Closing the Courage Gap with Margie Warrell [Episode 1000]
This Week’s Episode Special Guest: Dr. Margie Warrell
In this conversation, Margie Warrell discusses her book ‘The Courage Gap’ and explores the themes of courage, fear, and self-discovery. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the courage gap, which is the space between knowing what we should do and actually taking action. Margie shares insights on how to overcome fear, the significance of being authentic, and the relationship between courage and love. She also reflects on her personal journey, including her struggles with an eating disorder and the loss of loved ones, and how these experiences have shaped her mission to empower others.
About Dr. Margie Warrell
Dr. Margie Warrell is a five-time best-selling author, keynote speaker, leadership coach, and Forbes columnist. With twenty-five years of experience living and working around the world, she has dedicated her life to helping others overcome fear and unlock their potential.
From her humble beginnings on a small farm in rural Australia to her current role as a Senior Partner at Korn Ferry and Advisory Board member for the Forbes School of Business & Technology, Margie has learned that courage is essential for every worthwhile endeavor. A mother of four and an advocate for women’s empowerment, she inspires others to live bravely and refuse to settle in any aspect of life.
Episode Sponsors:
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Guest Resources
Website: margiewarrell.com
Social Media: margie@margiewarrell.com
Episode Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Impact of Synthetic Dyes
01:23 Personal Journey: The Catalyst for Change
06:12 The Science Behind Synthetic Dyes and Their Effects
10:49 Regulatory Challenges and the FDA’s Role
13:58 The Power of Awareness and Advocacy
18:40 The Broader Implications of Food Dyes in Society
26:10 Legislative Efforts Against Synthetic Dyes
28:05 Challenges in National Regulation
29:20 Impact of Synthetic Dyes on Children
30:24 Finding Alternatives to Dyes
32:15 The Cost of Healthier Choices
34:09 The Struggles of Medical Dependency
35:51 Elimination and Its Immediate Benefits
38:41 The Broader Implications of Dyes
40:11 Adult Reactions to Synthetic Dyes
43:03 The Journey of Creating the Documentary
48:41 Where to Watch the Documentary
SOLLUNA PRODUCT LINKS
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KIMBERLY’S BOOKS
- Chilla Gorilla & Lanky Lemur Journey to the Heart
- The Beauty Detox Solution
- Beauty Detox Foods
- Beauty Detox Power
- Radical Beauty
- Recipes For Your Perfectly Imperfect Life
- You Are More Than You Think You Are
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Transcript:
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (00:00.691)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our show. I have a very special guest here with me today from across the country in Washington DC. I’m so excited to chat with her after reading her brand new book called The Courage Gap, Five Steps to Braver Action, Margie Worrell, PhD, who is a five-time bestselling author, a keynote speaker, leadership advisor,
And I can’t help but also add from reading her book, Mother of Four. Margie, thank you so much for being here. I felt like that should be part of the bio and I just wanted to it in organically because it’s really amazing that you’ve created so much. And that was one of the things you talked about in the book, but also breaking this idea of limitation that you couldn’t be successful in your career and also be a mother of four. So congratulations on all fronts.
Margie Warrell (00:40.392)
Yeah.
Margie Warrell (00:59.106)
Thanks, Kimberly. It’s great to be with you.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:02.661)
Margie, so much to say about courage and fear. And I want to dive a little bit deeper. You and I were chatting before about how much of the conversation in our Feel Good podcast community has been about the heart and you really connect courage and the heart. But before we get that far, tell us about this gap, the courage gap and what that really means.
Margie Warrell (01:30.222)
Well, I know I’ve had this experience myself many times, Kimberly, but I’ve also had many people share their own of knowing there was something that they should do, something they wanted to do, something they knew they needed to do. Maybe it was a difficult conversation. Maybe it was disentangling themselves from a relationship they knew was just sucking the life blood out of them.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (01:42.045)
Mm.
Margie Warrell (01:55.882)
maybe it was going after something they really wanted and they just had so much doubt and yet they were holding back, they were hesitating, they were procrastinating, they were coming up with all sorts of great reasons and it’s my observation that our fear creates the gap between
what we’re doing on a daily basis but also over the course of our lives and what it is we’re capable of doing between having an insight going know I should do that and actually doing it and it takes courage to close that gap.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:22.567)
Mm-hmm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:30.663)
Mm-hmm.
Margie Warrell (02:31.054)
And so many people I’ve met in my work and travels around the world, Kimberly, are living smaller lives than they’re capable of living because they’re afraid of what will happen if they step forward into that gap, if they take that action when there’s a chance that they might fall short or mess up, make a mistake, make a fool of themselves. And so I wanted to write a book that would be really, really practical to help people in those moments when you’re like, do I don’t
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (02:58.951)
Yes.
Margie Warrell (03:00.938)
I do I don’t I to just step forward and do it.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (03:06.139)
I resonate with those moments. Like you said, it could be something you can pinpoint, like, this relationship or this conversation. But one of the things that I started to feel into when I was reading your book is also the courage to be yourself. And what I mean by that is it’s really easy to wear different masks because we think that’s how we’re gonna be liked or accepted. You know, for me, Margie, there’s been a lot of…
Like dismantling wanting to be seen as serious and smart and overcoming perfectionism through my childhood. so just like putting things out there in a certain way, right? And it takes courage to be like, hey, but I have this whole side of me that’s more alive and silly and wacky and letting that show too in some situations except for like now my kids and my husband see it. And it feels…
scary sometimes to really let yourself be seen. But wow, the life force, Margie, right? So this quote, there’s so many quotes, first of all, in the book that I just think are like spectacular. And I was sharing with you how many I had highlighted, but there’s one in particular that resonates here. And I’ll paraphrase it. was something about when you connect to who you want to be, it informs your doing.
So was reading this and I was like, who I wanna be is free. My freedom and wholeness are like my two guiding lights. And if I wanna be free and whole, means not being fearful people aren’t gonna like me if I show these parts of me, right? And so it informs how I’m expressing, it informs how I’m writing, it informs how I’m speaking. And it feels scary at times, but it also feels really good.
Margie Warrell (04:50.146)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Margie Warrell (04:55.426)
Yeah well just because it’s scary sure doesn’t mean it’s bad right in fact often that’s the very thing we have to do and I like to frame it this way Kimberly that whenever we are letting what other people might think about us
be pulling the strings and directing our decisions and kind of in charge of how shaping how we show up. We’re essentially held captive to other people’s opinions and approval. We’re held captive to what I call impression management. Do they like me? You know, do they think I’m cool? Do they think I’m funny? Do they think I’m pretty? Do they think I’m smart? And that’s part of the human condition, right? Like we all long to belong. We want to be approved of.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:14.844)
in
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (05:34.845)
Managing. Yeah.
Margie Warrell (05:43.014)
We want people to think well of us and so there’s nothing wrong with that because it is wired into us but really our own human journey is developing the awareness that reclaims that power.
recognizing I’m giving this away right now. I’m trying to sound really smart. I’m trying to look really hip. I’m trying to look like my family’s a perfect family or whatever it is versus you who am I when I strip all that you know impression management and caring about approval seeking and pleasing away and I think it’s a lifelong journey Kimberly. I don’t feel like you can just flick a switch and go that’s it. I don’t care what anyone thinks because people have to say that really loudly. I’m like okay you care a lot what everyone thinks.
So I think just that’s a self-awareness piece, right?
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:28.284)
Yeah.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (06:32.371)
Well, so your book has these questions and introspecting and sort of telling stories about other people’s courage and vulnerability because it can feel like a lot in there, right? Like there’s a reason why we’re wearing masks. There’s a reason why you don’t leave a relationship even though it’s crappy. There’s a reason you stay in a job that, you know, isn’t serving your life purpose.
So it’s like, ugh, it’s like a lot of energy and fear. So when you’re coaching, when you’re working with people and how you dismantle it in the book, Margie, what are some of the tips you would say to someone that’s even, you know, it feels like a lot to even broach the subject in the first place?
Margie Warrell (07:18.314)
It is a, I think it can be a lot and it’s like at what point, where do you even start? And before we pressed record, you and I talked about just that holistic even connecting in with our body and we can get there in a moment. But I think a really key thing that requires.
getting really just sometimes pressing pause on the business of our lives and zooming up and going, who is it I want to be in my one and only precious life? Thank you, Mary Oliver. Like, how do I want to show up? What are the values that want to define how I want to live my life and getting some clarity on that? Because when our values are clear, like for instance, I want to be kind or I want to be generous or I want to be a great mother.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (07:46.973)
Yeah.
Margie Warrell (08:05.232)
or a good friend. I want to be living using my gifts in ways that are meaningful and purposeful for me. When we get clarity on that it helps acts like a North Star. Like you know what I need to step away a little bit from this over here because it’s not nourishing me and I need to invest more time in this over here. Maybe it’s we’re building a skill, maybe we’re building a new web of of relationships but
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:32.498)
Yes.
Margie Warrell (08:33.742)
the clearer we are on the values that we want to define our lives by and who it is we want to be, then it makes it easier, not easy, but to rise above those very self-protective instincts that keep us stuck and playing it safe.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:39.847)
Wait.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:47.858)
Yes.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (08:51.837)
Well, you know, to echo something you just said, which I did think was an important part of the book, and I did write it down somewhere here, was inhabiting the body. Because sometimes when fear hits, we’re kind of like frozen or like taking, you know, going elsewhere. Tell us what you mean about inhabiting the body and how it can help us as a tool for overcoming fear.
Margie Warrell (09:15.928)
Well.
We all know that our thoughts can impact the emotions we feel and then how we feel in our body. But our body, it’s not a one way street. Our physiology, these earth suits that we have, they also impact how we think and how we feel. And so just recognizing that, that our physiology impacts our psychology, gives us a portal, a doorway to enter there. There’s a lever there. And so, okay, well, where is it that I’m holding onto?
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (09:25.393)
Okay.
Margie Warrell (09:47.124)
fear in my body and what would it look like and feel like and sound like and move like if I was embodying the courage that I wanted to have?
you know, it’s called a nervous system for a reason because we are our default is to be defensive, you know, on alert for, you know, who might who might threaten our sense of safety or our identity or reputation or our place in our social pack. And so just recognizing that that we can be moving through the world kind of in a defensive, anxious mode.
And so connecting in with our bodies helps connect that head and heart and hands and recognizing, okay, you know, what is it, where am I living from the neck up? Where am I stuck in my head, maybe? And I think that most powerful and easiest way to start with that is simply through our breath.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:34.65)
Mm-hmm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (10:45.756)
Mm-hmm.
Margie Warrell (10:46.318)
And I’m sure you’ve had many moments Kimberly where just pausing and taking the longest breath you’ve taken all day and just breathing in and I sort of like to couple this with a cognitive reframe. Breathe in courage, breathe out fear sort of allows us to reset you know that that vagus nerve that kind of goes down through us just to go okay where do I need to just tell my brain it’s okay right now.
Right now, in this moment, it’s okay. And to stand tall and put our shoulders back and put a smile on our face and like that, what is that telling our brain is that it’s okay, I got this, I don’t have to be going into full flight, you know, fight mode.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (11:31.079)
Well, a couple of things, I love how you do talk about posture in the book and you talk about standing up straight and really embodying, inhabiting that, you know, courage. And I remember there was a Ted talk a couple of years ago, some researcher from Princeton was talking about this body language that really did help you feel, as you also referenced in the book, just feeling more strong and brave. So I love that.
And also, Margie, you talk about the heart a lot in the book, which I resonate with so much. And my last book I mentioned before was about heart coherence and how the heart sends more messages to the brain. So when you work with the heart and you start to entrain the heart, brain, nervous system, you can really change your thoughts. And so there’s a certain point in the book where you talk about courage.
being a really high form of love. So before I read that part, Margie, I wrote back here, said, ask Margie about the relationship between courage and being loving and love, and then you hit on it. Because being courageous doesn’t mean cowering higher, being just like nice and not having challenging conversations and sort of being like people pleasing. There’s a power in lovingness that can be very courageous. Can you talk a little bit about that relationship?
Margie Warrell (12:49.036)
Yeah well the word courage comes from the word core French for heart and I know Brené Brown talked a lot about this like what it is to live a wholehearted life and the reason that I say that courage is love in its highest form and vice versa love is courage its highest form is it is living with our heart wide open to the full spectrum of human emotion.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:01.159)
Hmm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:13.341)
Hmm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:17.81)
Mm.
Margie Warrell (13:18.066)
And let’s face it, most of us would rather not feel the really painful emotions. Like, can we just have the good stuff? Like not that bad. I don’t want to feel, don’t my heart to be broken? I don’t want people to disappoint me. I don’t want to be rejected. I don’t want to be judged. And so to live with our heart wide open is to be fully open to that full spectrum of life’s experiences. And at the same time, deeply grounded.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:22.844)
Yes.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:35.869)
Mm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (13:41.138)
Beautiful.
Margie Warrell (13:45.466)
in ourselves, our own worthiness at a really kind of primal and sacred level that who we are is beyond what anyone might say about us, it’s also beyond our bodies too, that our bodies aren’t, that who we are is not our bodies, it’s not our emotional state, it’s not our mental and cognitive function because lord knows that goes down over time, our bodies won’t stay this, won’t be looking the same when we’re 90 and so just being able to connect at that real heart level
that often knows what it is we should do before our mind is willing to concede defeat. Because often we know what we should do and yet we’re like coming up with 3,000 really good reasons why not and our heart is like…
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (14:29.575)
Right.
Margie Warrell (14:31.252)
you know it, you know what you need to do. And I think that’s where, you know, living with our heart wide open is obviously easier said than done because we’re wired for protecting ourselves against pain or perceived pain or emotional injury.
And yet it’s a very liberating place to live from because when we can trust ourselves and our hearts to handle anything, it actually empowers us for everything. We’re more secure. We’re not less secure. We’re more secure in our lives. And that’s a work in progress sometimes, you know, two steps forward, one step back. But I like to ask people.
If you were not afraid of something happening that you couldn’t handle, if you could trust in your heart’s ability to handle anything, what is it that you would do? You know, what is it that you would change? What would you go after?
And like, well, if I wasn’t afraid of rejection, I’d do this. And if I wasn’t afraid of just making a fool of myself on the global stage, I’d do that. And it can just open up our aperture of what’s possible for us and be a really, yeah, very empowering, liberating space to be going through the world.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:52.115)
Mm.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (15:56.595)
You know, it’s, where is that quote? It’s be before do, grounding yourself in the certainty of who you want to be elevates what you do. Coupled with this other one, when you’re willing to feel anything, this is the one I really wanted, you embolden yourself for everything. So as children, Margie, a lot of us are, you we have these patterns, we’ve been hurt. What is it? 75 % of us.
according to Bessel van der Kolk and the body keeps the score, say we have a form of trauma. So we like, you’re right, we don’t want to feel rejected. We don’t like to feel outcast or that we don’t belong. So what happens, Margie, if we put ourselves out there, let’s say we decide to ask someone on a date and we do get rejected. And you do talk about learning from the courage, but what if that makes someone just want to go back into their hole?
Margie Warrell (16:54.734)
you
And that’s where our work lies, right? And that’s a natural response, because we’re giving other people’s opinion of us in some moment of time and they don’t even know us necessarily. We ask them out on a date and they’re like, no, maybe they don’t like our hair color. Who knows? But we’re giving them power because we’re saying, I care so much about your judgment of me. So again, we’re giving them the power to determine how we will feel about ourselves. And that’s where
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (17:24.957)
Right.
Margie Warrell (17:26.09)
there is so much power in us defining and being self-defining. I know I am worthy. Whether or not you think I’m worthy, I know I’m deeply and innately lovable and loved and loving and whether you see that or not is actually beside the point that I know I am. And so if someone else isn’t seeing that okay great on you go on your journey and on I go on mine. I thought maybe it could be a thing here but okay clearly not.
But the most attractive thing about people, sorry, let me rephrase that. The most attractive people are people who are not letting their worth be defined by everybody else.
They’re not outsourcing their self-esteem to how many likes they have on their post or to what invite list they’re on or how the guy they’re going out with looks. They’re really, they’re so at home in themselves. And that’s an incredibly attractive thing.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:09.298)
Yes.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (18:27.347)
Yes. So I think we have all met people like that and we can admire that. I can think of someone in my mind, she just kind of says whatever she wants. And sometimes it’s like a little bit too much, but still like she really, like you said, doesn’t, when people, she gets negative comments or at a party, people disagree with her, doesn’t affect her that much. So let’s say for anyone listening, Margie, we’re point A.
Because it’s easy, we can say, know I’m lovable, I have this self-worth, but we’re trying to cross over to be where we aren’t so suede and we’re not outsourcing. There’s a journey there.
Margie Warrell (19:08.792)
There is absolutely a journey and that’s our work. I mean, there’s various things we can do, tools we can use. I think I know myself, journaling over the course of my life has been a really powerful tool for reminding me of what at the deepest level I already know. You know, it’s like, you’re chasing.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:22.003)
Yes.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:25.681)
Me too.
Margie Warrell (19:33.554)
likes or approval, you’re chasing something out there that actually, no matter how much you get of it, it will never be enough.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (19:42.78)
Right.
Margie Warrell (19:44.334)
It’s just you’re on this treadmill. It’ll never be enough. I mean, you might think it’s going to be enough, but then you get it and you know it’s still not going to be enough. So I think journaling can be a great way to just explore that the inner regions of our lives and go, what is it that here that’s in my way and what does love look like today? And you know, maybe there’s people we need to step away from hanging out with so much. Maybe there’s people we need to set a boundary with. Maybe there’s other people over here we we need to invest more time with.
we’re not treating ourselves with as much love and respect. Maybe we’re abusing ourselves in some way because we just keep putting rubbish in ourselves. or we’re not taking care of ourselves the way we’d like to be. Or we’re letting a particular person get under our skin and we’re not setting a boundary on them and saying hey please don’t speak to me that way. You know I I don’t want you having those conversations. But that that concept of be before do that I wrote about in the book.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (20:37.531)
Yes.
Margie Warrell (20:44.274)
you know when you’re clear about who you want to be and you reset because that’s a choice we make every day then you know you’re doing your high grade you’re doing when i’m clear about who i want to be and so you know i have many moments where i’m like my doubts will be really loud in my head and i’ll be starting to go down this like rabbit hole of you’re never going to do this and you’re left behind and you don’t have what it takes and
And then I will take myself out for a walk for me getting out in nature, exercising, sometimes music all at once out in nature, exercising and listening to music that just really speaks to, I call it the God within me. That’s like what I really know. You know, that will just do that will shift the space I’m in. And then, you know what, how do I want to show up today? I want to show up. I want to I want to know that I’m here.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:21.159)
Yes.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:27.815)
Right.
Margie Warrell (21:33.74)
for great things and I show up as someone that lifts everyone around me and I’m not letting whether or not I landed that deal or got invited to speak at that event or XYZ, that is not going to determine how I feel about myself today and how I show up. And coming from that place, it’s like reclaiming our power and going, no, I will not be captive of my circumstances. I’m going to be the captain of my life and I will decide and I’m not going to give that away.
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (21:40.595)
you
Solluna By Kimberly Snyder (22:02.755)
you know, there’s a couple amazingly powerful things in there, Margie. The first thing is, you know, it isn’t like a switch. There is a journey, but I do think there is great power. You you used the term doing the work a couple of times. I think part of doing the work is considering what we’re talking about. And then reading a book like yours, where there really are these sort of standout introspective quotes. I circled a bunch in the book, as I mentioned to you.
And you can just sort of pause and say, hmm, what does this mean in my life? And journal. And I wanted to share, I’m a huge journaler. I hear my office. I have so many journals going back from when I was backpacking around the world. And it really is amazing. I don’t just write. I like to go back and read, Margie. And you could sort of see, wow, I overcame that fear. Or I had this realization afterwards. So I think there’s something really powerful in reading.
the book and looking at the quotes and also these stories that you tell inside. Because sometimes when we read other people’s stories, that’s why we’re so connected to each other. It can inspire us. And then the next part is quote on 120, ability to lift people up and affect positive change begins where your comfort zone ends. So, so much of our self doubt and fear is very me focused and very like, you know, there’s an, you know, there’s an egoic
quality to it. But when we kind of radiate out and focus on how we can be of service to others and how we can help other people be more enthusiastic, where we can give praise, where we can give encouragemen
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