The Dark Night of the Soul and How To Get Past It with Gary Jansen [Episode #657]

This week’s topic is: The Dark Night of the Soul and How To Get Past It with Gary Jansen

I am so excited to have my very special guest, Gary Jansen, an award-winning author and a Director at Loyola Press in Chicago. He is also Deepak Chopra’s long-time editor at Penguin Random House and worked with Deepak and Kimberly on their New York Times bestseller Radical Beauty. Listen in as Gary shares how the ego has a purpose, why developing a sense of awareness is critical in working through the darkness, and daily Microshifts you can take to get past self-comparison, and so much more!

[BULLETS]

• We discuss our battles with self-doubt and how the mind plays a huge role…
• The ego and how it serves a purpose…
• Identifying with outward experiences versus identifying with the True Self…
• Breathing and being present to move through difficult shifts…
• Tips on how music and its vibration is a source for healing…
• Why developing a sense of awareness is critical in working through the darkness…
• Microshifts for getting past self-comparison…

[FEATURED GUESTS]

About Gary Jansen 

Gary Jansen is a former executive editor at Penguin Random House in New York City where he has edited and published books by New York Times bestselling authors Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis, Deepak Chopra, Kimberly Snyder and Gabrielle Bernstein. He is the author of the bestselling memoir Holy Ghosts; The 15-Minute Prayer Solution; and Station to Station. His latest book is MicroShifts: Transforming Your Life One Step at a Time. He is currently the Director of New Acquisitions at Loyola Press in Chicago.

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Gary Jansen’s Interview

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Other Podcasts you may enjoy!:

• Getting Past the Root Cause of Not Feeling Good Enough
• Practical Tips for Gaining Peace in Your Life
• How Modern Science and Ancient Wisdom Can Help Unlock the Human Voice with Maryn Azoff
• How An At-Risk Youth Transcended and Created a Great Life with MC Yogi

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Transcript:

Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Kimberly: 00:01 Hi, loves and welcome back to our Monday interview podcast. I am so excited for our very special guest today. Gary Jansen, who is an amazing award-winning author. He’s an editor right now. He’s the director at Loyola press in Chicago. He was formerly at penguin random house in New York city. He has been Deepak Chopra as long term editor, which is how I met Gary when we worked together on radical beauty. And he is also one of my dearest soul friends. Gary is so wise. And today we talk about surviving a dark night of the soul, these periods of intense self-doubt or doubt in general. And Gary has been with me through some, getting past some of these own periods in my own life. And today we talk about some really practical tips for getting through these dark moments that can feel really oppressive and really tough.

Fan of the Week

Kimberly: 00:56 And so our intention with today’s podcast is to leave you with some really tangible tools that will help you through these periods that unfortunately, or fortunately hit all of us, you know, they’re not fun, but we definitely grow from them and we go stronger and stronger. So we’re here to support and really excited to get into our show today. But before we do let’s, please give a shout out to our fan of the week. Her name is AlyssaKueppers and she writes, it just feels good. There aren’t many podcasts that I can listen to every single episode without skipping over some every time I see a new episode title for this podcast, my reaction is yes, so relatable and necessary. Alyssa, thank you. My love, your review brought me joy. It definitely smiled. It feels good to me to hear that feedback. So thank you so much.

Please leave a review on iTunes

Kimberly: 01:50 My love for being part of our community. I’m just so grateful that we’re connected past time and space. I don’t even know what city you live in, but thank you so much and look forward to connecting more and your chance. My love to be shouted out as the fan of the week. Please just take a moment out of your day to leave us a review on iTunes. It’s such a great way to support the show. Please also be sure to share the show an episode or just a show in general, with someone that you think would benefit a loved one, a coworker, and finally be sure to subscribe, arrive to our show. And that way you don’t miss out on any of these interview podcasts or Thursday, Q and a shows, and it just keeps this source of inspiration flowing in your life, which is a really great thing to do for yourself.

Kimberly: 02:41 And I will also mention at the top of our show that if you are not yet to wear my new book, you are more than you think you are, is out. Now you can pick it up. Wherever books are sold. This is my full playbook for living your best life, with confidence and vitality and abundance and more peace. And it’s the tools and practices that have really helped me. So I’m so excited to share them with you. It’s a very practical book. It’s more of like a work, a workbook featuring teachings that are so practical for today as well from Paramahansa Yogananda. So check it out now. And yeah, that’s my intro. Let’s get into our interview today with the incredible inspiring wise, Gary Jansen. 

Interview with Gary Jansen

Kimberly: 00:08 My God, Gary. It’s so good to talk to you and to see you. Thank you for coming back on the podcast. One

Gary: 00:13 Of my, oh, it’s always great to see you, Kimberly, how you doing?

Kimberly: 00:15 I feel like it’s, it’s like, it’s, um, I love to share you Gar, because you are, you, you know, such a close friend, such a soul friend, and you’ve been such a great source of comfort for me over these past few weeks, I’ve been sharing a little bit about some of the, the big self-doubt that I’ve been going through in pockets. And I think it’s great to, to share our journeys because I think sometimes people, you know, look at other people and they think, oh, you know, they don’t struggle with food anymore. They don’t struggle with self-doubt and it’s not true. We all come in and out, even when we meditate, even when we are on the spiritual journey, the self doubt kicks in, doesn’t it?

Gary: 00:53 Oh, absolutely. Every day, you know, I mean, I feel like it’s an everyday battle,

Kimberly: 00:58 So it’s an everyday battle, you know, it’s, I love the, I love the, the, the, the tur, you know, when we talk about battle and we talk about being the, the warrior, um, and I reread the, the Gita over the holidays, Gary, you know, so much of this allegory about, you know, in one way, there’s these Chara tears in the Vaga Vata, they talk about the horses, they talk about this, you know, the, the strategy, but really it’s an allegory for the battle we’re going through every, every day, the battle of the ego and the mind and the true self, the, the part of us that is stable. And it’s, it can be, it can feel really, you know, hard gear in, in day to day life, as we all know.

We discuss our battles with self-doubt and how the mind plays a huge role in this

Gary: 01:36 Yeah. I mean, and you bring up, I mean, I’m just become more and more convinced that the majority of our battles are just with the mind, you know, we can have physical, you know, ailments the problems with our physical body, but wow. It is the mind that can be, it can be a great ally. It can also be a fierce, you know, enemy sometimes and, you know, trying to acclimate and to be, you know, to find kind of, um, uh, a peaceful resolution sometimes with the mind can be really, really difficult. Um, but I really, I find that that’s the biggest key, you know, it’s really, it’s, uh, it’s a lot of times it’s a, self-doubt, it’s the it’s, you know, you’ve talked a lot about this recently. It’s about the fear that kind of pervade, you know, our minds and at the end of the day, if you’re to take all your thoughts outta your head, just for a little while, I mean, how do you feel?

Gary: 02:30 You feel really good, right? If you can actually clear your mind for a little bit, you feel really good. Yeah. And, uh, even if you’re having, you know, you know, cuz you can experience pain and I’ve felt this too, like you experience pain, but then your mind automatically attaches something to it. Maybe like this is never gonna go away. So you already have the pain and you’re making things worse by, you know, predicting into the future that this is never gonna go away. Or, you know, just focusing on when is it gonna go away? When is this pain gonna go away? When is this gonna go away? And the more that our minds kind of play with our, you know, physical ailments or the things that we suffer physically, it, it just, it makes a bad situation, even worse. So learning to be able to control the mind as you know, you know, is, is key.

Kimberly: 03:16 Yeah. You know, I’d like to go through Gar in a moment, like some of the, some of the ways to pull out of that, self-doubt out of the dark night of the soul. Some things that I did recently, something that you do Gar, but before we go into that, let’s um, you know, sometimes we, we don’t know what it is and I, you know, I wanna go into the self-doubt a little bit more, um, as like I said, it’s, it’s, it’s wild. Like we think we’re doing all this work and then it can come at any moment. We get triggered, we see something on social media or in my case, um, what happened was, it was weird. Like I just got back from New York, gave it a couple phase, I’d come back from New York, everything was going well. And then I just, I don’t know.

Kimberly: 03:56 I felt vulnerable. Maybe being seen I’d been TV a couple times and it just felt this, um, you know, like this, like the, the crushing, like, I mean to, I go to the questioning, am I, am I crazy? Like, you know, people know what I’m writing about? Like why did I do this? And so right. It feels like this darkness and what I’ve come to feel there, or, you know, to think is darkness, isn’t necess really a bad thing. Darkness is an absence of light, right. So it’s like, oh, like it was, it was calling in this, this darkness, these, these beliefs that are still in me, like you’re, you’re worthless. You don’t deserve to be seen and heard. Right. So then I was like, I’m being seen and heard it. It really triggered a lot. So in a way we can say these ego at, to acts are, are bringing up darkness to be healed perhaps. Right?

The ego and how it serves a purpose

Gary: 04:45 Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of times we will, you know, we’ll slap around the ego a lot and we’ll, we’ll get angry at it and we’ll pick on it and we’ll say, well, this is just ego, but the ego serves a purpose. Right. And the ego oftentimes kind of, it is good because it can, when it’s in check, you know, it, it, it, it calls into question. Maybe some of the things that you have wrong, right. Or maybe some of the things that maybe that you’re relying too much upon. Yes, totally. And, and you need a little bit of a course correction. Right. You need to be, you know, and the ego is there, you know, the ego can get outta control. It can be like a drunken, like a friend at a part. Right. All of a sudden it just goes running off with the mouth and just, it has no, um, inhibitions, but the ego I think is meant to kind of correct us, you know, when, when things are going wrong.

Gary: 05:33 And I think when you talk about the dark night of the soul, you’re really, you know, it’s a deeply spiritual moment. Yes. Because all of your supports are taken away. Right. When you you’re, when you’re experiencing this, all the stuff that you thought was right. Is gone, not necessarily gone, but you feel like it’s gone. Oh yeah. Right. Everything that you were putting, all your attention into all your, you know, everything you were investing in, all of a sudden gets pulled away from you and you are left with yourself and you feel abandoned. Right. You feel abandoned by yourself. And, and I think every, like anybody who goes through like a dark night of the soul is just feels a sense of abandonment. Right? Yes. And it feels like, oh my God, you know, was, I, you know, like you were saying before, am I crazy? You know, I, I, I thought things were going this way. And then all of a sudden they’re not, you know, exactly. And, and that, and that is that’s suffering, right? Yeah. When, when you are exposed, you are, you are experiencing some tremendous suffering and that, and, and it’s really difficult. But I do think that there’s hope because I think it’s a, it’s a way of, of there is there is hope on the other side of that suffering.

Kimberly: 06:43 Yes. So for the way I, the way I experience it, and maybe you do too Garrett, and maybe, you know, you guys listening to this, there’s the daily doubt that comes in. That’s, you know, we can work with a bit like something, like I said, it triggers us, or an email always says, or someone says something and that’s, you know, we’ll talk about some tools in a moment for that. But then there’s these deep periods where, you know, like I went through like, oh, like the, like a deeper doubt where I went, you know, I’m, I’m go, I go into my heart. Like, I, I feel like I was being guided by intuition. And I wrote this book. I wanted to share all these things. And it’s a departure for me away from just, you know, food and, and wellness per se. So then I was, you know, leading into the darkness, like, okay, I’m doing this different kind of book and this different thing, but then, you know, it, it felt so debilitating when that kind of doubt comes in.

Kimberly: 07:36 So I think there’s periods, whether, you know, we were thinking about leaving a relationship or getting into a relationship or job, or these bigger periods where that dark night of the soul comes, crashing down. And you know what I feel, Garrett, it’s almost like, um, and I don’t usually go through this, but it was lasted about 48 hours. For me, it was hard to like, you know, breathe, to be motivated, to get out of bed. And I was reading something or a little video, I think that Egar Toley wrote. And he was saying, you know, if you’re thinking about, you know, this really deep period of like almost dying, it’s because your ego is experiencing this sort of death, this, this idea of what you thought was real is dying. And it feels really painful.

Gary: 08:17 And that, yeah. You know, I mean, it is, I mean, your supports, you taken away from you. Right. And all of a sudden you collapse, you know? Yeah.

Kimberly: 08:24 Like what’s real anymore, right.

Gary: 08:26 Yeah. What’s real anymore. And, you know, and then it, it, you know, what it does is that it removes any reliance on the self. Right. And that’s why it’s a very like spiritual experience because yes, you’re like, wait a minute, I kind of created this. I was following this and now I’m completely exposed. And now I’m, I feel completely vulnerable. I feel terrible. And, and I think at those moments, those are like crossroad moments where it’s like, I can go this way and go that way. And, um, and this way may lead to even deeper, darker depression, or there’s another way, which is kind of like, all right, I’m gonna surrender to this right now and just allow faith to kind of carry me through. And that can be really difficult. Right. Because the, um, because you may think your faith is strong until it’s tested.

Gary: 09:19 At least for me, I can just speak for myself. Right. So I’ll just say, Hey, you know what, oh, yeah, I’m a real faith filled guy. You know, I’m a spiritual guy and all that stuff until I’m tested. Right. And then I crumble like house cards. Right. And then I realize, oh, wait a minute. That faith that I thought I had really isn’t that strong. Um, but when you’re exposed like that, when you’re experiencing what you experienced over the last couple of days, or, you know, earlier this week, or, or, you know, you can’t rely on yourself, you need something greater, right.

Kimberly: 09:47 You need something greater,

Gary: 09:48 You need something greater to kind of like pull you through. And, and that’s where kind of faith comes into it, you know? And it really is, you know, cuz you’re experiencing a sense of loss.

Kimberly: 09:58 Yeah.

Gary: 09:59 And I think we all feel that right. And you can feel it in a relationship. You could feel it, you know, if someone, if someone passes away that you’re very close to, um, you could feel it when you lose a job or you change jobs and you, you know, you move into a new job and you’re like, oh wait a minute. Maybe I like my other job better. And, but there’s this sense of loss that you experience. And I think a lot of us experience that on a day to day basis and sometimes they’re small losses, but ultimately, you know, it it’s, it’s this, it’s this sense of like we’re losing a piece of ourselves and we’re losing that thing that we thought made us strong or made us whatever, beautiful, handsome, whatever it is. And uh, and then it’s kind of this stripping away that allows, which is painful, but at the same time, you’re getting to the true self, which is what your book is all about. Right? Yeah. Your book is all about how do we, you know, how do we understand what the true self is? And part of that is by removing the stuff that obscures who you really are.

Kimberly: 10:57 Exactly. And so I do, you know, go going back to the darkness for a second, you know, a couple years, Garrett. Um, I, I, I didn’t even, um, you know, it, it keeps getting deeper and deeper, the understanding. So even, you know, I think about myself five years ago or, you know, 10 years ago. And, and if something came up that didn’t feel good, I would find a way to kind of get away from it. Okay. Let’s take this action step, you know, or let’s, I don’t know, distract or run away or hide. And then I think when I went through my rock bottom four years ago, and you were there for me too Gar when my mom passed away and then I became a single mom and I moved out, there was so much darkness. And I think it was the first time, like I couldn’t run away. And I remember there was this period where I’d just sit in the closet every night and cry. And I didn’t, I couldn’t, I didn’t feel like I could move forward yet, but there’s something about sitting in it and becoming friends with the uncomfortability because in a way then it’s like, what do we do? We just, we keep breathing and somehow get through it.

Gary: 12:02 Yeah. And I think the thing is, I mean, look, part of, part of the way you get through it is through your own tenacity. Right? You have to like keep going. And, and I think, but the other part of it is that there is, you know, you know, me, there’s a great, you know, you have a soul and that soul is infinite and that’s, and if that soul is infinite, then it’s connected to the, the infinite, whatever you wanna define that infinite as. Right. And so we’re part of this infinity, you know, Deepak talks about, you know, we have infinite potential, we have infinite potential because we ourselves are in our essence, our infinite, except it it’s obscured, you know, most of the time. Yeah. Um, and, and we don’t really, you know, it’s just, um, you know, it was, I was in a discussion with, um, a group of people early this week and they were talking about, there’s a scene in the Bible where Jesus walks on water.

Gary: 12:50 Right. And he calls and, and Peter sees him, who’s one of his friends, one of his apostle and, you know, Peter Yos out, Hey, command me, will walk on the water too. And Jesus is like, go ahead, go for it. Right. And he steps out of the boat and he starts walking on water, Peter. Right, right, right. And then he gets scared and yeah. You know, drops right down into the water and Jesus has to pick him up and, and, and say, oh, you of you of such little faith. Why do you, why did you doubt? Why did you doubt? Right. And, and I think so, whatever your religious beliefs in, you could be an atheist doesn’t really matter. You could, you could be a Christian. It, it really doesn’t matter what faith based, uh, you know, or if you have no faith, it doesn’t really matter. But this idea of doubt, why do you doubt and why, you know, and I’ll yeah.

Kimberly: 13:38 Why do we doubt ourselves? Yeah.

Gary: 13:39 Yeah. Why do you doubt yourself? Be, you know, I mean, why, I mean, why, why doubt yourself? You’ve been, you’ve been through so much, you’ve conquered, uh, so much in your life and you’ve done so much good for people. Why do you doubt?

Kimberly: 13:55 I mean, I think, yeah, it’s a funny thing. Self doubt. Right. I think even though we have these outward things that people can see and like, oh, look at what I’ve done. Like, oh, what I’ve written, it doesn’t change the wounds on the inside. Right. So I think, I doubt, I think we’ve all been through a lot in our Chi childhood and I know our parents do our best and I, you know, my parents certainly did their best, but I think there was this level of, you know, hustle because we had to, you know, there was a, um, you know, a little bit of financial strain going on about my parents were working. So what I’ve come to realize is there was a lot of neglect in my childhood. And so it was this like, then I started hustling to try to show, to be like, Hey, I’m, I’m worthy of being here and breathing and being alive and being seen.

Kimberly: 14:42 So, but there, I can feel that like, you know, that inner child, that, that frantic energy of feeling abandoned and feeling scared. And so I, when change happens, like writing a new book and a new topic or whatever it is, it brings in that like I’m alone and that scariness, um, you know, but then I, I wonder in a bigger level too Gar, like self-doubt like when people look at someone has more followers on TikTok or Instagram or whatever it is, why do you think that makes people doubt? It’s because we’re so used to seeing the outside stuff versus feeling the worse on the inside, I guess, because numbers, the number on the scale, the number of followers or whatever it is out here, um, you know, it just kind of, um, backs up our story maybe because we can see it and it matches the doubt on the side. What

Identifying with outward experiences versus identifying with the True Self

Gary: 15:33 Are you saying? Yeah. You know, I, I think, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of the problems that we have, or a lot of like the, the things that you’re, you’re talking about and I experience as well is because we identify like you were even saying, you know, I identified with this kind of hurt inside. Yeah. I mean, we do. And I think that’s why that’s why we suffer. But if there’s a true self inside, why are we not identifying with the true self? Right. And so what, why do we choose to identify with, you know, these, these things that essentially have happened in the past. And so, you know, you are definitely a product of, of, you know, you are here where you are, are right now, because you’re a product of your decisions and, and, and not only your decisions, but the time that you’re growing up.

Gary: 16:19 I mean, we can’t, you know, we can’t decide when we’re gonna grow up in history and then what the EC economics are gonna be and all of that stuff. So it’s a culmination of external factors and internal factors, but that’s why, you know, Egar will come back and just say, it’s the power of now it’s the, of right now, because as much as we have those memories inside us, and I think memory can be a really good thing if we over-identify with, you know, hurts in the past and those memories, then what it does is that it, it shifts the focus away from the fact that, you know, that we are something greater. And then I think that’s always the trick, right? It’s like, how do you balance that? And how do you even acknowledge, you know, if you’ve been put down, you know, or if you’ve experienced really bad hardships, it’s really hard to believe that you’re something better right. Than, than, than your hurts, and then your pains. And I think that’s, you know, that’s really difficult. And the one thing I just also wanted to add is that, you know, I’m a publisher and an editor and

Kimberly: 17:11 An amazing writer.

Gary: 17:13 Thank you. Thank you. And, uh,

Kimberly: 17:15 A award winning writer, Gary’s very humble.

Gary: 17:19 And, um, you know, so I published 300 books over the years. Wow. So it worked, you know, you know, I think if you culminate them, put them all together, you know, over the last, like 12 years, it’s probably somewhere close to 300 books. And I would say, you know, and you and I got to work on three together, which was so, you know, amazing. Um, but the, but I think one of the things I noticed with a lot of authors is that once a book is published, it’s like having a baby. It is, it’s, it there’s postpartum. You know, there’s postpartum that authors, whether you’re male or female, it happens to them. And so, you know, you’ve worked on something it’s been gestating inside. You, you know, there was conception at one point where all of a sudden you thought, oh, this is a great idea. And then it develops and there’s gestation. And sometimes it’s nine months. Sometimes it’s a year, you know? Yeah. A lot of times we sign contracts and it’s like, okay, a year from now we need a manuscript. So it’s very similar to

Kimberly: 18:17 Very similar in that anyways,

Gary: 18:19 To, to, um, conceiving and carrying a baby. And then all of a sudden, you know, so there’s a lot of attention going into it. And then you have the book, you have the baby and, and, and one hormonally, right. You’re going through hormonal changes, uh, after birth. And then, but then, you know, all of that attention that you had put on the baby and on the preparation is gone, and now you have to deal with the reality of the thing that you’ve gave birth to. Yeah. And, and that’s a very, very different experience and it can be very, very painful for people. And so there is a, um, so there’s some similarities between, you know, any kind of creative process, not just, you know, it’s an album, you know, I’ve talked to musicians, too, same thing, you know, it could be putting out, you know, new tracks or a CD, um, or a work of art they’ve been working on for, you know, a couple of years. And it goes out and there’s this sense of great relief on the day it’s released. And then all of a sudden, there’s this kind of,

Kimberly: 19:15 Yeah,

Gary: 19:16 You get the shakes, right. And you start. And because now it’s out there, you know, and now you gotta take care of it. You know, now you have to, you know, this is part of, you has to take care of it. And, and then, but that all of that anticipation and all that of preparation is gone and now you’re, you’re living in a new reality. And so I think a lot of people can get depressed, you know, and can get, can experiences the shift in, in, um, you know, in their emotions. And so I think it’s really, it’s common. And I think I even said to you, you know, you did, I’d be, I’d be like, I’d be surprised if you weren’t like a little sad, you know, because these are big moments.

Kimberly: 19:52 And in, in daily life, I, you know, I think all the ways that this comes out, right, not everybody’s gonna write a book, but we, you know, maybe you get that job that you are so excited about. Right. And then you’re like, oh, I’m in it. And people can see me, and then I’m gonna be judged. And my performance, or, um, my friend came over the other, uh, night, a couple nights ago and she had gone through a divorce and then she met this new guy and she was so excited and we were so excited for her, but then I saw her the other night and she’s like, the honeymoon period’s over, you know, like he kind of stayed with her house for six weeks. And so then there was this like, uh, like that, that doubt started to kick in. So I’m think in so many ways, Kara, like it’s like change and it brings up the, you know, the past.

Breathing and being present to move through difficult shifts

Kimberly: 20:35 So I get, you know, what you were saying before, I guess the ultimate antidote in a way is find using these tools and the ones I talk about in the book. Um, and the, you know, the tools that you talk about, what my favorite book of yours is Microshifts, which I think is very approachable because we don’t have to make a big overhaul, but these little shifts and these little tools to keep really coming back to the present, because the present isn’t where the pain lives, like the memories, the reason the doubt is coming in is because we’re bringing in this baggage. So for me, the first thing I do, Gar, like I said, I can’t even like, think about, I can’t even meditate at that point because sitting and doing it is too much, but I focus on breathing, you know? And then I, I kind of, I drop into my body, which is, you know, some of the practices we share in the book, because that feels less scary than trying to dissect my, which are really painful. So then I just feel myself breathe. And I was, you know, when I was getting through, I was just putting my hands on my belly, like real simple, my heart, just trying to come back into the body. Like, and sometimes that’s the first step.

Gary: 21:40 Yeah. But I think, you know, part of it is that, you know, you get a lot of, there’s a lot of energy that builds up inside you. And so that’s why it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s good. Go for a walk, you know? Yeah.

Kimberly: 21:51 Change

Gary: 21:52 Environment, change the environment, like start moving your body around. Someone was asking me the other day, like, how do you get enthusiastic about stuff? You know, because I think one of the things I recommend in micro shifts is try to develop, you know, a constant try to develop enthusiasm. And that can be really difficult if you enthusiastic or exuberant about the things you’re working, you know, on or the relationship you’re in, um, or family issues and stuff. So how do you do it? And a lot of times you just kind of have to, there’s no better way of saying it than you just, you gotta move your body, you know, and you have to like, just go for a walk, you know, do Tony Robbins talks about and power moves. Right. And there’s still these things that he does with his arms. I see. Don’t do that. And Tony Robb has huge arms. Right. And so, you know, he’s waving these, like these, these, these missiles around. Yeah,

Kimberly: 22:39 Exactly.

Gary: 22:39 He’s like, you know,

Kimberly: 22:40 He’s like this enormous man, just do that. Right.

Gary: 22:43 And so, but he has, but, but there’s something to that, right. When you able to like move your body, you’re able dispel a little bit of the energy and Eckhart talks about that as well is just that you have energy that just kind of collects inside you, emotional energy, your physical energy, and you need to be able to get that out. Yes. That’s why, you know, that’s why like, it’s, you know, if your kid is going bonkers, right. Put ’em in the yard or take ’em outside, let them run around because they gotta get that out. Yes. And, uh, you don’t really change as we get older. Right. We get older, we get wrinkly or, you know,

Kimberly: 23:13 Different types of toys.

Gary: 23:15 This is different type of toys. We’re still like the kids we gotta get out there and run around. And so, um, but yeah, if anyone is feeling like that, it’s one of the first things to do is just kind of move around, move the physical body, move the physical body. Right. And the thing is, is that we’re a body and soul, you know, and Deepak and I have like, talked about this over the years. It’s just, you know, we’re, it’s one unit it’s body, soul, or, you know, body, mind, soul. Right. It’s all the same. It’s all linked. And so you can’t, if you take away the mind, right. Um, you know, the body can’t function and if you take away the body, then the soul, you know, is, is disconnected and is something totally different. And so it all acts together. And, and so when you move your body, you’re helping your mind, but you’re also helping your soul as well. So yeah, it’s just move around, you know, is one of the first things to do.

Kimberly: 24:02 Oh, I think that’s so great. Um, Garrett, like for me, my walk is my sanctuary. And like you said, moving around, I can’t go right to just sit for 30 minutes and meditate. It feels too uncomfortable. So for me, I move, I go on a walk. I also listen to music. And what that also does is it keeps me from talking, because I notice in those Perry of self doubt, like whatever’s coming out of our mouth, anything we’re gonna write any email, we’re gonna have to clean up the mess later. You know? So if you’re doubting something and you see something on social media that triggers you, um, we’re not gonna be coming from the true self place. So wouldn’t be coming from this lower vibration place. So anything you’re producing is not, is gonna be, you know, blocking in some way. Um, I could say sniffy things to my husband and then have to apologize later, or my team or whatever it is.

Kimberly: 24:53 So I go, I leave, I stay in my, I try to stay in my body and I stop talking to other people until, and you research too Garrett. And you, you, you know, you’re deep in research as well. There was one thing I wrote you, Harvard, um, this stuff, he said it was 90 seconds for the intense biochemical reactions of, you know, whether it’s, you know, these rage or anger or debilitating, self-doubt, it starts to fizzle down after about 90 seconds. Right. And then Hawkins talks about that 10 minutes for like the intensity, but we know time starts to let us regular. So letting that time go, like you said, in constructive activities, but not paying attention to the thoughts and not trying to talk.

Gary: 25:35 Yeah. Right. Right. And I mean, and again, it’s that, this is where the mind of course is like playing games with you. Right. Because the, uh, cuz we’re, you know, if, if you’re feeling bad or you’re feeling good, it’s, it’s really often based upon the conversation you’re having inside your head. Right. So someone can compliment you. Right. You can make it, let you feel great or it can make you feel terrible. Right. Or someone you could accidentally hear someone say something terrible. Like, um, someone has passed away and you’re like, oh my God, someone’s passed away. No, I didn’t say that. I said, you know, I need to put this, this, this mass away or whatever it is. Right. But you got it wrong. But your body, even though the reality is, is that no one’s passed away in instant. You had an instant change of state.

Tips on how music and its vibration is a source for healing 

Gary: 26:21 Right. And, and that’s scary because the, um, because our, our state can change really quickly. Even know if it’s not the reality. Right. You misheard something. And so you, you kind of like jump and, you know, and that’s all, it’s all part of evolution. Right. And so it’s a way of us protecting ourselves, you know, these things ignite the, uh, you know, the, the fight flight or freeze. And when you go through dark night soul, right. I think you’re, I think you’re experiencing all three of them at the same time. Right. Fight flight and freeze. Yeah. You know, and you’re just like, and what, and, and you’re, you’re just, you are, you’re frozen. Right. Because you’re kind of just like trapped there and you may be fighting with yourself and then, you know, it’s just, all of it like comes together. And so, but yeah, but moving your body and also, I mean, look, rub the vagus nerve. Right. You know, it’s good to like, you know, rub, rub your neck. If you’re feeling a little like, you know, tense or whatever.

Kimberly: 27:17 No, that’s good advice.

Gary: 27:18 You know, just stimulate that a little bit. And you and I were just talking, it’s why one of the reasons why I asked you about the O you know, meditation is that, you know, when you perform any kind of humming, right. Or, or if you’re performing in O meditation, if you pay attention, your body’s vibrating. Yeah. Right. And, and that’s part of, you know, the reason why you do it is because you’re trying to change your vibrational state, your energetic state. And, and so being able to kind of like massage the vagus nerve, um, humming, owning, chanting, chanting, yes. Praying, singing, right. So you have music you’re listening to, and if you’re on the beach or you’re out and about, and you can sing out loud, you know, singing is a VI is a vibrationary action. And so that’s good for you. Um, that’s why I think most of us feel good if we can like, you know, be in the car by ourselves and crank music and then sing along because you’re, you’re having a physical state change. Right. And it’s, and it, you know, it releases endorphins and it starts releasing like good chemicals to make you feel a little bit better, which is why, you know, music really does calm the Savage, you know, beast in us

Kimberly: 28:23 Sometimes. Ah, that’s such a great point, Garrett. And I was, you know, I don’t wanna gloss over that because like I said, I go on the walk and then I listen to my music. And then two other people that I listen to the most are chant artists. Krishna Das and MC YOGI, MC YOGI was on the podcast last week here. And it’s funny because I feel, you know, people say to me, oh, I feel like, you know, I know you, I feel like you’re my friend, because, you know, because I’m in the kitchen with you and I’m in the, in the, you know, in the, in the, you know, in your phone, in your ears, listening to me while you’re going on the walk with a podcast and you get that familiarity and same thing with these musicians, they’ve been with me through some really tough times and listening to their music, like you said, it’s a vibration. So that is a way to shift energy is like, Ooh, I feel horrible. But then I’m listening to something and he’s creating a little bit more space, a little bit of a shift. So we go, absolutely. We go to that, but where we’re not going yet is the thoughts. They’re not walling in the victimhood.

Gary: 29:21 Yeah. And there’s no reason why you, you shouldn’t stop thinking for a while. You know, why can’t you? Yeah. I mean, why can’t you just take a break from thinking, you know, or, or, and, and, and doing those things, going for a run, going for a walk, you know, dancing, you know, playing an instrument, these are all physical things. And, you know, and that’s why it just helps to get rid of one. I think it’s good for you to do those things. It makes you happier. But I think on the physical side, it just helps you get, it helps you at release energy. And, and when that energy’s trapped inside you, Mickey singer will talk a lot about this. You know, it helps to create them some scars, right. That, you know, and you need to be able to kind of like, get rid of this stuff because you, you need to be in a constant state of flow.

Kimberly: 30:05 Right. Exactly. Or dynamic.

Gary: 30:07 And if you’re not right, if your blood’s not flowing, guess what you die. Right. And if it gets, if there’s blockages there, you’re gonna have a heart attack. And if there’s a blockage in your brain, you’re gonna have a stroke. And so your whole body needs to be in flow internally, but it also needs to be in flow externally. And, and so whatever happens, you know, inside should be happening outside, you know, the old, uh, the old adage as above, so below. Right. Or as right as above, so below. So as inside, also outside and, and also as outside

Kimberly: 30:37 As a micro the macro. Yeah,

Gary: 30:39 Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so, and that’s, and, and, and I’m talking about good stuff. So all the crazy stuff outside, well, that’s why you have protective skin and, and why you can make decisions. Cuz you can keep that some, some of that stuff outside, uh, we don’t wanna bring toxins into our bodies. Right. We just wanna keep, wanna make sure there’s a really good sense of flow in everything that we do.

Kimberly: 30:58 So Gar, you know, when I was moving through that, that period of, of, of darkness, um, you know, there’s a line between giving yourself the space and going through it. And then I was, you know, I was talking though, still too much, I think until I went for my walk. So my husband Jon was saying to me, oh, look at your pity party. And I was like, Hmm. You know, it can seem that way to external. If we’re, if we’re in that, you know, cycle may sound like a crazy person, we’re saying the same things over and over again. But I knew inside I wasn’t able to move through it yet. So it was, it didn’t feel like a pity party to me. But again, that’s where I think it’s for that time, like you said, stop thinking for a moment, close your mouth, move your body.

Gary: 31:42 Yeah.

Kimberly: 31:43 Do something else.

Why developing a sense of awareness is critical in working through the darkness

Gary: 31:44 I, yeah. Do something else. The, the, the problem for all of us is that we have to catch ourselves. Right. And if we don’t catch ourselves yeah. You know, you can, you can then spiral. Right. So it’s, it is very difficult. And I do have a lot of like sympathy for folks who, you know, who experience the dark night or experience pity parties, is it right? Or, you know, because it can be hard to catch yourself. And that’s where, you know, and I think that’s one of the biggest problems that, that people face is maybe either not having the tools or needing to develop a sense of awareness. Like when this stuff happens, okay, what is the tool? What can I do? Okay. I’m, I’m stuck on the couch. It feels terrible. I’m crying, you know? Yeah. And I’m not crying like for a good way.

Gary: 32:28 I just, I feel just like terrible, you know, and you know, what can I do? And sometimes I’m gonna contradict myself, but sometimes it means doing nothing. Yeah. Right. And then just allowing yourself to just kind of be, I think a lot of times, you know, but everyone’s got responsibility, so they have to take care of kids. They got a job, they gotta take care of a family member or a parent or something like that. So it’s hard for people. And so they carry around that kind of sadness and that energy and all that they do. But sometimes you just need to like wallow you, you know, and allow yourself to experience that dark night. Yeah. Because it is, there is something going on,

Kimberly: 33:04 There is something going on,

Gary: 33:06 There’s going on, there’s something going on. And it’s like, and it’s, and it’s kind of like a fire, right. And a fire, you know, like you can take a metal, put it in fire and you forge steel. Right. And it makes it stronger and it, you know, and then we can mold things in the fire. And so I think part of that dark night of the soul is also this kind of fiery experience that we, that we’re having, but we can be molded. Right. And we can be molded in, in, in some very, very strong and powerful ways. So it’s, it’s super complex, you know, and it’s good to have someone it’s good to have a friend, someone to like help you get through it. Um, and sometimes people don’t have that. Right. And that’s, that’s tough. So I think the great work that you do on like social media, through your books, through your talks, through everything that you do, you know, really is contributing to helping folks out there from all different parts, you know, all, all different parts of the world, all walks of life. Cuz sometimes people out there don’t have a friend or don’t know like do. And so yeah. You know, you talking and, and sharing your experiences I think is really, really powerful and, and, and positive for folks.

Kimberly: 34:08 Well, thank you, Gary. Like it’s true. We need to share with each other, we need, we need tools. And some, sometimes it feels so overwhelming. So I’d love to go back to, um, the Microshift for a moment because it’s such a powerful book. If you guys haven’t read it yet, please, um, you know, be sure to pick up a copy

Gary: 34:25 And, and, and just to say like this month in February, I worked it out with a publisher. So it’s, it’s the e-book is free on, on Amazon until the end of February. So check it out. Amazing. It’s just, there’s nothing there’s there’s no, you know, you don’t have to pay anything pure offer. Hopefully check it out. Yeah. It’s an offering to everybody. So

Kimberly: 34:41 Thank you so much, Gar. So let let’s say, you know, D the soul, but self doubt in general, right? Like, which is, you know, I think one of the hardest things for people, for all of us is to get past comparison cuz it’s like, okay, I’m trying to, like, I think I’m doing good, but then I see, okay, this person’s way ahead. You know? And I was talking to, you know, whether it’s my friend, who’s, you know, whatever she’s in her mid 30, she’s not married yet. She’s like everybody else has kids, but me and it’s like that feeling where you compare like everybody, you know, um, another friend was like, I should be at this point in my career, I don’t have the money. I’m still rent this tiny apartment. Or, you know, again, the person on social media, that’s like, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m putting out some good information about fitness or whatever it is, how come I don’t have that many followers. It’s so hard not to compare Gar. And so what are some of the micro ship things we could do to get past that? But because I think then it, you know, know, again, it accumulates, accumulates all this energy and then we get to the dark night of the soul and that I think is meant to happen at times. But then there’s also the daily just like, Ugh, like little pings that can feel times bigger or smaller.

Microshifts for getting past self-comparison

Gary: 35:50 Yeah. I mean, I mean, one of the things, one of the things that I think is really good for you, but can be a little difficult cult is to, you know, to, I say it inside, like observe the observer, right. As like a, um, yeah. This micro shift, which is just kind of, you know, okay, so this is happening, this is what you’re thinking. And then take a step back. Well, who’s actually doing the thinking, right. Who’s having this thought as you’re having it and to kind of, of observe where your thoughts are and to just kind of observe that and that, and that does take you out of that moment for a little bit. And if you could and what, and what that observer is that observer is the soul. That observer is the true self. You talk about this in your book as well.

Gary: 36:33 You know, being able to kind of just take a step back and observe like what you’re feeling, what you’re experiencing. And then, you know, I mean, I also have like the, the three minute rule. Like if I’m, you know, if I’m feeling really bad, I’ll give myself three minutes to kind of feel it and then I’ll try to like, do a change your state. Right. Yeah. And just kind of like, all right, you know what, I’m gonna allow myself to just feel terrible for like three, five minutes or whatever. And then, you know what, I’m just gonna do something else and I’m gonna like change, you know what I’m thinking about to

Kimberly: 36:59 Put that time on it.

Gary: 37:01 Yeah. And to just put like, you know, put, put a timeframe on it because that’s the thing is that we can let these things trickle out, you know, over long periods of time. And you know, if you get a, you know, if you get the leak in your house, it’s not necessarily a bad thing if you catch it right away. Right, right, right, right. But if you, if it, but if you go out for the weekend end, right. And that leak starts, the moment that you leave and you come back and your entire house is flooded. Right. We, we go through that when we allow our thoughts, when we allow ourselves to focus on the same thing over and over again. And you know, and I do have, I have a lot of compassion for people who like say, oh, I’m 30 or I’m 40.

Gary: 37:34 And I haven’t done this and I haven’t done that. And I think you’re reacting to something even inside, because it’s important to you. And I think, you know, you can definitely like, feel like, take that moment to like, feel bad. But I think the reason why you’re having that experience is because there’s something inside you, true self that’s saying, Hey, it’s out there for you now just take, you know, try to take a step, you know, in the direction that you need take. You know? And so I think anytime, like we have like moments of self doubt, they’re painful and they stink. Right. But I also think it’s a RO it’s a sign post that says, Hey, that’s because something’s bothering you to inside you. That’s why you you’re having this. Something’s bothering you. Which means if something’s bothering you, go fix it. Right. And try to, and, and try to like make, you know, a small step, again, like a microshift.

Gary: 38:25 Can I spend five minutes trying to like figure out what it is that I need to do in terms of my finances in terms of my relationships, you know? And I don’t think you have to put a ton of time into it, but I think it’s, it’s not allowing yourself to get stuck in the thought, but allowing yourself, you know, to be there for a while, but then to take, you know, to really, to take action. And a lot of people like say, well, no, you need to be able to feel your feelings. And I totally get that. But I think, but I think the reason why people feel stuck because they don’t either don’t know how to take action or they’re not taking action. And it makes them feel worse when they don’t.

Kimberly: 39:00 Yeah, exactly. And also there’s the feeling, your feelings like going in and feeling, and then what, you know, we talk, I talk about in the book and Hawkins talks about so much, but then what people think they’re feeling, they’re feelings, they’re actually going into the thoughts and it’s a cycle. Yeah.

Gary: 39:13 Are they going into the thoughts?

Kimberly: 39:14 Exactly. So that’s not, not really feeling your feelings. Um, and I think that’s so important, Garrett. It’s like, okay, what is this saying? And then can I take an action step here and not make it mean anything? And then the other part for me, Garrett, is, you know, I know this is the truth and it keeps growing and, you know, experiential, like when I meditate, I know this interstate, this bliss, this sheet growing inside of me is priceless. Right? So sometimes when I get caught up in comparison too, it’s this reminder, like it doesn’t, you know, the things we think are so important, they don’t really matter. It’s not giving you what you think it’s gonna give you necessarily. You know, when I worked with, um, these clients that were so much money, so much, you know, fame, like all this stuff. And then I say, wow, like they really mentally, emotionally are in the same place as all of us. Right. We’re all suffering. So it’s like, we think these things are gonna, you know, radically change things. We go, it goes back to I’m comparing because I feel small inside like this stuff, but the stuff that I’m trying to like judge myself on, isn’t the ultimate you, you know, and it’s hard to like wrap your head around that in the moment, but it’s true.

Gary: 40:22 Yeah. And look, man, look, money, power fame. You know, they say it doesn’t buy happiness. Oh, it can buy happiness. Right. But you’re still gonna have problems with it. Right. Well,

Kimberly: 40:32 Its like

Gary: 40:33 Temporary, right? Yeah. It can buy, can buy temporary happiness, but you’re still gonna have those problem. So the, uh, and that’s why, again, coming back to your book and like the title is that you, you are more than you think you are. Right. You know? And, and, and that is so, and, and that’s, and that’s what you’re you keep coming back to this just, there’s more to you, you have this, you know, you, you have this, this wealth of inner power that’s given to you because you’re part of the infinite, because you’re part of the infinite. Right. So you’re able, um, to just to be able to do more and to, you know, the thing is, is just our thoughts hold us back. And it really is our thoughts. Our emotions are, like you said, are very D front. Like when we have an emotion, we have a feeling we’re having an experience.

Gary: 41:22 And then the mind like interprets it. Like I’m, I’m kind of like not to get overly dark, but I’m kind of a little bit fascinated by, by suicide. Like what is it about us? Like all of a sudden you’re experiencing something, right. You’re experiencing something and, and it’s very bad and it’s terrible. And then the mind says, yeah, go kill yourself. You should go kill yourself. Right. Where does that come from? Like, I mean, I, I, where does that? That is ju I, I I’ve had, uh, someone very close to me recently who, who passed away through suicide and, and, and there’s no answers to any of that. But, but I, you know, I like, it’s like the mind tricked him into, into doing something because he was feeling something that was very, very powerful. And I’m sure very, very dark too. And, but the mind is like this trickster and, and it needs to be kept in and the way that you keep it in check, do stuff physically, right.

Gary: 42:16 Do practices. And don’t allow yourself, right. If you can to try and like break those patterns. And Tony Robbins talks about this too, how do we break the pattern? Right. You break the pattern by moving around, you break the pattern by changing the subject, you break the pattern by, you know, going into therapy and like, you know, you know, finding some really good techniques and all of that. And, uh, um, one of the things that you and I were talking about the other day was the idea of like, like when you take a seed and you plant it into the ground, oh, it’s so brilliant. It’s very, it’s very dark, right? Uh, you’re, it’s, here’s this kind of like, it’s solitary, it’s all by itself and you put it into the ground and then there’s bugs everywhere and maybe it’s wet or maybe it’s dry, it’s wet.

Gary: 42:56 And it’s weird. It’s gross in there. It’s gross. Right. And then your body, and, and then the seed’s body at a certain point, like starts to feel something. And, and what happens to the seed? Well, the seed actually explodes, right? It has to crack open for, for the DNA or everything that’s in there. They start to come out of, of it. Right. And then it’s like, this thing is, so you’ve gone through this really painful experience and it’s still not over. And it’s like, but I know where I gotta go because there’s heat or there’s light. I feel something, yeah. On the other side, I gotta keep going. I gotta keep going. And it struggles and it struggles and it struggles then of a sudden it pops right out of the ground. Right. And there’s daylight. Right. And it is new life. And, you know, and I wish there was a way of like hooking up, like sensors to a, a seed to see how much pain it’s experiencing, like what, you know, what, what’s it state?

Gary: 43:45 Because it goes through all of this, you know, it goes through this transformation, but that transformation is really, really, you know, it’s painful. And so when we have these dark nights of the soul, when we have moments of like real, severe doubt, yeah. You’re going to transformation and transformation is always, I’ll go on limb. And I’ll say transformation is always painful in, in one way or the other. Yeah. You know, there’s there. And, and true transformation is always, if you wanna become a body builder, you gotta have to, it’s gonna hurt, you know? Yeah. And you wanna become an Olympic runner, you gonna hurt. And if you wanna become someone who’s really great at physics, it’s gonna hurt because your brain is gonna be pushed to the edge. And so transformation hurts. And so I see, I think part of what you’ve been experiencing is that I, I think you’re right on target. I mean, I think you’re, you know, the, the train is like right on time and it’s, and you’re going through a transformation because you’ve come to, you know, you’ve come to the end of a journey and you’re starting a new one. Yeah. You know, and this is to take the information that you’ve written about and disseminate it and get it out to as many people as you possibly can. And that’s gonna be a painful experience, but a good experience. It is be

Kimberly: 44:51 Good. And yeah. All the becoming a parent Gar you transform from being single person. Um, yeah. So one, one thing I’ll say Gar is we, as we wrap up here is that, um, it’s true that the practices that go back to the tools that, you know, so passionate about sharing in the book that have helped me so much, the meditations, the way did not just, you know, think of a half, be waterfall and just like sit in relaxation, but really working towards that union, you know, with the little self, with God inside of us source universe, whatever we word we wanna use. And I know when I do the practices more gear my day to day experience of feeling like, oh, what are, you know, competition or comparison like the, it does get lit. And I think because, because of these tools, I’m more present when we’re really present and I’m talking, I’m not in my head thinking, well, is my shirt better than your shirt? Or like, you know, did you accomplish more than me? Like that goes away when we’re really present. Right. Comparison does go down, you know, because oh,

Gary: 45:49 Absolutely. Comparison

Kimberly: 45:50 Is like all the thing you’re like when this person do in the it’s so much of the past, right? What are you, what did you do before this conversation? What did I do before? But if I’m just showing up, it’s present,

Gary: 45:59 You know, absolutely. It’s, you know, it’s walking out of a room and a conversation that you don’t want to hear, you know, and that’s, and I think that’s what it, you know, comes down to, you know, it’s like the, we go through, you know, these periods and, you know, and sometimes we just have to say, I don’t give a right. And I, I don’t care. And I’m like, shut up and you say it to yourself, you know what shut up. And then you move on. Right. And then you just walk out the, I love you metaphorically walk out of, walk out the room. So you’re not listening to the crazy person who’s talking. And, and this is one of the things I always, you know, who people who kind of, you know, have problems with the chatter inside their head and all this, the, the, the talk and self doubt is to all right, listen to what you’re saying, but imagine that you’re in a car with somebody, right. And that, and that your mind is actually another person in the car. Right. And, and you’re driving along just being you, but you’re listening to this other crazy person. Who’s sitting in the seat next to you. How long before you pull over and kick that person outta the car, right?

Kimberly: 46:59 Yeah.

Gary: 46:59 Yeah. How long? Pretty quickly. Right? Because this person’s saying is going on and on and on and on. And, um, and, and to just do that, because a lot of times, you know, we don’t, we don’t hear how, you know, kind of obsessive or yeah. You know, out of bounds and really how like, CEP, like Naly deprecating against ourselves. Sorry, panic. And again, and it’s one of those things. I just, I don’t understand. Why do we have to be so bad to, you know, ourselves? Yeah. I don’t understand that. I don’t get that. Why do we have to, why, why not choose the other way? Why not?

Kimberly: 47:33 Yeah.

Gary: 47:34 I, I don’t know how to answer that, but that’s something that I, I mean, it’s a mystery and I, I don’t really understand why, you know, more often than not. I think if you talk to people, they experience probably more self-doubt than they exp uplifting themselves inside. So I, I don’t know. I don’t have an answer for any of that, but it’s something wander.

Kimberly: 47:57 I don’t know what we’re wired to go this way. And you, Gary, I know you worked on these, like, um, you’ve worked on some of the incredible books, but you did, you mentioned Mike Mickey singer, the surrender experiment, like you was just going through and just, you know, flowing along. And it’s like, he wrote that other book, but don’t like, he, I think when I read his work, he was like watching the chatter, but how did he really get past the chatter to this point where he can just surrender to life? You know, you think it’s just that constant watching that is the practice until you don’t know

Gary: 48:28 Anymore. Think. Yeah. And I think Mickey kind of, of embodies kind of like this, this idea of like detachment, you know, and I think there’s few there’s, but how did he get there? You know, I, I think it’s partly how he’s wired, to be honest with you. I mean, having spoken to him over the years and kind of like worked with him on that book, he was someone who was able to always a strong, if you read the surrender experiment, it was a struggle for him to kind of quiet down all the chatter. But once he got to that place, you know, things really kind of transformed. And, and I think it was because, I mean, he was one who was living in the wood. Right. He was living in the woods in Florida. And so, Yeah. And, and he seemingly like, didn’t care about like, possessions, right? I mean, he was a bit like a little, like a little

Kimberly: 49:13 Yeah.

Gary: 49:13 Cabin triangle, how cabin that he was like living in and, you know, and he, he wasn’t, he wasn’t really attached to a lot of things. And so, and, and like all of us, we all have our attachments, but, but that, but that ability to detach right. Which is a really kind of like big, like St. Ignatius talks about this quite, quite a lot. Um, doesn’t use the word detachment, but that’s what he’s talking about, you know? And the, and the Geza talks about this as well, throw yourself into the dinner battle. Yep. Throw yourself into the battle. And don’t worry about the outcome, because if you’re worried about the outcome, you’re diverting energy and you’re diverting focus on whether or not you’re gonna like stay alive. And instead of doing what you’re supposed to be doing, which is to be present right now present. And so, right.

Gary: 49:55 And so if you’re diverting your energy, you know, it’s like trying to, like you, you’re walking down the street and then one leg goes this way and, and the other leg goes this way. Uh, you’re either gonna split yourself in half. Right. And you, or you’re gonna get a really bad crying like pole or something like that. So, you know, that the Gita, you know, is really talking about detachment to be detached, you know, and you’ll have a lot more fun if you’re not worried about like, you know, where you’re gonna end up, you know, and just do. And, and the thing is is that if you’re doing the right things, you’re gonna end up in a good place. You just will.

Kimberly: 50:27 I love it, Garrett. I could talk to you forever. You are one of my favorite people in the whole world to talk to. Oh, you

Gary: 50:33 Too. You too. Thank you so much for, it was so great to talk with you today.

Kimberly: 50:36 Oh, Garrett. And so, um, all my loves, please check out Microshifts on Amazon. Like Gar said, if you are an audio book, um, uh, you know, you’re passionate about audiobook. I never listen. I gotta tell you something. I’ve never listen an audiobook in my life.

Gary: 50:52 Oh yeah. It’s available on audio, but the e-book, this month is all free. So the e-book is so anyone who wants to download it on Amazon or Barnes to noble or at apple, it’s free across the board. And so I just wanted to share, you know, we’re coming into like a whole, like a really holy season in the spring. And so I wanted, I wanted to share the book with as many people as possible. And so we worked out a deal to like, to do that. So amazing. Check it out, please. And then if micro shift and if people like it, you know, right in, cause I’d love to hear, I love to hear from folks.

Kimberly: 51:21 And then Gary, do you have any speaking coming up?

Gary: 51:25 No, not presently. I mean, sometime, um, yeah, my falls get pretty good. Um, or get the August through like December gets kind of booked up, but

Kimberly: 51:34 Oh, great. We’ll have to let us know and I’ll post and share about it because Gary is also an amazing, amazing speaker and yeah, just, um, I’ve learned so much from you, Gar, thank you for being a real rock for me and the, I love to share your energy with the, with the community. So there’s Microshifts and then there’s 15 minute prayers. We’ll link to all your books and the show notes, just cuz I, I keep them around. I actually have all your books right here in my office because when someone has, um, that grounded energy, it, I think it comes through in the books and it feels like having a friend. So, um, thank you so much, Gary. You’re such a beautiful and I appreciate you so much.

Gary: 52:11 Thank you, Kim. You know, I wanted to just share like this one, like short prayer for everybody please, before we like leave. And so this is from, um, the prayer of St. Tore of ALA. And so she, uh, was a contemporary of St. John, the cross who wrote, uh, the poem that became the dark Knight of the soul. So they were, they, they experienced their own, she experienced her own dark night of the soul. And so these are the words, let nothing disturb. You let nothing frighten. You, all things pass. God does not change. Patience, achieve everything. Whoever has God lacks, nothing, God and suffices.

Kimberly: 52:52 Mm wow. It almost makes you wanna cry.

Gary: 52:56 So keep that. And I hope that, I mean, I hope that brings some joy and some light to some people.

Kimberly: 53:03 Wow. So much love Gar. Thank you so much. God

Gary: 53:05 Bless you. Bless you.

Kimberly: Well loves. I hope you enjoyed our interview today. As much as I enjoyed the conversation is amazing. Please check out his work over at garyjansen.com. Also be sure to check out Microshifts on Amazon, as we discussed, be sure to also see the other, uh, podcast. I recommend recipes meditations over the show notes, and I will be back here Thursday as always for our next Q&A podcast to then take great care of your wonderful, unique, beautiful self. And I’ll see you soon. Namaste.