patterns. That’s good news. So writing the subtitle, what struck me first was, you’re talking about women and that your first two chapters get into this and around gender because self-compassion, of course, is important for all humans. But can you tell us about why this book focuses so much for women?

Kristin (02:27.166)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Kristin (02:47.182)
Yeah. And so really, so gender role socialization plays a role in the expression of self-compassion. To be clear, I’m not talking about biological sex or even gender identity if you’re trans or non-binary. It’s really how are you raised as a child? What shoebox were you put in? The pink shoebox or the blue shoebox? And so…

Kimberly Snyder (03:05.557)
Yeah.

Kristin (03:11.906)
First of all, there are different ways, different forms of self-compassion, what I like to call the fierce and the tender. So the tender self-compassion is more about acceptance, whereas fierce self-compassion is more about taking action, maybe speaking up, drawing boundaries. And because of gender role socialization, people raised as boys aren’t allowed to be tender. You know, they might get beat up or bullied if they’re considered too sensitive. And that’s a shame because tender self-compassion is really…

Kimberly Snyder (03:17.354)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (03:34.125)
Mm.

Kristin (03:41.666)
the healing power of self-compassion is what allows us to accept our difficult emotions, to accept ourselves, and it gives us a lot of strength and resilience. Whereas a fierce self-compassion is all about taking action, and boys, they’re encouraged to take action, but people raised as girls, I mean, there’s some, you know, flexibility in the early kind of tomboy years, but later on, if girls are considered too action-oriented, we think, you know, girls are a…

or women are aggressive or self-promoting or are too ambitious, right? Yes, exactly. And if women are, you know, for goodness sake, angry. So a man who’s angry, people believe him or they think he’s passionate. But a woman who’s angry, they think she’s crazy. And so that’s the reason I wrote my book for people who identify as woman.

Kimberly Snyder (04:12.864)
Yes.

attention seeking or yeah, all sorts of labels.

Kimberly Snyder (04:30.353)
Yes.

Kristin (04:35.786)
It’s just because it was too complicated to write a book saying, well, for men, it works this way. For women, it works that way. And also, I wrote the book when it was right in the midst of the Me Too movement. And I realized that one of the reasons, you know, it kind of took so long for many women to speak up was, there’s a lot of reasons, including power, reasons of power. But part of it was just we’re socialized not to speak up. We’re socialized not to make waves. And, you know, people don’t like us if we…

Kimberly Snyder (04:40.303)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (04:45.887)
Yes.

Kristin (05:05.138)
say, no, I’m sorry, I really don’t like that. Or if we draw boundaries. And so that’s really what I wanted to explore because how can we protect, how can we be compassionate and care for ourselves if we are, if we don’t feel comfortable speaking up or saying no or drawing a boundary. And that, that really harms people raised as women that they’re socialized not to do that because people want women to be nice, which means being doormats basically.

Kimberly Snyder (05:20.15)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (05:31.165)
Yes. And it’s that range, as you talked about, really embracing the whole self. So we have these different tools in our tool belt. Sometimes the acceptance, sometimes the, you know, being more forward speaking and, um, clear in our boundaries.

Kristin (05:45.286)
Exactly. So I use the metaphor of yin and yang, you know, the yang energy is more the active energy, the yin is more accepting. And according to Chinese philosophy, which I think gets it right, we need both to be healthy. That’s why there’s that symbol and both are in balance. And so what happens in society because of gender role socialization, people aren’t allowed to be healthy because they aren’t allowed to be balanced.

Kimberly Snyder (05:49.909)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (06:09.564)
Right.

Kristin (06:09.842)
And so that’s really, you know, if we want to be our true authentic selves, and everyone will express these energies in unique ways. But if we want to be healthy, we need to be allowed to be our true authentic selves. And if we’re not allowed to be one way or the other, because society tells us, you know, it goes against gender role socialization, well, that harms everyone.

Kimberly Snyder (06:32.121)
Mm-hmm. I love how you also talk about kindness a lot in your book. And I’d love for you to explain to us how we can be kind and also assertive and how that also interplays with anger. Because you have this interesting chapter about being an angry woman. Sometimes we hear, you know, anger is, you know, underneath that there’s pain. So can we use our voice, stay kind and not have to

be explosively angry. It seems like this is one of those like erratic emotions and that isn’t healthy.

Kristin (07:04.922)
Yes, yes. Well, so I mean, so it’s interesting to think of fear, self-compassion as a form of kindness. So kindness is an always just soft and tender and sweet. You know, I like to call it mama bear, self-compassion. So that mama bear energy, and by the way, everyone has access to it, whether or not your parent or your gender identity is kind of fierce protective energy. That’s an ultimate act of kindness. You know, think of the firefighter who pulls out some

Kimberly Snyder (07:15.009)
That’s right.

Kimberly Snyder (07:27.674)
Oh yes.

Kristin (07:32.97)
children who are about to be engulfed by flames. That’s an act of kindness, an act of courage and bravery. And so an act of kindness for ourself means sometimes we have to be brave and courageous. And anger has a role in this. So there’s, you know, in psychology, there’s what’s considered destructive anger and constructive anger, and there’s both. Very easy to tell the difference. Destructive anger causes harm. Constructive anger prevents harm.

Kimberly Snyder (07:59.843)
Mmm.

Kristin (08:02.046)
Right. So think about this. Someone’s about to attack you and his anger arises and you don’t have to even dehumanize the person who’s attacking you. But you certainly have to act quickly and bravely and strongly to say, no, that’s not OK. And that type of anger, which is aimed at preventing harm, is actually helpful. It really does come down to are you dehumanizing others? Once you dehumanize other people, then it’s destructive. Then you’re kind of feeding the same energy.

Kimberly Snyder (08:25.805)
Ah.

Kristin (08:31.198)
of maybe the person who’s trying to harm you. But if it’s just a very clear, no, that’s not okay. You’re a human being, it doesn’t mean you’re not worthy as a human being, but you can’t do this to me, you know, because my needs count too. That type of anger, see, the thing about anger, the re-

Kimberly Snyder (08:47.509)
That doesn’t even sound like anger, Kristen. That sounds like clear.

Kristin (08:51.838)
Well, yes,

Kimberly Snyder (08:56.979)
Yes.

Kristin (09:19.758)
It also focuses us. Anger is a very focusing emotion. So, I mean, do you call it anger or not? If you’re just defining anger as destructive anger, no, it’s not, but that energy, that physiological arousal, cortisol, for instance, of the anger focuses us, helps us be brave, lets people know there’s a problem that needs to be addressed. So that part of the anger can actually be helpful.

Kimberly Snyder (09:23.905)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (09:35.74)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (09:47.746)
Because if we aren’t angry at some of the injustices going on in the world, then we’re probably asleep. But again, we don’t have to dehumanize anyone in order to feel that kind of call to action to protect.

Kimberly Snyder (09:55.273)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (10:00.621)
Kristin, are you familiar with some of the yogic Hindu deities, these archetypes? Because as you’re speaking, I’m picturing Kali, right? She’s got the tongue out, the skulls, the most fierce. She’s smashing out the injustices and the ego, but they say she is the most compassionate.

Kristin (10:07.806)
Yes. Yes, I’ve.

Kristin (10:13.747)
Yes.

Kristin (10:22.03)
I have a picture of her on my wall for that reason. Yes, exactly. And so it is fearsome. But what Kali destroys is the illusion of separation. She destroys injustice. So it is actually an ultimate act of kindness and compassion. And so that’s why people are confused. They think that compassion is only soft and squishy. It isn’t. It can be very strong, very fierce even. But the thing is, what’s the aim?

Kimberly Snyder (10:23.893)
There you go!

Kimberly Snyder (10:28.509)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (10:33.03)
Yes.

Kristin (10:51.67)
What are people aiming for? If you’re aiming to prevent harm, to bring connection and togetherness, then it actually can be a powerful force for good and kindness.

Kimberly Snyder (10:51.711)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (11:02.237)
You know, Kristin, your work also reminds me of Durga. So I’m obviously really into yoga as well because she has 10 arms, 10 weapons that we use at certain times. So sometimes she has the book for knowledge. Sometimes she brings the lotus flower for peace. Sometimes she brings that sword to cut through BS, right? And sometimes she has her bow and arrow to take aim. So it sounds like your work is really around creating these tools so a woman can be intuitive and say, hey, this feels like

Kristin (11:06.688)
Yes.

Yeah. Yes.

Kristin (11:14.473)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (11:18.881)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (11:31.185)
I need to be assertive or more accepting. Pivot.

Kristin (11:33.638)
Yes. Well, and everyone really, again, regardless of gender identity, one way. So in psychology, compassion isn’t defined as an emotion, it’s defined as the motivation. In particular, it’s the motivation to alleviate suffering. And so really, the act of compassion is asking yourself, what do I need to alleviate my suffering? And then the answer to that question is just going to depend on your situation. Sometimes we need to take a break.

Kimberly Snyder (11:47.288)
Oh.

Kristin (12:03.826)
Sometimes we need to go easier on ourselves. Sometimes we need to kick ourselves in the pants to get off the couch and do something. Sometimes we need to protect ourselves. Sometimes we need to be more peaceful. It really just depends on the situation. That’s why a lot of these deities have so many arms because it never looks exactly one way. And if we pigeonhole ourselves into thinking compassion only looks one way.

Kimberly Snyder (12:22.898)
Yes.

Kristin (12:30.018)
then we’re limiting our ability to help.

Kimberly Snyder (12:34.237)
Hmm. So can you talk to us a little bit about guilt? Because I know myself and a lot of women have a lot of guilt. I didn’t do this enough or I’m a recovering perfectionist personally. That takes a lot of energy to sort of rehash things and you know, we can learn lessons, but we can’t take back the past. So can you tell a little bit about your program and your research around guilt?

Kristin (12:46.454)
Yes.

Kristin (12:53.45)
Yes.

Kristin (12:59.218)
Yeah, and so I think you’re also talking about a few different things. There’s also making mistakes, which is more general. So guilt in particular is when you’ve harmed someone and you feel badly about harming someone, right? So guilt actually can be healthy to the extent that it leads to making repairs. So if you have harmed someone, they’d be apologizing or try to come to some sort of understanding.

Kimberly Snyder (13:22.061)
Uh huh.

Kristin (13:28.318)
as opposed to shame, which is about, you know, instead of I made a mistake, it’s like I am a mistake. Shame is self-referential. It’s all about really feeling the self as unworthy because of something you’ve done. Shame is not healthy. Shame actually doesn’t usually help the person you’ve harmed or yourself. Guilt, as long as it’s healthy guilt and isn’t accompanied by, you know, I’m a terrible person or, you know, as long as it’s appropriate, it can be healthy.

Kimberly Snyder (13:34.856)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (13:42.505)
right.

Kristin (13:58.326)
I mean, making mistakes sometimes, sometimes we may feel guiltier, but more often it’s more like we feel shame. I made a mistake, maybe I didn’t study right and I didn’t get the outcome I needed. Then we might feel shame or harsh self-criticism. So the beautiful thing about self-compassion is it allows us to learn from our mistakes. If we feel shame because of our mistakes, what it means is we may give up.

Kimberly Snyder (14:13.608)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (14:21.876)
Yes.

Kristin (14:27.914)
or we may be so full of shame, we just can’t see clearly because we’re just hanging our head in shame. It also means we develop fear of failure. We aren’t willing to take learning risks if we know that if we try and fail, we’re gonna shame ourselves. So the research is very clear that self-compassion is a more effective motivator than self-criticism and shame because it means it’s, you know, we try our best. If we do, if we don’t reach our goal, we say, oh well.

Kimberly Snyder (14:39.396)
No.

Kristin (14:57.186)
That’s only human. That’s how people learn. How can I learn from this? What might I do differently next time? So people are more motivated to keep trying even after setbacks. They have less performance anxiety because it’s not such a big deal if they try and they fail and they persist longer in their efforts. So it’s actually a good thing to motivate yourself with compassion and kindness. You know, again, you can’t lie to yourself and say,

you know, oh, well, so what I didn’t do well and it doesn’t really matter. Because if it does matter, then you want to say, hmm, I really messed up. How can I, how can I do something differently next time? But as long as you’re honest and you’re giving yourself constructive criticism, as opposed to, you know, shameful, destructive criticism is actually a very, very helpful mind state.

Kimberly Snyder (15:46.857)
And you mentioned mindfulness. So first we have to be aware of that self-talk and then through your work, then we, then we can say, okay, I’m going down this path. Now I can choose this other path until that becomes the norm.

Kristin (15:51.955)
Yes.

Kristin (16:00.478)
Yes, there’s actually three components to self compassion, and they’re all essential. So the first thing that really happens is mindfulness. So mindfulness is the ability to be aware of what’s happening as it’s happening. So we need to be aware that we’re suffering, for instance, as opposed to just pretending like I’m just going to get through it, and I’m not going to acknowledge that I’m having a hard time. Or else what happens is we, we get lost in our suffering, and there’s no perspective.

Kimberly Snyder (16:18.369)
Yeah.

Kristin (16:29.578)
So we need mindfulness to be aware of what’s happening, but with some balance around it. And then we need the kindness, which we’ve talked about, the fact that we’re constructive, we’re encouraging, we’re warm, we’re helpful. But the third component we haven’t mentioned yet, which is really key, I term common humanity. And that’s just the wisdom, the understanding that the human condition is imperfect. And of course,

Kimberly Snyder (16:48.714)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (16:56.29)
We know this logically, but when we fail or we make a mistake or we feel badly about ourselves, kind of irrationally, we feel like I’m the only one this has happened to, or I’m the only one. And everyone else is leading a normal, perfect life and it’s just me who’s failed. And that really makes our suffering so much worse because not only are we hurting, we feel all alone. We feel something’s wrong with us because of what we’re going through. So compassion, by definition, is a connected way of being.

Kimberly Snyder (17:24.995)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (17:25.078)
as opposed to pity. If I pity you, that means I look down on you. If I feel compassion for you, it means, hey, I’ve been there. I feel some connection to you. So it’s the same thing with self-compassion. We feel connected to others in our struggles. And that helps us remember that we aren’t alone, right? And that is part of the human experience. So we don’t have to be so upset about making mistakes. This is how we learn and grow.

Kimberly Snyder (17:47.865)
Yes. And to like that softness that you mentioned instead of this rigidity and beating ourselves up, which just feels so, um, like it builds over time that stress.

Kristin (17:54.59)
Yes, exactly.

Kristin (18:01.662)
Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve written a book that’s coming out this later this fall about burnout. So one of the things is if you if you stress yourself out, first of all, life is stressful, your job may be stressful, COVID was stressful, you know, the world is stressful. And if you criticize yourself, or you shame yourself, it makes it even doubly stressful. And that’s why with all this stress, we don’t have the tools to cope with it.

Kimberly Snyder (18:08.822)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (18:23.969)
Mmm.

Kristin (18:28.81)
you’re probably likely to burn out at some point, you know, or maybe you’re a caregiver and all your care goes out outward and not inward. You’re going to burn out from the stress of being a caregiver. So one of the really robust findings of the research is that self-compassion reduces stress and burnout because again, it gives you the resources to handle those stressful moments or those difficult moments. So when compassion flows inward, it gives you the resource to therefore have it continue to flow outward.

Kimberly Snyder (18:47.013)
Ugh.

Kimberly Snyder (18:59.265)
So in your work, Kristin, in your research, are you seeing that this work is, it’s something that is happening in the moment. And there’s also, um, is there a reflection piece of this where you can journal and write about it, right? Because in the moment, sometimes it’s a bit murky when we’re retraining.

Kristin (19:18.822)
Yes. So there are, you know, as many ways to practice self-compassion as there are human beings. Self-compassion is really just a mindset in which mindfulness, a sense of common humanity and kindness are present. And there’s so many ways to get there. So for some people, it may be just physical touch. Maybe just putting your hands on your heart, and that helps people feel more connected and warm and kind of present with themselves.

Kimberly Snyder (19:36.149)
Mm.

Kristin (19:46.45)
Journaling, as you mentioned, is a really good way to practice self-compassion. You might either just write yourself a paragraph of mindfulness, you know, turning your attention toward your difficulty, remembering you aren’t alone with common humanity and some words of kindness, or it can just be a letter. You might say, what would I write to a friend who is going through something similar? Or maybe what would that…

you know, English teacher who I adored in seventh grade, he was so kind and compassionate, what would they write to me? You know, there’s a lot of different doorways in. There’s some people meditation works. Other times you can just, really just evoke a more warm and spacious and connected mindset. Sometimes you can again, think of your grandparent who loved you, if you’re lucky enough to have such a grandparent. Or, you know, your pet.

Kimberly Snyder (20:22.025)
Yes.

Kristin (20:38.434)
It’s funny, most people have some person they’re very compassionate with, or if not a person, at least an animal in their life that they care about. Sometimes that can be a springboard for getting in touch with the feelings of compassion and then making a U-turn and turning them inward. So that’s a really fun thing about figuring out how to teach people self-compassion is there are so many doorways in.

Kimberly Snyder (20:43.597)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (21:03.893)
I love how you said to touch your heart, Kristin. And my next books are about heart coherence and the science of going into self-regulating yourself through the heart. And for me, that’s, that’s what’s really worked because I’m getting out of the thoughts that are like, ah, you know, repetitive and come fast and furious and dropping into that deeper place gives you that pause and makes it just makes me feel more expanded when I’m in here. And then the compassion, the peaceful thoughts have a chance to rise up.

Kristin (21:18.11)
Yes.

Kristin (21:29.068)
Eh.

Kristin (21:33.966)
Yes, absolutely. I mean, so the body that is, if you responsive to something like touching your heart is really one of the easiest and most powerful ways to practice self compassion.

For a few reasons, one, as you mentioned, you’re dropping out of your head, where usually the problems are and the self-criticism is into your body, which is more grounded, it’s more present. You’re also changing your physiology. So this research shows that part of what you’re doing is you’re lowering your cortisol levels and you’re increasing heart rate variability, which allows you to be responsive. So, you know, there’s a lot of different reasons why physical touch, especially warm and caring touch.

Kimberly Snyder (21:48.524)
Yes.

Kristin (22:12.818)
is a very, very powerful way to practice self-compassion. And also, if you, there’s other ways you can do it, maybe your boss just said something and you need self-compassion, you probably don’t wanna like go like this in front of your boss. You can just like fold your arms even, you know, with an intention of caring for yourself, no one needs to know. Any sort of physical touch with the intention to care is very useful.

Kimberly Snyder (22:28.853)
Thank you.

Kimberly Snyder (22:32.714)
Whoa.

Kimberly Snyder (22:36.297)
That’s right. I think I read Peter Levine talk about making this sort of container for trauma, you know, helping with trauma responses. But for me, Kristen, I either touch my heart, even if I shift to the heart, like you would always want to touch your heart in front of others, but it feels like it’s making that shift, just rewiring our nervous system.

Kristin (22:42.666)
Yes.

Kristin (22:52.372)
Yes.

internally. Absolutely. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that, some of which we have scientific explanations for and some that we don’t. But I can say from experience, and absolutely, if you can shift your almost your sense of self from your head down into your heart, almost as if this was the center of your being, it really changes the way you approach things and relate to things.

Kimberly Snyder (23:14.23)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (23:21.173)
So I’m, you know, I was reading your book and I’m just so interested in this, you know, as you mentioned, a lot of the motivation for the book was around the Me Too movement and women starting to voice up, hey, this happened to me. I was a victim of, you know, a sexual predator or aggression or whatever it is.

Kristin (23:31.351)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (23:41.105)
So when you’re taking someone through these, so many emotions come up, but when you were talking about compassion, Kristin, you were saying, you know, it’s about connection and it’s about like we’re on equal footing, but we’re this common humanity. How do you, let’s say that person starts to feel compassion for themselves that they may have fallen prey to a certain situation, but then what do we do with the energy of anger or like the victim mindset, like anger at that person versus

You know, even though they may have created harm, working to find a compassionate place for where that person is and their limitations, the perpetrator. Is that clear? It’s a long question.

Kristin (24:18.702)
Yeah, so that’s where the construct… No, but I mean, it’s a good one, right? So it’s, that’s where hopefully our anger can be constructive. By the way, if it’s not, that’s okay too. That’s only human. I mean, if someone’s harmed you, it’s only natural to have feelings of destructive anger. Maybe there’s a way you can channel them. The reason it’s not that helpful, unfortunately, is that if there’s the energy of a kind of dehumanization…

Kimberly Snyder (24:28.307)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (24:34.554)
Yes.

Kristin (24:48.646)
in your anger, even towards someone else. That’s what you sayings like, you know, it’s like picking up a hot coal to throw at someone else that actually harms you. So when you cut others out of this sense of humanity, and when you kind of harden your heart in this way, unfortunately, the person that really harms can be yourself. But saying, okay, you’re a human being, I don’t know your story, what your background is, what your genetics are, what caused you to be the way

Kimberly Snyder (24:56.358)
Yes.

Kristin (25:18.394)
And yet, boundary. I don’t want anything to do with you, perhaps. So in other words, compassion doesn’t necessarily mean forgiveness. Forgiveness in the sense of you’re gonna have normal relations with someone, that may never happen. And that’s okay if in fact you decide that’s the most self-compassionate thing to do. So, boundaries is kind of that distance at which.

Kimberly Snyder (25:21.33)
Mm.

Kristin (25:44.074)
Prentice Hemphill says that distance in which, you know, I can love you and myself simultaneously. And so for instance, family members, maybe you have a really narcissistic family member. It may be the most compassionate thing to decide to draw a boundary and maybe even cut off contact for some period of time. It all depends on the situation. But this actually can be a form of love if in fact keeping that relationship going, it just continues to be harmful.

Kimberly Snyder (25:50.207)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (26:13.445)
Yes. And then also, um, you know, in the Eastern philosophy, if we start to shift towards seeing things as for our growth, right, everything’s for our favor. Everything’s for our growth. Zeke taking out some of that, uh, strong emotional charge, like I’ve been wronged, but more, you know, I’ve tapped into more strength inside of me, or I’ve grown from this. So like you said, holding the coal, we’re not the ones that continually get burned.

Kristin (26:21.856)
Yes.

Exactly.

Kristin (26:32.072)
Yes.

Kristin (26:38.586)
Yeah, so in my book, I’ve got exercises to work with the energy of anger, because really, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with the energy of anger. It’s like this volcanic energy, as long as it’s allowed to flow freely inside of your body, and this is really important, as long as it’s balanced with more of the yin energy of the tenderness. So I actually have a lot of practices where people can

Kimberly Snyder (26:44.257)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (27:06.914)
not suppress that angry energy because if you do that it’s just going to pop out but allow it to flow freely and kind of mix and mingle with the more heart centered energy of the tenderness and you can hold both I’ll admit it’s challenging but it is possible to hold both energies together the really important thing is we don’t want to judge ourselves for feeling angry

or feel like we can’t express our anger because it’s not, you know, people won’t like us if we do. Because anger is part of the human experience. And so to the extent that we can channel our anger in a way that, again, it makes us focused, it makes us energized, it makes us courageous, it can help us feel strong. And if we do that combined with the fact that, yes, everyone’s a human being doing the best we can, and those two energies combined can lead to…

a more powerful and really self-protective response. You know, it’s been a problem for women throughout the ages that they haven’t been allowed to feel angry. You know, it’s been socialized out of them. And that’s partly why, like if you look at people who are predators, they don’t tend to prey on women who…

Kimberly Snyder (28:11.108)
Mm.

Kristin (28:22.326)
get really angry because they’re too much work. They prey on the woman who kind of, oh, you know, go along with it or not gonna say anything because they’re easier targets. And that’s intentional. In other words, the history of power and equality has socialized anger out of women in part so that they won’t be upset about the unequal power situation. And so that’s where, you know, we have to think of where does power come into this as well.

and we have to recognize power and equality where it’s operating and to the extent we can try to stand up to it because that’s not compassionate.

Kimberly Snyder (29:00.365)
There’s just these injustices, Kristin, you know, that I was just thinking about a friend of mine who was date raped in college and she told her parents and she, you know, wanted to do things and her parents were like, you know, this is going to go on so long. It’s going to ruin your college career. It’s going to go like this. So they told her to silence it and she did. And so, you know, now a couple of decades later, she’s in therapy, but just there’s this suppressed anger.

Kristin (29:28.322)
That’s right.

Kimberly Snyder (29:29.005)
There’s a lot of, I mean, imagine how you would feel if your, you know, parents were like, not supportive.

Kristin (29:35.134)
And it’s so common. It’s so common. And that’s why we have to be able to risk with anger that, yeah, maybe we’ll get a little too angry and maybe people won’t like us as much, but at least we own our authentic self. At least we still have our voice. Because the consequences especially, that’s largely why I wrote the book for women. The consequences have been so severe.

Kimberly Snyder (29:38.075)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (29:50.443)
Yeah.

Kristin (30:01.65)
of suppressing that fear side of woman just so that they’ll play along and not make waves. And it’s really harmed us. And there may even be a time when maybe things are a little bit out of balance. You know, I think that I think that’s even okay if it’s developmental stage. What’s really important is that we really start to speak up for ourselves and worry a little less about people’s opinions of us and more about our opinions of ourselves. You know?

Kimberly Snyder (30:29.411)
Right. Well, there’s this transition stage, I can say for myself, Kristin, where it’s more, you know, listening to my intuition, as you mentioned, coming back to balance because things can be suppressed. We have these patterns. So I know not to trust myself necessarily if I’m very emotional, but when I’m calm and I can hear like, this isn’t right, or there’s something going on here, it doesn’t sit right with me. And then we can learn to trust, hey, I have to say something, I need to speak up.

Kristin (30:36.724)
Yes.

Kristin (30:45.319)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (30:56.445)
a boundary here, whatever it is.

Kristin (30:58.798)
That’s right. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with internal family systems, it’s the type of psychology developed by a man named Dick Schwartz. But I think it was very insightful. We have different parts of ourselves. And usually that angry part is a protector part. And it’s playing an important role for us. But.

Kimberly Snyder (31:06.301)
Yes, to an exclusive spot. Yeah.

Kristin (31:19.918)
If we don’t allow that protector to be there, or if we judge it, or we think we shouldn’t have it, what happens is it takes over the whole system. And so we have no awareness of some of the other voices that say, well, maybe you shouldn’t send that email quite like that, or maybe you should rephrase that, or get some other perspectives. But when we accept that protector part, we thank it, and we really appreciate the role it’s playing for us.

Kimberly Snyder (31:37.65)
Yes.

Kristin (31:44.502)
then it doesn’t have to take over the system. And then it can actually work with other parts, so that we can come up with like kind of a team based response, which is usually a little, you can still be very strong, but a little more effective.

Kimberly Snyder (32:00.321)
Mm-hmm. Well, in your book, Kristin, again, back to fierce self-compassion. And again, every time I see the title, I can’t help but think of Kali. I love it so much. So what are some specific tools? Maybe you can share with us a little bit, which obviously go in much greater depth in the book for anyone that’s saying, hey, I’m trying to, you know, one of your chapters about caring for others without losing ourselves or just in practice.

Kristin (32:09.419)
Yeah.

Kristin (32:17.844)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (32:24.001)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (32:25.533)
And you talked a little bit about, you know, we talked about awareness and the three things, but what are some other tools that someone can walk away with and start using maybe today?

Kristin (32:34.074)
Yeah, so there’s something I’ve got several different versions of what’s called the self-compassion break in that book. The self-compassion break is what I mentioned where you just bring in one part mindfulness, one part common humanity, and one part kindness. It’s like how do you make a self-compassion cookie? Those are the ingredients. But in their fierce form, they take a unique form. So for instance, when the aim is to protect yourself,

Kindness manifests as bravery, right? Common humanity manifests as a feeling of empowerment when we realize we aren’t alone, when we realize that when we stand up and speak up for ourselves, we’re speaking up for a lot of people, we’re speaking up for our human rights. And mindfulness in this case is real clarity. So I actually call it brave, empowered clarity, these three components, when it’s used in the service of protecting ourself.

Kimberly Snyder (33:22.368)
Mmm.

Kristin (33:30.686)
So you can, for instance, write a paragraph of clarity, just call it out, what’s really happening. Just be courageous and say what’s happening. Don’t downplay it, don’t swoop it under the rug. In your own journal, for instance, to your journal, maybe just yourself.

Kimberly Snyder (33:41.502)
in your own journal.

Yes, you don’t have to worry about someone reading it. Yeah.

Kristin (33:48.586)
Remember that whenever we go beyond the confines of our separate self and we remember we’re part of the larger whole, not only do we feel less ashamed, we also do feel more empowered. So reframing what you’re going through, for instance, maybe someone’s mistreating you at work. If you speak up with them, not only are you doing this for yourself, you’re doing it for everyone else in a similar situation. And that can be very empowering.

Right. And then the bravery of, for instance, feeling brave enough to speak out, knowing that it’s actually an act of kindness, not only for you, but for everyone else who might find themselves in a similar position. So those are the types of things you can, you can do just remembering those three components as you deal with whatever challenges facing you. That’s one way. And going back to the touch, which is another way, you know, you talked about hands on heart.

Kimberly Snyder (34:26.527)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (34:42.026)
Yes.

Kristin (34:42.474)
a little more helpful for tender self compassion. But with their self compassion, and a lot of it is like standing up straight, rolling your shoulders back, you know, you can even do like the Wonder Woman arms akimbo, you know, some of these kind of power poses, they can help you feel more empowered, especially the body posture. That’s another way you can allow that fierce energy to flow.

Kimberly Snyder (34:50.943)
Mmm. It’s fancy.

Kristin (35:07.13)
So there are a lot of different ways that you can practice this. I think the biggest thing is remembering that you have the right to assert yourself, to protect yourself, to meet your own needs, and also to motivate a change is something that’s unhealthy either in the situation or in your own behavior. This is part of your human rights.

Kimberly Snyder (35:30.255)
Right? Yes. And he has, you know, when I think about, I was reading a book, I have two sons and I was reading them a book on Susan B. Anthony and it just like, wow, like this was a hundred years ago. Right? It’s like we weren’t voting at a certain point and then just how it shifted. And I think about, you know, culturally, my mother came from the Philippines, which actually is more matriarchal.

Kristin (35:37.019)
Uh-huh.

Ah.

Kristin (35:43.936)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (35:55.573)
But there are certain cultures where it’s different. There’s just so much that goes into this. And here we are, we have the opportunity to reframe things and shift things.

Kristin (35:56.241)
Ah.

Yes.

Kristin (36:07.53)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that’s amazing. And also just to think about that, just like you’re saying with your family and start to unpack. What are the barriers that get in the way of you being your authentic self? Because what self-compassion is in many ways is asking yourself, who, who am I really? And giving yourself permission to meet your needs, to provide for your needs, to express yourself, to, you know, to draw boundaries if you need to.

Kimberly Snyder (36:13.61)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (36:26.438)
Yes.

Kristin (36:35.918)
give yourself a break if that’s what you need, you’d be tender. Really, no one else is going to do it. They might. You may be lucky enough, but even if you’re lucky enough to have a wonderful partner and friends, if you don’t let that kindness in or if you’re really unkind to yourself, then it’s going to fall on deaf ears, all the kindness of others. So in many ways, kindness has to start at home for it to really sink in and help support us.

Kimberly Snyder (36:39.979)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (37:04.641)
You know, this idea of authenticity is really interesting today, especially for teens, pre-teens, very young women in the world of TikTok, right, in social media, because everybody has this online persona. Everybody’s on their phone all day, as you know, Kristin. So I always tell people, we need space, we need some stillness, we need meditation, we need to get away from the noise, because it’s even so hard for many. And many people say to me, I don’t know who I really am. You know, I don’t even know when I’m hungry.

Kristin (37:14.09)
Yes.

Kristin (37:19.903)
Yes.

Kristin (37:25.364)
Yes.

Kristin (37:32.768)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (37:34.313)
I don’t know what my authentic self is. I don’t know what balance is because there’s so many voices.

Kristin (37:40.302)
Yes, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I grew up before the onslaught of social media, and I can’t imagine it’s so difficult now. So it’s hard enough just being in the social world, wondering what other people are thinking of you, especially as an adolescent. But now you’ve got, you know, concrete ways to focus on how many likes do I have? Or what are people saying about me? You know, are they commenting on my video?

Kimberly Snyder (37:49.906)
Yeah.

Bye.

Kimberly Snyder (38:03.94)
My man’s off.

Kristin (38:07.066)
it’s a lot harder and youth are really suffering because of it. So we actually have a self-compassion training program for teenagers, which is so helpful with people when kids can learn about the importance of being there for themselves and not to be so invested in what other people think of them. So this is where the difference of self-compassion and self-esteem comes in, which is one of the things I’ve emphasized in my work.

Kimberly Snyder (38:11.036)
I think so.

Kimberly Snyder (38:15.477)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (38:26.126)
Oh good.

Kristin (38:35.382)
So self-esteem, the word esteem is a judgment or an evaluation of worth. Do I think I’m good? Do I think I’m bad? Am I kind of somewhere in between? And it’s usually based on social approval, right? Also, appearance is a really big determinant. And then achievement and those things that are important to you, whether it’s school or work or career.

And so you might say self-esteem is a fair weather friend because sometimes it’s there for you, but sometimes it’s not. It deserts you when you fail, you feel rejected, or you don’t achieve what you want. Self-compassion is also a form of self-worth, but it simply comes from being a flawed human being. You don’t need to do anything other than being a human being to have self-compassion, which means it’s a true and stable friend. Other people may not like you.

Kimberly Snyder (39:11.402)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (39:23.092)
Mmm.

Kristin (39:25.746)
or you may fail at something or maybe you don’t look the way you want to look, but you’re still a human being. Yes, therefore your self-worth is unconditional and that’s a big reason why it’s so much more powerful than self-esteem because it gives this stability, this unshakable core of self-worth that self-esteem doesn’t. And so social media is all about self-esteem. Do people like me? Do I look a certain way because I want to feel good about myself?

Kimberly Snyder (39:27.646)
Yes.

or someone breaks up with you. Yeah.

Kristin (39:54.39)
With self-compassion, you circumvent all that and just go straight to the core of, I’m worthy just because I’m a human being. I don’t need all this to be worthy. And then your decision to take part in those things is gonna depend on is it something that interests me or not. Maybe it is, that’s great. But if not, I don’t need to spend time with it.

Kimberly Snyder (40:10.196)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (40:14.829)
Right. And, or yeah, my, my sense of self doesn’t have to go up and down so much with what other people think of me. And also connecting more to our values, I would think, right? If we start to.

Kristin (40:19.794)
Exactly. That’s right. Yeah.

Kristin (40:28.062)
Yes, absolutely. So if self-compassion is the question, asking yourself the question, what do I need to alleviate suffering, to be happy, to be well, then what you value is going to directly determine what you need because, you know, people with very different values are going to have what they need to fulfill those, that could be very different. So even just asking the question, what’s really important to me?

Kimberly Snyder (40:41.932)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (40:52.457)
Yes.

Kristin (40:52.498)
is an act of self-compassion because it shows you care enough to ask yourself and inquire and spend some time clarifying your values. And when you live a life that’s in accord with your values, the research shows very clearly you’ll feel like your life is more meaningful, you’ll be more satisfied with your life, you’ll be happier. So it’s really worth doing.

Kimberly Snyder (41:00.501)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (41:13.857)
Beautiful. Well, I think even having the conversation around self-compassion is so important because hear a lot about compassion, not so much around self-compassion. So thank you so much for your wonderful book, Kristin, once again, it’s called Fierce Self-Compassion, How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive. Is there anything else you want to share, Kristin, or where else can we find out more about you and your work and get this book?

Kristin (41:17.759)
Yes.

Kristin (41:41.626)
Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that’s really exciting, a couple of months ago, I started something called the self-compassion community. Because self-compassion isn’t natural in our culture, doesn’t encourage it, I thought it would be really important to create like an online platform.

Kimberly Snyder (41:49.919)
Mmm.

Kristin (41:58.838)
where people can help each other practice. So we have live events with me, other self-compassion experts, we’ve got mentor sessions and a lot of different styles of learning. And so if people are interested in going farther, if you go to my website, selfcompassion.org, you can actually join the community. It’s very inexpensive. It’s real a heart’s project of mine to really expand the ways that people can learn this skill because…

Kimberly Snyder (42:02.389)
Wonderful.

Kristin (42:24.65)
It’s not totally easy and it’s not totally natural. And it really helps to do it with others who are thinking the same way that you are thinking about this. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (42:33.537)
Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing that. We will link to it in the show notes as well, as well as yes, directly to the book over at mysaluna.com. Remember that you will get a transcript of Kristin and I’s conversation, these links, as well as other shows I think you would enjoy. So Kristin, once again, thank you so much for sharing your heart, your wisdom, your Kali energy with us today.

Kristin (42:38.646)
Wonderful.

Kristin (42:59.344)
Thanks Kimberly.

Kimberly Snyder (43:00.669)
And we will be back here Thursday as always for our next Q&A show. Take great care and sending you all much love.