Elevate Your Relationships through Radical Listening with Robert Biswa

Elevate Your Relationships through Radical Listening with Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh [Episode #986]

This Week’s Episode:

In this heartfelt conversation, Kimberly interviews mother-daughter duo Suzy and Halle Hopkins, co-authors of ‘What to Do When You Get Dumped.’ They discuss the inspiration behind their book, which addresses the emotional turmoil of heartbreak and the journey of healing. Suzy shares her personal experience of being unexpectedly left by her husband after 30 years of marriage, while Halle reflects on her own experiences with heartbreak. The conversation delves into the importance of allowing oneself to grieve, the power of illustrations in storytelling, and the significance of finding faith and understanding in the healing process. In this conversation, Hallie and her mother Suzy discuss the themes of healing, personal growth, and the importance of sharing one’s story. They explore the purpose behind Hallie’s book, which aims to provide encouragement and guidance for those navigating heartbreak. The discussion delves into the universal themes found in personal experiences, the journey of self-love, and the significance of support from unexpected sources. They also touch on generational perspectives on mental health and the importance of authenticity in relationships.

About Robert Biswas-Diener and Christian Van Nieuwerburgh

Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener is a researcher, author, and well-known executive coach. His studies have taken him to such far-flung places as Greenland, India, Kenya, and Israel where he has researched culture as it relates to wellbeing. In addition to happiness, he has researched strengths, hospitality, friendship, and leadership. Robert has authored more than 75 peer-reviewed academic articles and chapters and has a citation count of more than 27 thousand. Dr. Biswas-Diener has authored many books, including Positive Provocation (2023), the New York Times Best Seller, The Upside of Your Dark Side (2014), and the 2007 PROSE Award winner, Happiness.

As a consultant and trainer, Robert has presented in 30 nations. He has presented keynotes and workshops to Lululemon, Deloitte, Humana, Standard Chartered Bank, Australia Department of Defense, Queensland Police, Ruby Receptionists, AARP, Cellebrite, Financial Planners Association, Australian Council for Educational Leaders, Japanese Psychological Association, Kaiser Permanente, and the World Bank, among others.

In 2024, Thinkers50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world.

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Guest Resources

Book: RADICAL LISTENING: The Art of True Connection

Website: robertdiener.com

Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Radical Listening
02:12 The Importance of Listening in Diverse Cultures
05:05 The Birth of Radical Listening
07:45 Listening vs. Speaking: The Balance of Communication
10:23 Intentional Listening: The Key to Connection
14:27 Overcoming Barriers to Presence in Listening
17:18 Navigating Conversations: Setting Boundaries
19:19 The Dangers of Half Listening
23:19 Asking Probing Questions for Deeper Connection
28:16 Understanding Underlying Issues in Communication
30:20 Levels of Acknowledgement
32:22 Building Connections Through Radical Listening
34:32 The Challenge of Acceptance
36:46 Navigating Trauma and Listening
38:27 The Importance of Intention in Listening
40:41 Self-Care for Effective Listening
42:58 Understanding Listening Skills
43:44 The Ripple Effect of Radical Listening
47:40 Starting Your Journey in Radical Listening
51:20 Listening as an Act of Love

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Transcript:

Kimberly Snyder (00:00.76)
Hi everyone and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited for our very special conversation today. We have both co-authors on the show today for the wonderful new book, which I love, called Radical Listening, The Art of True Connection, which provides tools for creating stronger, more resilient relationships and navigating conflicts with empathy and mutual respect. This subject matter is something that the world really needs.

So our first co-author is Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener, and he is a researcher, an author, an executive coach. He has presented in over 30 nations. And in 2024, Thinker 50 recognized Robert as one of the 50 most influential executive coaches in the world. Thank you, Robert, for being here.

Robert Biswas-Diener (00:51.598)
Thank you so much for having me.

Kimberly Snyder (00:53.846)
And we are so blessed to have our second co-author here, Professor Christian von Neuwerberg, PhD. He’s a leading academic and executive coach as well with an international reputation. He has taught at, we’ll talk about this, universities in Ireland, in Australia. I love the international combination of both of you. He’s presented all around the world as well, from the US to the United Kingdom, Europe, New Zealand.

and the Middle East. Interesting. He’s also passionate about motorcycling. You would get along with my husband, Christian, writing and coaching. So welcome both of you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Christian (01:37.929)
Thank you so much. We’re really excited to be here and thanks so much for the work that you do Kim.

Kimberly Snyder (01:43.334)
thank you. So radical listening. What an amazing concept in a world where it seems like everybody’s focused on speaking and it seems that so much can fall through the cracks. Before we get into some of the concepts in your book, maybe you can share a little bit about why this subject matter is important to both of you. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of you have such international credentials.

part of your bio. I imagine that plays a part in listening when you’re going around the world in very different cultures. Yeah, so let’s start there.

Christian (02:20.841)
Thank you so much, Kimberly. Yeah, it’s so nice of you to make that connection. You know, one of the reasons we wrote the book was exactly what you said. We felt that talking about listening is more important now than it ever has been. But if I think back to where did I become interested in this? Well, you know, I have kind of an international background. My mother was Japanese. My father was Belgian.

I was born and brought up in Beirut, Lebanon. And I think one of the things that that really helped me with was I had this perspective that there’s lots of different ways of seeing anything. When my mom was bringing me up, she was really highlighting the importance of being respectful. In fact, being quiet, being invisible was kind of one of her messages. From the Western perspective of my father,

Kimberly Snyder (02:53.314)
Wow.

Kimberly Snyder (03:15.318)
Hmm.

Christian (03:20.145)
It was more like go and get stuff, know, go, need to be put yourself out there. And I was very lucky to have an American education. went to an American community school. went to an American university. So I think I’ve always had that curiosity about, there’s so many different ways to see things. But the other side of it is I’ve always been seen as the other wherever I am because of my mixed background.

I’m always not from that place. And if you’re not from that place, you’ve kind of got to be pretty alert. So I think part of my growing up was being highly alert, noticing things, listening. And I guess my question has always been, how can I fit in here? And in order to fit in, I have to listen very carefully to what’s going on around me. So thanks for noticing that, Kimberly. It’s so…

I feel seen already.

Kimberly Snyder (04:20.366)
Well, thank you so much for sharing that Christian. And I really relate to that because my mom comes from the Philippines and I grew up in a very completely actually all white community in Connecticut. So I was always the exotic one, the other one. And there was a lot of characteristics and things that came from that experience. And one of them I would also say is being really highly attuned.

to what’s going on, maybe even hypervigilant because I didn’t want to stand out. You don’t want to stand out when you’re five and four years old. So I really relate to that. Thank you so much. And Robert, and also can you guys share how you know each other too?

Robert Biswas-Diener (05:04.54)
Yeah, that’s actually a little bit what I wanted to talk about, which is, Christian and I have long been in each other’s orbits because we are in the same profession. We both are largely involved with positive psychology research. So our paths would cross at conferences, but our friendship and ability to collaborate really blossomed during sort of the height.

or the lowest point, depending how you look at it, of the pandemic. So like many people, March 2020 was a pretty rough time for us. A lot of our work was drying up. There was a lot of uncertainty at that time. And we decided that we would just connect via Zoom and we would just have these sort of one and two hour free flowing conversations. And yeah, just the two of us.

Kimberly Snyder (05:36.11)
Kimberly Snyder (05:57.154)
Just the two of you. Wow, two hours, I love it.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:02.52)
Yeah, and so we would just, know, like once a week, twice a week, we would just chat about whatever things we agreed on, things we didn’t agree on. You know, we had lots of, you know, kind of little intellectual arguments, lots of just sharing stories, lots of just, just free ranging conversation. And it was out of that, that the book Radical Listening was born. I think normally an author is sort of pregnant with an idea, you know, this is my

my research or this is what I’ve done for the last 20 years so I want to write about it. And I was not naturally a listener, I’m naturally a speaker, but it was the process of interacting with Christian and seeing how respectful he was, even in approaching disagreement and how our different styles that I’m a certain type of listener, I would say kind of a very engaged, jump in quick kind of listener and he’s kind of that,

Kimberly Snyder (06:46.189)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (06:59.642)
why it give you your full turn to talk listener. And just watching those two dynamics interact, I was like, think we might have something to say about this. think maybe we should be writing about this. And Christian kind of simultaneously had the idea and the book was born.

Kimberly Snyder (07:16.812)
Wow. So I love it when something comes so naturally and organically just births out of this true need that you both felt. And I see so many books nowadays around creating boundaries and like, have to express this. There’s a lot, you know, especially for women, like being clear, like boundaries. Can you share how listening on the other end of it would

radically, I mean to your title and also how you speak about here some of these benefits creating stronger relationships, being able to navigate conflicts, how the listening part is really needed and beneficial.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:03.484)
It’s a great question. I do think that assertiveness and boundaries are important. One of my worries is that this just becomes more labor for women if women then have to take on all the responsibility for setting boundaries and making sure they’re protected in terms of time and other things. One of the great things about listening is that it has relatively little cost.

It’s pretty easy to do, relatively little energy costs, mental costs, emotional costs. And one of the points that we make that I think makes our approach to listening a little different is that listening is motivated. It’s easy just to think about listening as if you’re just taking in sounds from the air and your job is to understand them.

Kimberly Snyder (08:46.849)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (08:54.938)
Like you’re just a giant radar dish. Like I’m just taking it in. And then my principal job is, I understand what you’re saying? That’s sort of the traditional active listening model. And that’s not wrong. I mean, there’s some good things to be gotten from that. But we think that listening is motivated and that you’re listening to accomplish something in a conversation. So in one conversation, you might want to listen in order to validate your friend.

Kimberly Snyder (08:57.069)
Yes.

Robert Biswas-Diener (09:22.2)
And in that mode, that validation mode of listening, you’re going to pay attention to certain types of things. You’re going to construe your role as listener in a certain way. And that’s very different than if you’re listening to mount a counter argument. You’re going to listen in a very different way for that. Or if you’re listening to solve a problem, you’re actually going to be listening for an entirely different set of information. So just kind of understanding what your mode is, I think can be empowering to people.

because it allows you to be more effective conversational.

Kimberly Snyder (09:58.102)
I like how you talk about, both of you write in the book about the intention to listen because sometimes our friends want to share their, or husband or spouse wants to share their suffering or what they’re going through. And if you’re just kind of like, uh-huh, and you’re doing something while you’re like listening or chiming in, you don’t get that intention across. It can feel very disconnected.

Christian (10:23.827)
You’re right, Kimberly. And by the way, you’re doing radical listening right now with us because as Robert was speaking, you were interjecting. There were little noises you made and you made tiny words. And that for us is an example of radical listening, right? So the typical active listening is you probably just go completely quiet.

And I would say active listening is mostly about looking like you’re listening. Whereas radical listening is being genuinely interested. And that enthusiasm comes up in laughter. I mean, you’ve been laughing, you’ve been really engaged with what we’re saying. So the interesting thing with radical listening is that it does apply in professional contexts, but also very much in personal contexts.

And I know this podcast is called Feel Good. And what we’re arguing is that in addition to simply understanding somebody, and we often think, yeah, I listen in order to understand, I listen in order to communicate. But we’re saying that every listening opportunity is an opportunity to build connection with the person you’re listening to. And how does that happen? Well, one of the ways it happens is when we match.

As listeners, we match what’s needed by the person we’re listening to. And for example, you were talking about like in a, in when we’re with friends, you know, the intention is I would like to listen to this person in a way that makes them feel seen, valued and heard. And if that’s my intention, then picking up what’s wanted by them. So sometimes a friend of mine might come along and say,

You know, I’ve had a really bad day in the office. It’s been a terrible day. And picking up whether do they want to be acknowledged for that? Is that all they want? Or are they actually looking for a solution? So what we argue, Kimberly, is that the matching is important. If I pick up what my, person I’m listening to wants, and I provide that, which is just acknowledgement, then there’s connection and the person feels good.

Christian (12:48.361)
But if we accidentally mismatch it, and instead of just listening, I’m jumping in with solutions because I think what they want is a solution, or I assume that they don’t want to be feeling down. And I’m like, come on, chin up, you’re gonna be great. In fact, the irony is, although my intention is to be helpful, because I haven’t really paid attention to what it is they want, and I haven’t been intentional.

about matching my listening to what they want, can ironically get in the way of that connection.

Kimberly Snyder (13:24.982)
Right. Well, it sounds like when I was reading the book, radical listening involves a level of being present, right? Because if we’re not really here, which is an issue for many people today, they’re half listening, they may be scrolling on their phone or they’re cooking dinner or doing whatever they’re doing. But this idea of being intentional and intuitive is really, you know,

You have to be there. So what would you say to someone listening to this that says, well, you know, I struggled to be present or I would love to share this book with my spouse, not our husband, not just, you know, stereotyping men, but sometimes there is that my husband does this as well, that jumping into, well, you should do this and this. And to your point, Christian, I don’t, didn’t want you to tell me what to do. I just wanted to share this challenge I had today.

So what do we do if someone’s already struggling to be present and improve their listening skills?

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:27.79)
Yeah, so there’s a few things in what you just said. One is if the speaker can make their intention clear, just articulate it, I just want to be heard. just, I don’t need a solution or please give me a solution. Then that can help the conversation align because it suggests a role for the listener. So that’s helpful right up front.

Kimberly Snyder (14:42.178)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (14:54.714)
And I think people can be, for the lack of a better word, trained to do that or train themselves to do that. So you’re just walking in saying, look, I just want to vent for five minutes. And I think that’s going to do it for me. not looking for a solution. The other thing is really to recognize, and I think first within ourselves, some of those common obstacles, those distractions to being present.

And the easiest one are sort of those external distractions. Your phone is calling your attention, the kids are pulling at you, the dog needs out, whatever the external environment provides. But there’s loads of internal ones as well. And I’ll just give a quick example of it. We call it time poverty. But I think of it as the sort of like the walk with me effect. So you’ve probably at some time in your life been with someone who was like,

Christian (15:41.961)
Hmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (15:46.076)
Okay, I’d love to listen to you, Kimberly. I’ve got five minutes. I got another appointment. Walk with me. And you’re supposed to walk with them to their next appointment and tell you whatever you need to tell them en route. And that’s already a lack of presence because they’re eventually communicating to you. I’m already thinking about what’s coming next. You have divided attention at best. You’re not my priority. I’m trying to multitask. And an alternative to that would be

Kimberly Snyder (16:00.949)
Right.

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:15.63)
you can have four minutes of my undivided attention. I’ll stop here, I’ll turn to you, lay it on me. You are my priority. And then I’m gonna go to something else. And if it’s gonna take more than four minutes, we should probably not do it now. And we should probably find a time that gives it the time that it deserves.

Kimberly Snyder (16:35.214)
Well, let me ask you guys a question. We have these community Zooms. Sometimes there’s hundreds of people, 500 people. And at the end, I’ll say, does anyone, you can raise your hand. Does anyone want to ask a question or speak or share? Please keep it brief. Right? So I say that, but then people come on and they’re telling these heartfelt stories. And sometimes it just goes on and on. So what if this is your friend or this situation?

Robert Biswas-Diener (16:38.236)
you

Kimberly Snyder (17:03.874)
And you’ve already set that boundary. can actively, radically listen, but then people don’t follow that. How can you, you know, be compassionate, but actually, you know, hold to the boundaries you want? Yeah.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:18.684)
Yeah, think there’s a few things you can do. And I’m sure we’ll talk about this several times, but interrupting is one of them. And interrupting, I know when I say that word, it just sounds rude. But if you want to call it interjecting, or you want to call it jumping in, there are many times conversationally where jumping in is actually very beneficial to both parties.

Kimberly Snyder (17:36.127)
It does.

Robert Biswas-Diener (17:47.694)
And many times that it’s not even considered rude. So anytime you’re speaking simultaneously, that’s an interruption. So if I’m speaking and you say, mm-hmm, that’s an interruption. It’s just a very small one. So we don’t think it’s that rude. So sometimes when your friend is going on and on and telling, if you jump in and you just say, my gosh, that’s so awful.

that sort of brings them to a halt, but they don’t consider that all that rude because you’re acknowledging them when you do it. Or the same thing, you can interrupt with a question that sort of steers the conversation a little bit. Like, my gosh, Kimberly, you mind if I jump in right there? You just said something so important. I wonder what you take away from that. And those…

Kimberly Snyder (18:40.854)
Mmm.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:42.588)
kinds of interjections are typically not even recognized as an interruption even though they technically are.

Christian (18:50.271)
Kimberly, can I jump in interject here because you said a little phrase earlier that really kind of highlights something I want to share with your listeners, which is this idea of half listening. You said sometimes you’re kind of half listening. And, you know, for me, the ideal is listening to someone is giving them your full attention for a certain amount of time. Then after that comes not listening at all.

Robert Biswas-Diener (18:52.038)
Thanks.

Kimberly Snyder (19:07.565)
Right.

Christian (19:19.997)
And I would say the worst is half listening. And what I mean by that is half listening is really confusing for the person because it’s almost like there’s been an offer made of listening, but you’re not actually listening. So it’s very confusing. And I want to give a real example. And, you know, there was a time in my life when I was actually running courses on active listening. So I’d be delivering courses about active listening. And there was one day, it was a long day.

Kimberly Snyder (19:23.47)
Mm.

Christian (19:50.655)
I come home after a long day, I’m tired. I should have probably gone for a little walk in the park or something, but no, I went straight home because I’m tired. go in, I’ve still got like 200 emails and I need to get back early tomorrow. My son just pops in straight after me, like 10 minutes after me. And I half listened to Kimberly because I said to him, I think he was like 10 years old. And I said, Hey, how was your day at school? And.

Kimberly Snyder (20:09.56)
No.

Christian (20:20.231)
You see the half listening, because I’m not really intending to listen, but I just said that my mind is elsewhere. I’m already onto, I need to get onto my emails. Otherwise I’ll never get through all of this. And then he said, well, actually I fell down. I cut my knee and whatever in sports. And I said, good. I’m glad you had a good day on. And this actually happened. And I had to take a minute, Kimberly, because I thought, wait a minute.

Kimberly Snyder (20:40.718)
Christian (20:48.287)
I’m working with professionals around listening. And I thought, here’s the most important person in my life, literally. And I’m not doing it. I’m not doing it. And I did make a promise then. And this is something for everyone, I think, is that our idea of radical listening, it might be radical, but it’s also simple. And the idea is to use listening as a way of showing people that you value and appreciate.

Kimberly Snyder (20:57.665)
Hmm

Kimberly Snyder (21:17.879)
Yes.

Christian (21:17.981)
and just thinking about all the different ways we can do that. And like Robert mentioned, that that’s how we started having these conversations. But I’ll give you an example of how Robert is a great listener. We’d get onto a Zoom call, right? So it’s a Zoom call. And he’d say, right at the beginning, he’d say, let me just get my cat either out of the room or in the room. He’d take time to turn off his mobile phone. But you know what that was saying to me?

is I’m getting rid of all these distractions because what you have to say is important. So I think we can all think about what are the messages we’re giving to people. And the moment I say, look, I haven’t really got time for this or, you know, I’m sending this email, talk to me while I’m sending it, my message is actually, I don’t have time for you. You’re not that valuable. So anything we can do. you know, questions is one of our skills, Kimberly.

Kimberly Snyder (21:51.277)
Mm.

Christian (22:14.649)
So you know that trip home from school. don’t know if some of your listeners will know what I’m talking about, especially if you have a teenager and you’re like, how was school? It’s like, if you get a grant out of them, you’re loving it, right? But maybe ask a different question. You know, like, what was the best part of school today? What was the thing you most enjoyed? So maybe change the question so that it’s more engaging.

and maybe also be okay with silence because sometimes we get frustrated and we keep asking, why don’t you talk to me? Why aren’t you saying anything? So just that being comfortable with them and creating the space which is, look, I’m here to listen to you. And if you want to share something with me, I’m gonna be sitting here quietly. And if you’re not ready yet, that’s okay. So just creating the space for, this is space for you to share something with me.

Kimberly Snyder (22:50.478)
What?

Kimberly S

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