Understanding Toxic Productivity with Issra Nasir [Episode #963]

This Week’s Episode: 

In this conversation, Kimberly and Isra Nasir Author of Toxic Productivity delve into how societal pressures and personal experiences shape our understanding of productivity and self-worth. They discuss the impact of natural disasters on personal reflection, the balance between work and personal life, and the importance of recognizing and managing shame and scarcity mindsets. The conversation highlights the need for intentional choices in parenting, education, and personal growth, emphasizing the cultural shifts brought about by the internet and social media.

About Issra Nasir 

Courtney Carver is he is the author of Soulful Simplicity, Project 333, and her current book Gentle: Rest More, Stress Less, and Live the Life You Actually Want (Balance/ Hachette Livre; February 18th, 2025). She is also the creator of bemorewithless.com and The Simplicity Space, a membership program and community full of women who are reducing stress and simplifying life. She also co-hosts The Soul & Wit Podcast with her daughter, Bailey. She has been featured in countless articles, podcasts, interviews, including O, The Oprah Magazine, Real Simple, Vogue, Success, BBC, The Guardian, today.com, Good Morning America, CNN, USA Today, Forbes, PBS, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. 

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Guest Resources

Book: Toxic Productivity: Reclaim Your Time and Emotional Energy in a World That Always Demands More

 

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Productivity
02:47 The Impact of Natural Disasters on Perspective
05:58 Understanding Toxic Productivity
08:47 The Role of Parenting and Education
12:10 Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset
15:05 Managing Shame and Over-Functioning
17:57 Cultural Shifts and the Internet’s Influence
25:01 Navigating Modern Communication Overload
25:58 The Myth of Meritocracy and Generational Challenges
27:49 Cultural Shifts and Redefining Success
28:49 Creating Healthier Work Environments
30:16 The Importance of Self-Boundaries
32:15 Mindful Living in a Fast-Paced World
33:30 Undercommitting for Better Balance
35:28 Transformative Power of Writing
38:35 Reconnecting with Creativity and Play
43:48 The Invitation to Self-Awareness and Action

 

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KIMBERLY’S BOOKS

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OTHER PODCASTS YOU MAY ENJOY!

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• How the Power Foods Diet helps with Weight Loss with Dr. Neal Barnard EP. 877
• How Not to Age with New York Times best-selling author Dr. Michael Greger [Episode #873]
• How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo [Episode #867]

 

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.373)
Hi loves and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so grateful to be back with you all here in the home studio. I’m just coming back from evacuation and the fires and we have a very pertinent topic and guest for you today. Isra Nasir, who is joining us from New York City. She is a New York City based psychotherapist, writer and the founder of Well Guide, a digital community for mental health awareness And she has a new book, which I’m holding here in my hands right now, Toxic Productivity. Reclaim your time and emotional energy in a world that always demands more. So thank you so much, Isra, for being here with us today. It feels like the right time to talk about this.

Israa (00:49.718)
Yeah, well, thank you for having me and I’m glad to hear that you’re okay and things feel a little bit more normal, probably being in your own home, but it’s, I’m happy to hear that you’re doing okay in the chaos that’s happening.

Kimberly Snyder (01:04.277)
Thank you. And you know, it’s funny because there is, as I look out my window, you can see the burn scar of the fire all around. And when you go through something like this, there’s all these natural disasters that happen. What I really feel right now in the land and in the area is a very deep stillness, stillness that comes. And it’s a really powerful time, I think, to transform and to rethink our lives and what’s really important. I know so…

Israa (01:23.054)
you

Kimberly Snyder (01:33.653)
So many of us, was, you know, pack one bag and run. And it was pictures of my parents and things from my kids. And in daily life, the subject of your book is sometimes we get caught up in thinking things are important and we’re on this hamster wheel all the time. So sometimes it just sort of gets, you know, these, are opportunities. I’m living in it right now, right? This opportunity to transform and rebirth. Because fires are death and rebirth.

Israa (01:58.806)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (02:02.805)
And so now in this aftermath, sort of rethinking, reframing what is it that really matters and where do we get our self-worth and what is really valuable in life? Big questions.

Israa (02:17.814)
Yeah, yeah. You know, when these kind of like calamities happen, whether they’re natural disasters or personal life events, I think most of the time, the last thing we’re thinking about in these type of moments is work, right? And productivity and achievement and stuff like that. Yet when things are like status quo, that’s the thing we think about the most. You know, and so I think

Kimberly Snyder (02:35.176)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (02:44.585)
Yeah.

Israa (02:47.232)
It’s just like an interesting thing that I noticed even about myself, right? When the United CEO was shot here in New York City a couple of months ago, it did start this discourse around how quickly, like within a month they had found someone to replace him, like work goes on. And I think it’s so important to take stock of like,

where you are putting your time. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t work like I work, work is important. It’s just really about balance.

Kimberly Snyder (03:25.211)
Yeah. And I would also say, as I went through your book and the topics, it even can expand beyond traditional work. think to, as a working mom, I’m in the work world. I’m also in the mom community. And I can also see shades of this with stay at home moms who can feel more productive doing more things at home or at school or having more kids to show that they’re doing more. Right. So you can actually fit into different

spheres because underneath it is that tendency, you know, whether we’re formally working or not.

Israa (04:01.71)
Yeah, I mean, I like to think of it as like paid and unpaid work. know, moms are doing more than full time roles of unpaid work. So, you know, and, and I think that I was very intentional in the book because like, when you think of the word productivity, you definitely think of work, but that’s the first thing that comes up. And I think up until like, probably like till, so in 2019, the WHO,

Kimberly Snyder (04:10.514)
you

Kimberly Snyder (04:23.412)
Yeah.

Israa (04:31.517)
declared burnout as an official syndrome. So not a clinical diagnosis, but an official syndrome that is a cluster of symptoms that lead to a certain behavior that is harmful. That’s the definition, right? But probably around 2020, 2021, new research started coming up. People became more interested in how we can actually be burnt out in other areas of our life, including being caregivers to either to elder dependence or younger dependence being partners, you can have romantic relationship burnout. You can feel burnt out in your personal health and personal growth arena. So that’s like more newer research that’s expanding the definitions of how far we take this toxic productivity mindset. And that’s why I was very interested in this because I was feeling it in different areas of my life. And I was very intentional.

Kimberly Snyder (04:57.557)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (05:18.997)
Yeah.

Israa (05:26.87)
in the book to use vignettes that showed how we can bring this mindset into our romantic relationships, how we bring it into parenting. There’s a case of any throughout the book. There’s a character we follow who is a mom and a lawyer. And like, she’s trying to battle these two roles. And then also in our, you know, personal health, self-care and friendships, it’s really like a mindset that is very much valorized.

Kimberly Snyder (05:36.275)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (05:54.463)
Right.

Israa (05:56.423)
in our culture.

Kimberly Snyder (05:58.399)
I would even say I was kind of chuckling a little bit when you talked about partnership, because I also have friends that are wanting partnership and there’s this burnout of being productive, being on every dating app, going on a million dates, just trying so hard, right? So it’s applying that sort of driven never enough energy to sort of always being in that search mode that we describe instead of actually just being and enjoying life.

Israa (06:23.16)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (06:27.157)
Right? The balance of, sure, I want to put myself out there if I’m single and this is what I want versus if I am not trying, I’m wasting my time or I’m not doing enough. So it really does fit into any particular area.

Israa (06:40.63)
Exactly, and in any arena it’s in, what it does is it tells you that the thing in front of you is not good enough. And so it keeps you on the cycle, right? So like if, as a person who’s dating, you’re constantly in this mindset of, wait, wait, this is not good enough. I either have to do more, I have to meet more, or there’s somebody better. This like illusion of optionality in today’s world kind of like crashes into the productivity mindset.

Kimberly Snyder (07:01.621)
Mmm.

Israa (07:06.766)
And it creates this idea that I have to go out more, I have to meet more people, and the person I’m meeting, there’s somebody better. So I have to optimize, I have to optimize. And you see this in parents. It’s not enough that my kid is doing four things. They need to do one more thing. Otherwise, they’re not optimizing their time. There was a great Atlantic article written about how it was like the, I’m forgetting the headline.

Kimberly Snyder (07:13.29)
Right.

Israa (07:34.914)
But the article is about how there is no more unstructured play for younger children now in the way America is set up. Because there’s something that needs to happen for these children. And even play is structured. You have structured play dates versus the unstructured play that many millennials grew up in, millennials and older. And so we’ve bought this optimization everywhere.

Kimberly Snyder (07:44.76)
yeah.

Israa (08:04.536)
frankly, not to sound like, you know, what’s the word? Like, I don’t want to be intentionally salacious, but I think that being too optimized and too structured leads to a very boring life. There is like no spontaneity. There’s no adventure. There’s no time to daydream and be like, you know, unreasonable in your imagination. Like everything is too centered on outcome.

Kimberly Snyder (08:32.82)
Yes.

Israa (08:34.54)
And so it becomes really like, we kind of pulverize all of our originality so that we all look the same. Our lives look the same. Our children are the same. Our partners are the same. Our holidays are the same, right? And so it just feels boring.

Kimberly Snyder (08:47.197)
Yeah, it’s true. Well, I think it’s, you know, it’s good to have these discussions because we really can make these intentional choices. I didn’t think about this as much until I became a mom. And I started looking at schools and started really seeing, wow, this doesn’t fit what I believe personally, and even how I grew up. So my kids go to Waldorf schools where it’s all about maintaining childhood and this unstructured, you know, the whole child.

And so I have created that for my children, it’s, it’s considered, you know, fringe in some ways. It’s very different than public school or a lot of other more traditional private schools. But I see my kids thriving. see incredible, the imagination games. My younger son wins all these chess tournaments, not because he’s sitting all day, but because he’s doing all these, you know, more real world math examples at Waldorf. So anyways, I just want to say this to moms and people everywhere. If this

resonates. really are different environments and groups and communities that you can seek out because more and more is highlighted around how this and you know there’s this Ted talk that was called you know something along the lines of why traditional school makes our kids dumb. Right so we see a lot of tech people especially sending their kids to Waldorf and schools like that. So anyways back to the book back to toxic productivity.

Israa (10:07.178)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (10:13.821)
What was interesting for me is that I also published a book a few months ago, Isra, and it was about the heart. And there’s these five heart stages, the dark heart, where you don’t have a lot of energy, there’s a lot of fear, and then the propelled heart, which really describes this toxic productivity where I was for much of my life, which is externally oriented. What do people think of me, judging self and others, comparing, always on the hamster wheel. And then you can start to steady yourself, steady heart, devoted heart, clear heart, where you come into that presence.

Israa (10:31.982)
Thank

Kimberly Snyder (10:42.633)
But so much, you know, when you read this and I get so many questions on all the podcasts I was going on, well, how do I actually quell the overthinking mind or this underlying feeling of really not doing enough? Because underneath that, you know, when we look deeper, it’s, don’t feel enough. So one of the chapters that I really resonated the most was called the audacity of abundance, right? Because if we get into the mind and we believe the ego, it never is enough.

Israa (11:07.159)
Hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (11:11.827)
Right? We look on social media, we should be more fit, we should have this. Like you said, we should be on this kind of vacation. We’re making this much money, like da-da-da-da-da. And so there’s this lack-based, or as you talk about in the book, the scarcity thinking. What have you seen in your clients, in your own experience, to really shift over and break these patterns, you know, which doesn’t happen overnight, away from scarcity, into really believing that we’re enough?

Israa (11:25.9)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Israa (11:41.302)
Yeah. So scarcity is obviously a mindset that we learn. Like everything that we think is stuff we have learned. So I think that’s the first thing I think programming, conditioning, like all the stuff. But I think the beauty in knowing that, like really knowing it, is also knowing that you can relearn things, right? So we don’t have to be like, what we’ve been taught is not our destiny. It’s just the context that we exist in.

Kimberly Snyder (11:49.013)
Programming.

Israa (12:10.744)
So we can change that context. So the first thing to kind of step out of scarcity is, well, I mean, once you’ve recognized it, right? So like, if you don’t really have a lot of awareness of how you’re operating, a lot of times scarcity seems like the more logical path, right? It feels like the more reasonable thing to do. And so like, for instance, like if you have like a job opportunity,

Kimberly Snyder (12:32.372)
Right.

Israa (12:40.34)
Scarcity, you will say to you, you don’t meet all of the requirements. So you don’t need to apply. Like, you’re probably not going to get it because you don’t meet all the requirements, right? The underlying fear in that is, you know what? Let’s protect you from rejection. There’s a scarcity there around how much you can handle. So I think in order to become aware of the mindset that you’re operating in, you have to become aware of the type of thoughts that you have.

Kimberly Snyder (12:56.735)
Amen.

Mmm.

Israa (13:10.094)
And that frankly is a little difficult to do alone if you’re not somebody who’s accustomed to a lot of self-reflection. In this way, like having like a very candid conversation with your partner, maybe even observing your patterns, are you somebody who says no to opportunities first? Are you somebody who sees obstacles before opportunities first? Let’s say someone offers you a job, let’s just say, right?

Instead of noticing the positives of this new role, I’ll manage a better team, I’ll have more money, like whatever, you jump to the obstacles. Like, I’ll have to meet new people. I’m so comfortable in my job already. Right? Like, where do you sit on this? I think those can be indicators of what type of mindset you have, scarcity or abundance. You can talk to a trusted friend. You can ask your partner, they see you every single day, siblings.

And then of course a therapist. If you do know that you operate from a scarcity mindset, like if you’re aware for whatever reason, I think emotional regulation is a really good way to get started on this journey of transforming scarcity into abundance. Because yeah, scarcity is based on fear. Fear activates the fear center of your brain, which activates fight or flight, right? So like what happens is your body takes over, your emotions are unresolved, they’re unregulated.

And so, or dysregulated. And so I think emotional regulation helps you bring it down, pause, so that you can choose abundance.

Kimberly Snyder (14:46.037)
Okay, okay. So that’s, it’s almost like a self-sabotage as you’re describing it. And then there’s this other, you know, what I call lack, which maybe is a little bit, you talk about shame and other aspects here, where it’s that doing a lot to sort of make up for this insecurity or the worth, right? Or the lack of self-worth just in being this. And I can think of a mom in one of my mom groups who, you know, had a fourth child.

Israa (15:05.944)
then.

Kimberly Snyder (15:15.989)
And it came into every sentence, you know, I have four kids. And it like gave her like a sense of like, I’m doing more than everyone else, because everyone else in the mom’s group had one to three kids, right? Or this sense of like, you know, she’s probably gonna try to have a fifth or a sixth or you know, whatever it is that she has ascribed to this sense of I have to keep going to feel like I’ve done enough. And I could say for myself personally, you know, it was like perfect grades.

Israa (15:23.182)
and

Kimberly Snyder (15:42.613)
president of the high school, president of National Honor Society, captain of the track team and became an author. Then it was like, you have to be a New York Times bestseller. And then the next one and the next one, right? It’s just like the hamster wheel, like the constantly, that drive, that burnout that, you know, for me, was like you said, recognizing it and then also really questioning what is it that makes me feel good? And it doesn’t come from my mind. It actually comes when I’m still and I’m in my…

heart and then you can start to see the contrast. And then it started for me to disable this myth of more doesn’t really make me happier.

Israa (16:21.152)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (16:22.547)
little by little, but it doesn’t break the patterns overnight, but at least you start to see it.

Israa (16:26.88)
Yeah, I think that you’re right. you know, a lot of us are over-functioning, constantly like feeling like we need to do more, not only for ourselves, but for others around us. Like, I think, you know, how can I solve the problem for my partner? How can I like preempt some other issue at work? How can I, you know, prevent my sister from dating like a horrible dude? Right? Like we’re constantly trying to solve other people’s problems.

Kimberly Snyder (16:40.381)
Yes.

Israa (16:55.502)
and over-functioning because it gives us a sense of purpose and need and validation, like from an external perspective. And I think that, you know, something that really transformed my relationship to this, because similar to you, you know, good grades, high functioning, like over-functioning, over-achieving, all that stuff, the good girl syndrome, as they call it, that’s how I grew up as well. And I think what shifted for me as I started thinking about this stuff is,

kind of defining a good enough point when I start something. So even with like writing the book, Like where was my good enough point where I felt like, okay, this chapter is good enough to be sent to the editor, you know, or I like write articles and sometimes I’ll just delay sending it to like pass the deadline sometimes because I’m like, where, like, cause I don’t have a good enough point. So I think it’s really important to be aware of our

Kimberly Snyder (17:38.463)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (17:51.573)
Mmm.

Israa (17:54.52)
good enough point for everything, whether it’s our personal health, whether it’s like a work related thing, whether it’s our families, because then you can rationalize your desire to over function. Like you can rationalize out of it. Cause you can say, wait, you know, I did meet the good enough point. Anything after this is extra. And I think it’s like a, it’s like a skill you have to build.

Kimberly Snyder (17:57.173)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (18:19.285)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s good to know that we, and it’s different for everybody, but it’s personal and it can be defined. And you can write it down. I’m a big journaler as well. And it does help me sort of reflect why I’m saying yes to this or why, you know, what’s really going on here. So another chapter which stood out to me was managing unresolved shame. So when we don’t feel good about ourselves,

We can sort of channel those feelings and that restlessness into the doing mode and sort of try to cover over really deep, painful, unprocessed emotions that we keep buying into. So can you talk a little bit about that relationship?

Israa (19:07.852)
Shame is a really powerful emotion. And it’s an emotion that is internally facing. So shame is constantly looking at you. And there’s an element of self-judgment. And of course, lot of shame is inherited. We inherited from our primary caretakers. We have some early life experiences that can really build this foundation of, I’m not good.

Kimberly Snyder (19:17.268)
Yeah.

Israa (19:36.632)
people don’t love me because I’m not good. Like that’s like the basic foundation that we can learn if we have like, let’s say emotionally distant parents or if you have emotionally neglectful parents or if we had like a lot of like emotional chaos in the home that can very quickly become this like foundational core belief that there’s something wrong with me.

Kimberly Snyder (19:46.42)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (19:55.285)
Mmm.

Israa (20:04.044)
And that’s why my parents don’t love me. That’s why it’s so chaotic, right? And then that carries into our school environments. And sometimes like events can happen at school that really, like if you’ve been bullied as a young person, like it can really develop a core belief that there’s something wrong with me. And so what happens is shame is so existential, like it’s an existential threat to ourself. So what happens is our mind just tries to wrap

Kimberly Snyder (20:04.159)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (20:23.829)
Mm.

Israa (20:32.534)
around it and cover it with behaviors. And so we end up doing a lot of things to undo this feeling of shame. And that’s why you see a lot of people who are bullied when they were young become bullies as adults. Like they become the workplace bully. They become bullies in their relationships because it’s a way to overpower that shame that they feel. Or even like.

Kimberly Snyder (20:49.695)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (20:56.873)
Right.

Israa (20:59.148)
children who are emotionally abused become emotionally abusive parents. And one would think that you’re like, but you know how it feels. Like, why would you do this to somebody else? But it’s because you’re to undo the shame. And shame can also take the shape of a lot of behaviors. That’s the ones that I talk about in the book of over-functioning. Like, if I do a lot of things, then I will be worthy. People will love me.

Kimberly Snyder (21:09.589)
Yeah.

Israa (21:25.452)
And if I’m perfect, perfectionism often has roots in shame, right? And I talk about perfectionism in the book as well as like, if I’m perfect, if I make no mistakes, then people will love me. I will never be rejected. My value becomes higher in somebody else’s eyes. And so it’s a very difficult emotion to uncover because it’s so deeply like folded into the narrative of our belief system about ourselves.

And I offer some reflection points in the book around shame that are, they’re like gateways to reflection. I think, if you’re somebody who’s really trying to work on shame, I will say that it’s really hard to do on your own. And it’s probably a better idea to have a behavioral health coach or a therapist to kind of help you through it, because it is a very challenging emotion.

Kimberly Snyder (21:53.268)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (22:00.575)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (22:19.689)
Yeah, it’s, you know, finding almost an anchor because when you start to open that door, it can feel at times quite overwhelming. It can feel very dark and it’s something that does need to be digested. And in my experience, it can be, you know, process to get through it. But I’m glad you wrote that chapter because otherwise if we don’t even consider that that’s a possibility or look to the past, we’re still on the hamster wheel. We’re still…

running around and it doesn’t solve anything even when we get that perfect so-called partner or we get that job promotion or whatever it is. It feels like right now there’s a lot of toxic productivity going on in general. And I’m not sure why culturally we may, you know, if there’s any research about, you know, with social media or the internet, like things are so much faster.

Or was there something that happened culturally in young adults or adults’ childhood as a culture a decade, a generation ago? What do you think is going on? Or has it always been there, but we just haven’t talked about it as much?

Israa (23:32.974)
Yeah, I think there’s a couple of really important shifts that have happened in the last 25 years. The biggest being the advent of internet. And obviously, like one of the most pivotal moments in human history was the advent of the internet because it changed everything about the way we function. And it impacted work in a very, very significant way in that prior to the internet, you could leave your work at home.

Kimberly Snyder (23:53.236)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (24:02.773)
Right.

Israa (24:02.826)
Most people who were like knowledge-based labor would leave their work, come home, and their bosses had no way to get in touch with them except call the landline. And if you were out that evening, your boss had to wait until you got back in the next morning. Like that was the norm and it was acceptable. So there was a lack of false sense of urgency. Now we operate under a false sense of urgency for everything. The notifications are red.

Kimberly Snyder (24:24.935)
Right.

Israa (24:32.034)
which alert our brains that there’s something wrong. Like red is a very high alert color for us. And so respond right away. Immediately you’re, you know, I’ve been worked at places where my boss is texting me at 10 PM, right? For something that could have waited, right? That could have waited till the next day. But it’s just the acceptable norm now. And so the false sense of urgency is one really big reason that people are feeling this so much.

Kimberly Snyder (24:38.783)
I have to respond right now.

Israa (25:01.164)
Because now not only is it just email, but it’s Slack, it’s Telegram, it’s Instagram DM, it’s Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, text message, right? And so people are so overwhelmed that they’re so overwhelmed with this like extra communication that we kind of ghost our friends. Like you get a text message from your friend and you just look at it instead of actually responding because we’re just so exhausted with this constant stream of communication. So that’s one thing.

Kimberly Snyder (25:08.137)
What’s up? Yeah.

Israa (25:29.73)
The second thing is millennials and Gen Z make up a pretty significant part of the workforce right now, right? And if you look at like the age pyramid, like we are in like young mid adulthood to middle age, right? We’re that bulk of the population. The millennial generation was raised on the myth of meritocracy. Like I’m a millennial, you know, and now I’m in like a management role. Most millennials are in this like middle management, middle age, right? And so,

we were raised in the myth of meritocracy. We were raised like that’s a defining, like function of our generation is if you work hard, you’re going to get the things and you know, more than previous generations. we are the generation that transitioned from analog to digital. And so those things coincided and we were like, okay, like I have to work hard to get the thing. And it didn’t really account for.

Kimberly Snyder (26:18.431)
Yeah.

Israa (26:27.086)
geopolitical issues, the financial crisis, changing families, inflation, like it doesn’t account for that. It doesn’t account for systemic barriers, racism. It doesn’t account for that. And so we saw the girl boss era and we were like, yeah, this is possible for everybody. Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook at 18. It’s possible for me. And so we are the generation who really the hustle and grind was like our like thing.

Kimberly Snyder (26:47.454)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (26:54.291)
Yeah, totally. Yes, I’m like, I lived this as well. And also, at some point, I read the statistic where there was more people in law school than actually lawyers, right? So people are this achieve, I’m gonna get a higher degree. And it doesn’t mean you could have the best education. It doesn’t mean there’s the same availability. We don’t control everything, right?

Israa (26:56.076)
I’m assuming you’re like a millennial as well.

Israa (27:17.336)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So that’s why I think we’re in an interesting time. And another thing, I’ll say this last thing, is we are in like a shift, like a transitional moment for culture right now. You know, a lot of things are shifting in our culture. like definitions of family, politics, like what is a marker of success has been shifting. It’s changing. And when things change, there’s chaos, right? People don’t really know what means what anymore.

Kimberly Snyder (27:34.279)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (27:40.712)
Exactly.

Israa (27:49.812)
Like, are you successful if you’re married or not? Have children or not? Buy a home or not? Like all of these like markers of success now are shifting in definitions. So we are at a point in history where our social landscape is shifting and these shifts have happened before, right, in time. But when chaos starts happening, we want to control. We as humans need stability. So what do we do?

We go inwards and we just try to control everything. If I do everything, I’ll be fine in this chaos. And that’s, I think also amplifying that’s my insight.

Kimberly Snyder (28:24.051)
Right. Well, I mean, so much to unpack there when you were talking about the texting all the time and the sense of urgency. I mean, I just think that we more and more have to self advocate for a healthier work environment. I’m an entrepreneur. So we have things that we’ve agreed on within the company that feel healthier from a mental health perspective and not creating that burnout.

And I know it’s not possible for everyone’s environment, but if it feels really unhealthy, shifting away or having that conversation with the management team, because in my experience, it doesn’t breed more actual productivity, it makes more fear and more mistakes. just, creativity can’t really thrive when you’re squeezed, I think. And so I know at Salonah, we really believe in times for rest and extended vacations and all these things, which ultimately can…

create thriving. I think this idea you talked about success is something I think we all need to ask ourselves because it’s been so externally oriented around, you for me, I grew up, well, if I go to the best college, I have the best GPA and then I have this and I have this. And now so much of it for me is around inner peace and feeling fulfilled and feeling present and not the things you can just measure in numbers, right? And there’s been some big wake up calls, this fire being one of them.

My mom passed away suddenly a few years ago. I reframed everything again. So I think it’s so important. And there’s a lot of pauses in your book and a lot of introspective questions and a lot of opportunities to journal because Paramahansa Yogananda, the great yoga guru says introspection is one of the greatest tools of progress. Otherwise we’re on that hamster wheel and we don’t really question. I used to live in New York City too, Isra.

Israa (30:14.574)
Thank

Kimberly Snyder (30:15.957)
So then when I go back, I’m like, wow, everybody’s running around. And so, especially in these environments, we live in the sticks, but I just remember you really have to carve it out because people will be like, well, why aren’t you meeting up? Like, let’s go to this and let’s go to this event. We’re going to go out. It’s so important to be intentional and to say, well, actually, I don’t really want to do that with my time and energy. I really want to rest or this is what feels nourishing to me.

which can feel really challenging when you’re in an environment that is so driven.

Israa (30:47.786)
Yes, absolutely. I think your environment has a huge impact on your habits and your mental health and well-being. And I think that’s why it’s so important to have self boundaries. You know, when we think about boundaries, we often just think about other people. But more than that is the boundaries we have with ourself and that we respect. And so if you are setting a boundary around time, you need to respect your own boundaries and say, no, I have to leave this party at 1030.

You know what? Yesterday I had a friend over. We were doing like a vision board, girls night, ordered food. was really great. One of her like intentions for this year is to have better sleep, right? She lives about 30 minutes away. 10 PM, she was like, you know, 9 56. She was like, you know what? In spirit of saying true to my intention, I’m going to leave in the next 10 minutes. You could have stayed. We were like, we were gabbing. We were having a yap sash, right? But that’s having a boundary with yourself.

Kimberly Snyder (31:22.832)
I love it.

Kimberly Snyder (31:40.17)
Love it.

Israa (31:47.478)
like respecting that. And within 15 minutes, she was gone. By 11, she was in bed. That was her goal. So I think that that’s the kind of thing we need to do irrespective of environment. And it’s extremely hard, extremely hard. That’s why it’s helpful to just pick one thing to really focus on when it comes to intention or grounding. It’s really hard to have like 17 boundaries that are so different from your environment, right?

Kimberly Snyder (32:05.845)
Mm.

Israa (32:15.17)
So one for me, like I live in New York and you’re running. Yeah, everyone is running constantly, right? You’re right. And so I really want to like be slow and New York is like the worst place to do that. So I’ll.

Kimberly Snyder (32:17.417)
Yeah, I’m not sure you’re with me right now, Isra.

Kimberly Snyder (32:30.645)
You’re like the tortoise and the hares running around you.

Israa (32:34.03)
Yeah, yeah. And so I noticed last year that I was eating really fast for no reason. And a part of like having a slow life is not just turning your own butter. It’s like actually doing things mindfully. And so my intention for this year is to eat slower, like actually spend 25 minutes eating lunch, because I don’t eat lunch at my desk, like I will step away. But even then I was like just finishing it in 10 minutes.

Kimberly Snyder (32:40.981)
Mmm.

Israa (33:03.692)
Like for what reason? Like I have a hand flower blocked, but I’m just so mindless, right? So that’s been one of my biggest boundaries is like trying to make sure that I eat slowly and protect that time throughout like in the afternoon so that I’m nourishing my body and mindful and present. I’m enjoying my food. So that’s been really an important one for me. And what else?

Kimberly Snyder (33:04.255)
trying to get back.

Kimberly Snyder (33:15.551)
Mmm.

Israa (33:30.552)
I have started doing something called under committing, which I talk about in the book. And it has been really, really amazing, which is saying yes to one less thing. So that requires you to have awareness of how many things you’re saying yes to. since August of last year, I have been really, really mindful about not overpacking my weekends. Because in a city like New York, there’s 100 things going on.

Kimberly Snyder (33:55.999)
Mmm.

Israa (34:00.374)
Like you could be out Friday night onwards till Sunday night. Like you could potentially do that, right? Only coming home to sleep. Show, movie, after hours. Like it’s just so much. And so I have tried to keep one block free on a weekend, whether it’s a full Saturday morning, afternoon, not doing anything or Sunday afternoon, evening onwards, not doing anything, just really being intentional about having a solid block of free time.

Kimberly Snyder (34:04.223)
Yeah. Lunch, meeting up, let’s go to this class together. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (34:28.329)
No.

Israa (34:30.926)
And this has been really great.

Kimberly Snyder (34:31.155)
I love that. and then actually putting it in the calendar because we can sometimes have this idea, but if we don’t actually act on it, it gets taken away. So I can say from one author to another, Isra, writing The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts changed me so much. It really brought me into my heart. So I’d love to hear from you being so immersed in this material. I’m really wanting people to know when they’re in toxic productivity and

I’m, know, the healer’s journey. I imagine you were in it for a while. How has written writing this book and birthing it into the world, like really holding it in you? How has it really changed you? Not maybe in, you know, there’s these specific things you’re working on, but your, framework, your whole way of looking at things, your purpose, your, you know, what lights you up now, how’s it changed you?

Israa (35:28.342)
Writing the book was like a very meta process for me because I struggled with toxic productivity myself, right? And I… Yeah. Exactly. You have to be productive to write a book. so I think that I discovered a lot of like things that I had just forgotten that I was carrying, you know, because I had to go through my journals from past to like gather material and share and stuff like that.

Kimberly Snyder (35:35.285)
Then you’re a book, which is yet to be productive to write the book.

Kimberly Snyder (35:52.052)
right?

Israa (35:57.59)
And so I definitely uncovered some stuff, especially around shame for myself, which I was like processing in my own therapy. So that was really transformative. And then I think, so I’ve always been a writer, but I would write like long form, like essay type articles and stuff like that, but I’d never written a book. And I think the writing process helped me realize how much I genuinely love it.

Kimberly Snyder (36:26.185)
Mmm.

Israa (36:27.24)
and how much I enjoyed the introspective stretches of time that came with writing and how it really helped me understand kind of like the direction I would like for my life to take. I’m still in this like exploration phase, but I think it like really kind of was a pivot point, like a plot point in my life. So I think that I learned a lot about myself in the process.

Kimberly Snyder (36:50.645)
Mmm.

Israa (36:56.322)
That was like very helpful for me.

Kimberly Snyder (36:59.069)
It’s so funny because as an author too, when I look at my books, I say, you know, it was me that I was writing for to a large extent, like through me, I learned, I healed so much in writing this and then, you know, offering it out, you hopefully it can be of help and service to everyone else, even though that really was the intention, it’s woven together, right? And so on the sort of the opposite end, this was my eighth book in 11 years, and it was sort of…

Israa (37:09.25)
Thank

Israa (37:21.698)
Mm-hmm.

Israa (37:26.242)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (37:28.383)
constant writing and writing. And now I actually feel like I’ve said so much now in the written word. And I’m sure at some point I’ll write another book, but I’m really excited to shift into other forms of sharing and teaching, including courses and programs and so on and so forth and put more focus there. But it takes that pause because there were years and times where I was on that writing hamster wheel, you know, just that wanting to…

Israa (37:52.163)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (37:56.021)
create. Now I think is women especially, you know, we have so much of this natural defined feminine creative energy, right? And it’s how we want to use it because sometimes in our culture, like we said, we’re defined so much our worth is defined by our work, what we have to show. But I found that you can transmute and use that energy into creating really nourishing meal for yourself or like setting up that really comfortable Saturday afternoon and getting your slippers or

going, doing your own nails or whatever is a million different ways, we can use creativity through our daily life and it doesn’t have to be so rigid and achievement based and structured.

Israa (38:35.764)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that one of the best things I did for myself last year to really Invite some balance into my life is to do things that were somewhat creative in nature without the outcome associated with it. Just doing something for the process of doing it with actually trying to become better at it or have some end product

Kimberly Snyder (38:53.97)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (38:59.305)
Beautiful.

Israa (39:04.93)
that, you know, so like pottery, like a clay pottery kit, I got an at home one, a needle point, improv, puzzles, like just doing all of these things. Like I did like a three month sprint just for hobbies for no reason. And it was so fun and so freeing. And I realized that most adults, including myself up until last year, we have become really unacquainted with the joys of unstructured time.

Kimberly Snyder (39:13.439)
No.

Kimberly Snyder (39:34.227)
Yeah.

Israa (39:34.316)
because the moment we leave middle school, our time becomes extremely structured. And so we have just forgotten it. We have just forgotten the joy of it. And so a small reminder will immediately tap into, because it’s a natural state, Unstructured play, creativity, free thinking is a natural state for humans. But we’ve forgotten it. And so everyone is born creative, right? You give a kid something, like they could be like,

Kimberly Snyder (39:50.015)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (39:55.943)
Yes.

Israa (40:02.744)
four years old and they will create something out of it. They will imagine it to become something else, right? It is natural for us. And so I think like reacquainting myself with the joys of unstructured time, know, freeform play that has no outcome. I was not posting about it. I was not showing it to anybody. I was not looking to become better at it. It really changed something. It really did transform me. And I know it sounds so like cliche, but it really did.

And I would really encourage people to do it. Even if you can’t, even if you believe that you don’t have a lot of time, because maybe you’re a really busy parent, maybe you have a really high stress job, these are all true realities. See if you can find something that is low lift. See if you can see it.

Kimberly Snyder (40:48.391)
I love how you said, and you said you didn’t post about it, right? Because sometimes I see people, you know, doing something and then they’re not fully there because they’re documenting this whole thing to show. And then they’re pulled out of the moment and then it’s doing it, but then also having something to show for it. it’s, you know, it’s sort of, you know, it’s, kind of takes it out of the pureness and it’s okay to document things. We all do.

Israa (40:52.172)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (41:17.493)
or most of a lot of us do, but I really relate to that idea of just being there and you don’t have to share everything. And so back to there’s boundaries with social media that we can have. You don’t have to be like documenting everything in your stories like that. Productivity.

Israa (41:32.878)
Absolutely. Yeah, because you know, the moment you document something and then you start performing for an invisible audience and then the metrics of success are attached to it. How many people saw my story? How many people commented? right? Like you might even be comparing it to like previous posts of your own, but I create digital content. So like, I know this mindset really well. That’s why I don’t do it for my personal life. Right.

Kimberly Snyder (42:00.883)
Yeah.

Israa (42:01.846)
I never post about my, and people can do it, but I never do it because I don’t want to bring that same mindset into my personal life. And I was very, very mindful about not sharing my year of hobbies until it was over. So that way I could just be present in the process. And if I sucked at it, I sucked at it. didn’t matter. And so it was very, it was very transformative.

Kimberly Snyder (42:08.563)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (42:15.295)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (42:27.029)
You know what was transformative for me? And I’m bringing you back a little bit because I have a team that’s like, we can do it sometimes, was I just turned off all the likes and all the numbers because I just wanted to feel pure and sharing what I wanted to instead of like, oh, like getting these numbers. And numbers in general have been tricky for me because I had eating disorders in high school. So I would always weigh myself. So then I just stopped.

Israa (42:50.691)
Good.

Kimberly Snyder (42:52.187)
Wayne stopped thinking about numbers so much and that really helps me focus on equality, being present, being really connected, know, producing or sharing something that is of value versus numbers. As someone who’s really obsessed with perfect grades can go down that rabbit hole. So, I mean, so much to unpack in your book.

Israa (43:11.117)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (43:15.407)
I’m just going to call out a couple other chapters that I think are really important. Reimagining productivity, again, this reframing using productivity as self-worth when everything must be perfect, which we talked a little bit today. Comparing yourself to others. There’s so many questions. There’s so much discussion in our community here around comparison and not feeling enough. So is there anything in your wonderful book, Isra, that we didn’t

talk about yet or anything you want to touch on and share with our audience.

Israa (43:48.366)
Yeah, I think the thing I would say is this book is an invitation to self-awareness. And self-awareness is the first step, but it’s not the only step. So I would really encourage people to translate their awareness into action, because that is what becomes healing. We can sit with awareness for years and years and years, and that information gives us a false sense of progress and growth.

Kimberly Snyder (44:16.178)
Right.

Israa (44:16.866)
but we really have to translate our awareness into action, which is why I, even in the beginning of the book, in the intro, I recommend to read this book, not cover to cover. You can, there is.

Kimberly Snyder (44:28.095)
Mm. That’s how I didn’t read. I read it. I went to the chapters I liked.

Israa (44:32.308)
Yeah, exactly. Go to the chapters that you’re resonating with or even if you start cover to cover, take time to actually do some exercises, implement it for 30 days, come back, continue reading, right? Like really make this an engaged interactive experience because there’s so much in there that you’re going to feel overwhelmed if you read it quickly in two weeks and then you’re like, damn, I got to change my whole life. You actually don’t have to change your whole life.

Pick one thing, just pick one thing and try to infuse it into your day as a change of habit and then move on to something else because the transit productivity mindset can really set into personal growth as well.

Kimberly Snyder (45:10.207)
Love.

Kimberly Snyder (45:15.157)
Well, I’d like to close with my favorite quote from the book, which I’m maybe I’m paraphrasing a little bit from doing it from memory, which is an optimized life is not the happiest life. In a world Israel where it’s like, especially in health and well, all fields, right? It’s like, am I taking enough supplements? Am I, do I have enough biohacking gear? Like it’s on, on, on. It’s not the key.

Israa (45:28.47)
Yes, that’s that’s direct quote. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (45:45.095)
and just having more stuff and being overly scheduled is not the key to being happy, peaceful, fulfilled, right? The things that ultimately really, you know, can make us feel our best, what matters in life. It feels really raw for me to even talk about this right now and, you know, the recent fires when so many people had everything taken away and then were kind of stripped down to, okay, but we still have the things that can’t be taken away. And so we want to carry that forward as we rebirth.

Israa (46:13.582)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (46:14.047)
culture, you’re in Los Angeles and for many of us. So thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom today, Isra. The book again, everyone is called Toxic Productivity. We claim your time and emotional energy in a world that always demands more. We will link to the book directly in the show notes at mysaloon.com. But Isra, can you tell us as well where we can get your book and also more about your work where we can find you?

Israa (46:37.131)
Yeah.

So the book is available everywhere. know, Barnes and Noble, indie book shops, Amazon and Target, et cetera. And you can connect with me on my website, astranasser.com. And there’s a lot of resources there that you can download, like worksheets, things like that. And then my Instagram, well.guide. Very active on Instagram, so you can always follow me there, because I share a lot of mental health content.

Kimberly Snyder (47:07.419)
Wonderful. Isra, thank you again so much. I’m so glad you wrote this book in this time and look forward to connecting with you more.

Israa (47:16.536)
Thank you so much. It was nice chatting with you too.

Kimberly Snyder (47:19.973)
And thank you loves all for tuning in again, the show notes and the information are at mysaloon.com. We’ll be back here Thursday for our next Q &A show as always. So then take great care and remember to submit questions for our show on there as well. And we’ll see you soon. Sending you all lots of love.

Yay!

Israa (47:40.278)
Okay.