Using Heart-Based Connection in Building Healthy Relationships with Dr. Thema Bryant

This Week’s Episode: 

In this enlightening conversation, Kimberly interviews Dr. Tamah Bryant, a renowned psychologist and author, about her new book ‘Matters of the Heart.’ They explore the significance of emotional connections, the journey of healing from trauma, and the importance of self-compassion. Dr. Tamah shares her personal experiences and insights on building healthy relationships, both romantic and platonic, and navigating workplace dynamics. They also speak about the significance of independence within relationships, the challenges of healing from infidelity, the depth of human connection, the power of vulnerability and the importance of being truthful with oneself and others.

About Dr. Thema Bryant 

Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis is an associate professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, as well as an ordained minister in the AME Church. She is the 2015 awardee for the California Psychological Association Distinguished Scientist Award. She is also a past president of the Society for the Psychology of Women and a former American Psychological Association representative to the United Nations. She received the Distinguished Contributions to Psychology in the Public Service early career award.

She is director of the Culture and Trauma Research Lab at Pepperdine University and a past associate editor of the esteemed scientific journal Psychological Trauma. She is published in numerous peer-reviewed journals, she is author of the book, Thriving in the wake of trauma: A multicultural guide and she is co-editor of the books, Surviving Sexual Violence: A handbook of recovery and empowerment and Foundations of Resilience: Religion and Spirituality in Diverse Women’s Lives.

Dr. Thema has served as a media mental health consultant for numerous news programs, talk shows, and docu-series on network and cable television stations, as well as for NPR and print media. ESSENCE magazine named her among women who are shaping the world. A licensed clinical psychologist in the Los Angeles area, Dr. Bryant-Davis earned her doctorate from Duke University and completed her post-doctoral training at Harvard Medical Center. Her research focus areas include trauma psychology, ethnic minority women, oppression, coping, and spirituality.

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Guest Resources

Book: Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love’

 

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Matters of the Heart
02:01 The Importance of Heartfelt Connections
05:08 Dr. Thema’s Journey to Healing and Trauma
10:01 Self-Compassion and Healing Self-Abandonment
14:59 Building Healthy Relationships
19:53 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
25:05 Embracing Change and Personal Growth
25:39 Navigating Relationships and Personal Growth
28:01 The Importance of Self-Reflection
31:35 Independence in Relationships
34:11 Healing from Infidelity
40:20 The Depth of Connection
42:58 Embracing Gentleness Over Harshness
45:40 Releasing Toxic Relationships

 

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KIMBERLY’S BOOKS

• Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart
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• Beauty Detox Power
• Radical Beauty
• Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life
• You Are More Than You Think You Are 

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• How to eat to reduce anxiety with Harvard nutritional psychiatrist Dr. Uma Naidoo [Episode #867]

 

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.925)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for my very special guest today. We have the honor of having Dr. Tamah Bryant, who is an associate professor of psychology and director of the Culture and Trauma Research Lab at Pepperdine University, making Dr. Tamah a neighbor of mine. And she is also a New York Times bestselling author. She has a new book out this week.

which is very close to my heart and it’s called Matters of the Heart, healing your relationship with yourself and those you love. Dr. Tama, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Dr. Thema (00:42.911)
Thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you do. It’s so beautiful the space that you hold and helping to share the knowledge. I love it.

Kimberly Snyder (00:52.161)
thank you, Dr. Tamah. When your book came across my desk and I saw the title, I mean, even I just said it, I started to get goosebumps. I said, here is another heart based sister who’s really coming and it’s such a beautiful cover. Those of you that are watching this on YouTube and of course we’ll link to it directly in the show notes at mysaloon.com where you can go and get Dr. Tamah’s book, is out now. It’s so exciting to be here with you. Launch week.

Dr. Thema (01:05.742)
Thank you.

Kimberly Snyder (01:19.053)
There’s so many things I want to ask you, but let’s go right to the title for a moment. Why matters of the heart? Sometimes it seems so obvious now for me, I love talking about the heart, but sometimes when we’re talking about relationships, it can be a little bit heady, it can be mental, can you start to get caught up in the thoughts and the drama. You bring it right back here.

Dr. Thema (01:28.034)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (01:35.31)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (01:38.733)
Hmm.

Dr. Thema (01:44.95)
Yes, absolutely. It’s so important because we can get caught up in our thoughts, the anxiety, the worry, the storytelling, the trying to predict what’s going to happen. And then we can disconnect from what our heart knows, what our heart feels.

and to honor our emotions. We’re in a season now where a lot of people can be very dismissive of feelings, but feelings are important points of information and it’s also part of our humanity. And so what are the things that move you? What are the things that awaken or liven you? And also what are the things that broke your heart? Like all of those pieces are central for our healing.

Kimberly Snyder (02:08.551)
voice.

Kimberly Snyder (02:28.049)
Dr. Tamah, I’m always interested in someone’s journey. What brought you to be a relationship expert and to talk about trauma? You know, was reading, I was thinking, well, it could go either way, right? It could be that she came from this, you know, idealistic childhood and she came from this really secure place and she wanted to share that. Or it could be similar to my path, which is the healer’s journey where there was a lot of struggle and there was a lot of growth. And through that struggle, you’re inspired to share.

Dr. Thema (02:47.502)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And for me, it’s a both and. So the book is dedicated to my mom and she transitioned last year as a result of breast cancer. But she loved deeply. Like she, you know, we, my brother and I would go out into the world. It’s a foundation. Like when you have that secure sense of like somebody in your life really loves you and accepts you. And it really touched me.

Kimberly Snyder (02:57.657)
Okay.

Dr. Thema (03:22.912)
One of my friends got to meet my mother and her response to just, my mother’s very affirming and all of that good stuff. And so my friend said, I wonder who I would be if I had your mother. And I was like.

Kimberly Snyder (03:34.845)
Oh, I was going say Dr. Tamie, you’re one of the lucky ones. My mother loved me so much. She’s also transitioned, but it was a different type of, you know, she was an immigrant from the Philippines. was trying to strive, always working and loved in her way. Sometimes, you know, as a child, you misinterpret it for neglect or not being seen.

Dr. Thema (03:38.593)
Right.

Dr. Thema (03:43.138)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Thema (03:55.764)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it is challenging. And then we also get to see their life’s journey. My mom grew up one of 10 in the projects of New York. Her…

My grandfather was a World War II veteran who came back with PTSD. you know, that trauma piece is there, intergenerational trauma. And then I focused on my first book, my first public book, Homecoming, on healing trauma because I am a trauma survivor. multiple, growing up initially in Baltimore, while it’s beautiful culturally and all those things, it also has high rates of community violence. And then my family, we’re African-American,

Kimberly Snyder (04:14.589)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (04:39.736)
American, but we moved to Liberia, West Africa, which was wonderful initially to see all of these people in positions of power that look like you. So it really built your confidence. And then unfortunately, our second year there, there was a civil war. So, you know, we had to be evacuated. I went to college at Duke University and then one summer when I went home to Baltimore, I was sexually assaulted. So

Kimberly Snyder (04:51.43)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (05:08.381)
Wow.

Dr. Thema (05:09.302)
When I do the trauma recovery work, you know, it’s not only what I have read in books, but to live it and to know that it’s possible to reclaim yourself and that we’re all deserving of that.

Kimberly Snyder (05:23.293)
the second you came on, you know, for me, it’s very much about energy. And there’s this lightness in you. And so one of the things that is really important to me when I’m having these conversations is someone’s embodying what they’re talking about. Cause there’s a real disconnect sometimes if someone’s teaching something, but they’re not actually in that energy or on the journey and being honest about it. Right. So I love.

Dr. Thema (05:28.386)
Yes.

Noooo

Dr. Thema (05:40.714)
Ugh, yes.

Dr. Thema (05:50.242)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (05:51.257)
Thank you for sharing that and also not just the words, actually showing that you really can get to a place of lightness no matter what we’ve been through because we all have different experiences. We don’t get to pick our childhood. We don’t get to pick, you know, these challenges that come to us.

Dr. Thema (05:59.52)
Yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. And thank you for that. I think it is so important for us to live it and embody it. had to have a confrontation with myself moment when I first started practicing as a psychologist is I noticed this pattern where I was always skipping lunch because I would like frame it to myself of like someone else’s healing or a sandwich.

Kimberly Snyder (06:27.645)
Dr. Thema (06:33.004)
Right now. And of course you’re going to be like, I don’t need to say, and so then one day I was in session with a client and I was talking to her so passionately about how she should take care of herself. And in the middle of this like heartfelt speech, my stomach starts growling and I’m like, my goodness. And so I had to like confront myself to say, do I just want to teach it or do I want to live it? Right. And so, yeah, I want to live it.

Kimberly Snyder (06:59.025)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (07:03.613)
How has it been for you or you get, it sounds like you really love working with clients. And then there’s this other passion writing books and then sharing with people that you don’t get to have that one-on-one relationship with.

Dr. Thema (07:16.022)
Yeah, I have so loved writing for the public. I had a number of books previously that were more textbooks for people who are training to become mental health professionals. And I teach at Pepperdine University. And those books are kind of like written in jargon. They’re very technical. They’re very expensive. And so I was excited to say, how can I bring information?

to people, like to remove those barriers and make it accessible and affordable. So it has been such a delight hearing from people, not only from all walks of life, but even other countries. My first book, Homecoming, was translated to Turkish and Portuguese. And I’m like, So it’s beautiful. I love sharing.

Kimberly Snyder (08:00.508)
Europe.

Kimberly Snyder (08:06.683)
That’s amazing. Well, and going back to the book for a moment here, what I loved about it, you know, in context with what we were talking about, we don’t always have so-called perfect, really. I mean, no one really has a perfect childhood in any way. And I’ve read a lot of relationship books come across my desk. And one of the things that seems, you know, obvious for many of us that have been on the journey, but not so obvious because it’s not in all the books, is to start with that relationship with yourself.

Dr. Thema (08:35.628)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (08:36.271)
and to really claim that when we start to see ourselves as whole, when we start to feel that deserving, only then do we start to have relationships. So your first section is your relationship with yourself, enhancing self-compassion is the first chapter. And then secondly, healing self-abandonment and self-neglect and people-pleasing, healing insecurity and unworthiness. So let’s start from the beginning. The very first section is about

Dr. Thema (09:02.402)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. That’s right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (09:05.533)
compassion and turning it inward. Because isn’t it so easy to care for loved ones and friends and to be really harsh with ourselves?

Dr. Thema (09:13.634)
That’s right. we can judge ourselves harshly because often we’re judging our past self based on what our present self knows. Right? It’s like, I should have known better. I should have done this or I should have done that. And so, you know, we do that not only for our younger adult selves, but even our childhood selves, we can say all the shoulds. And so giving ourselves grace, forgiving ourselves.

Kimberly Snyder (09:23.057)
Right.

Dr. Thema (09:40.186)
And I like to say if you go far back enough in your story, what you did made sense. Right? It did. It came from somewhere. so, yeah, that’s right. And it doesn’t mean that you’re stuck. I can make a new choice now, but I’m not going to keep punishing myself.

Kimberly Snyder (09:47.077)
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Do the best you could at that time.

Dr. Thema (10:01.344)
or settling because I feel my imperfections disqualify me from joy or from love or from success. We’re not disqualified. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (10:12.507)
Wow. Well then, and what do you mean by self abandonment? So I’ll say personally, doctor, when I heard this term and I didn’t really know what it meant. And I was like, I’m just kind of plowing forward. But a lot of us do abandon ourselves that we have and back to feelings and emotions. Can you explain it more?

Dr. Thema (10:16.226)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (10:29.761)
Yes.

Dr. Thema (10:34.282)
Yeah, it is self neglect, leaving ourselves behind. So it could be, you know, a workaholic imperfectionist. So now I’m not taking care of myself because I’m just driven to attain, attain, attain, but I’m neglecting my own rest and my own health. It could be abandoning myself socially where I silence myself, I censor myself. I pretend to be

who I think other people will like or accept or choose. And so then I’m having to perform and they don’t even really know me. So it’s like, is this really a friendship? Is this really intimacy if I’m pretending?

Kimberly Snyder (11:17.723)
Right, right. What do you say to clients or let’s say readers, it’s just too hard for them to see some of this work around self-relations. So then they’re constantly in the same pattern of relationships and they’re constantly blaming our, is this person is this, how do you keep bringing it back to this whole section in your book, self-work?

Dr. Thema (11:35.655)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So one, the first thing I want to say about that is if you are feeling lonely, I don’t subscribe to the idea that you just don’t love yourself. I think those are two different things and people shame a lot of people for feeling lonely and saying like, if you just loved yourself more, you wouldn’t feel that. No, you can love yourself and still desire companionship.

Kimberly Snyder (11:51.834)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (12:01.389)
Right? You can love yourself and still want connection. but then it’s about while I am on the journey that my love of myself can guide my choices. So, you know, for example, I remember when I was younger, I had a couple of people who were interested in me. None of them were really worthwhile, but I thought I had to pick the best of the bad choices. Right.

Kimberly Snyder (12:01.991)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (12:14.599)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (12:28.701)
Bye!

Dr. Thema (12:29.59)
So then it’s like, but this is the best one. It’s like, I have to say none of the above, right? I choose none of the above because I care for myself enough that I’m willing to wait. I’m willing to enjoy my own company. I’m willing to cultivate my life until someone is actually more of a blessing than a heartburn.

Kimberly Snyder (12:35.837)
I’m ready.

Kimberly Snyder (12:56.653)
So Dr. Tamah, can say personally, when I look back in high school and, you know, middle school, even high school, college, I was always in a relationship. And there sort of this not okay being by myself. And how do we build that confidence? Someone’s listening to this and they’re like, it’s great that you chose Dr. Tamah, but you had a really secure childhood. What are some of the tools or ways in which we can start to restore that wholeness?

Dr. Thema (13:05.303)
Hmm.

Dr. Thema (13:25.07)
Yeah, so it is to recognize What this other path and pattern has cost me? So I’m sabotaging myself Right. I’m sabotaging myself in my choosing and not only in my choosing but in how long I stay in toxic unhealthy circumstances and so I desire

Kimberly Snyder (13:34.044)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (13:52.138)
a better life. And I would say, you know, therapy to me is an act of faith or, using self-help books. It’s an act of faith. It is, I’m believing that I can grow into someone I have never been. Right. So I’m willing to take that risk because this other way of being is not serving me. It’s not working for me. It’s, it’s harmful. So to count the cost.

Kimberly Snyder (14:06.877)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (14:15.805)
Right.

Dr. Thema (14:18.08)
Right? Because if it’s not costing you anything, then you would say, why do I need to change? So can you see what the patterns and cycles have cost you?

Kimberly Snyder (14:29.563)
Yes. And for me, Dr. Tamah, was this, when you were talking about seeing this vision, for me, it’s really getting present. So when I’m in my heart and I’m right here, because I’m in the mind, I’m like, no, like, this is great. And I, it’s fun, I’m doing this. You don’t really see, but when we can start to get really still and really here, with self-compassion. this is what I’ve been acting out, right? So that.

Dr. Thema (14:50.349)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (14:55.899)
Deep self-awareness, like you said, is such an important part of the transformation process.

Dr. Thema (14:59.531)
Right. And checking in with yourself in the presence of other people. Right. Some people feel good to our nervous system, you know, feels good to your heart. We call it co-regulation. Some people, if you just look at your phone and they’re calling, it either excites you or it soothes you. You walk in and you see them. There’s a lightness, a lifting that happens. And then there are some people that we dread. So let me choose more.

Kimberly Snyder (15:04.988)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (15:11.62)
Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (15:22.62)
Nice!

Yes.

Dr. Thema (15:28.514)
to spend time with those who lighten me instead of those who weigh me down.

Kimberly Snyder (15:33.853)
We’ll see right there is such an important part of self-care because sometimes, especially as women, we’re led to believe you’re supposed to be nice to everyone. You’re supposed to like everyone, like make this work out. In your work, doctor, we’re all in the process of healing, right? And of course, we’re kindness, tolerance, but along the journey, we do have, we have to give ourselves that permission to nurture our environment. That’s what important to say.

Dr. Thema (15:42.286)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (15:59.468)
Yes, yeah, you know, it is, it’s very true. We sometimes have a messiah complex where we actually convince ourselves that it’s our job to rescue everyone. And then we pick friendship circles, we create friendship circles or romantic relationships where we’re always the strong one. And we never pick like iron sharpens iron.

Kimberly Snyder (16:08.029)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (16:25.186)
You know, like I love to be in the presence of gifted, smart, talented women where like I don’t have to be the only thing shining in the room, right? It’s inspiring. It’s beautiful to see people living their dreams. And so for us to be intentional and again, that self-awareness of have I created friendships that are all one sided?

Kimberly Snyder (16:36.54)
Okay.

Dr. Thema (16:53.698)
And sometimes we blame the other people and say, they’re selfish, they’re this, they don’t show up for me. Is there anything that I’m doing that contributes to that cycle? So sometimes it’s when I’m struggling, I isolate myself and hide so people never know that I’m in need. You know, I only show up when I’m shiny and can help everybody else. And so to be more authentic, more sincere, and to let people love you.

If I’m always on, I’m not actually in a loving mutual relationship.

Kimberly Snyder (17:27.641)
And similarly to romantic relationships, as they start to beware and go through some of your work in the book, you may level up or sometimes you kind of have to break up with some friends and then find new friends. You realize something really is toxic or maybe it has been one-sided. That’s scary for people.

Dr. Thema (17:36.834)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Thema (17:41.483)
Thank

Dr. Thema (17:46.69)
Mm-hmm. understandably so. We all like what’s familiar and what’s comfortable. Even though it’s dysfunctional, it could be just predictable of like, know how they are. you know, and so we put loyalty over our own peace of mind. So I’m going to be loyal to someone who’s breaking my spirit because I value loyalty.

but do I also value myself? And to set people free, there may be other people that are more aligned with them. So you all are spending all your time together and it’s not actually authentic or aligned. So it’s not only setting yourself free to find what aligns with you, but also letting them be free to find people who think like them and want to behave like them. Yeah, there’s freedom in that.

Kimberly Snyder (18:45.689)
As you’re speaking, doctor, I can think of examples, you in the book, you talk about friendships, you talk about romantic relationships, which I think a lot of people are drawn towards. This also carries over in work relationships. I can think about, you know, just situations, around me and in my husband’s company, just things you see where you’re like, there’s a dynamic here. It’s like some kind of like trauma, magnitude, like there’s just things happening and,

Dr. Thema (18:56.622)
us.

Dr. Thema (19:04.663)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Kimberly Snyder (19:13.743)
Sometimes you see it and the other person doesn’t. And that’s part of this journey as well as, you know, letting people unfold and giving them tools, but you can’t force people to see. Sometimes you see easier than you see yourself too.

Dr. Thema (19:16.856)
Thank you.

you

Dr. Thema (19:26.785)
Mm-hmm. Right. That’s very true. I’m glad you brought up workplace relationships because sometimes we think, I’m not here to make friends. I’m just here to work. Well, it’s still a large part of your day. They don’t have to be the best of friends, but the most of your hours are spent there. And so how do you want to treat people? How do you want to be treated? What could make things better?

Kimberly Snyder (19:41.213)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (19:53.798)
and being intentional about that. Sometimes we’re just into long suffering because this is another thing. I’m like not only not breaking up with friends or romantic partners, but not leaving jobs that are dead end jobs. And we’ve been there for years and we complain about it all the time. And I remember I was talking to someone who was complaining about her job. And I said, you know, have you ever thought about looking for something else? And she says,

Kimberly Snyder (20:08.049)
right?

Dr. Thema (20:22.798)
I only have 10 years till retirement. 10 years! That’s a long time! That’s a long time.

Kimberly Snyder (20:28.967)
my. And the flip side, Dr. Tamer is not letting someone go because there’s like a comfortability and an attachment. And then you’re kind of in this, you know, again, the deserving of the full potential that could be at your workplace.

Dr. Thema (20:40.27)
Yes. Right. Right. So then we’re looking for in any of these relationships, you know, have we tried to bring about change? So definitely, you know, communicate, express our concerns, our disappointments, our needs, the way we would like to be spoken to or the way we would like issues to be handled.

and see if there is the possibility of change or growth. Sometimes it is. Sometimes we have an issue and people hadn’t thought of it. It had not occurred to them. So sometimes people are genuinely surprised because that’s just not how they operate. And then other times, we’ve all experienced giving someone feedback and it was pointless, right? That nothing changed and they may have even gotten angry about the feedback.

Kimberly Snyder (21:32.089)
Also, there’s natural conflict in any sort of challenges we can say, can you tell us the line? What really are some of the characteristics when you know you’re in a healthy work relationship, romantic relationship, friendship, because it’s not gonna be smooth sailing all the time.

Dr. Thema (21:48.174)
Yes. A big indicator for us is to see how do we handle ruptures. There are going to be disagreements, there are going to be conflicts, but I can, they say you can disagree without being disagreeable. Do people go into bullying tactics? Are they then out to get you at the workplace? Are they taking your ideas or lying about you?

Kimberly Snyder (21:55.261)
Mm.

Dr. Thema (22:18.208)
So it’s the nature of what people are doing and then the possibility for change. And that has to be a desire from them, not us saying like, I’m going to change them. I’m going to win them over. You know, it’s like, how’s that working for you? Right? Do we see any signs of growth or progress or transformation, or are you just kind of beating your head against the wall?

Kimberly Snyder (22:42.013)
How do we know Dr. Tamah as a trauma expert and from this, what if you’re in a relationship with someone and we have gotten very similar questions to this and this person says, I’m going to change, I’m going to change, they’re very angry, very mentally or verbally abusive. And you’re like, well, they say they want to change and sometimes there’s change and sometimes it goes back. Where’s the line between exposing yourself to more trauma, self-respect versus helping someone grow, staying the course with someone you love? Sometimes it’s murky.

Dr. Thema (23:03.97)
Yes, ma’am.

Dr. Thema (23:10.06)
Yeah. Right. So, change is evidenced by consistency over time. So anybody can act good today cause you’re mad at them. Right. So they’re going to go get the flowers or they’re going to tell you they’re sorry. They’re going to do something nice to make up for it. but three days later is the same thing again. Then that is literally the cycle of abuse.

Kimberly Snyder (23:20.422)
Okay.

Kimberly Snyder (23:28.273)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (23:40.303)
and

Dr. Thema (23:40.542)
It’s literally the cycle that it’s guaranteed to go back to the way it was. So in order for people to change, part of it has to be like, do they get it? Is there, because it’s like a change in my thinking that can then result in a change in my behavior.

Kimberly Snyder (23:55.515)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (24:03.719)
So we have to be honest with ourselves instead of, I want this person to be like this.

Dr. Thema (24:05.748)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. So often we are in love with potential, right? If they were nice to me, this would be perfect, right? But they’re not nice to you. Yes. So instead of like the if onlys, to really look at someone in their current state, in their current condition, and say, can I sincerely say I embrace them, I affirm them,

Kimberly Snyder (24:13.595)
Bye.

Dr. Thema (24:35.304)
I choose them. If nothing changes, am I good with the way they are right now? And I know a part of it can be stage of life. You know, sometimes people in their early 20s, they’re like, we’re all just trying to figure it out. Right. And then people may have a different standard as they get older and they have figured some more things out than they may say, OK, in this season, I want to be with someone who has more clarity about themselves and about what they want.

Kimberly Snyder (25:05.071)
Yeah, well, I’ll share Dr. Tamah that one of the scariest, but ultimately amazing things that I went through was with my last partner, she’s really wasn’t a bad person. He wasn’t abusive, but there wasn’t this, like the deepening of connection that I would have wanted. And after my mom passed away suddenly, and we had this little infant, I was like, wow, like anything can really happen in life. So I did move out.

Dr. Thema (25:22.412)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Thema (25:30.86)
Mm-hmm. Yeah? Yes, Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (25:33.373)
became a single mom for a time and it was terrifying. It was not the life I imagined. I was crying in the closet. was like, you know, this is really horrible. But there was something that lit up in me and said, I don’t want to spend pretty young here. I want to spend the rest of my life in like, so shown it. So something had to click to say it’s scary, but

Dr. Thema (25:38.094)
Mmm… Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Dr. Thema (25:51.181)
Hmm.

Right. Yes. Yeah. huh. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (26:00.125)
There’s a potential and you know what? I moved out. My dad came with me because my mom had passed away. Like we lived our happy experience. And then when I felt really whole in myself and I’d been meditating for a while and just spent some time self-worked, just went out in the world and met my now husband at a dinner party. And it’s so, it’s all things, but the fear, Dr. Tate, I have lived out like, well, I know what I have and maybe I could just stick with it.

Dr. Thema (26:11.362)
Definitely. Yeah.

Beautiful. Yes.

Right? Yeah. I want to appreciate your testimony and the courage and the recognition that when you left, you didn’t have a backup. You know, sometimes, right? Some people are holding on until like they meet someone and like as you like having no time in between to heal, to process. And so that leap of faith. And I also want to say, along with your story, that it’s a success.

Kimberly Snyder (26:38.907)
Here’s my backup.

Kimberly Snyder (26:43.559)
Right.

Dr. Thema (26:55.424)
So many times when relationships end, people call it a failure, right? That it failed. And I want to say you succeeded. You succeeded. If you had stayed there, that would have been a failing of like your whole life in that condition.

Kimberly Snyder (27:00.079)
And.

Kimberly Snyder (27:03.773)
Mmm.

Kimberly Snyder (27:14.298)
Oof.

Sometimes it’s again the mind and say with compassion because there’s many people we know that stay in relationships, especially if children are involved. What would you say to them now, Dr. Tava? Would you say it’s never too late to claim?

Dr. Thema (27:24.514)
This is… this is…

Dr. Thema (27:32.618)
Right? Well, I think for, I think everyone has to choose for themselves, right? Cause it’s the life you’re going to have to live. And some people will want like me or a therapist or a cousin or somebody else to choose for them. Right? Like, what do you think I should do? And then they can forever blame you or hold you responsible for that choice. Right? So I’m like, I’m not choosing for you. That’s a part of healing is you have to reflect on the life.

Kimberly Snyder (27:38.352)
Sure.

Dr. Thema (28:01.43)
and say, I feel like the good outweighs the bad? Do I feel like what would be out there would be less fulfilling? And so I just want to keep staying. So one of the things I do like to raise is we say that relationships are work, which they are, but sometimes it’s like if we have an external issue or an external problem, then we’re working to

together to address that issue or that challenge. But the work shouldn’t be having to protect my heart because it’s being destroyed by the person who I have closest to me. That’s not that this is work. That’s like this is warfare. So I want to make another decision. But as you said, we also have grace. People stay for many different reasons.

Kimberly Snyder (28:43.576)
Right.

Dr. Thema (29:00.14)
cultural, religious, children, financial. And so I would just say, as long as you’re telling yourself the truth, right? Tell yourself the truth about why you’re there and what your expectations are and how you can maximize your life even as you’re living with this person. Tell yourself the truth.

Kimberly Snyder (29:25.553)
We really need space to do this work.

We live in a world that’s so many distractions and you can just keep going out or keep watching screens. It’s almost like, you when I look at your chapters too, doctor, when we’re talking about, we’ll get to that subject in a minute. But it’s like, it’s really, can be, you know, we call it like the dark heart phase where it’s like, there’s just a lot of you open up, this fear can come up or just a lot, right? So.

Dr. Thema (29:30.382)
We’ll talk.

Dr. Thema (29:35.234)
Same thing.

Kimberly Snyder (29:57.885)
We have to also be gentle and see our limits, but keep going into it because otherwise, like I look back at myself, it’s like a fork in the road. Then you can just get stuck or you stay in that same life.

Dr. Thema (30:08.674)
this.

Dr. Thema (30:12.332)
Yeah, yeah. And as you said, like the spaciousness to I call it sacred pause. You know, let me take pause and take inventory of my life, of my heart, of my relationships, because often we’re going through the motions. We’ve adjusted to the dysfunction. We have accepted it thinking like, well, this is, you know, what it looks like.

Kimberly Snyder (30:19.356)
You’re right.

Dr. Thema (30:39.562)
And so I’m just going to make the best of it. And so to slow down and pause, whether that means, you know, I want us to try to go to couples counseling, whether that means I’m journaling more so I can tell myself the truth and figure out what is the truth. If this person is tearing me down, being around positive, affirming people so I can rebuild my confidence and my esteem. yeah, taking time and space.

Kimberly Snyder (30:55.922)
next.

Dr. Thema (31:08.566)
to reflect and to heal and to choose. We have agency. So many times we’re focused on what other people did or said. And so then with narrative therapy, I start to say, what am I saying? What do I want to do that I have the capacity to act, not just acted upon. So what do, yeah, what do I want to do?

Kimberly Snyder (31:28.76)
Mm. Mm.

Can you share a little bit about the relationship with co-dependence and also still within healthy relationship having a sense of independence and time alone? Because sometimes we can get swallowed up. We’re close to this person, we do everything together.

Dr. Thema (31:50.38)
You’re right.

Yes, yeah. So it is important to, that’s a part of the self abandonment. And we set those dynamics and expectations up early of if people take it as an offense that you have any hobbies outside of them. Right? You know, it’s like, yeah. So it’s like, if they have no hobbies and they have no friends, then they’re going to expect that of you.

Kimberly Snyder (31:59.398)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (32:12.285)
Or keep on friends.

Dr. Thema (32:22.856)
And so yeah, you want to check that out.

Kimberly Snyder (32:23.933)
Thank you.

Well, even, you know, even the dynamic when my husband and I, I do need a lot of alone time. mean, even a busy life, have young kids, we’re doing, but I am a big meditator and he’s, sometimes he says to people, you know, I share my wife with God, but he’s going to accept that I’m to be down here in this space. And that’s just how it is. And you’re part of that evolve. accept your partner if it is that healthy communication.

Dr. Thema (32:37.208)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (32:41.294)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Thema (32:55.47)
Right, yeah. And, you know, so one on his part, accepting and probably even I would say, affirming, like of all the things to share my wife with, like what a special thing that, you know, the thing she’s into is God, right? So that’s beautiful. And, you know, I would say, you know, a sense of it being admirable versus how he might respond if it was something else.

that was taking your attention. And I would also say when he makes requests or even if it’s a complaint to hear it as, you know, he desires some time together. you know, it’s the balancing act.

Kimberly Snyder (33:39.153)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (33:43.975)
Sometimes it’s funny because he says it, in different ways. Besides the meditation, I know he wants more attention from me because I give so much to the kids. Sometimes it’ll be little jabs. Again, because I’ve gotten so good at listening and being still, I can start to hear underneath, this is what he’s saying. He needs more attention. But again, back to the arc of your book, which is the self-work helps us in our relationship.

Dr. Thema (33:51.668)
Mm. Uh-huh.

Dr. Thema (34:00.75)
Okay.

Dr. Thema (34:11.906)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (34:12.253)
What would you say if someone is really doing a lot of work and then their partner isn’t?

Dr. Thema (34:18.956)
Yeah, that’s often a common theme. And first, let me just go back to your point about the children. I hear this a lot with parents. And one of the recommendations I make is for the partner who’s feeling neglected to help more with the children. Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (34:26.939)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (34:40.545)
I’m gonna go tell on that right now. This is hilarious.

Dr. Thema (34:44.206)
Right? It’s like, yeah, I’m taking all this time with them. It’s because all these things need to get done. So if you take some things off my list, we could finish sooner. And then we could enjoy a movie or something. Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (34:50.428)
Exactly.

Kimberly Snyder (34:57.799)
And that’s part of that real communication. Cause he’s like, well, I don’t go out all the time. I’m the dad who’s home the most. Like you’re in the house, but you’re not actually like, do it. And I love it. And you know, then the dynamic where I do enjoy taking on. So there’s, you know, there’s just so much to see Dr. Tamah and it’s not one answer, is it?

Dr. Thema (35:04.172)
Yeah, present or engaged. Like,

Dr. Thema (35:19.904)
Yeah, right, it’s not, but I want to go back to your point of when we’re working on ourselves, people grow and change over time, and we don’t always evolve at the same pace or in the same direction. And so expressing not, you know, as an attack or complaint, but expressing a desire

for some of this evolving or growing or learning or inner work, hoping you all could do some of it together. And just see what they say with that. Because usually there are number of different things you could do, so they may not be a reader.

And they say, I don’t want to read all those books. OK. Then mindful walking or go hear a speaker who’s dynamic or interesting. So looking at, are there any parts of this that we could share? Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (36:17.085)
Hmm. Hmm. Well, speaking about no right or wrong, there’s an interesting chapter here, chapter 12, healing from infidelity. Now, this is a sticky subject. Some people would say, you know, I’ve been cheated on, I’m done. Some people I have friends where both partners cheated and they both worked through. I mean, I don’t even, a lot.

Dr. Thema (36:31.299)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (36:34.579)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. It’s again one of those where we have to choose. And I have worked with people who choose both, that there are people, and I’ve seen both in some ways feel like a success. So some people who left.

Kimberly Snyder (36:47.313)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (36:59.082)
and said, like, I’m not going to continue to be disrespected or dishonored in that way. And whether I immediately find someone else or not, just for my own well-being and self-preservation, I’m stepping away from that. And that can be a success. And then as you name, there are people who work through it, who stay together and say,

you know this happened like 10 years ago and we’re glad we stayed together we’re the best of friends and we matured and grew and and then you also have those who stayed and it happened again right kept happening the pattern multiple times and you also hear those stories of people who left and then went back

Right? So like we’re reunited because they worked on themselves or missed each other.

Kimberly Snyder (37:49.053)
you

Kimberly Snyder (37:54.269)
And so it’s not fair to have any sort of overarching label. Once a cheater, always a cheater. I remember getting told, you know, once you have an eating disorder, you always have it. And I can honestly say that’s not true because I have a really healthy relationship with food now and I used to have an eating disorder. So, people.

Dr. Thema (37:59.147)
All

Dr. Thema (38:13.186)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So yeah, people can change. A big part is do they want to? And I’ll tell you, you know, I’ve worked with clients who like literally have never been faithful in their lives. Just the spouse didn’t know about it. And so they will authentically, honestly say to me, I’m not sure I can. Like I never spent extended time only with one person.

Kimberly Snyder (38:19.994)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (38:35.804)
Right?

Dr. Thema (38:39.828)
So, you we can think about that in the physical or sexual sense, but there’s an emotional piece to that as well. Where I’m looking for escape, looking for this kind of false affirmation that I associate my spouse with the work of home life. And so I’m looking for something else or just bored or trying to boost my esteem.

And so the motivation has to be there and then the change of behaviors, because there are certain behaviors that lead.

to the infidelity. So catch it early instead of dismissing some things as, it’s innocent, right? We’re just messaging each other on social media, but it’s innocent or, you know, kind of flirting with a coworker, but it’s innocent flirting at Starbucks, right? But I didn’t ask for her phone number, right? So all of those things are pathways to it. And so cutting off the pathway. Yeah. Yes.

Kimberly Snyder (39:31.279)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (39:40.303)
Right. I mean, again, it’s like, come on, don’t put yourself in that position, but it has to be that choice.

Dr. Thema (39:48.042)
Right, that they actually want to because are they, do they have regret because they risk their marriage, because they hurt their spouse, or are they just upset they got caught and are going to be more careful? And that’s very different.

Kimberly Snyder (40:02.505)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, talking about connection, right? We want to feel, I mean, as humans, maybe I don’t want to make this blanket statement, but we do want to feel connection. So what would you say about some people that have a pattern of saying they have a lot of friends, but they’re not really deep. Like they don’t really show themselves. It’s not a deep connection. It’s maybe just a lot of people around and then…

Dr. Thema (40:20.077)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Snyder (40:28.273)
They do still feel lonely or when there’s tough times, they don’t really have anyone to rely on. What is that?

Dr. Thema (40:32.886)
Yeah, I would say, you know, take the risk of going deeper. Often it’s a fear of rejection, a fear of abandonment, a fear of judgment that if I really let them in, like if they really saw the truth of me, what would they think about me? So I can’t let anyone get too close. have to.

Kimberly Snyder (40:46.331)
Eh.

Dr. Thema (40:56.626)
always be on, right? Always doing public relations of how are you? I’m fabulous. It’s like really every day, every day fabulous. So what I have found, right? Very, very surface. And we’re saying we’re friends. Meanwhile, we’re facing all these issues that we don’t talk about. So often I find if one of the friends take the risk of going deeper, then other people will often meet them there.

Kimberly Snyder (41:01.511)
Yeah.

Kimberly Snyder (41:05.583)
Yeah, very serious.

Dr. Thema (41:23.882)
right? That people may say like me too if you say like I’m exhausted or I’m struggling with this parenting issue or I’ve just been you know panicking about work because of these changes. People may have had a similar experience in the past or maybe going through something similar in the present and so we invite intimacy by taking the risk and you see how who can meet you there.

Some people won’t meet you there. Some people might respond with judgment and then you know, okay, that’s not somebody for my inner circle. That’s somebody who for my kind of larger circle. That’s just like an acquaintance. But there are people who will meet us in the depths of intimacy and who are desiring it too.

Kimberly Snyder (42:12.157)
Yeah, and I noticed in just all the examples that you said, doctor, that it was starting with vulnerability. I’m struggling with this, da da. If we start those kinds of conversations attacking, hey, you know, really bothers me because you’re always doing this. It’s probably not gonna get.

Dr. Thema (42:26.732)
Yeah, and then people are going to defend, they’re going to justify, they’re going to attack back and say, well, you blah, blah. So instead we offer it as an invitation.

Kimberly Snyder (42:38.425)
Right. And these tools, you have so many tools for these specific categories that you go through in your book. And this was one chapter I really liked because I really connect to this word gentle. It’s gentleness, healing harshness and releasing warrior mode. Could you touch on that a little bit?

Dr. Thema (42:44.92)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Thema (42:53.26)
Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Many of us, as you named, have lived through trauma or abandonment. And so we learned we couldn’t really depend on people, learned that people will let us down. And so we had to fight. And being in fight mode all the time can make us defensive, can make us reject people who actually could have been for us.

that we will easily see slights in offense and be quick to cut people off because we’re approaching everything as a war and that’s exhausting to us and it also closes us off from the possibility of real connection and so many of us equate gentleness with weakness and it’s not a weakness to be gentle. I think they

Kimberly Snyder (43:35.409)
Yeah.

Dr. Thema (43:53.388)
Connecting with like being a doormat or letting people walk all over you. No, it’s just being Calm and grounded in your truth

Kimberly Snyder (43:53.522)
Mm.

Kimberly Snyder (44:04.273)
Beautiful. There’s a section of the Bhagavad Gita where it talks about these 15 soul qualities. And I believe the Sanskrit word is hriti, if I’m saying it right, but it’s gentleness. And it says in this ancient text, doctor, when we’re gentle, it’s like this light, this radiance comes out because you’re like warriors armored, like hardened. And we can have different personality types, but armored up is a different type of energy.

Dr. Thema (44:05.102)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Thema (44:14.2)
then.

Dr. Thema (44:21.694)
Yes. Yes. Right.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right, yeah. That’s trauma. And I’m glad you said personality, because some people, because they had to fight from so young, they think that’s their identity. They’re like, that’s just me. And it’s like, that’s who you had to become, but it’s actually not you.

Kimberly Snyder (44:43.28)
Right.

Kimberly Snyder (44:49.181)
Mmm. Deep down, do believe that everyone is naturally gentle and kind.

Dr. Thema (44:56.046)
Yeah, and I will say, you know, there’s a range in that or the way we show that is different. But when people feel safe, you can say like the person who’s, let’s say the meanest at work, there’s often somebody in their life that when they’re in that person’s presence, they soften. Okay, so when you come out of battle mode,

Kimberly Snyder (45:19.569)
Mmm.

Dr. Thema (45:23.304)
and actually allow yourself to feel safe or your circumstances safer, then often we can release some of that armor.

Kimberly Snyder (45:33.415)
Beautiful. Well, Dr. Tama, there’s so much incredible wisdom in your book. I loved all of it. I love your title. I love your energy. I love what you’re sharing. Is there anything that we didn’t cover that you’d like to share about your brand new book?

Dr. Thema (45:40.792)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (45:49.33)
Yes, I will just say from the chapter, releasing people who don’t love you is sometimes again, we’ve talked about walking away and that is simply accepting truth, right? That there will be people who care about you and they won’t require so much like convincing and contorting yourself. And so if you’re in the presence of people who repeatedly show they don’t care,

Kimberly Snyder (45:55.133)
Mmm.

Dr. Thema (46:16.172)
than for you to accept the truth of that and free yourself to find people who do.

Kimberly Snyder (46:22.673)
Beautiful, beautiful, so powerful. So everyone, Dr. Tama’s book is out again this week. It’s very exciting, Matters of the Heart. She’s holding it up. If you’re watching this on YouTube, we will also link to it in the show notes. Once again, the full title, Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love. Dr. Tama, tell us where we can get the book. Tell us where we can find out more about you and your work.

Dr. Thema (46:25.944)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (46:34.176)
Yes.

Dr. Thema (46:48.84)
Yes, wherever books are sold, you can get Matters of the Heart and also I recorded in Audible. So if you’d listen to it, that’s available as well.

Kimberly Snyder (46:59.915)
I love that option. It’s convenient in today’s world. I find with my books, it just becomes more in the audible form. And then you can listen to while you’re driving in your cars.

Dr. Thema (47:01.482)
Yeah.

Okay.

Dr. Thema (47:08.842)
Yeah. Right, right. It’s true. I love it.

Kimberly Snyder (47:13.149)
I’m glad you recorded your own audible.

Dr. Thema (47:15.594)
Yeah, I was glad they gave me the opportunity to do that. I enjoyed it.

Kimberly Snyder (47:20.443)
Lovely. Well, thank you again so much, Doctor. This has been such a wonderful, calming, I will say, conversation full of wisdom, and your book is wonderful. Congratulations for birthing it into the world.

Dr. Thema (47:30.274)
Thank you.

Dr. Thema (47:34.766)
Thank you and thank you for your wonderful conversation and questions. I enjoyed spending time with you.

Kimberly Snyder (47:42.717)
Thank you. And thank you everyone so much for tuning in. Remember the show notes and direct links to Dr. Tamah’s book and her work are going to be at mysaloonah.com. And we’ll be back here as always Thursday for our next Q &A show. Also, while you’re online, you can submit questions for the show up there. Please share this show, by the way, with anyone that you think would benefit from.

healthier relationships and having more of this knowledge about self advocating and creating that and what’s possible. So I really encourage you to share this episode with anyone that you think. So thank you so much in advance and look forward to connecting with you further. We’ll see you back here Thursday. Take care.

Kimberly Snyder (48:29.221)
Yay, doctor!

Dr. Thema (48:29.998)
Yay!