This week’s topic: How to Optimize Your Metabolic Health with Dr. Casey Means
I am so excited to have a very special guest here with me today, who is not only an amazing doctor and author of the new book, Good Energy, the surprising connection between metabolism and limitless health. She is a dear, dear friend of mine and I love her so much. Dr. Casey Means. I also want to point out some of your amazing achievements, number one being your beautiful heart. But also you are the co -founder of Levels, a health technology company that is dealing with a metabolic health crisis. You served on the faculty of Stanford University, graduated from Stanford Medical School, as we’ll talk about here in our show today.
Casey Means Best Selling Book
Good Energy: The Surprising Connection Between Metabolism and Limitless Health
Topics Covered
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:55 The Disconnect in the Healthcare System
06:05 Taking a Holistic Approach to Health
08:49 The Impact of Cravings and Nourishing Our Cells
12:02 Misconceptions Around Sugar and the Importance of Real Food
14:47 Protecting and Supporting Our Mitochondria for Optimal Health
21:51 Case Study: Addressing Root Causes of Health Issues
31:40 The Importance of Sunlight and Circadian Rhythm
34:30 The Connection Between Sleep and Metabolic Health
39:13 Body Awareness and Self-Care for Optimal Health
49:44 The Role of Whole Foods and Fiber in Gut and Mitochondrial Health
About Dr. Casey Means
Casey Means, MD is a Stanford-trained physician and co-founder of Levels, a health technology company with the mission of reversing the world’s metabolic health crisis. Her book on metabolic health and Good Energy, was released on May 14th, 2024 with Penguin Random House. Means received her BA with honors and MD from Stanford, was President of her Stanford class, and has served on Stanford faculty. She trained in Head & Neck Surgery before leaving traditional medicine to devote her life to tackling the root cause of why Americans are sick. She has been featured in The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Women’s Health, and more.
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Transcript:
Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
Kimberly Snyder (00:00.75)
Hi loves and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited to have a very special guest here with me today, who is not only an amazing doctor and author of the new book, Good Energy, the surprising connection between metabolism and limitless health. She is a dear, dear friend of mine and I love her so much. Dr. Casey Means. Casey, thank you so much for being here with me today. I’m so grateful to be here. This is so wonderful.
Well, I loved your new book. I also want to point out some of your amazing achievements, number one being your beautiful heart. But also you are the co -founder of Levels, a health technology company that is dealing with a metabolic health crisis. You served on the faculty of Stanford University, graduated from Stanford Medical School, as we’ll talk about here in our show today. You were going down this pathway of being a head and neck surgeon before you sort of veered off.
And you are so passionate about not just getting people not to be sick, but getting people to be healthy. So one amazing story you have, Casey, and thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. We’ve also connected so much spiritually, and I love that you really connected with Yogananda. You loved you are more than you think you are. You’re a meditator. We go to some of the same meditation centers. So there’s this.
holistic beauty and wisdom that I see in you as well. Thank you. I don’t even know where we start, but one of the things that I love in your book is you share a little bit about expanding out and how so much of medicine has gotten really specialized. You were fifth year surgical student and you was like three inches of the human body that you were going to focus on for the rest of your life.
There was this wake up call saying, hey, it’s not just this one thing, but seeing things more holistically. What was it that sort of started fueling that fire to see that, hey, we need to take a wider lens here? Yeah. I think fundamentally for me, it was being so deep in training, nine years in, four years of medical school, almost five years of surgical residency. Nine years in. Nine years in. So my whole 20s, going towards this. And…
Kimberly Snyder (02:25.454)
looking around me at what’s happening in our country and in our world and seeing that people are actually, we’re all getting sicker every year. Like our health of the human species and by extension, so many other species in the world, it’s not going well. We are getting sicker every year. There’s no trends in modern industrialized societies where people are getting healthier. And so we’re investing such a monumental amount of resources into the healthcare system.
And yet, outcomes are getting worse every year. And so I’m in the hospital, day in and day out, in the operating room, drilling into people’s skulls. And I’m like, what are we doing? It’s not working. It’s literally not working. I mean, yes, of course, for this sinusitis patient in front of me, we can relieve some of their sinus pressure by doing this surgery. But at the mass scale, it’s not working. The more we spend, the sicker we’re getting. So that was sort of one of the big wake up calls of like,
Maybe we have the wrong approach. Maybe we were focusing on the wrong thing. And as I trace that thread a lot deeper, ultimately it led me to this realization that our system is based on the wrong footing. Our entire health care system, and I would say our entire society, is fundamentally based on disconnection on every level. When you look at the Western paradigm of the body, it’s so much about fragmentation. Yes. And this gets to the point about like,
I was literally focused on three square inches of the body when I was in my otology, my ear training. You’re super laser focused on this little teeny minute part of the body. And to rise the ranks of the Western health care system, it’s about how specialized can you get. So we are obsessed with and we actually celebrate silos. We see each part as separately and we treat that way. When in fact, the body is a totally connected thing,
And what’s wild to me is that actually the more we invent new specialties in healthcare, the sicker we’re getting. So we now have over 100 medical specialties practiced in the United States and our life expectancy is going down. I’m laughing because it’s funny. It’s just so absurd and seems so…
Kimberly Snyder (04:41.678)
obvious when you shine a light on it that there needs to be a major change. Yeah, there’s something fundamentally broken about how our bodies are working in the modern Western world. There’s a fundamental issue that actually underlies most all the diseases, chronic diseases we’re seeing in the Western world. That is what we would call metabolic dysfunction. It’s literally the core invisible process inside ourselves of how we power ourselves that we know that
nine out of the 10 leading causes of death in the US now in the modern world are fundamentally rooted in. And yet we don’t practice actually supporting that process. We practice playing whack -a -mole with the symptoms in different parts of the body that stem from that process. So my re -imagination for both people and the healthcare system is how do we actually rebuild the way we think about health on a foundation of the interconnectedness of the body.
and not just the interconnectedness of all the different parts of the body, but also the interconnectedness between the body and everything else in our environment, because it’s our environment that’s making us sick right now and our disconnection from it. And so how do we rebuild the American healthcare system and really Western medicine on a foundation of connection rather than silos and disconnection, which is not working and which is actually hurting us both spiritually and physically? Goosebumps.
But also Casey, knowing you personally, it’s even, I feel like it’s even more than that. It’s the healthcare system, yes, but it’s this connection to self, right? Because there’s the body and then there’s the mind and then there’s the soul and there’s all of us spiritually and all of it affects our health, right? All of it affects the physical body. All of it affects our hormones. For me, Casey, I was siloed into nutrition at first, my first three books, two books about nutrition. And then I started expanding and saying,
There’s also what we call today the cornerstones. There’s the body, there’s emotional well -being, there’s spiritual growth. And I love in your book Good Energy, you have this part where you’re talking about awe and you’re talking about wonder and you’re talking about just being inspired in what you’re reading and taking time to journal. And so your approach is not just one thing. Yes, food is very important and people need to be educated about food.
Kimberly Snyder (06:59.31)
but you have this deep understanding that it’s really about this totality. Well, I think we’re like, we’re truly living with our eyes closed right now in this world. We are in this distraction industrial complex of technology and busyness and consumerism. And I think the true root cause of why we’re sick right now is that we have forgotten the truth, which is that we are each a mirror.
Like the fact that we exist and the fact that we each have consciousness. If you, if we stopped and meditated on that for literally two seconds, we would realize like this is ecstatically precious. Like what we get to experience. I mean, we are this brief moment of consciousness in an eternal, infinite expanding universe. And we have the ability to love and we have the ability to think and it’s
It’s a miracle beyond measure. I mean, it almost like brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it. And yet we have our heads down. We are locked in this forgetting of our true nature. And so everything that’s making us sick, I believe, is a scarcity -based illusion that we’re living in, driving us to try and ameliorate our existential angst about scarcity.
by stuffing anything into our body that makes us feel temporarily good. And so you think about what is actually making us sick. What’s making us sick is our totally ultra processed nutrient devoid industrial diet. It is the fact that we are not sleeping enough because we’re staying up working on our devices. Blue light. We’re not moving. It’s the blue light. It’s the environmental toxins. It’s all of these things. It’s all the dopamine triggers. It’s the food, the, you know, the…
the addiction to our social media, the porn, the gambling, all the things that we just use to just kind of make us feel better, which if we sat in a state of awe for this miracle of being alive, for the miracle of consciousness, for those who are more spiritually based, the miracle of channeling spirit through this form of our bodies and understanding this true nature of our bodies as a process that is one with nature, I think.
Kimberly Snyder (09:19.566)
When I think about how could we really fix everything in our healthcare system, it would come down to, I think, one Taoist statement that I think about and I love so much, which is this idea that human life is a process, not an entity. And we have confused human life for a thing. I’m Casey, I’m a thing, and I’m alive, and then I die. You’re Kimberly, I’m Casey, you’re a thing, I’m a thing. What’s this identity? We’re all separate. Identity, ego. Yes. And if we could actually connect with the fact that we…
on a biologic, biochemical level, are actually a swarming hive of atoms that’s constantly exchanging matter with everything around us. We eat 50 to 70 metric tons of food in our lifetime that’s constantly re -3D printing our body. We are actually the only reason we don’t see ourselves as a swirl of matter connecting with everything else is because of the limitation of our visual system. And so if we could connect with the fact that we are a process, not an entity, we would have so much more respect.
for the relationship between us and everything around us, the photons coming from the sun, the oxygen coming from the plants, the food that we’re eating that incorporates into ourselves. And if we could do that, I think we would realize that we are in a fundamentally abundant, harmonious, miraculous world. And we would stop trying to stuff our pain with these things that are now hurting our health. So yes, I really believe that it’s that sense of awe as the basis.
of our health journey that helps us make those hard diet and lifestyle decisions that we all want to do. and wonder because like you said, if we really respected this miracle of life, we would treat this bodily temple differently. And also holistically, Casey, so many people eat and I, you know, I…
totally relate having eating disorders in the past and being really addicted to crunchy things like chips and pretzels, not so much the sweets, but things that I could kind of crunch down on and sort of like cathartic to release tension. If we could find tools for really managing our emotional wellbeing, like these feelings that we have, which I think a lot of us lack, we wouldn’t just reach for those.
Kimberly Snyder (11:32.878)
They end dates all the time, whether it’s the cookies or the soda or whatever it is. So like going back to, I don’t think we see ourselves as whole beings. Many of us are disconnected from that. And the energy of how we’re feeling and these sensations and emotions is so important to have these tools to deal with as well. Totally. Because otherwise it gets sort of projected out into the foods we’re eating. Yeah. And I also, I mean, you just talked about the idea of cravings. Like cravings fascinate me immensely because…
We are, in our culture, we are totally gripped by cravings. I mean, you think about almost 80 % of Americans now are overweight or obese. Yes, shocking. Shocking. It’s amazing. And so in our country, we are actually, we are literally eating ourselves to death. And that is so unnatural. There’s literally, like, there’s no obese giraffes out there. Like, no other species are actually eating themselves.
into the grave, into sickness. And we are. And so as a young as infancy, kids are dying for the sugar. And so I think so much about cravings and spirituality, because on two levels. One is that so many spiritual traditions talk about how attachment is the root of suffering. And cravings are a form of attachment. We’re attached to wanting something so badly. And I think about this.
fundamentally on the biochemical level, cravings are a sign from our body that they’re not getting what they need. If our cells are not getting what they need, they will drive us to continue eating until they get what they need. So there’s a conversation molecularly happening between the food that we put into our body and the cells of our gut and our bodies. And when they match, when the cells get what they need from the stuff, the 70 metric tons of food we put in,
we effortlessly just stop having cravings. So I like to think about it with this sort of sense of compassion, like, and to get kind of technical, it’s like, okay, we’ve got these L cells of our gut and they have nutrient receptors. And when that nutrient receptor binds to the right nutrient, we will produce a satiety hormone that relieves our sense of craving. And so this is why I focus so much on for people in the health journey, just start with real.
Kimberly Snyder (13:53.118)
whole foods from good soil, because the soil is what injects, of course, the nutrients into the food. And if we can just, it doesn’t matter if you’re vegan or you’re keto or you’re paleo, if it’s real high quality, unprocessed food, which will have the maximum nutrient composition, it often will just effortlessly let us move into a sense of peace with cravings because we are meeting the needs of the cells, just like if…
a baby is crying, like our cravings and our symptoms are sort of like a baby crying. It’s this beautiful entity not getting its needs met. So from that state of compassion, like that’s what drives me to eat real food. You know, not like, because the science showed me to, but because I want to help do whatever I can to meet the needs of these precious little cells that if I give them what they need,
They’ll do everything to give me a beautiful life. It’s that simple, but I can’t deprive them of their core need. And ultra processed food represents depriving your cells of these molecules that ultimately help it reach its highest purpose as a cell, which is function and processing of energy properly. And that all bubbles up when those 40 trillion cells have their needs met. We get this happy, beautiful.
healthy life, which then lets us go on to do the higher level things, like reach our highest calling and our spiritual development and things like that. So. Beautiful. Beautiful. And yet, Casey, so many people are over -complicating things. And you look at all these packaged foods, right? So, Arya Veda, for instance, talks about these six tastes, and one of them is Madura, which is sweet. And so naturally, you look at some of the easiest foods to access if we were in the forest or the jungle, it’s fruit, right? My kids eat a lot of fruit. I eat a lot of fruit.
There’s a lot of people that are scared of fruit. And we used to have a glass of juice bar at the Four Seasons and people would say, no banana, but triple the protein powder. Right? So we think about this whole beautiful package of berries or whatever type of fruit you’re eating. And I know when my kids eat the fruit, they don’t…
Kimberly Snyder (16:07.406)
And for myself as well, I’m not craving sugary things because that sweet taste is satisfied. There is a sort of fundamental need in our bodies to have all these different natural tastes play out. Did you see that in your work too, Casey, where people are so scared of any form of sugar? Now, of course, there’s certain conditions where people may need to avoid all sweet fruit for a while or anything. But now I’m talking about juice, but I’m talking about whole fruits and even lower sugar.
green apples and berries. But people, I see a lot of people that are scared of fruit. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s something that’s really gotten distorted in the conversation. Because even with people with type 1 diabetes, you look at what Cyrus Kimbada and his partner in Mastering Diabetes, Robbie, what they’re doing. And he’s literally called the papaya man. He is a type 1 diabetic individual who basically eats mostly fruit. And he’s totally dropped his A1C. I love it. All the fiber.
Yeah, and so, and of course the keto people trying to reverse diabetes would say that’s heretical, but he has the data to show that in him and thousands of people in this program, it works. And so I think there’s a, what makes me sad is that people have become afraid of specific types of foods when really all we should be afraid of, and we shouldn’t really be afraid of anything, but if there’s a food we should be afraid of, it is ultra processed food of any kind. And because when we give the body natural foods, natural foods,
And again, I just have to repeat it, grown in good soil, because that’s actually going to change the molecular composition of the food and make it as rich as possible and more of that life force in the food. If we are eating real food, we will trigger our satiety mechanisms. So there are people who are literally eating almost all fruit and are quite healthy. And there are people eating all meat. And many of them have very healthy biomarkers. And they’re very happy. The commonality is that they are not eating
ultra processed sugar. So I think it is a sad thing that we’ve confused a fear of sugar in any form, like in fruit or sweet potatoes and such, for what’s really the problem, which is the concentrated ultra processed sugar that’s in close to 70 % of the food on our shelves that is the real thing. When it’s that concentrated coupled with food that is so devoid of nutrients that it doesn’t trigger society,
Kimberly Snyder (18:31.918)
satiety, then we will eat an astronomical more amount and we will get sick. So I think when we eat real foods, we self -regulate. And that could be fruit, and that could be meat. But it’s about the fact that it is this complex. And we can’t fully even understand all the things that are in a whole food. There’s thousands and thousands of molecules that are having this alchemical effect on our cellular biology. So I think to me, in all the study I’ve done of nutrition, it’s the
It’s the quality and the relationship with the food that is the common denominator, not a particular dietary dogma. Well, I love how you said the body heals, it rejuvenates when it’s close to nature, when it’s living in nature. And we had on here a couple of weeks ago, Dr. Michael Greger from the English book. yes, yes, yes, of course. How not die. He knows exactly, and How Not to Age, now his new book. And he knows, in our community, we drink a lot of…
low in green smoothies. And he pointed out a study that it was one week of drinking green smoothies, there was a 40 % reduction in CRP. And it was like the fastest in medical history from a dietary intervention. Very simple green smoothies, Casey, lots of green vegetables, some lemon juice in there. And our recipe, this was Dr. Joel Fuhrman’s recipe for what they studied, but ours has, you know, high fiber pears and things like that. So it’s like, guys, we have access to this.
It’s amazing. And it’s amazing, right? And it’s simple, which I think is a main, a big message because there’s so much confusion. And one thing I also loved in your book, Casey, is that you share from your heart and I, you know, my heart goes out to you about losing your mother. I lost my mother as well, which we’ve shared about. Tell us a little bit about what you think could have been different because there’s a section in the book and she seems so lovely and so beautiful and so happy.
But you said at one point she was trying to eat healthy and she was exercising. So from your perspective, you know, talking about metabolic health, what could have shifted her, like the outcome here? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, for me, my mom’s story is just like, it’s so archetypal about what so many Americans I think are going through today, which is that she was essentially this like amazing patient. She…
Kimberly Snyder (20:55.598)
went to all her specialist appointments and she took all the pills and she did what they said, but she never healed. And I think that’s what a lot of Americans are feeling right now is that it’s like they are dependent on the system and they are going to the eight different specialist visits, but they’re not actually getting the outcome they want, which is to feel absolutely incredible and to like get off their medication. So my mom, her story kind of started, I would say as early as her thirties, like she was,
living in New York, she was a business owner, she was, you know. What kind of business? She was in marketing and, you know, and she smoked because a lot of people did then as well and, you know, she stopped for pregnancy, but she had me later in life. I was about, she was about 40 when she had me and I was a 12 pound baby. And this is, you know, literally there’s a term for babies that large, which is fetal macrosomia, big bodied baby. And the doctors like never really,
alerted her to the fact that that could be a problem. Were you her first child? Second. And my brother was also over 11 pounds. I was 10 and a half. Really? Yes. And my mother was so tiny. Yeah. So do I fall into that category? Yeah, it’s above about eight pounds, six ounces is called fetal macrosylvia. Really? Both of my sons were almost nine pounds too. Interesting. That’s yeah.
Well, that I mean, they were clearly they’re thriving. Yeah. I think with the size that we were probably my mom had some level of insulin resistance going on that was undiagnosed. And so then I went on to be very overweight as a child. My mom went on to have trouble losing the baby weight, you know, weight loss resistance after pregnancy. She went on to have a very tough menopause, hot flashes, sleep disturbances, and then nurse 60s she just started.
kind of racking up the American belly fat. Then she had the high blood sugar. Is it, you’re a pre -diabetic? It’s fine. It’s a pre -disease. 100 million Americans have this. You’re getting older. This is what the doctors were telling her. That’s what they’re telling her. Yeah. Then she got the like high cholesterol. They gave her the statin. They were like, again, this is, you’re in your late sixties. This is very common. Literally 220 million prescriptions every year go out for statins.
Kimberly Snyder (23:03.342)
And then she got the high blood pressure. They gave her an ACE inhibitor. They’re like, yep, this is your older. And then she was 72 and she had belly pain and she got a CT scan and it turned out she had stage four widely metastatic pancreatic cancer. And 13 days after that CT scan, she was dead. And it was so fast. And you know, at the time she was seeing what people would call.
the best doctors in the world. She was being seen at Stanford and she was being seen at Mayo Clinic. And they looked at our family and they said, in all earnestness, these doctors said, my gosh, we’re so sorry. This is so unlucky. And I thought, knowing what I know about kind of more root cause health, I thought, this is not unlucky. This was completely predictable because at every level, her belly fat, her big babies, her tough menopause, her high blood sugar, cholesterol, blood pressure,
These are all warning signs. It was basically 40 years of missed warning signs, which if we had a connected view of the body, if we were looking at root causes proactively rather than just symptoms, if we were less specialized and more focused on the true physiology going on inside the body, and if the system practiced that way,
we would have approached someone like my mother with a metabolic framework saying every single one of these things is fundamentally rooted in a problem with how your cells are literally making energy from food, metabolic dysfunction. And each of these different symptoms and diseases is essentially in a different part of the body, that same process showing up. We know diabetes is a metabolic issue, high blood pressure and high cholesterol, it’s a metabolic issue. It’s…
Even cancer now is being called a metabolic disease. And then of course, belly fat, it’s a metabolic issue. So my re -imagination for the system is if we could do our research in a way that focuses on root causes, teach doctors in a way that focuses on root causes and empowers patients to understand the connecting points between their diseases, we could intervene in a way that makes a lot more sense. And so, and hopefully prevent these.
Kimberly Snyder (25:22.414)
such common outcomes that we’re seeing in America with all these leading causes of death being related to fundamental metabolic dysfunction. And so to sort of answer your question of how could it have been different for my mom, when we think about metabolic dysfunction, it’s fundamentally a problem, again, with how the body makes energy. It’s mitochondrial dysfunction. From high school biology, people probably remember the mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell. It’s what literally converts this potential energy of food energy to human energy that we can use.
And when we don’t have that working properly, when the mitochondria are synergistically damaged by so many elements of our modern industrial urbanized environment, which is what’s happening, we don’t do that conversion process of energy properly and we get underpowered cells, which then show up as different symptoms and diseases. So if my mom, if we could have a whole system and an empowerment for patients around, how do I protect my mitochondria? How do I improve the capacity of my trillions upon trillions of mitochondria?
to convert food energy properly to human energy and power my cells, I genuinely believe all those things she had would have just been avoided or melted away. And the way we do that, the way we have compassion for and protect our mitochondria is essentially, in many ways it comes down to connecting more with our source and with nature, but it’s about, it’s across what I talk about with seven pillars. It’s our relationship with food, with movement, with…
emotional health with sleep, with environmental toxins, with light and with temperature. Those are the pillars in our environment through which we can speak to the mitochondria. So it’s eating the real high quality food. It’s getting enough sleep. It’s managing our emotional health, which of course I think starts with spiritual health. Yes. It’s movement. It’s avoiding the environmental synthetic toxins that are filling our food, water and air these days. It’s getting the natural light during the day and avoiding the blue light at night.
and it’s actually having a healthier relation with temperature, which means allowing yourself to experience swings in temperature and not just always being at 72 degrees. So I think if she had – That’s a tough one for me. Yeah. But that’s sort of the idea is like, how do we actually put the mitochondria and the true root cause of so many of our diseases at the center of our interventions? And as opposed to just playing whack -a -mole with the symptoms, how do we actually support the capacity of the cell to do what it needs to do to be healthy, which is to improve mitochondrial functioning capacity?
Kimberly Snyder (27:46.862)
So specifically, Casey, with your mom, because this was going on for many years, at some point she was trying to be healthy. Yeah. But do you think maybe she was still eating processed foods for a long time? Do you think she still wasn’t exercising as much? So like in really specific terms, if this had been caught earlier, she would have said, you know, hey, whole natural foods, not these packaged foods. So I’ll tell you a little bit about what my mom was doing and why I think so. First of all,
she was caught up in, I think, the diet wars of like, what’s the right approach? She tried vegan, she tried keto, she tried these programs that said she – She was like bouncing around. Yeah, because there was no real theory of what are we really trying to do here. When you think about the mitochondria and what it needs, well, it needs to be not overburdened with like sugars and these sort of like processed substrates, and it needs the micronutrients for it to be supported. So through that lens, you would –
you know, not think, well, Nutrisense are one of these like packaged food programs. Weight Watchers. You know, it’s all about calories in those programs. And so what I would have said to my mom is, obviously stop smoking earlier because smoking is a mitochondrial toxin. She was working with a personal trainer twice a week doing sort of like light weights because it was the 90s and the early 2000s and women weren’t supposed to get buff. And so she thought, I’m working out twice a week at the trainer. That’s fine. What I would have told my mom is,
for mitochondrial health, you need to be resistance training two to three times a week. And that doesn’t mean in a gym, it means lifting heavy things. What about walking up hills? She needed to be, so glucose disposal, which is walking, but not just walking. We have such low standards for how much walking. We need to be walking actually all throughout the day. Yes. We have…
I think a big problem in our society and actually that actually hurts a lot of patients is we’re obsessed with exercise and we’re not obsessed with movement. We need to actually shift that paradigm because a body in motion and cells in motion throughout the whole day is very different physiology and much healthier physiology than a person who kind of sits all day and then exercises for an hour. So that’s what my mom was doing. She felt great about the fact that she checked off the exercise box a few times a week.
Kimberly Snyder (30:12.334)
but she was not moving all throughout the day. So what I would have said to my mom is, hey, we need to figure out a way to restructure your daily life to be on your feet and outdoors more. I would have told her to get rid of, we should have gotten rid of the artificial light at night. We of course, we didn’t know. So we had the lights on until midnight. We had the computers and the screens, but I would have said, you need to be outdoors with sunlight most of the day. And we need to turn.
turn the lights down in the house at night. I would have talked to her about environmental toxins, you know. Cleaning products, everything. We didn’t know. It was again, it was the 2000s. It was like, we need to get rid of the bleach. We need to get rid of the artificially scented things. The Febreze. The Febreze. The spraying in the air, my gosh. The perfumes, the cosmetics, the scented deodorant, the scented body lotion, because now we know, we didn’t know that. The crappy dish soap. The dish soap, the Dawn. Because a lot of these things are actually metabolic.
And they bioaccumulate. They bioaccumulate. So on each of those pillars that I mentioned, I would have actually talked through many years. And I think that would have protected herself a lot better. But because of our culture where we’re about calories in calories out and we’re obsessed with exercise. I went to the gym for an hour. The rest of the day I’m sitting in front on the couch or in my car. Exactly. And being actually deathly afraid of something.
in our culture versus realizing that sunlight is actually so very important for our circadian rhythm. So it would have been showing her what matters and then building her life in a way that actually focuses on what the science is telling us, which is so much more nuanced, but actually much in many ways more natural than these approaches that we have today of just eat lower calories and exercise a few times a week and
you know, and so that’s how I would have approached it with her. Yeah. Beautiful, Casey. And then I can’t help but think about my friend, Dan Buettner, who’s been on here several times for the Blue Zone. So the science shows this, but also what Dan was finding in these Blue Zones cultures is that this was a natural way of life, being active, walking up the hills in Greece, like chopping the wood. And so there’s sort of this, there’s two sides of it. Like for me and someone that has healed from
Kimberly Snyder (32:38.222)
eating disorders and perfectionism. I was obsessed with grades and numbers and how much I weighed. So for me, I feel healthier when I’m not always looking at numbers. So trackers don’t work really well for me, right? I’m just sort of built into my life, but I know they can be really helpful as you talk about in the book, if someone’s tracking their steps, they can actually see how much there is, right? So there’s sort of like, okay, ideally we would live these natural lives where we’re outside. Like I play with my kids a lot and I’m doing these things.
So can you talk a little about your perspective? There’s this ideal, but then there is trackers that can help people stay on track. No pun intended, right? So sometimes we need help getting back to that more natural way of living, especially when it comes to movement. Yes. You bring up such a great point because fundamentally it’s actually about going back to more natural living. And some of these trackers feel a little bit unnatural. And the way I look at it is that…
The cards are so stacked against us culturally right now. Like we are in the past hundred years, things are just not what they once were. Like what Dan Buettner talks about in Blue Zones, like that’s not the world we’re living in. And so, and we’ve all, I think we’ve really bought into this like belief that what’s normal right now is normal. It’s not normal at all. Nothing about what we’re doing, like having lights on when we’re sleeping and the TV blasting, the synthetic toxins, the sitting.
over 80 % of the time. The average American is sitting 80 % of the time. Screens social media all day. All the time, multiple hours on our phone per day. And the most astonishing statistic that I think I researched for my entire book is that we are spending 93 .7 % of our time indoors, just totally separate from our lives. 93 .7 % of our time in a car or in a building. So with all of that, I think trackers can be helpful by essentially showing people.
how far off we are from what we need. So an example is this. There are active Americans who think that they’re getting enough exercise or movement, and they’re actually on a tracker walking 3 ,500 steps a day and maybe getting 26 minutes per week of moderate physical activity. Those people think, they’ve been studies that have showed this, they think they’re getting 120 minutes of moderate.
Kimberly Snyder (34:59.054)
physical activity per week, but it’s actually 26 minutes. Similar things happen with sleep. You take people who sleep five hours per night. They say they think they’re sleeping the right amount, seven hours. You look at their wearable trackers, they’re sleeping closer to about five hours per night, because they’re not taking into account that it takes time to fall asleep. And they’re just kind of fudging the sort of, there’s this ideal of what they think they’re doing. So to help show people, we are actually
very far off from what we need. I love with the trackers, they’ll have these little alerts saying, you need to get up and move around. You’ve been sitting for a long time. I think people don’t realize that sometimes two or three hours can go by where we never stand up. We need to be standing up and moving every 30 minutes. So to sort of give us this awareness of essentially how far off our normal life is from what the cells actually need. Now,
I don’t wear trackers all the time, even though that’s a huge part of the world that I’m in with levels and whatnot. I’m not wearing a CGM right now. I do have an aura ring on, but it’s essentially about keeping me honest and then showing me, I think something that can be confusing in our world right now with the diet wars and the fitness wars and so many marketing voices is that a lot of us are spinning because we don’t know actually what the right strategy is for our own body.
And so for a continuous glucose monitor, I think something that can actually relieve some of the cognitive overload of the world we’re living in with all these voices is to say, OK, I’m going to try a few simple strategies to stabilize my blood sugar and see what works for my body. So for me, I know that if I can get over 7 and 1 half hours of sleep at night, my glucose is way more stable the next day. If I can walk for 10 minutes after a meal, my glucose is more stable. So as opposed to me thinking, OK, there’s
30 strategies to stabilize my glucose, what should I do? And then I’m paralyzed. And fear. I know what works. So I don’t need to wear a CGM all the time. But it helped me feel confident in the midst of all the noise, what is actually serving my goal, which is to keep my blood sugar a little bit more stable. Yes, I see that. So cutting through some of that noise and keeping us honest, I would say. It’s a tool. And I have to say, Casey, I wore a…
Kimberly Snyder (37:21.774)
I wore a tracker for a little bit that was measuring the HRV and sleep. And there was some good information. Sometimes it stressed me out because I’m like, I feel pretty good. And this is saying my recovery is only like 40%. But I did. And to this day, I go to bed much earlier. Because one thing I saw was like, hey, if I go to bed earlier, overall, I’m sleeping more. I’m getting into that deeper sleep more. So whilst I don’t wear the tracker now,
there was some benefit, I would say. So you can wear it and get information. Sometimes, my husband is really big into trackers and he wears multiple ones every day, like forever. So I think it’s not one size fits all. Definitely not. We can get the information. We may come back to it. You could wear a CGM monitor. Once a year. Yeah. Or sometimes people want to keep them on all the time. Totally. I think that’s exactly it. And I think also the beauty of where we’re at in time right now,
is that we have so much science, a lot of which is just showing us kind of what we already know, you know, about – With the ancients and these cultures. Yeah, with the ancients, exactly. Yes, and the Vedas. Some people need to hear the science, and so that’s valuable. Yes. But like, for instance, something I learned going down all of this metabolic health road is that for sleep, it’s not just quantity of sleep that matters. It’s actually, for metabolic health and for mitochondrial health, it’s sleep quantity. Yes. Sleep quality.
and sleep consistency, which means basically bedtimes and wake times being somewhat consistent. And so we know from the science that all three of those things about sleep independently improve our mitochondrial health. Again, something my mom just didn’t know. I bet she never knew that going to bed at 10 one night and midnight another night was actually increasing her risk of cancer. So she didn’t know. My gosh. So.
With a wearable, I think what can be helpful for me personally is I might say, I think my sleep is good because I sleep about seven and a half, eight hours a night. But what if the quality is not good? What if the consistency is not good? I just don’t know. And so even if I wear it for just a few months to kind of get a baseline, it can pull out different threads that I might not be aware of that I can zero in on with or without the tracker to know that I’m kind of giving my body.
Kimberly Snyder (39:43.598)
what it needs. So making our efforts more focused on what matters, but not becoming obsessed with it. Really, like you said, using it like a tool and not like a religion. Do you notice, Casey, in your sleep data, if I’m religious about wearing blue light blocking glasses, since I’ve read that research, that’s one thing I do every night. And I’m not on screens a lot, but even just walking around my house, if I’m
doing a little bit on my phone or something. Did you notice in your data if you are staying off blue lights or if you were wearing the blue light blocking glasses, your sleep quality improved? It does for me. And the data supports that even like low light at night has a significant impact on our sleep quality and our deep sleep. And so it also, when we were exposed to light after the sun goes down, artificial light, it pushes back.
when our peak of melatonin is. And so it changes our hormones. There’s actually, they’re now calling blue light at night, a environmental endocrine disruptor, a literal hormone disruptor. And so I think that’s a great strategy to use the blue light blocking glasses. We actually turn all the lights down in the house at night and then have red lights that we can actually control with iPhone that all turn on around the house. They’re just from Amazon, very inexpensive. That’s really helped my sleep.
And actually similarly looking at sleep quality in HRV, some things that I didn’t expect have really helped. So like, I stopped drinking alcohol because the wearable showed me that it was absolutely tanking my sleep. So that was a useful, I cannot have any alcohol. We don’t drink at all anymore. And that actually, you can read the data and you can see your data and it’s, it’s night and day. And I’m like, wow, I’m investing eight hours in sleep.
And just because of one drink, I’m basically ruining the efficacy of that investment. So there’s that, but also, you know, one thing I noticed was that when my boyfriend and I will give each other just like, we have the lights down and if I give him like a five minute little like neck massage and head massage and he gives me one, my HRV over my sleep is so much higher. But that’s not in the data, but I…
Kimberly Snyder (42:03.246)
No, but it makes sense, right? It’s touch, it’s oxytocin, it’s reducing cortisol. So figuring out those things and then proving to yourself that we know inside it’s a good thing. But I think also having the data helps support the confidence in making time for these things. Well, you know, Hedy, it’s so funny because our UVeta says that the most rejuvenated practice is massage.
Right? And self massage or warm Abhiyanga oil massage because it does something to your nervous system. It brings you to the here and now it soothes you, it calms you. So that’s amazing that actually showed up just a simple touch because there’s so, you know, the skin so vasculated, there’s so much to just touch. And if you don’t live with a partner or a pet, you could touch yourself. Like I give myself foot massage almost every night. I try to take a little hubby.
Give me a massage. Sometimes he will a little bit. Sometimes he gets a little tired. I don’t want to do it. I just want to relax. But it’s so nice to know that these things, which are intuitive, also have the data. Like you said, it just said, this works. Sometimes the discerning mind likes to see those numbers. And it also helps me, I think, have more compassion for myself because if I’m having a day where I feel emotional or I feel tired or I feel like I just need to stare at the wall or…
maybe I’m feeling snappy or some of those things. I can look to my data and say, well, I’m in the late part of my luteal phase, which my, you know, and I got six and a half hours of sleep last night because I was traveling cross country and my HRV is low because, you know, maybe I was traveling and I only got 7 ,000 steps yesterday. And so my body, so then I look at that and I’m like, I’m okay. I’m, I am not the
I am not a bad person. I am not mean. I know exactly what I need. I need a good night’s sleep. I need water. I need touch. This is the tools that are going to bring it back. In a way, it separates me actually from the identity -based conversation. I know that’s… I mean, but I… It’s a very healthy… To use them in a way that’s actually tons of self -compassion. I am not wrong.
Kimberly Snyder (44:20.366)
there are conditions that happened that I can control that. And so, and I go as far to like, I’m not gonna have this conversation today with this colleague because I’m not resourced. And I need a good night’s sleep and some water and maybe a little massage and I will do this tomorrow when I have more capacity. So that’s how I approach it. What an amazing, amazing form of self -care versus push, push, push. Let me…
you know, suck out every little drop of production and fit as much as I can in versus this much more nonlinear, more divine, feminine, moving with the flow. Not just push, push, but let me be in touch and in tune with this energy and work with the energy that’s there. Yeah. And I need to receive today because I’m depleted. I love it. I don’t need to push harder because everything’s going to get worse on that monitor if I push harder.
The only way it’s going to come back to the right numbers is actually if I receive sleep, receive nourishment, receive love. And so in a way, I think that’s a way that wearables do help me feel confident asking for what I need. Because it’s like, you cannot fake HRV, right? Like me working harder and caffeinating more is going to make it worse. So yeah, so that’s just one approach that people can use for that.
But what I love in the book, though, whether you want to wear a wearable or not, your tools are accessible. We can work with light. We can work with our sleep patterns. We can work with food. You know, it’s just these are these are tools that everyone can use. Again, I just want to make that clear. Whether you’re whether you’re drawn to, you know, and you talk about sometimes you can get a lot of information from blood work. Yeah. My husband is someone who gets blood work very regularly. Me, not as regularly. I’m very
I would say more intuitive and touch. And that doesn’t, you know, not, I’m not saying that means no numbers because I do think there is value to getting blood work, but no matter what, which, you know, the whole full spectrum, these are tools that we can all utilize. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I say something very specifically in the book, which is that all the
Kimberly Snyder (46:34.67)
Like why it’s such an exciting time in human history is because there’s a confluence of factors that allow us, I think, to live the healthiest lives in human history. Unfortunately, our health is getting worse each year. But the reality is that if we use the tools properly, then we actually can do very, very, like have these long, beautiful lives and feel really good. But the tools are not just the technology. Like, sure, there’s the direct consumer lab testing and there’s the wearables and there’s the bio wearables. And that’s all wonderful.
But I make it very clear, like the number one tool that we have to understand our health is our body awareness. That is the number, and we have forgotten that. Connecting to the self. Connecting to the self. And I think I never learned this in medical school. I mean, Stanford Medical School, I never learned this idea that symptoms are a gift and our symptoms are the language.
that our body is speaking to us about its needs not getting met. But you think about our culture. We are petrified of symptoms. You look at what’s happening in a CVS or a Walgreens or one of these big box pharmacies. You walk down the aisles and they literally, the aisles are organized by the symptom, headache, joint pain, acid reflux. And then it’s hundreds of bottles.
to squash that symptom because we think that symptoms are intolerable. And I think a real reframe, yeah, the wearable can tell you about what’s going on inside your body. But you know what else can tell you about what’s going on inside your body? How you feel. And we have become so disembodied because we’re moving all the time. We’re eating while we’re driving. We are constantly on our devices. And we have a culture of actually.
positioning symptoms as a thing to kill, a thing to end. And in doing so, we cut off the conversation with our bodies and we become antagonistic with our bodies as opposed to receptive and listening. So sure, all the wearables are great, but the biggest wearable we have, right? The biggest biofeedback we have is setting the boundaries in this Western world to all the noise.
Kimberly Snyder (48:52.046)
to sit with ourselves quietly and take the time to do the most efficient thing we could possibly do if efficiency is our goal, is to actually hear what the body is saying. When my neck starts hurting or when my skin gets red, I never learned this in medical school, but now this is how I approach it. I’m like, well, why? Why am I getting inflamed on my face? And why is my neck hurting? And I can always trace it back to something that’s going on emotionally.
behave the past few days, how I’ve eaten. And so that’s our greatest tool. So it’s like, it’s no wearables necessary on this journey. It’s more the step one is unavoidable is to get back in touch. And this gets back to the spiritual side again of like the miraculousness of our life in that awe for our light and our miraculousness set boundaries with the.
what the world expects of us to say, no, I’m going to take time to actually be with this miracle of my body. And enjoy my life. Enjoy your body, enjoy your life. In doing that, be in touch with what’s happening inside your body and see it as a language and a conversation. And then respond to that conversation by treating your body with more love and care in the ways you interact with the different pillars of health across food, sleep, movement, emotional health.
light, et cetera. And so that’s the foundation of the health journey, far more important than any wearable. A wearable could never compensate, I think, for that type of deep being in touch with your body, which means slowing down so you can actually hear it. Yes. Yes. And again, what I love about your good energy book so much as well is that so much of the science, again, we’ll say this reinforces these natural ways of life. When we had
We didn’t have artificial lights and getting back on track and because of, you know, just the lifestyle and back when it was more agricultural, we get up early. We kind of are in tune with the ways in which the light is available. We’re not staying up super late and we’re not on all these devices. And, you know, there isn’t supermarkets with hundreds of processed products. So we’re eating natural.
Kimberly Snyder (51:05.422)
We’re living this more natural life. Now, one thing I love, you know, I’d love to hear your opinion about this, Casey, because you talk about this a little bit. There’s so many wonderful foods in here. And I also want to point out that Casey has wonderful recipes in the back. I would like to see another book with colored recipes from you. I think that’d be amazing. Yeah, like a cookbook. But one thing going back to Dan Budner for a second, we live in a culture that’s also sugar phobic. It’s also carb phobic, right?
A lot of people are scared of carbohydrates. And then there’s in between where people will eat sweet potatoes, but they won’t eat grains. Now certain cultures, I’m me being Asian, I always grew up with a rice pot. I still eat to this day a lot of soups and stews with brown rice, right? Or with the quinoa. Some cultures like in Okinawa, they eat all the purple sweet potatoes. They don’t eat as many grains. But some people eat sourdough bread.
I find it would be hard for my family to not eat any grains. My kids go to school, we’ll have sourdough bread or we’ll eat quinoa. And I am a big rice eater. So we don’t eat a lot of processed grains, but we do like the gluten -free grains. So what do you think about that? Because I know you prefer not, you have more starch, you’ll eat sweet potatoes, but you’re more in your personal diet, less grains. Yeah.
I mean, I know not to get into specifics because there’s so many different biofactors and I believe in real whole foods grown in good soil for health. I think the body knows what to do with those things. I think when I think about the landscape of the United States right now and the health with 93 percent of Americans having a problem with glucose tolerance. I mean, that’s true. That’s the context with which I think.
we’re having trouble with grains. There’s a couple factors of grains that I think people just need to be aware of in their decision to eat grains. One is that in the setting of insulin resistance and glucose intolerance, they may find that they have a very big glucose excursion, like a glucose spike, if they eat grains. And there’s alternatives like cauliflower rice or konjac root pasta that actually keeps them feeling
Kimberly Snyder (53:24.846)
more steady, and that makes them feel better. And having a glucose spike now and then is not a problem. It’s when people are having them all the time that it actually does affect our day -to -day life. So you, because of your microbiome and your insulin sensitivity, might handle grains really, really well on a standpoint of your physiology. But 93 % of American adults now have metabolic dysfunction, and 50 % are pre -diabetic or have type 2 diabetes. So.
It’s just about, I think, awareness. And that’s where I think sometimes a glucose monitor can help people be like, when I eat sourdough bread from this really natural bakery that’s organic, I do fine. But if I’m eating rice two times a day or something, I’m actually really on this glycemic variability roller coaster. So that’s one thing. I think the second piece is that most of the grains we’re eating in the US are ultra -processed grains, obviously not in your family. But in, but.
It’s people need to really understand the difference between unprocessed grains and ultra processed grains and understand the difference between organic grains and non -organic grains. And like pesticide saturated. Pesticide covered wheat. So if people are feeling good after grains and not like they’re having that big roller coaster, whether they feel it or it’s on their continuous glucose monitor and it’s organic.
you know, hopefully sort of like heritage type, you know, really beautiful grains that are not covered in pesticides. And sprouted. And sprouted. Sure. I think there’s absolutely it’s a real whole food. But I think that’s just not the way the majority of Americans are eating grains. That’s true. Yeah. And also I think about me growing up Filipino or going to India, for instance, or the Philippines, where you see there’s some rice.
There’s a lot of the soup. There’s a lot of vegetables. Like your vegetable tally, right? If you go to India, there’s lentils, there’s like all the veggie dishes and there’s rice versus Americans are like saying, I’m having all the cereal. Yes, yes, yes. Bread, pasta, cookies, crackers. Right, right. Like here, I’m just eating this pile of pasta. That’s very different than how we’re consuming the great. Or the Blue Zones would consume them.
Kimberly Snyder (55:40.142)
Very veggie centric. As Dan would say, these are considered peasant foods. That’s what’s available. They’re not thinking to measure all the antioxidants, but it’s what they’re growing. It’s colorful and it’s accessible. The last piece I would just mention about it is that in the context of a totally clean, non -toxic whole food diet, our body, again, it’s going to self -regulate and our microbiome is going to know what to do with it. It’s when we mix
some ultra -processed food and tons of sugar that’s basically spiking our inflammatory markers and spiking our insulin, and then mix that with high carbohydrate foods, even if they’re whole foods, that I think we get a swirl of dysfunction. So it’s like context matters. So if someone’s eating a whole food clean diet and their body has the capacity for all of this coming in, that’s great. I think where people.
sometimes get confused as they’re like, well, I heard whole grains are great. So I’m going to eat a bunch of whole grains, but then they’re also eating Doritos and candy together. Those things are not good because you’re spiking your insulin and your inflammatory markers, that ultra processed food. Then you’re putting in a high starch load together. That’s a problem. So it’s like the whole synergy. It’s the synergy. So I think one of the best things, and we’ve kind of already said this, but like that people can do is really at least for a short period of time, commit.
to a 100 % whole food, organic diet for a few months because everything will change. Your gut lining will change. Your inflammatory milieu will change. Your capacity to process carbohydrates will change. And your microbiome will change such that you don’t even really want the processed food anymore. And then you have a whole system that can handle something like starchy grains, I think, and you’ll self -regulate. So it’s this.
mixing the standard American diet, which is just, you know, so inflammatory with some of these other things we hear about, like, you know, whole grains are healthy where I think we meet into trouble. Yeah. And also I love how you connect gut health with mitochondrial health, because a lot of people have dysbiosis in their gut and there’s so much going on in there. I used to be so bloated, Casey, and I used to have candida and just all kinds of issues. So as my gut healed, I was able to handle
Kimberly Snyder (58:05.998)
more of the carbs and the fruit and everything just became more imbalanced and harmonious. So I love how you talk about the short chain fatty acids in the gut that are created with a healthy microbiome and how that really helps mitochondrial health. We’re huge believers here. We talk a lot about probiotics and live SBO probiotics. When our ancestors used to eat that healthy soil and there was that real hearty mix of probiotics that could get through.
So I love how it all works together. Like you said, it’s not one size fits all. And also we’re talking about in the context of someone’s system, how their microbiome is that, you know, it changes everything. It does. It does. I mean, the microbiome is so magical and I like it in the book to sort of like this, you know, it’s not our soul, but it’s this sort of like a physical soul. I love your mantras. I love you. The fiber. I think it was fiber. Where is that? Like our foods that we eat are.
speaking to our body. Yes, they’re sending messages. Fiber is telling our microbiome, I love you. I care about you. And it’s like, I think about the microbiome as our soul in a sense, because it’s invisible, we can’t see it. And yet it’s controlling every thought we have. It’s controlling our cravings. It’s controlling who we’re attracted to. It’s controlling our energy levels. The microbiome, these hundred trillions of bacteria, they are this…
well -intentioned beast inside of us, this beautiful soul, that if they are happy, we will be happy. And so, so much of eating, the way I think about eating is actually eating to support and love the microbiome because then they will help support and love this body of human cells that they live inside of, which is quote unquote me.
And so the ways that we can love them is to give them, I mean, I think at least 50 grams of fiber per day, which is the food that they then eat to produce these like chemicals, the short chain fatty acids that you talked about, the thing are absorbed in our, in our body float around our, our, you know, system and tell our mitochondria basically to be metabolically functional. And it’s so low because our mitochondria is, you know, you, you know, like,
Kimberly Snyder (01:00:25.422)
are like remnant bacteria when we became, when we have human cells, eukaryotic cells have mitochondria in them, which we think was because in some historic time that these cells essentially engulfed other little cells, bacterial cells, and then that became what is now the mitochondria. So that’s so cool that the living bacteria in our gut.
are speaking to these sort of like remnant bacteria inside of ourselves in a conversation telling them how to be healthy. It’s beautiful. And the way that we make that all happen is essentially fiber from whole rich plant foods, beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, raspberries, avocados, just incredible fiber rich foods. So that’s just such a, and then when you look at the continuous glucose monitoring, it’s like,
fiber really balances our blood sugar. And so on many levels, it’s supporting our health. And it’s sort of, to me, it’s like as close as we can get to a magic bullet in health is more fiber to support our microbiome. And it’s so simple. It’s so simple. And it’s accessible, which I love about your message, Casey, so much, because you go into the science, you go into lots of important information that, again, the more we deepen our understanding, then the more we can…
care and like you said, just like the monitors, it gives us sort of barkers and say, this really is important. And then it reinforces what we know intuitively. And then we have access to it in the grocery store. I could speak to you forever, Casey. This is amazing, fascinating. I love your book, Good Energy, which is out this week. The surprising connection from today. yes. Madvitabels of Unlimited Health. By the time we listen to it, this book will be out and tell us more.
Casey, where we can find out more about you, where we can get the book, it’s probably wherever books are sold. What about your work? It is wherever books are sold. The best place to find me is CaseyMeans .com. Everything is linked from there. Perfect. And my newsletter you can sign up for on my website, and that’s where I just kind of am constantly working through my newest thoughts. So, highly encourage people to sign up for that. Beautiful. And we will link to Casey’s…
Kimberly Snyder (01:02:44.494)
site and her newsletter directly in our show notes over at mysaloon .com as well as direct links to Casey’s new book. I love you so much Casey. Thank you so much for coming and sharing some of your amazing wisdom and your beautiful heart with us today. Thank you Kimberly. We’ll be back here as always Thursday for our next Q &A show. Till then take great care and sending you so much love.
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