True Beauty and Getting Past Comparison with Tammin Sursok and Roxy Manning [Episode #571]

This week’s topic is: True Beauty and Getting Past Comparison with Tammin Sursok and Roxy Manning

I am so excited to have my very special guests, Tammin Sursok and entertainment host Roxy Manning, who co-hosts a podcast called Women On Top. Listen in as we discuss how to deal with the thought of not being enough, perfectionism and struggles with achievements, and how to raise our kids in a world of beauty.

[BULLETS]

• How to deal with not being enough and comparison…
• Perfectionism and struggles with achievements…
• Evolving over time and doing our best…
• What to teach our children in a world of beauty…
• How we view beauty…
• Self-worth and what it’s based on…
• Female sexual empowerment and where to find the balance…
• The ladies share their personal message and hope for all women and people everywhere…

[FEATURED GUESTS]

About Tammin Sursok

Tammin is an Emmy nominated, Logie Award-winning actress, producer, director, writer, entrepreneur and platinum selling recording star. She is the co-host of the Women on Top podcast.

[FEATURED GUESTS]

About Roxy Manning 

Roxy is a celebrity interviewer, on-camera entertainment host, social media influencer, and fashion expert. She is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of popular style and entertainment website, RedCarpetRoxy.com, and is the co-host of the Women on Top podcast.

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Tammin and Roxy’s Interview

• Tammin and Roxy’s Podcast
• Roxy’s Website

Other Podcasts you may enjoy!:

• True Beauty Boosting Tips
• Health and Beauty Benefits Using Common Spices with Kanchan Koya
• How to Live Free of Comparison
• Dissolving Comparison and Living in a Beautiful State with Preethaji and Krishnaji

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Transcript:

Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Kimberly: Hey Beauties, and welcome back to our Monday interview podcast. I’m so excited for our interview today. I’m interviewing actress Tammin Sursok and entertainment host Roxy Manning, who co-hosts a podcast called Women On Top. And I was recently on their podcast and it was so much fun. We laughed. We talked about life and the Four Cornerstones. And today I interviewed them talking about just really navigating tuning into our true beauty and being a mother, being a working mom, juggling a lot of different things in life, and how to really deal with just so much imagery so much around how we maintain our sense of self and our true beauty and our confidence. So super interesting interview today. I’m so excited to share it with you.

Fan of the Week

Kimberly: Before we dive in, I’m going to give a quick shout out to our fan of the week. Her name is Novelist Girl, and she writes, “Thank you. This is my first time listening to your podcast. And I really loved it. It felt so true that I got teary eyed listening to your story and how you met your husband. Thank you for sharing your story and your light in the world.” Well, thank you so much, Novelist Girl. I love it. Thank you for joining our community. I love that you listened to one podcast and left a review. It means the world to me. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And look forward to connecting further.

Leave a Review on iTunes

Kimberly: And my loves, for your chance to also be shouted out as our fan of the week for me to read your beautiful words, please just head over to iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to our podcast and leave us a review. It could be one sentence or two, super easy, super simple. It’s free, and it again, could just take literally two minutes or so.

Kimberly: So I thank you so much in advance. It really does help to support the show. And while you’re over there, please be sure to subscribe to our show, and that way in the flow of life when you’re super busy and there’s a lot of stuff coming at you, you don’t miss out on any of these interview podcasts or our Thursday Q and A podcast as well. All right, all that being said, let’s get into our interview today with Tammin and Roxy.

Interview with Tammin Sursok and Roxy Manning

Kimberly: 00:01:41 Thank you guys so much for being here on the podcast. I just-

Tammin Sursok: 00:01:45 Thank you for having us.

Roxy Manning: 00:01:45 Super excited.

Kimberly: 00:01:47 I was just on your podcast and learned, Roxy, that we connected 10 years ago at the Beauty Detox Solution. [inaudible 00:01:55] by Channing Tatum. It was this whole red carpet thing.

Tammin Sursok: 00:01:59 Channing who? Oh my gosh, just the sexiest guy on the planet.

Roxy Manning: 00:02:03 Well, Kimberly, do you remember how crazy that night was? Because there was people coming in, and there was a crush of people that were in the lobby that were trying to get close to everything going on. And I just remember security was sort of pushing people back because you guys have Drew Barrymore was there, Hilary Duff, Fergie. I mean, there were a lot of high profile people. So girl, you were on the map.

Tammin and Roxy share how they’ve evolved from the Hollywood world and to where they are now

Kimberly: 00:02:33 It’s so funny, you guys, because I’m looking out my window here, and I live in the forest now. I live in the mountains, and my life is just so different from that. And I love my clients, of course, and I keep in touch with them. But now I’m a mom. I know you guys are moms too. It just shows how life evolves. But that was the beginning of my career, and I was working with those actors for many years. But now my life is different. I love to hear a little bit about your stories. You guys are also from the Hollywood world. Can you share a little bit about how you got into it, how you got into where you are now?

Tammin Sursok: 00:03:15 I actually was born in … I’m Tammin. Hi. I guess you’re like, who are you? Most people know me in America from a show called Pretty Little Liars. I played-

Kimberly: 00:03:27 [inaudible 00:03:27].

Tammin Sursok: 00:03:27 Yeah. The girl who’s visually impaired, who can’t see, who is like a villain. So, everyone was very afraid of me. And I’m like, I’m a really nice person, I swear. I would say first and foremost I am an actor. There’s a lot of other things that I love to do and I have done in my life, but I started acting when I was 15 years old, in Australia. I don’t know if I would recommend being a child actor to people, only because I think those formative years were a little convoluted and a little mixed up for me, because I didn’t really get the college experience, learning about making friendships, breaking friendships, having boyfriends, really, that wasn’t in the public eye. We talked about this on our podcast, but I had an interesting upbringing, being in the public eye from 15 to about 21 years old. We’re talking about eating disorders, I had a lot of low self-esteem.

Tammin Sursok: 00:04:22 I really became obsessed with … Maybe the word’s not obsessed. But I started to fall in love with health and wellness, and we were talking about this on our show, just about learning about learning about myself, how to self love through health and meditation. And then I came to the States when I was 22 years old on a hope and a dream that something would happen. And my parents … I had bought a house in Australia from the money I’d made as a child actor, but I had no money in the States. And my parents were like … I remember the day. I was 22 years old, and they said, “We’re not paying for anything any more. You’re on your own.” I don’t know why my dad sounds like that. He sounds like a grumpy old man. He’s not, really. And I remember sitting there going, praying to God, the universe, whatever I believed in at the time, a higher being, I was like, please, please give me … I should probably be praying about world peace. But I was like, please give me a job so I don’t have to go home.

Tammin Sursok: 00:05:25 And I remember two days later, I actually got a job in the States. And the rest was history, and I’ve been able to work in film and TV ever since then. I met my husband at 22 years old.

Kimberly: 00:05:37 Wow.

Tammin Sursok: 00:05:38 Yeah. So, I’ve been with him quite a long time. I have two young girls. I’ve got two daughters, two young girls. One is seven years old, one is two years old. And right now, just trying to navigate life with kids, and wanting to be a working momma, and trying to figure it all out. And I do not have it figured out, by the way. I’m the opposite of having it figured out, yeah.

What they would say to their kiddos if they want to be an actor

Kimberly: 00:06:05 Tammin, would you say if your daughter said to you, hey, we want to be actors, we want to be child actors, what would you say to them?

Tammin Sursok: 00:06:12 Yeah. I had this conversation with my husband, actually, this week. [Phoenix 00:06:19] is my oldest, and she will definitely get into the arts in some way. She definitely wants you to sit down, and she wants to put on the performance, and she wants you to laugh. And oh gosh, poor kid is already wanting validation from the outside world. But I said to him that she cannot get in … Well, I will not let her, as long as I’m her guardian … Til she’s 18 years old. When she’s able to make her own decisions at 18 years old, then she can get into the arts. I will help her in any way I can with the contacts we have. But until then, I don’t think it’s that healthy, when your child hasn’t really developed their full frontal lobe to know what right or wrong is, and to be making those adult decisions. For me, we’re going to wait until she’s 18.

Roxy Manning: 00:07:11 I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say that, Tammin. I really commend you on that.

Tammin Sursok: 00:07:14 Oh, really?

Roxy Manning: 00:07:14 Yeah. I really commend you on that.

Tammin Sursok: 00:07:15 I mean, she’s been approached to do things now. She’s seven. And I’m like, no.

Roxy Manning: 00:07:19 Good.

Kimberly: 00:07:19 Yeah. Just holding that healthy boundary and knowing, as her momma, what feels good to you with your experiences.

Tammin Sursok: 00:07:26 And it’s about your own experience, too. I think sometimes we see these child actors with these moms that just want to … It’s what their kid wants to do. And I love that. It’s like, the kid wants to do it and they want to be supportive because they’re a great mom, and I get it. But knowing how it messed me up and it took me … And this is what’s ironic, too. I have great parents. I have a great foundation, and I was still messed up from it. Because I was not an adult, in an adult world, trying to make decisions as an adult. And I had many, not terrible MeToo moments, but a lot of MeToo moments because again, I’m not an adult, in an adult world, trying to make these decisions. And I don’t want that for my kid.

Kimberly: 00:08:10 Yeah.

Roxy Manning: 00:08:11 You know, we had Tori Spelling come on our podcast, Kimberly, and I remember … Tammin, I think you might remember her saying this. But she said that she felt like many actors, whatever age they are when they get famous or get that first blast, is sort of when their emotional growth stops.

Tammin Sursok: 00:08:31 Growing.

Kimberly: 00:08:31 Yes. I have heard that.

Roxy Manning: 00:08:34 Right? And that’s sort of the point. And I thought she made a very valid point. What do you guys think about that?

Tammin Sursok: 00:08:40 Yeah. I would say my emotional maturity when I’m overwhelmed and stressed, which I’ve heard most people’s emotional maturity goes down to much younger than they are, is back to that girl. Because imagine being 15 years old and everyone’s saying yes. And of course, you can do this, and of course, you can have this. And oh, you don’t need to get your own water, I’ll get it for you. It sounds good in theory, but then you have no resilience as an adult. I couldn’t fly by myself for the longest time because I always had people to do that with me. I’d never been in a situation where I could soothe myself and be like oh, this is turbulence, I know how to talk myself through it. I always had an outside source to go, oh my goodness, I’m nervous, what’s happening? And they would soothe me. So, I have had a long struggle with learning how to soothe myself because I never had to learn. And that’s why I think the emotional maturity of young, child actors kind of stops, and stays at that certain age.

Kimberly: 00:09:54 Wow. That’s a really interesting way to put it. I had never heard about it that way. But yeah, it’s hard enough not being an actor, going through these periods and trying to figure out our sense of self, and how we fit into the collective. And suddenly, I think being that, you’re like, pedestalled. It could really mess with your head.

Tammin Sursok: 00:10:16 And the rejection, too, isn’t … Imagine being rejected normally in college, from a guy. Cool. Or being rejected from your friend group or whatever. That sucks. But imagine being rejected hundreds and hundreds of times a year for every … You’re putting yourself out there to audition, audition, audition, audition. It’s like no, you’re too skinny. You’re too fat. You’re too funny. You’re not funny enough. Your hair is too long. Your hair is too short. You’re too blonde. You’re too this. And a lot of it’s physical, like we were talking about. It’s physical that they’re talking about, that you’re not good enough. And then you go, well, no wonder you have shitty self-esteem. You have to retrain yourself.

Roxy shares her background

Kimberly: 00:10:56 I want to get into that. First, Roxy, could you give your quick little background, and then dive in?

Roxy Manning: 00:11:02 Sure, yeah. I’m originally from Dallas, born and raised in Texas.

Kimberly: 00:11:08 Texas girl.

Roxy Manning: 00:11:08 Yeehaw. Little Southern charm here.

Tammin Sursok: 00:11:14 Say, y’all.

Roxy Manning: 00:11:15 Y’all. Y’all.

Tammin Sursok: 00:11:16 And now you’re an LA girl.

Roxy Manning: 00:11:18 And now I’m an LA girl. I knew I loved growing up in Texas, but I knew I wanted to explore other places and live other places, and I always have loved travel. For me, I knew that I wanted to go to college either in New York or California. Warm weather won out, so I went to USC for undergrad, and graduated there. And moved to New York. I actually started out auditioning, and trying to do the acting thing.

Tammin Sursok: 00:11:48 I didn’t know that.

Roxy Manning: 00:11:48 Yes, girl. Yes. Back in the day. Back in the day. Yeah. I started out doing that, but then I slowly … Well, not slowly. But I went to Sundance as an actor to make connections and get out there, and I ended up meeting somebody who gave me an opportunity to be a red carpet host. And I had never done it before, and to his credit, he just sort of threw me out there. And was like, okay, here. Here’s your first interview. And it was Pierce Brosnan. And he’s like, go. And I was like, okay, okay. I will do that. So, I kind of got bit by that live, really exciting, think on your feet kind of feel. And from there, I just kept building it and I started getting clients, and then I started doing red carpets. I was living in New York at the time, New York and Los Angeles and Sundance. And so then my husband and I made the move over to Los Angeles.

Roxy Manning: 00:12:48 I convinced him. He’s a diehard East Coaster, from Boston, lived in New York for 15 years. Yes, he was like, “Okay. I’ll go to LA for a year.” Mind you, that was 13 years ago. He’s not looking back. So, came out to Los Angeles, was covering red carpets. I launched my blog, Red Carpet Roxy, in 2009, which is when I met you, Kimberly. Around that time, the first time.

Kimberly: 00:13:13 2011.

Roxy Manning: 00:13:14 Yes, that’s right, that’s right. Right around, on the carpet. From there, have covered Paris Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week every season, Sundance, the Oscars, Golden Globes. You name it, I’ve been there. And then Tammin and I met [inaudible 00:13:33]. It was love at first sight.

Tammin Sursok: 00:13:34 And it was love at first sight.

Kimberly: 00:13:36 Where did you guys meet?

Roxy Manning: 00:13:38 Okay, I guess technically we met-

Tammin Sursok: 00:13:41 At school.

Roxy Manning: 00:13:42 Yeah, at school. Yeah, school I think is where we-

Tammin Sursok: 00:13:44 Kids’ school.

Roxy Manning: 00:13:45 Yeah. Our kids do go to school together.

Tammin Sursok: 00:13:49 Yeah. Yeah. And I would start talking, and she would finish my sentences. Or, she would start talking and I would finish her sentences. And I was like, “I want to start a podcast. Who should I do it with?” And it was like, bing, bing, bing.

Roxy Manning: 00:13:59 And the winner is-

Kimberly: 00:13:59 I love it. You guys were momma friends.

Roxy Manning: 00:14:04 Yes.

Tammin Sursok: 00:14:06 Yes.

Roxy Manning: 00:14:07 Yes. And it was funny, because with Tammin there were so many natural conversations that we both experienced that we were both feeling, and it just was the perfect platform for us to start our Women On Top podcast, because we knew other people out there must be going through the same thing.

Tammin Sursok: 00:14:23 And we’d always have conversations something like oh, we should record this. Well, we should record this. We’d speak an hour about how we … I don’t know. How we can’t get the kids to take a bath. I’m like, we should record this. I feel like people have the same issues.

Roxy Manning: 00:14:41 Totally. Nothing was off the table, basically, because Tammin and I both have very similar senses of humor. Nothing is really censored on our podcast. We put it all out there for the good and for the bad.

Tammin Sursok: 00:14:53 Everything.

Roxy Manning: 00:14:54 Everything, yes.

Tammin Sursok: 00:14:56 Everything.

Kimberly: 00:14:56 Well, you just have an amazing podcast. I feel so connected to you guys both, and it is the beauty about even though we’re at a distance, Zoom, I can see you guys. And we’re just hearing your experiences, something that women all go through. Obviously it’s this comparing, and not feeling good enough.

Tammin Sursok: 00:15:18 Oh my lord, mm-hmm (affirmative).

We discuss how to deal with not being enough and comparison

Kimberly: 00:15:19 We do a Thursday Q&A podcast here, and we get a lot of questions from the community about not feeling enough. And especially in your guys’ fields. I think about, it’s different when I worked with celebrities because I was a support person. I was helping them feel their best, and then they’re the ones on camera. They’re the ones out there. But when you’re on camera, as you both were, you have to dress a certain way and be a certain way, people are dressing too, and it’s easy to look around and to be like, she’s skinnier, or she’s prettier, whatever. I know this is a longer question, but some thoughts. How do you deal with that? I can imagine that could be incredibly tough when your sense of self is being compared, or you compare yourself outwardly and it’s so in your face.

Tammin Sursok: 00:16:07 It’s interesting you said that.

Roxy Manning: 00:16:08 And social media doesn’t help, right?

Tammin Sursok: 00:16:09 Oh, my goodness.

Kimberly: 00:16:11 And there’s that aspect, yes.

Tammin Sursok: 00:16:12 It’s so weird. I’ve had the worst week this week. It’s weird that you said that. And I had to meditate on it, and I went, why did I have a … Not a bad week, things happened. A bad emotional week, mental week. And I was like, why? Why, why, why, why, why? And I just went for a long walk and I was like, oh, it’s because I’m comparing myself to everyone that is doing better in my field, or who looks better, or who is making more money. And all these things, like yes, I believe that money is great for survival. I think it’s interesting to learn that once you’ve had your basic needs met, people aren’t necessarily that much happier. Once you’ve got food, shelter, warmth, then all these people who have got a lot of money, people who have some money … And make sure that your kids can go to the doctor. There isn’t that much more happiness, and yet we compare so much about what people have and what they’re doing. And I’ve just been in a funk because of it.

Tammin Sursok: 00:17:23 But I’ll let Roxy talk, because I don’t really know … And maybe that’s why it’s great to be on this podcast. I don’t know how to stop myself from doing it, because like I said, I’ve been trained to. I’ve been trained to go, oh, you didn’t get the part because you were 5’6″ instead of 5’8″. Or, you didn’t get the part because you don’t look like the mother, or you’re too … Whatever it is. You’re too old, you’re too young. I don’t even know what it’s like to not compare. I don’t know. I think Roxy’s better at it than I am, for some reason.

Kimberly: 00:17:54 Thank you for being so honest, Tammin, because especially coming from someone who’s so successful and beautiful, it’s just nice to know that everybody has those feelings.

Tammin Sursok: 00:18:06 Oh, yeah. And they get to me. They get to me, and it makes me a miserable person to be around. I have to be careful, because it’s not my kids and my husband. It’s not their fault that I struggle with that, so they can’t be the brunt of my self-loathing in that moment.

Kimberly: 00:18:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Roxy Manning: 00:18:26 You know what, Tammin, I was just going to say, I definitely feel like I do the same. I definitely compare, because it’s in this business that we’re in, we’re constantly … It’s almost like you’re always competitive with somebody else. There’s more than one person going for whatever job, or whatever account, or what brand wants to work with. It always feels very competitive, and I mean I do it too. I go down the rabbit hole, especially with social media. I will scroll, and I’ll be like, oh, well that girl is doing that red carpet. Or, oh God, she got on that show. And those thoughts are normal and natural. I mean, definitely I feel it too. I just don’t know. For me, I think maybe because you were in the business starting out so young that it was so part of your … You were still a kid, when you’re growing up in this business. I will say maybe it’s been a little helpful that I didn’t start until a little bit later. Maybe after college. But I mean, I still compare. I still do the same thing.

Roxy Manning: 00:19:41 Just, you know what it is for me? I’ve really had to take a step back and be like, I can’t control this. I can’t control. I can only control how I feel, and I know which is easier said than done. But I really have had to learn … Because I am a controlling person. I have really had to try to just let go and just be like, okay. I can’t do anything about that. I can’t do that this girl got whatever campaign that I wanted, or she got the job that I wanted. I’ve had to just let go. And it’s the hardest thing in the world to do. I mean, doesn’t come natural for me, at least.

Kimberly: 00:20:17 No. I don’t think it comes natural for most people, especially the way society is set up. But I feel like for me as I have progressed, and we’ve talked a lot. We talk a lot about meditation, the three of us.

Roxy Manning: 00:20:29 I know.

Kimberly: 00:20:31 And this miracle journey which, for me, is not just to feel calm. For me, it’s a place to go deeper, deeper down. Like, deep, deep down where things like oh, is that person making more money? Whatever. There’s a place, and I’ve contacted it. And then you want to spend more time there. There’s a place where that stuff doesn’t matter. And it’s like when you’re scuba diving. I think about this analogy. Do you guys scuba dive?

Tammin Sursok: 00:20:57 I would love to.

Roxy Manning: 00:20:58 I tried it on my honeymoon. I haven’t done it since.

Perfectionism and struggles with achievements

Kimberly: 00:21:01 When you get out of the boat and it’s choppy and crazy, you deflate your vest and then you start to go down. And underneath, it suddenly gets really, really calm. For me, that has struggled with perfectionism and struggled with achievements, and I used to be really competitive about grades. There was something called the top 10 where I went to high school, and if you were in the top 10 of your class, your name and your picture and where you were going to college got published in the local newspaper. And I’ll tell you guys, I was obsessed with this. And I would calculate grades, and-

Roxy Manning: 00:21:34 We’re taught to be obsessed with it.

Kimberly: 00:21:37 I understand that, and just, you know what? I’ve come to this idea, and I want to hear how this lands with you guys. Because I can feel that it building, and it’s something that we need to wrap our head around. But it’s this idea, and I put this quote on social media. We are each unique. We each have this unique blueprint, this DNA, the soul, whatever you want to say. God, the universe, made each of us completely unique. If we go down to that level, you can’t really be compared. Because even though someone may be going for the same job, you are still this completely unique being. How does that land with you guys? Are you like, yeah, sure, but … Or does that resonate at all?

Tammin Sursok: 00:22:17 Yeah. I would like-

Kimberly: 00:22:20 [inaudible 00:22:20].

Roxy Manning: 00:22:20 I’m like-

Tammin Sursok: 00:22:20 The problem with it is that you feel like you can control some of it. It’s like, well, if you had this or … Especially with acting, it’s like well, they chose someone who is English. Then you go, well, I can’t be English, but I could probably have an impeccable English accent. It’s this weird, fine line of well, how can you be … How is competition, and this is a good conversation to have too. When is competition good? Because it forces you to be better. And when is competition, comparison, and bad for your mental health? And I think that those two things … You want to compete a little bit because if there was no competition, there’d be no reason anyone would want to try to be in the Olympics. The Olympics wouldn’t even be around, because people are trying to better themselves. But then I think we’re now trying to compete in every, single thing. Like, who’s the best fricking mother? And who’s the best-

Kimberly: 00:23:19 Totally.

Tammin Sursok: 00:23:20 It’s like, who cares? Who cares what you do with your children as long as … I mean, look. As long as you don’t spank. I don’t believe in spanking, I don’t believe in hitting. I don’t like when I see that, because that makes me nervous for the kid. I just don’t love that idea. But how you parent is your experience, and how you do it. Like, breastfeed. I couldn’t breastfeed for very long, and it was such a thing. And I was like, a 10-pound baby came out of my body. It doesn’t matter if I gave my kid formula. What does it matter to you? And now I’m going off on a completely different tangent, but I think competing in some way can be healthy. But comparison and competing in other ways can be very unhealthy, especially when it comes to mothering.

Kimberly: 00:24:11 I feel like as I’m hearing you speak about that, Tammin, I had this thought which is yes, competition can be healthy in a sense that we’re talking about athletes, or driving us to learn more, be our best, and research more, whatever it is. But I think it crosses the line into unhealthy, where it has to do with your sense of self-worth. Do you know what I mean?

Tammin Sursok: 00:24:32 Right.

Kimberly: 00:24:33 It’s like, I’m doing my best in this job. I’m the best red carpet host I can be. I didn’t get this job. It doesn’t mean you’re less than. It doesn’t mean you’re not a good host. It doesn’t really mean anything about you. I think it’s when it’s so personal, like you said, Tammin. Maybe they wanted someone taller, or someone that had a different accent.

Tammin Sursok: 00:24:50 What are you going to do?

Kimberly: 00:24:51 It really isn’t about our worth. And so if we put these things into this bucket of this is about how good I am or whatever, I think that’s really unhealthy. For me, if it’s competition and we’re creating things, it’s in a different bucket. I just try to put it in its own energetic field. It doesn’t have to do with my sense of self. It’s hard. It can be hard. But it shouldn’t be about our worth.

Roxy Manning: 00:25:16 Somebody said-

Tammin Sursok: 00:25:21 I’ve got some weird things and it’s like, this is my worth. What, to you, is like oh, this has to be … Whether it’s mothering, something, a physical appearance. Like, I like to have my hair to look good all the time. What is it that you feel like is your worth that you might put your worth in?

Roxy Manning: 00:25:40 For me, I think it’s being liked by people. I’m a people pleaser. I like to be liked by people. I don’t like confrontation, generally. I like to feel like I have a lot of friends, that people really like me. I think that drives me a lot. And if I feel like there’s conflict or if I feel like someone doesn’t like me, whether they do or not, it’s unsettling to me. And it makes you feel anxious and unhappy, and I feel like I can’t really focus on anything else unless I can figure out what that’s all about. Do you know what I mean?

Kimberly: 00:26:19 Do you try to change yourself or behavior to be liked by them? Or sometimes you’re like, well, they just don’t like me and let it-

Roxy Manning: 00:26:27 You know, I think the older I get, maybe the less I change. I mean, definitely when I was younger, I would probably do more of the changing. I think I still, on first glance when I first meet people, it’s about keeping it really surface and being that fun girl, and trying to capture people’s attention that way and just being that kind of a thing. I think likeability, yeah. I don’t think I change the core of who I am. Like, if it’s somebody I completely disagree with on a cellular level, then I really don’t give a shit if they like me or not, or if I’m so in disagreement with them. But I mean, surface, if it’s a group of people or whatever, I like being liked. To me, I might change a little bit, but I don’t think I change the core of who I am, if that makes sense. I don’t know.

Kimberly: 00:27:29 Yeah. I think that’s natural. To be liked is validation, it’s saying I’m good, I’m tough. And so that switch between putting less focus on outer validation and inner validation for me has really come through focusing on these cornerstones, my practices, the journaling, the meditation, because if we don’t spend time with ourselves, then we don’t really know ourselves, I feel like. That we don’t have that strong connection that when we go out into the world and we’re around other people, our sense of self can get really dinged around, I think. I think we need to focus-

Roxy Manning: 00:28:06 And listen.

Evolving over time and doing our best

Kimberly: 00:28:06 Yeah. You should focus all on food. We were talking about food. And I said, food was this. And if someone disagreed with my food philosophy, or someone was a big meat eater or something, I’d try to say no, but look at it this way, or defend my position. But then as time has gone on and I’ve moved beyond food. It’s part of it, but it’s like community, and emotional wellbeing, and spiritual growth, and the body. I just think that as we evolve over time, we realize that we’re all doing our best, and just to have more compassion for ourselves and each other. And I just try to see beyond. I just try to see connection more, I think, helps me with competition, with how I can feel connected to someone versus opposed to them.

Roxy Manning: 00:28:52 I think, too, becoming moms changes the dynamic a bit too, because you’re less time to think about a lot of these other things, right? Because you’re so focused on your kids. Especially when they’re young, because we all have young kids. It’s like, you’ve got to make sure their needs are met, and make sure they’re taken care of. And they’re so dependent on you that I feel like that … I know for me, that’s sort of taken the focus a little bit more off me personally.

Tammin Sursok: 00:29:20 Off yourself.

Roxy Manning: 00:29:20 Yeah. Because time is eaten up by what they’re doing and that kind of a thing. I don’t know if that’s good or bad, I just think that’s the reality, right?

Tammin Sursok: 00:29:31 I think a lot of mothers feel worse about themselves after they’ve had their first kid, that no one talks about. I had such a desire … I don’t have a desire as much after my second, but after the first I had such a strong desire to find a community where people could talk about the sense of failure, and loss of identity, and all these things that happen after you have a kid. Because no one talks about it, and everyone’s just, again, on social media, being perfect, breastfeeding while they’re working, and like, I got this. And I’m looking, and it’s just so unrealistic that I feel really sorry. I feel really, it’s amazing to have a baby. But I do feel sorry for the women, for a lot of us who have had babies who have no support, who have no community. We also are in America where, in Australia, where I’m from, my sister-in-law had a baby and there was a lactation specialist that comes to her house every day to teach her-

Roxy Manning: 00:30:28 What?

Tammin Sursok: 00:30:29 Yeah. For a period of time.

Roxy Manning: 00:30:31 [inaudible 00:30:31].

Tammin Sursok: 00:30:31 For a period of time. And she gets so … And then they have paid maternity leave, and it’s quite a long period of time. I’d like to say it’s six months. I don’t want to speak out of turn, but men can as well. There’s just so many different initiatives and programs and help, and it’s just a different way to bring a child into the world. And here the narrative is, well, you decided to have a baby, so suck it up. You’re the one. It’s your choice. And I’m an American citizen now, and I love … My kids are American, my husband’s American. I love America so much. But it’s that mentality of you’re alone in this, and it’s like America’s all about what can you do for me? And it’s all very one person. And I think we need to bring back that community, and the help, and the tribe, like you were talking about.

Tammin Sursok: 00:31:26 After my first kid, I felt very alone. Very like, who am I? Loss of identity. And I really tried to reach out because I didn’t have a good sense of self after I had my first kid. And the sleep deprivation, and am I breastfeeding right? But after the second, you’ve kind of muddled through the waters in a good way or a bad way with your first one, so you’re just less … I was a mess with my second, but I just didn’t really care as much. And now that I knew with my first I had such a hard time breastfeeding, I tried with the second and it worked better because I was less stressed. But I only made it to four months. And then the minute I wrote a post on my social I said, you know what? I’m not going to judge myself for this. I know others will. But I’m going to choose my mental health, and I’m going to choose the mental health of me, which will in turn help my own child. And the second baby was totally different, because I was able to accept and let go of that control.

Kimberly: 00:32:31 I realized in talking to you that you guys are girl moms. Between you both, you have three daughters, is that right?

Tammin Sursok: 00:32:38 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Roxy Manning: 00:32:38 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

What we want to teach our boys and girls in a world of beauty

Kimberly: 00:32:39 And I’m a boy mom because I have two sons. And just thinking about this conversation, and the comparison, just being in the world of beauty, all this stuff, what do you want to teach your daughters that maybe you weren’t taught?

Roxy Manning: 00:32:54 I think for me, my daughter is almost seven. She’ll be seven this summer. We started out while back, probably when she was just talking, like around two, we started doing affirmations.

Tammin Sursok: 00:33:09 Same.

Roxy Manning: 00:33:10 At night. Like, “I am strong. I am brave. I am smart. I am respected. I am loved.” And you’re saying all these affirmations, and sometimes we would say beautiful but we really didn’t focus on that as much. It was more like whatever was internal. And at the end, she says her name and she says, “I am [Bray 00:33:31].” And it’s this sort of big chant at the end. Which to me, that’s something that I definitely did not grow up with. I mean, as Tammin was saying about her family too, I had a great family growing up. But talking and communicating in that way just wasn’t that … It just wasn’t there like that. For me, I know … And after growing up, going through puberty, being a young woman, dealing with negative self-image, and I wouldn’t say that I had a full-blown eating disorder, but definitely disordered eating. I would not let myself eat, or starve, skip some meals, do that because I didn’t feel like I loved my body.

Roxy Manning: 00:34:12 And I think for me, what’s really important is really instilling that emotionally in her, really building up emotionally who she is and mentally who she is. So then in turn when she gets older, she won’t look at herself externally and go through those same things that I went through. I think for me, it’s really about building up her self-respect and her mental wellbeing, and also just to always make her feel safe and loved. That’s really important to me. I know Tammin also does affirmations, right?

Kimberly: 00:34:49 Is that right, Tammin? You do them too?

Tammin Sursok: 00:34:50 Yeah, no, we do affirmations. I think we go, “I’m strong and beautiful, I’m unique, I’m intelligent, I am me, I’m Phoenix the Firebird.” That’s what she says. But then now, I don’t even know why she says this at the end, she goes, “I love you so much. You’re my whole world. You’re everything to me.” And I told her to stop saying that not because I don’t think she loves me. I want her to say, I love you. But her having that affirmation, like I love you so much, you’re my whole world, I’m like, I want to be her whole world. Of course I do. But I don’t want her to feel trapped within that statement. I’m your whole world, you’re everything to me. She wants to say that every night, and I just don’t want to … She’s like, goes to a therapist at 30, she’s like, why did I keep saying that about my mom? And now I just can’t get away from her because I feel like I’ve been my whole life thought she was my whole world. I’m like, oh God, I’m raising her thinking about her therapy when she’s 30.

Tammin Sursok: 00:35:48 So, I don’t want her to say that. She’s been struggling with the word love lately, too. She’s like, “I think I love you guys. Because I don’t really know.” She’s having this whole, existential … Like, “I know what love is. I think I know what love is.” And I’m like, well, love just means you really care about someone. She’s like, “Well, I feel that.” And I’m just like to [Sean 00:36:06], my husband, I’m like, “Could she just f-ing say she loves me, okay?” Because I can’t deal with the fact that she’s like, “I think I love you.” I’m like, what the f is that? But she’s like, “I don’t know what it is.” And I’m like, just say it. Just say it.

Kimberly: 00:36:17 It’s quite unsettling to hear. I started meditating with my son. My older son just turned five. And we don’t do it every night, but if he’s in the mood. And we try to do it semi-regularly, just teaching him to breathe down into his body, teaching him what his third eye is, how you can focus your energy. And even though it’s erratic, I feel like I wasn’t taught to meditate. I wouldn’t have these tools for self-soothing myself. And I definitely went down this path of trying, relying on different things, and food, and eating disorders. I think it’s important … I say girl mom, boy mom, but all kids, just to have these tools that they can rely on. Then, you don’t need anybody else. It’s just within themselves they have these tools for feeling better and for feeling calm, or feeling centered. Affirmations are amazing. I didn’t even think about doing that with him, so I will start doing that.

Kimberly: 00:37:09 But it’s amazing as a parent now, and I didn’t know this when I became a parent. But I feel like it’s healed a lot of my childhood, in a weird way, because I’m almost parenting myself. I’m parenting my children, but I’m saying things I think I would have wanted to hear too, in an interesting way. There’s a lot of feeling that comes from that.

Roxy Manning: 00:37:29 You know, it’s really interesting as well that you’re speaking of meditation. Because Tammin and I, our kids go to the same school and they start meditating with them in pre-school. So, our kids were already used to meditating because that’s how they start their day. Morning Mindfulness, is what they call it. And the kids all sit in a circle and meditate. I know during the pandemic when we were all homeschooling during that time, I gave it to my daughter and said hey, why don’t you lead the meditation for us? Because it gave her some ownership of it. She was kind of the leader, and kind of gave her some control during the pandemic, where it kind of felt out of control, especially on Zoom school and everything. I would let her lead it. I mean again, I know we talked about this on our podcast. I’m not the best meditation person, even though I want to be and I would love to be. But even having just those couple … I mean, it wasn’t a long meditation. But just even those couple of minutes, I found, made her … It gave her something. You know?

Kimberly: 00:38:34 Love that. That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about beauty. Let’s switch over to this beauty discussion. And sometimes, I love to say things to you guys and I’m like, how does that land? When you’re talking about the uniqueness, I’m like, that can be a little bit abstract. When we talk about beauty from the inside out, listen, for me three out of my six book titles have the word beauty, so it’s something that I’ve really explored. And I felt like the other, where I grew up. I grew up in a pretty much 100% Caucasian town in Connecticut. And you guys know, Connecticut is very white. And I’m half Asian. I’m half Philippina. And I really stood out. So from the beginning, I felt self-conscious, and very insecure about my looks. And then you try to heal what doesn’t feel good, so then I started wanting to be good to my body, and that led to eating disorders, get skinnier and skinnier.

Our beauty journeys and how we look at beauty

Kimberly: 00:39:32 And I’ve just been on this whole journey. And then where I’ve landed now, I’m still in the process. But so much deeper, this kind of beauty that Yogananda and Rumi talk about, which really is the beauty of the soul. And it wasn’t til some years ago I started to really resonate with that, this idea that beauty from the inside out isn’t just eating to have great skin. Although, we can do that too. But it’s really about just being very loving and very connected, and very compassionate. But it’s a journey for me, this whole beauty conversation. Can you guys share about your beauty journey a bit, and how you look at beauty today?

Tammin Sursok: 00:40:13 I mean, I was 210 pounds when I was 15 years old, and then I lost the weight when I was 15, and then got on a TV show.

Kimberly: 00:40:20 Wow.

Tammin Sursok: 00:40:21 If that’s not a mind f … I thought that I went from a girl that was told that she wasn’t pretty, wasn’t beautiful, and then was on a TV show and told that she was. It’s like, my entire self-worth was based in how I looked for a very, very, very long time. And I still don’t feel good when I don’t think I look good, too. And that’s probably why … I wear glasses, and I used to wear contacts. And I feel like I wear glasses almost because if I don’t want to look at myself in the mirror, I can take my glasses off. I don’t know if that’s something I’ve really diagnosed with myself, but if I just want to disassociate from looking all the time in mirrors, because I can’t see very well from afar, I can take my glasses off. I can see you right now, but I can’t see past the window. Beauty was my entire meaning of who I was. Success and beauty was what gave me value.

Tammin Sursok: 00:41:22 Now, I’m getting older. I had two 10-pound babies. My body doesn’t look the same. Success is not … Comes in different waves for me. I can be on a TV show, then I don’t work for a year. Then I can be on something else, and then I don’t work for two. That’s how the business is. I’ve had to really open that box of, okay. You think you’re … For Roxy, she’s said that being liked was what gave her value. For me, it’s success and looks. And as you get older, that changes. I’ve really had to do a lot of work on that. And I’m not saying … I think it’s a lie to say oh, and I feel so much better. I don’t. This week, I haven’t done a lot of successful things, that dopamine rush. The auditions haven’t been coming in, or the bookings, or whatever. So then you go, well, am I good enough? Am I worthy enough? Am I enough?

Tammin Sursok: 00:42:17 And you start looking in the mirror and you start seeing crows feet. And I stopped using those filters on Instagram where they … You don’t know, really, sometimes, they’re doing it. But it changes your nose and your mouth. I don’t know if you’ve seen those. But everyone uses them now. Like, everyone. I don’t even see an influencer who doesn’t use them. Everyone looks good all the time because no one’s telling the truth. And that’s-

Kimberly: 00:42:43 I’m so out of it. I know some people look off, but is it like a Snapchat filter?

Tammin Sursok: 00:42:47 Oh, no. Sort of. But there’s so many of them. There’s hundreds and hundreds of them, and they can change you eye shape, and your ears, and your nose, and your mouth.

Kimberly: 00:42:54 Come on.

Tammin Sursok: 00:42:55 So, you start using them. And then you look in the mirror and you go, wait. I don’t look like that. What’s wrong with me? Again, long answer to a short question. The answer is yeah, I’m still really working through that. And I’m not there yet. I’d like to be. But what I can say is I’m not going to let my daughter go down that same route as I did. Not because my parents weren’t amazing. They were. But they didn’t understand a lot of what’s going on, and the conversations that we’re having. So, I’m going to start the conversation with Phoenix earlier, and talking about beauty and what that means. And we talk about fat, the word fat a lot. And we say, fat is just a thing. It’s not good. It’s not bad. There’s not an emotion to it. Fat is just a thing. It’s just a thing on someone’s body. Some people have more of it. Some people have less of it. But there’s no connotation that it’s good or bad.

Self-worth and what it’s based on

Kimberly: 00:43:50 I love that. And it reminds me a little bit, Tammin … Sorry, Roxy. One second. Reminds me with the pandemic and everything that was happening. People were experiencing skyrocketing levels of anxiety, and it was just this idea of if our safety and security doesn’t come from the places that we thought it did, the government, or just regular routine, going to the store. If that’s all been taken away, where does safety and security come from? Where do we get it? There’s just these questions we were pondering. And then again, for me, the answer is deeper inside. It’s not going to come from this outside stuff. It’s like a big question to sit with, if my self-worth isn’t based in my looks or my success, which goes up and down, what is my worth really based in?

Roxy Manning: 00:44:40 Exactly. That’s hard. But I think as women, we’re taught just from the earliest of ages that our self-worth, part of it is our looks. And it is our beauty, and to be a successful woman you need to be pretty, or you need to look a certain way. And I think for me growing up, I have kind of a similar story to you, Kimberly. I come from a multicultural house too. My father is Pakistani and my mom is Caucasian, so I always felt like the odd woman out. I didn’t feel like I was quite … I looked the same as my Pakistani friends, and I didn’t feel like I totally looked like my Caucasian friends. And I had different cultural things that I did. I went to different kinds of events with my family, and things like that. So, I never fully felt firmly rooted in one or the other. It was never like I felt totally accepted.

Roxy Manning: 00:45:38 I think for me, that was always a struggle, just straddling both cultures. And I think that played into my self-worth growing up. And even now. I mean, I would never say that I totally accept 100% the way I look, that I feel good about the way I look all the time. I mean, it’s an ongoing struggle. And especially in the business. In this business, so much of it is based on the way you look.

Kimberly: 00:46:07 Well, I mean you guys chose professions that are specifically playing into this, which is why this is such an interesting conversation. And so again, to me it’s always the solution, I think, can be found in the same system. And when I found the yogic path, and when I started to get really into the philosophy and really into it, I was surprised to learn, read some of these scriptures, and it talks about we’re fully worthy because we’re here. And that’s it. We’re just alive, we’re breathing, being, and so we’re fully complete and we’re fully worthy just as we are. That, and then our whole life, our whole journey back to that self-realization seems simple, but it’s so complicated. And we put so much on the surface, and then society feeds into that and reinforces that with social media and imagery and magazines and all this different stuff.

Kimberly: 00:47:01 But yeah, it’s crazy because some of the simple things in life are sometimes the hardest to wrap your head around. But that is the journey. Again, the yogic path, which is the path I’ve chosen, is really coming back to this idea that you don’t have to do anything to be enough.

Tammin Sursok: 00:47:18 And businesses feed … This is what I say to my husband. The world feeds off our insecurities.

Kimberly: 00:47:25 Of course, yes.

Tammin Sursok: 00:47:26 I mean, every make-up brand, every clothing brand, every hair-

Kimberly: 00:47:31 Product.

Tammin Sursok: 00:47:32 Product. Every eyebrow, every diet product, every food, it just all feeds off our insecurity. And there was that interesting thing that was going on with the Khloé Kardashian thing. Her grandma posted a picture of her just looking normal, and they freaked out. I don’t know if you heard about this. The Kardashians have tried to take it off every, single Internet source or whatever because I think it’s the only unfiltered picture out there.

Roxy Manning: 00:48:02 Altered, yeah.

Tammin Sursok: 00:48:02 And people go, well, what about the paparazzi? But the paparazzi pictures are filtered, right? This is what’s crazy. And then she came on and did a Live, showing her body. And I was like, oh my gosh. So much focus on the body. My main thought was, she was like, she wrote a whole … Which, I understand her saying. She’s like, I’ve been picked apart my whole life. So of course I feel like I have to look perfect, whatever. There’s these standards that are so high, that how can someone hold themselves to that standard. It’s just not realistic.

Tammin Sursok: 00:48:35 But I wanted her to say, I’m part of that. I am part of that problem. That is why … Not just her. But it’s that whole conversation of, she filters the pictures. Everything looks perfect. So, that is why we are all trying to get to this beauty standard that is not realistic, because of what everyone is posting and putting out there. It’s a bigger conversation. If we want to have self-love, yes, we have to work on it ourselves. But we need to start having … I thought, why. We see a Gap ad, there should be someone in a wheelchair. There’s a lot of bodies that are marginalized, that we don’t see a lot of that if we just saw more of it, it wouldn’t be … We wouldn’t have to filter a stretch mark out because you’d be seeing stretch marks all the time.

Tammin Sursok: 00:49:24 And my husband even said, imagine stretch marks were considered really hot and sexy. Everyone would want to have stretch marks. But we’ve said that they’re so disgusting. They’re so gross. They’re so this. What if they were hot? It’s like, we all need to change that conversation.

Kimberly: 00:49:41 You know, it’s ironic, too, is sometimes when someone is … It’s more rare, now. But let’s say there’s someone who’s genuinely completely confident. Think of someone who’s just really confident in themselves, and they feel really good about themselves. They are magnetic, and we’re drawn to them. It’s ironic, the picking apart and the self-focus that takes away from our power. And honestly, guys, I keep saying it’s like a different way of looking at things is going to be the solution. If you look at our cornerstones, which are food, body, emotions and spiritual, and I really start to focus more on emotions and the spiritual part, this is the formless part of us. This is where we’re not in form. It’s the feelings, the emotions, the spirit, the part. And I really feel like the more we spend time with that part of ourselves …

Kimberly: 00:50:28 And this has been my personal experience, and I always want to teach what’s helped me. We have form and we’re formless. We can agree there’s the mind the thoughts, if you believe in spirit, soul, whatever it is. That’s the formless part. But so much of our society focuses on the form. The form of our muscles, the form of our face. Like, food. It’s all form. And there’s certain cultures. I went backpacking for three years, and that really helped me create this philosophy. I was mostly in Africa and Asia. And I realized not every society is so form focused. There was amazing countries I spent a lot of time in in Africa, Zambia, Zimbabwe in particular, Rwanda. I love all of them, that part of Africa. Where it’s just different in different parts of the world. And so I have hope. I think it’s possible to shift past that. But I think like you said, Tammin, we’re the problem if we feed so much into other people’s images. It starts with us. But then it’s like, how do we break that cycle?

Roxy Manning: 00:51:27 Yeah. What is the saturation point? It just keeps on upping itself, right? It’s upping itself, it’s upping itself. It’s more filters, it’s more these kinds of experiences like with Khloé Kardashian. It’s like, when does it stop?

Tammin Sursok: 00:51:44 I feel like it’s starting to change, though. I really do. I feel like we’re having those conversations. Body positivity accounts are being taken down, and people are-

Roxy Manning: 00:51:52 They’re being taken down.

Tammin Sursok: 00:51:53 Oh, but now because it’s almost like it needed to happen to have the conversation. They’re showing their cellulite, or their rolls on their stomach, and it’s being reported and taken down. For example, I posted a picture when I was 15 years old, at 13 years old. I was in the bathtub. You couldn’t see anything. You saw my shoulders. I was overweight, and it got taken down. And then it said that I was against community guidelines. If I was 16 years old, skinny, and talked about the fact that I was too thin, I promise you that would not have been taken down.

Roxy Manning: 00:52:23 Or a bikini pic, or whatever. Yeah.

Tammin Sursok: 00:52:23 We are policing women’s bodies, and at some point that conversation needs to be had, and it’s being had. And I think it needs to happen. We need to see that these accounts are being taken down, and we need to be angry about it. And we need to say something and stand up, because I now definitely see more real bodies. I’m seeing we’re going against using filters. I don’t want to use those face-changing filters. I said something on my Instagram-

Kimberly: 00:52:50 I didn’t even know about this thing.

Tammin Sursok: 00:52:51 Oh my God. Everyone that you think that they look like that, don’t look like that. That’s the thing that’s so crazy.

Roxy Manning: 00:52:56 It’s crazy.

Tammin Sursok: 00:52:56 It’s like, we’re all going, oh my gosh, we wish we looked like that. They don’t look like that. I mean, we’re comparing ourselves with people that aren’t even real.

Roxy Manning: 00:53:04 It’s the whole face of … Yeah. No. It’s like the whole face is different. The nose is thinner, the eyes are bigger. The face is … I mean, it’s crazy.

Tammin Sursok: 00:53:11 Anyway.

Female sexual empowerment and where to find the balance

Kimberly: 00:53:11 I have an interesting question for you guys, being in this industry. And I had this conversation. I have my own ideas about this. I’m really interested in your ideas. This idea that’s going around on social media in particular, but also across society, about female sexual empowerment. And it’s this idea that there’s women saying that I should be able to dress and do whatever, post whatever, I’m empowered. And usually, it’s a lot of the time women that are very slender, and very highly sexualized images. But then it’s their right to … You know what I’m talking about?

Tammin Sursok: 00:53:46 Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Kimberly: 00:53:48 This whole conversation about I’m empowered, so I’m going to show what I want.

Roxy Manning: 00:53:50 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kimberly: 00:53:50 What do you guys think about that?

Tammin Sursok: 00:53:54 I mean, go.

Roxy Manning: 00:53:55 Go ahead.

Kimberly: 00:53:58 [inaudible 00:53:58].

Roxy Manning: 00:53:59 I don’t know. We’re both like … Go ahead, Tammin. You were going to say?

Kimberly: 00:54:01 Oh, me?

Roxy Manning: 00:54:02 Oh, no. Go ahead.

Tammin Sursok: 00:54:03 I think we have to be really careful about saying we’re all about choice and body positivity, but only for people that look like that. I had this epiphany recently, because EmRata, whatever her name is, she was posting. She was selling these pajamas, and she just had a baby and she was showing her stomach. And everyone … And she just had a baby. She’s three weeks. And everyone was like, how could she show that picture? She just had a baby. No one looks like that. And I’m like, whoa. Hold up. There’s a whole institution that is created for women to feel ashamed about every choice that they make, and everything that they do. So, if we start putting down people who look hot, then we should start putting down people … Well, what society says is hot. Then, we should start putting down the mom bods then too. If we really want to accept women for everything that they are …

Tammin Sursok: 00:55:06 And there was this TikTok video that went viral. They’re like, hey, I’m a mom, I’ve had three kids. And she looked so hot. And everyone just slammed her. And I was like, wait. When did we say if you look attractive or whatever then that’s not good, but if you don’t, then yay. Yay for that. We need to accept everything, and not shame people for everything that they … Not just people. Women, for everything that they do. Your boobs are too big. Your boobs are too small. You’re too skinny. You’re too fat. You’re too hot. You’re too ugly. You don’t have Botox. You should get Botox. It’s like, the conversation just needs to be accepting women for their own f-ing choices. You know, Roxy?

Kimberly: 00:55:49 I agree. Well, sorry Roxy. One quick thing.

Roxy Manning: 00:55:50 Go ahead, yeah.

Kimberly: 00:55:51 I agree. I think that it shouldn’t be body positivity is just for a certain kind of body. Where I fall in the conversation, because I’ve had this conversation with different people. People have asked me my opinion about this. Is I think that when we feel really good about ourselves, we may want to share a part of ourselves or whatever. It comes from this place where I feel empowered, and I’m going to share. And I don’t need anything from you. I’m just sharing it. But if it comes from a place, it may be under the guise of empowerment where someone’s worth may be in their looks, and they’re just putting it out. But there’s this neediness around it. They’re still looking for the validation. Is that really empowerment? Whatever the shape of their body, right?

Kimberly: 00:56:35 I think it’s not a black or white issue. It’s very individual to each person and their intention, I think, and what energy they’re bringing to it. It can be any body type, but I think it goes back to feeling more that you’re a whole person. Your body isn’t your whole identity, no matter what. But if you feel good and you want to share whatever you’re sharing, great. As long as your whole worth isn’t tied up in that.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:03 Yeah. It’s interesting that you-

Kimberly: 00:57:05 You can feel when someone’s … Where they’re coming from.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:08 Definitely. No, it’s interesting you were saying that, because I was kind of thinking the same thing. I was like, yes, 100%, people should be able to show whatever they want to show. If it’s making them feel great, then great. But what is their intent? What are they trying to communicate out to the world? Hopefully, it’s something to make people feel better, make them feel empowered, put some positivity out in the world. If it’s something maybe where it’s coming from not such a good place, maybe it’s not a good idea to put it out there. But I mean, to each his own, right? I mean, I’m not the police. I’m not trying to tell people what to put and not put out there. People can put out there whatever they want. But I think for me, I think as long as it comes from a good place, where hopefully you’re trying to help people, then I think that’s great. Putting positivity out in the world is never a bad thing. Maybe as long as it’s on that journey of positivity, then that’s great.

Tammin Sursok: 00:58:11 I think we have to be careful about saying … Not we, but … As a society, we’re all about choice. But only the choice that I like. And I think that that’s the bigger conversation to have. If a person’s putting it out because they feel great about themselves, great. If they’re putting it out because they’re so insecure, that’s nothing to do with me. And I can choose to not look at it. I don’t follow a lot of accounts. I’ve muted a lot because I also don’t want to offend people. But I have a choice. My choice is to not look at those accounts. And wherever they’re coming from is … They lie with themselves, at the end of the day. They look at themselves in the mirror at the end of the day. And if they hate themselves, I feel terrible for them, but I can’t change that. I can’t do it. And it’s not my job to go and comment and go, hey, I think what you’re doing is wrong. Unless it is hurtful to something.

Kimberly: 00:59:09 Sure. Others.

Tammin Sursok: 00:59:10 Like, if someone’s doing a you should starve yourself and be skinny, I probably wouldn’t say something but I think that’s damaging to a lot of young girls. But if it’s not damaging, then I would just say, we got to let people choose their own choices, and we can choose what we want to do about it.

Roxy Manning: 00:59:30 You know what? You bring up a good point, actually, Tammin, is that we have the power … And this goes back to our power to not look at those pages we choose not to look at.

Tammin Sursok: 00:59:40 Yeah. That’s our boundary.

Roxy Manning: 00:59:41 Yeah. That’s our boundary. We can say, you know what? I’m not going to follow that account, or I’m not going to look at that account. And I think that that is also very healthy too, that we can choose and do that.

Kimberly: 00:59:50 I think that’s not just healthy, I think that’s crucial. It’s monitoring the energy and the information that’s coming into our phones, into our personal space. And I would just hope, because I think everybody knows where they’re coming from deep down, to your point, Tammin. Everybody is doing their best. We’re all struggling along. But I would just hope that for any woman, any human … One of my goals in my life work is to get people to see that they’re more than their body. They’re more than their looks. And so it makes me sad if someone did put their whole self-worth into being hot and having this body, to the point where then she felt like she had to start doing these filters you guys are talking about.

Tammin Sursok: 01:00:30 Oh, now you’re going to know. You’ll see it.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:33 Yeah, you’ll see it.

Tammin Sursok: 01:00:34 My goodness.

Kimberly: 01:00:35 I feel so naïve, because I don’t really watch stuff. We don’t have a TV. I’m a big reader. I just haven’t been drawn to … Despite working in Hollywood, movies and shows, I just … People are drawn to different things. I’m very into reading. I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I don’t get some of this stuff.

Tammin Sursok: 01:00:57 That’s wonderful, believe me.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:58 It is.

Tammin Sursok: 01:01:00 You’re not missing nothing.

Roxy Manning: 01:01:02 You’re probably saving your mental wellbeing and emotional wellbeing in the process.

The ladies share their personal message and hope for all women and people everywhere

Kimberly: 01:01:08 But yeah, I just … One message. I think it’d be beautiful just to close with just a message you would hope for all women and all people everywhere. I just want everyone to know that they are this whole being, and their appearance. It’s just one little part, and it’s not who they really are. They are unique and beautiful as they are.

Roxy Manning: 01:01:25 You know what I would add on to something to that too, and it’s something very simple. But it’s something that’s really stuck with me. It’s so basic, but I didn’t realize it until later in life. And that’s just, be you. I mean, it sounds very cliché and very easier said than done, but if I really start taking that into heart and trying to realign myself, just be me. If that’s me on a good day, if that’s me on a bad day. Whatever me is, you know?

Kimberly: 01:01:54 Be yourself. I love that. There’s so much power in simplicity. I love that. Thank you, Roxy.

Roxy Manning: 01:02:01 Sure.

Kimberly: 01:02:02 Closing thought from you, my love?

Tammin Sursok: 01:02:04 Oh my goodness. I’m like, so many. Trying for it to be a positive one. No, there’s this interesting idea that when you compare yourself, it’s like drinking the poison that you’ve meant for someone else but you drink it yourself. And I’ve always had that, whenever I compare, I go, you’re trying to hurt that person but you’re not. You’re just hurting yourself. By putting the person down, or picking them-

Kimberly: 01:02:35 Judging them.

Tammin Sursok: 01:02:35 Judging them. Talking behind their back. They don’t even know, so the only person that’s hurting is you. And so accepting people and loving them, and even whoever this person we don’t know is who puts herself out about her body, maybe she’s had so many issues about feeling good physically and that’s her way.

Kimberly: 01:02:59 Totally.

Tammin Sursok: 01:03:00 It’s just empathy, I think. I think empathy‘s really hard, and I don’t do it enough. But I try to put myself in what could she be going through? And then just leaning in to acceptance and love and grace, which I again, have had such a crappy week that I have done all the opposite. Not a crappy week. Nothing bad’s happened, but I haven’t been good to myself.

Kimberly: 01:03:23 Yeah. Tough week.

Tammin Sursok: 01:03:26 I think if I can practice that a little more, then I can probably practice it for other people too.

Kimberly: 01:03:31 That’s beautiful. It’s so true. That acceptance is strong, and hard to miss it. So, thank you guys so much.

Tammin Sursok: 01:03:39 Thank you.

Roxy Manning: 01:03:39 Thank you.

Tammin Sursok: 01:03:40 I owe my husband a couple of hours. I hear him washing things louder and louder and louder. I’m like, I think that’s a sign that I’m done.

Kimberly: 01:03:49 Having a girl time, but I really appreciate you ladies so much.

Roxy Manning: 01:03:54 Thank you.

Tammin Sursok: 01:03:54 Thank you.

Kimberly: 01:03:55 And we’ll link in the show notes to all the places where people can find you, but you guys maybe quickly just say where we can find out more about you guys.

Tammin Sursok: 01:04:03 Yes.

Roxy Manning: 01:04:04 Yes. We are the Women On Top. We have a podcast. We have new episodes every Wednesday. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever. And our Instagram handle is WomenOnTop.

Tammin Sursok: 01:04:19 It’s WomenOnTopOfficial on Instagram. Oh, wait. And when Roxy was saying the podcast, our cover is Roxy drinking wine and it says, family is sacred and I’m breastfeeding, on the cover. So, you can’t really miss us. If you see a crazy, a baby breastfeeding, she’s drinking, family is sacred. That’s our podcast, if you’re going to go listen to it.

Kimberly: 01:04:42 Would love it.

Tammin Sursok: 01:04:43 And it’s WomenOnTopOfficial on Instagram.

Roxy Manning: 01:04:44 Yes. And WomenOnTop podcast on Facebook.

Tammin Sursok: 01:04:48 And my handle is TamminSursok@. T-A-M-M-I-N-S-U-R-S-O-K. And I have a blog called Bottle … Well, blog, website, community, called Bottle and Heels.

Roxy Manning: 01:04:59 And mine is @RedCarpetRoxy, with a Y. And my blog is RedCarpetRoxy.com.

Tammin Sursok: 01:05:07 Oh, and last shameless plug, since we’re doing this. On Amazon, I have a movie I wrote with my husband, called Braking for Whales, with Tom Felton. He was in the Harry Potter, Wendy McLendon-Covey from The Goldbergs, David Koechner is in it. We co-wrote it, my husband directed it, and I’m the lead in it. It’s on Amazon right now. It’s called Braking for Whales. Braking for Whales.

Kimberly: 01:05:27 Oh my God, congratulations.

Tammin Sursok: 01:05:28 Yes. We almost killed each other over it, but peace and love.

Kimberly: 01:05:30 That’s incredible. Congratulations. You beauties are just light, and so it’s such an honor to speak to both of you. I love your energy. Thank you so much.

Tammin Sursok: 01:05:40 Well, thank you so much for having us.

Roxy Manning: 01:05:41 Thank you. And we loved having you on our podcast too, Kimberly. So, thank you.

Kimberly: 01:05:44 Yeah. So, go over there, guys.