How To Show Up for Others when You Feel Like You Can’t with Natalie Kuhn [Episode #853]

This week’s topic is: How To Show Up for Others when You Feel Like You Can’t with Natalie Kuhn

I am so excited to have my very special guest, Natalie Kuhn, who is Co-CEO and a founding Teacher of The Class, a global digital wellness company whose signature method combines fitness and mindfulness to strengthen the body and befriend the mind. Listen in as Natalie shares how to overcome self-consciousness, self-doubt and comparison, moving through difficulties while not losing yourself, keeping your boundaries, and so much more.

TOPICS COVERED

• Showing up for others when you’re not feeling energetic…
• Overcoming self-consciousness and self-doubt…
• Getting past comparison…
• Working through judgment and judging others…
• Moving through difficulties and how to not lose yourself and keep your boundaries…
• How having a community and sisterhood can support you through trials of life…
• What ‘unfolding versus pushing your way through life’ looks like…

[FEATURED GUESTS]

About Natalie Kuhn

Natalie is Co-CEO and a founding Teacher of The Class, a global digital wellness company whose signature method combines fitness and mindfulness to strengthen the body and befriend the mind. As the first employee of The Class, she has helped grow the method and business from a two-woman team operating out of the founder’s apartment to what it is today, with studios in New York and Los Angeles and a digital platform that brings mindfulness practices to students in 71 countries across the globe.

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Other Podcasts you may enjoy!:

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Transcript:

Note: The following is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate. This is due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Kimberly: 00:00 Namaste loves and welcome back to our Monday interview show. I am so excited to have on the show today Natalie Kuhn, who is the co CEO and founding teacher of the class, which is an amazing global signature fitness method, which is about the body, but also befriending the mind. Natalie is also a powerhouse. I met her recently on a wanderlust retreat where we were both teaching, and she to me, embodies a great strength and as we’ll get into in her show, and she shares very openly. She is partnered with her fiance who has stage four cancer, and so we share about how we can show up in our lives with great challenge and be able to navigate and flow and feel authentic and strong and be there for ourselves as well as others. So I’m very excited to get into our show today in this conversation.

01:06 Before we do, a little reminder that the show notes for this show are going to be posted on my sauna.com, our hub, our central website, M-Y-S-O-L-L-U-N a.com. We will also have links to other podcasts. I think you would enjoy articles, meditations, hundreds, thousands, maybe of plant-based recipes and our amazing digestion focused supplements. Everything you need to support you in living a holistic lifestyle in harmony with the power of nature, which is what sauna is all about. So please be sure to check that out over on our site. Alright, all that being said, let’s get right into our show today with a wonderful strong Natalie Kuhn.

Interview with Natalie Kuhn

Kimberly: 00:00 All right, here we are in the Cozy Office basement. I’m so glad you’re here right now. Natalie,

Natalie: 00:06 Kimberly, I’m so pumped to be here. I love you, girl. I can’t wait. This

Kimberly: 00:11 Is amazing. We met a few weeks ago when we were both doing the wanderlust event and it was just soul friendship, instantaneous

Natalie: 00:18 Connection.

Kimberly: 00:20 There was a passing moment, like a breakfast we met and then we had this dinner, or we just went right in and I’m like, Natalie, do you want kids? Natalie, what is your life about

Natalie: 00:33 Straight up? What is the one true faith? What has just the big questions? Let’s go.

Kimberly: 00:38 And then you know what it is quite striking about you is also your voice. You have a great podcast voice. You’re coming from this deep, not just from an auditory, but from a soulful place when some people have more of a lighter or surface voice. Thank

Natalie: 00:58 You.

Kimberly: 00:58 But I can feel that soul in there. Oh

Natalie: 01:01 Man, I appreciate that coming from a beam of light, that is you. It’s very, very meaningful. So I’m so grateful to be here with you. I’m just grateful to know you and then to be in conversation. Come on,

Kimberly: 01:18 Come on. This is amazing this way.

Natalie: 01:21 Christmas came early. I

Kimberly: 01:23 Love it. Well, this is part of, I think just the gift of connection and why we’re here. We get to share, we get to talk, we get to support each other, and all these amazing beauties and incredible souls that are listening now, we’re just in this amazing time in this community, and we have this amazing technology where we can really feel that closeness

Natalie: 01:44 Together. This is what it’s about, especially as the world continues to have such divisiveness and separateness to find people, sisters, relationships that remind us of connectedness, that remind us of togetherness, that remind us that we are not actually that separate and we can make our way back and we can find bridges and we can find commonalities and celebrate differences. And so it’s really, really a joy to be here.

Kimberly: 02:13 Some years ago I mentioned that I had interviewed Taryn to me on the show. We’ll link to that in the podcast, who was a member of the Well and Good Wellness Council. And I had heard about the class and I had to be fully honest, I haven’t done it. I moved out of New York. I know there’s studios here.

Natalie: 02:32 How dare you. I’m taking it personally.

Kimberly: 02:35 I had just heard the most amazing things about how it’s not a workout class, but this sort of experience of soulfulness and feeling this in touch with this primal, this rawness. So it was amazing to have that conversation with Taryn, and I just could feel it in her voice too. Here’s a real soulful woman, and then I met you and I know you’re a co-founding teacher and co CEO of the class. And so that, can you explain a little bit about how it’s different and like you said, in this day and age, there’s all kinds of workouts and there’s all kinds of fitness routines, but this feels very different.

What makes the Class different?

Natalie: 03:19 Yeah, the class is a workout that combines fitness and mindfulness, and I think only now is mindfulness in our lexicon. But 10 years ago when Taryn first started this, and I was her first employee, which is so wild, 10 years ago, that word was not even being bandied about. It was far off on the horizon, but now people recognize that. So when I say fitness combined with mindfulness, what I mean is that you’re not doing squats and jumping jacks for some utopic idea of cultural perfection that actually is wrapped in toxicity

Kimberly: 03:59 And surface, just like here’s looks. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to look good. Yes, and that’s part of it, but

Natalie: 04:07 We’re not all of it. The workout is not there to be in service of a cultural ideal. The workout is actually, the strength in your body is a byproduct. What you’re really doing there is to work out any aspect of your being. If you want to take a look at your thoughts, your behaviors, your emotions, what’s coming up for you, what’s alive in your body at that time, whether that, because we always say things like what’s on your mind, what’s on your heart? And that’s really what the class is doing. It’s using different, very accessible, repeated movement in order for you to be able to observe what comes up. And what comes up is generally what has been alive for you for some time. So it’s there for you if you need to release something emotionally, if it’s there, if you have a question that you’re pondering that you want to connect to your spirit around that you want some answers to, it’s there as a moving meditation and the byproduct is you strengthen the physical.

Kimberly: 05:19 So what I’ve seen, the clips, what I’ve seen is this energy, and I think a lot of it, from what I understand, I’m not an expert, comes down to you, Natalie, in that moment leading. So you’re this almost like this, I want to say a shaman esque sort of female warrior helping this to come forward. And I heard your voice, then I met you in person, and then I said, I’m really interested in how this came about and how you can bring that energy on days. We all have ups and downs when you don’t feel like being energetic, but then you’re there. All these people, all these women, all these people are showing up for you. So there’s this reaching down into this place and saying, I got to show up.

How to show up for others when you may not be feeling energetic

Natalie: 06:12 It’s amazing. We’re really there for each other. I don’t know that they’re there for me. I really think that it’s a co-creation, and that’s something that I say all the time that the class doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It happens because of an in community, and community is at the center of everything that we do. The idea long ago when this was just a twinkle in taryn’s eye, so to speak, it actually is based in ceremony where the idea is don’t talk to your neighbor, don’t touch your neighbor, but you’re supported by being in community with your neighbor. So you’re going into your own journey. You can make that 60 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever it is that you need for you, but you’re surrounded by other people who are in the practice and in the frequency and in the vibration too. So often I’ll come in with maybe an idea of what I want to explore, a teaching, a quote, something that we can latch onto in the beginning like a dharma.

07:15 But more often than not, as the class gets going, we are feeling each other. The music is playing, the breath is happening, and a journey has begun. And that journey is really one that is braiding with the energy that’s in the room with the digital energy. Because music, we’re in 71 countries, so anytime you take a live stream or an on-demand, you’re really being joined by a global community. It’s like a global room studio. And so you can feel those energies and that journey begins to change and shapeshift based on where we are that day, based on what you’re bringing in, what we’re calling in. And ultimately one of the greatest things that I ever heard about the class and its name is that it’s more like the way a painting is untitled. So you’re placing onto the painting whatever is true for you, however you’re reading it. So you take that movement, you take that music, you take that experience, and you let it be for you.

Kimberly: 08:20 Part of that is being vulnerable, and part of it is overcoming self-consciousness. So class and beyond in your life, Natalie, to be able to show up in this freeway. We were speaking at Wanderlust when we were even speaking in front a group of people. Were you always confident? Were you shy growing up? How did you overcome the voice of self-doubt or just being able to show yourself? What was that journey like for you? I

Overcoming self-consciousness and self-doubt

Natalie: 08:54 Was pretty, you know what it was? I grew up in a house where my dad was always working. He was working to put us through school. He was working to, he just was incredibly dedicated to being a provider for the kids. And so that meant that we didn’t quite see him a lot, and we really were raised a lot by our mom who had a very high sensitivity to pain. She could get migraines very easily. And so there was a sense in our household of needing to temper our are big emotions and big humanity. So it led me to theater. And in theater I could put on a costume and I felt like receiving

Kimberly: 09:42 A theater horse, the projection of the voice. Wait, so when you get that back, well, was it you and how many siblings? I have

Natalie: 09:50 Two siblings. They’re older, nine and 11 years older than me, and they took, my sister is a therapist, she’s a Jungian analyst to be specific. And my brother went into tech. But for me, I felt so safe and so excited by and inspired when I could put on a costume, and that’s where I felt my confidence, and that’s where I felt my creativity because I felt safe in the expression

Kimberly: 10:15 Of it was you were something else. You were a character.

Natalie: 10:18 So I could have my full range of rage or fear or joy or love. Then as I got older, and especially when the class came into my life, I realized that I didn’t need a costume anymore, and I could sort of remove that layer that stood between me and my full expression and my full humanity, and now I feel more confident just saying, yeah, I’m a big energy. And I think I felt like I had to apologize for that unless I was wearing a costume, unless I was in a particular container or space, and now I don’t feel that way. And

Kimberly: 10:58 Well, that was your whole childhood. You were theater. That’s the

Natalie: 11:01 Journey. And now being through these teachings and really being a dedicated student and stepping into the role of teacher and also in leadership in business, now, I feel more of a facility bringing my full self to a lot of different situations and rooms and containers. And that honestly took time.

Kimberly: 11:27 Part of my career was working with a lot of performers, and it sounds easy to say, oh, well, here’s my role. I’m in a movie, I’m in theater, and then I could just be me. But in my experience working with many different types of entertainers, I’ve seen a big struggle and the real insecurity coming when it’s like, oh, but this is hidden behind the role, behind the mask, behind this image, this public persona. So you glossed over that part a little bit, my love. You say, oh, this was there, this ripping away. Was there this raw wound part of you when you were like, oh, now I’m me, I’m Natalie. I’m getting front. I’m teaching these classes. I’m leading. Yeah,

Natalie: 12:17 Stepping in without the, I think there’s always an oscillation between that core human wound of not enoughness, and however that manifests itself, meeting some way that our enoughness is trying to find its way through. And so for me, the not enoughness was showing up like, oh, am I good enough in this role? Am I good enough in my leadership position? Am I good enough in my family dynamics? But then it was always, I find that the spirit and the ego are always in a dance, the ego that wants to separate and fight for power and compare and justify its identification with parts of ourselves and looking for validation elsewhere in the external world. And then there’s our soul that’s always trying to find the cracks to say, here’s your vocation. Here’s where creativity seeps out of you. Here’s where belonging is calling you forward. And I think that dance was alive for me in theater.

13:22 That dance is alive for me in leadership. It’s alive for me in my relationship as a long-term partner. And I think that especially for those of us who are dedicated to being a student of the teachings and the spiritual path, I think we’re always looking for the tools that bring us back to the soul, to the spirit that bring us out of our periphery. And by periphery, I mean the parts of the mind, the parts of the ego that feast on the not, and how do we come back? How do we come back? How do we come back to center when we’re feeling the shake?

Kimberly: 14:00 Yeah, I mean, that’s the life journey. Teachers should always be students, right? Always here we’re learning. We’re sharing what works, and it is that journey. What are we identifying with it’s moment to moment? The patterns can be really strong. And I’ve given you a copy of the last book, Natalie, thank you

Natalie: 14:20 So much

Kimberly: 14:21 About the true self and Yogananda, which you see all around the office, which was so impactful for me to even hear about this concept of the true self when I was backpacking in India, because growing up I can really talk about that. It’s like, oh, there’s this voice. And we often identify with it. It’s like, oh, and not the thoughts. The thoughts actually come from this limited place. So anyways, as we step forward, and it’s just so amazing when we are around in those moments where we can really be authentic and just relax into that. I think that’s one of the reasons you and I were drawn together where I think we could be really real and present and there’s no pretense. And then other people can relax more around that too, because we’ve all been in environments where people are really buttoned up or really about the image.

Natalie: 15:15 I mean, now I’m asking you a question. I’m just going to reverse podcast here, but

Kimberly: 15:19 Ask me anything.

Natalie: 15:20 Always when you’re around people that maybe don’t make you feel that comfortable or when you’re in a gathering where you maybe feel like a fish out of water, what’s something that you do or lean on? Is it a mantra? What teaching do you fall back on in order to get back to yourself?

We share tools on what we do when we feel like a fish out of water

Kimberly: 15:39 For me, and this is really the subject of the whole next book, it’s about deeper embodiment for me. So it’s not just a mantra or telling my mind something. It’s really everything, the body coming into this moment of alignment with that wholeness. And for me, that juncture point is the heart. So now I just literally, and this is our whole heart aligned meditation that we did a study with recently, which we’re putting the tracks on the website, and there’s a lot of information in the next book about this. I just go into my heart, literally the physical heart and the energetic heart, and I just take some breaths and I just connect to this place because it’s easy in those environments to feel like you said, a fish out of water or This is weird, or I don’t like this. And I used to feel that way quite a bit, to be honest. I used to question, why am I working in Hollywood? Because I never had a TV yet. I still to this day don’t watch shows or movies. I’m not drawn to the lights.

Natalie: 16:38 I notice there’s no TV in

Kimberly: 16:40 Your living room, nothing. I don’t

Natalie: 16:41 Watch any.

Kimberly: 16:42 My husband will watch on his phone. It’s funny in bad. He has fat bones. I’ll be next to him meditating or reading. It’s just not something I’ve ever been drawn to. So I’ve been in a lot of red carpet situations and parties and I’m like, why am I here? But instead of the spirit puts us where we’re meant to go. Yeah,

Natalie: 17:01 I believe

Kimberly: 17:01 That. So now I just go in and it’s so beautiful because we are right around solstice, which is what these teachings are about, the darkening light, because I think that darkness, like we said, so much of our mind, the comparison, looking out, the questioning, looking at other people are saying and doing. So as that gets darkened, we’re pushed inside. And where are we pushed into the true self? So there’s the third eye, there’s the heart one opens both our vision of ourselves opens more clearly with the heart. The heart opens, we can see the more, more heart opens. So then it’s like we’re safe no matter where we are. And then from that place, I think we can always find a connection point. Even if someone has a very different life outlook and someone has a different value system, we’re still connected.

Natalie: 17:50 Staying in that curiosity, what’s happening

Kimberly: 17:52 There, staying in the heart. The mind is like, oh, different, separate judgy, that person’s shallow or that person’s dumb, or whatever we want to say versus this is, and especially this holiday season, we could say that real Christ consciousness, that unconditional love energy of underneath all the surface differences, we are one. We are of the higher intelligence. We are connected. And so the heart shows that. So it’s not that I retreat like I’m hiding, but it’s a place where I feel that

Natalie: 18:30 Centering

Kimberly: 18:30 Coherence that centeredness, and listen, I’m human. So sometimes, and also, let’s be honest here, there’s people we’re drawn to more than others, and I think that discernment is also really important. The yogis have always said Yogananda, besides meditation, the most important influence on our energy is right environment. And that very much includes who our friendships are, who we surround ourselves with. So I am very discerning, and you came up here and you’re like, oh, you never leave. And it’s right. We don’t leave. We call people in. I wouldn’t leave. So I don’t really like big crowds anymore. I don’t put myself in, I don’t go to a lot of music festivals anymore or anything like that because I am more discerning. How about you with crowds with groups? Well, you’re teaching group classes a lot, but in your personal social

Natalie: 19:28 Time? In my own way, yeah. I am an extrovert, so I do get inspired and energized. And it does also depend on environment and a different way. I think for me, when I feel like a fish out of water when I’m in a big crowd, that maybe isn’t my right alignment. The thing that I’ll check in on first is the state of my breath. And I just ask myself, are you holding your breath? Is your breath belabored or is it free? And if it’s not free, that’s generally an indication that my nervous system is responding to something and I might be in close to a reactive state

Kimberly: 20:14 Or judgment or something’s coming in separation.

Natalie: 20:17 I’m closing in on myself, so I’ll check in. And often that looks like you connect to your heart, I connect with my navel and I go, is my navel tight and tau? Can I take a deeper breath? Am I holding my belly? Am I holding my hips? Am I holding my breath? And then I try to pair that with a mantra that helps me, especially in social environments, which is I don’t need anything from anyone here. And a more positive spin on that is I have everything I need. Because I think sometimes we get in these dynamics where I think culturally we’re kind of taught to look around and who’s got something for me? Who’s going to help me? Who’s going to, especially

Kimberly: 21:05 In

Natalie: 21:05 La especially in la, and I just moved here from 20 years in New York, and everyone’s trying to climb some kind of ladder. Well, they’re

Kimberly: 21:13 Talking to you, but they’re actually looking around, can’t

Natalie: 21:15 Stand it.

Kimberly: 21:15 Who else can I be talking to? Oh,

Natalie: 21:17 Good Lord, what a way to belittle an experience. And it is that really what we want to be doing, is that really the energy that we want to be sharing? And the answer is no. So it’s like even when somebody’s doing that to me, I’ll notice and I’ll smile and I’ll recognize myself in that person. I’ve been that person before, and I’ll either give them my full presence or I will end that conversation and turn my full presence elsewhere. But it really does come down to if I don’t need anything from anyone here, I’m free to enjoy this.

Kimberly: 21:58 I love that.

Natalie: 21:58 And it opens up my energy. It opens up the experience to be what it wants to be rather than maybe what I’m trying to make

Kimberly: 22:10 It into

Natalie: 22:11 Or force it.

Kimberly: 22:13 What are some of the tendencies you notice, the darkness, the dark parts of all of us is there, or you turn it on yourself and you feel like, oh, insecurity, or is it judgment that gets projected out, or what would you say? Some of

Getting past comparison

Natalie: 22:31 My stuff is definitely insecurity. And I think I grew up, I always wore uniforms in school, so I never really style or clothing. That’s never been a strong suit. It’s never been real, just an interest.

22:52 But that is how people kind of jockey into position with each other. It’s the first thing women say to each other, you’re so cute. Or look at what you’re wearing. It’s kind of a way that women have been conditioned to connect first. Interesting. So sometimes I’ll go into a social situation and that will be one of those little insecurities like, oh, I’m not cool enough, or I don’t have, oh, she’s so beautiful, or I don’t, and I’ll go small in the comparison. And I’ve really had to do a lot of work on myself to my grandma. My grandmother had such a wonderful saying. She would say, look, spend all the time you need in the mirror before you leave the house. Once you leave the house, don’t look again.

Kimberly: 23:39 I love that

Natalie: 23:39 Let that go. So now I’ll do that and I’ll be like, how do I feel adorned? How do I adorn myself? There’s a book called The Body Is Not an Apology, it’s by Sonia Renee Taylor. The title says it all. In many ways, we have learned that we either need to be small or fit in or belong in a very tight box. And the body is not an apology as a way of saying, if you’re going to wear the lipstick, wear it because you want to adorn yourself, not because it’s coming from a place of not enoughness, and how do you make that shift? So now I’m like, I’m going to put on that red lip and I’m going to get out there and let myself, but once I hit that room, that place, that space, I’m going to forget about it and just place my feet where they are, open up my heart, let go of my belly and get curious about the people around me rather than concentrate on all the different ways that I want to cave in on myself.

Kimberly: 24:41 Interesting. Because again, this dynamic with women I think is really interesting where we think we look at, well, maybe I don’t add up or cave in on yourself, versus especially in this culture, there’s tendency to judge other women and say, well, you’re dressing too provocatively, or That’s not appropriate. We’re kind of projecting out, but your tendency is more in here to cave

Natalie: 25:07 In. Wow.

Kimberly: 25:08 And I

Natalie: 25:08 Think that’s Where did we,

Kimberly: 25:12 So you don’t judge other, you don’t pay attention more. So more how do I stack up?

Natalie: 25:19 Yeah. My tendency is more to kind of self lacerate, but I know that everybody’s relationship to that is so unique to their upbringing and their dynamics and childhood and

Kimberly: 25:32 What they were exposed to.

Natalie: 25:34 And

Kimberly: 25:34 Because kind of the opposite, is

Natalie: 25:36 It the opposite?

Kimberly: 25:37 Well, my family really valued academics. So my mom came over as a scholar, she got a scholarship. So the way that I got love or felt love was being number one in my class, having perfect grades. So I never wanted any attention for looks. People were like, oh, you’re pretty, or this and that. I’m like, no, I’m the smart one. So it was more like, and I’ve noticed this and worked on it, but if I see women kind of just showing their bodies in the past, I would say, don’t you want to be seen for more than your body? You want to be seen for your intelligence. Interesting. And there’s a bit of judgment in there because some women want to dress how they want to dress, but for me, it was sort of that projected out of my own value system for being smart was the way,

Working through judgment and judging others

Natalie: 26:29 Right. I think what’s interesting about all the ways in which we grow up as kids, we don’t know that there’s another way.

Kimberly: 26:42 Yeah. It’s our whole life perspective

Natalie: 26:45 That is what we think the rest of the world is

Kimberly: 26:49 Until, and other people are thinking the same thing as us. So we think other people are judging us or looking down on your outfit when they aren’t,

Natalie: 26:56 Everybody’s actually thinking about themselves. No,

Kimberly: 27:00 Everybody’s cosmic joke. Everybody’s in their own reality.

Natalie: 27:04 And this is also something I try to remind myself when I feel discomfort in social situations of what story am I playing out here? And how if the truth is everybody is a little bit nervous or everybody is working in insecurity in themselves in some way because it’s human, then I can actually tap into a love like, oh, how sweet. We’re all just trying to belong here. We’re all really just trying to belong. And if that’s the truth, then wow, I might just love you for who you are. And I just love yourself. I love me for wanting to find that kind of sense of togetherness.

Kimberly: 27:58 So I love the Bava Gita, which is very much about this, that we’re all fighting this great battle, which is happening right here, and it’s all an allegory for the battle of life. Arjuna gets the choice of the biggest army in the world, or the Council of Krishna chooses Krishna. And it’s how we’re dealing with all these sensory comparisons and we’re getting pulled out of the true self. We’re getting pulled into ego, and as a result, suffering and feeling weak and feeling not enough in all these different ways. And so the whole journey is that we don’t need anything outside of ourselves and we are enough. And that’s the whole funny thing is whether it’s with the clothes or with the relationships or with enough stuff or the money or whatever it is, we can have all those things, but that’s not it.

Natalie: 28:46 That’s not, it’s

Kimberly: 28:47 Here. It’s already inside of us, and it is this crazy battle that rages every day for all of us and all the different ways it plays out. So like you were saying, to be compassionate, to be connected, to not judge ourselves or others.

What happens when you practice awareness

Natalie: 29:04 And I think that first moment, that first step is just noticing, just awareness first and foremost is plenty. The awareness that I’m in a moment of separation. I’m in a moment of feeling disconnected. I’m in a moment of judgment. And to not judge that, because often, especially once you start in these practices of awareness, you then judge what you see. So it’s just judgment on judgment, like a snake eating itself. But just to purely have a moment where it’s like pause, checking in. Got it. That’s where I’m at. And then that second moment to love what it is you find, and that I think is tough. I think it takes time and practice and also profound relaxation.

Kimberly: 30:02 Yes. For me, I would say it’s noticing and saying, oh, there’s my mind. There’s a narrative, there’s a story. Instead of saying, I identify with that, like I said, I come back to the heart, turn off the thoughts, come back into the body, come back into the heart. Oh, this feels good. I don’t need those thoughts. It’s kind of like Byron Katie‘s work really questioning the thoughts and saying, where would I be without this thought? And so then there’s this moment where we can break that pattern, and it does get easier over time. But it’s that awareness, like you said.

Natalie: 30:37 Yeah, and this is exactly what we are practicing at the class, because when you step into, let’s just call it a jumping jack, and you’ve now done it for 30 seconds, all the jumping Jack is doing is mimicking a moment of challenge in the rest of your life. It’s just creating the container of challenge. So if the jumping jack is happening, and now all of a sudden you’re saying, when is this going to be over? She’s doing it better than I am. I want to take a break. These are all just themes that come up in any moment that we are in challenge, whether it’s the boardroom or the bedroom. So the class is really giving you a container to observe yourself. And in that observation, you learn something and then you take that learning and into where it really does show up. And for us, we’ve just been talking about the social gathering, but who knows? It could be the moment when you’re in a fight with your lover or your kids are out of control. But as long as you have some dedicated time in practice, then you can apply what you discovered there, the new behavior, the new observation, the new pattern shift. Take it off the mat.

Kimberly: 31:53 Take it off the mat. I love it. I love it. It’s bringing such depth to movement and being with yourself and being with your body and being here.

Natalie: 32:05 Yeah. It’s also that my whole family is very based in talk therapy. My sister is a Jungian analyst, very

Kimberly: 32:11 Linear mind, and I

Natalie: 32:13 Was in talk therapy for a very long time. There’s a lot of benefits that I got from it. But what I realized was that when my body is warm, when my body is hot, when I’m using my body in an embodiment, somatic practice, like the class, but it doesn’t have to be the class. It could be yoga, qigong, exciting dance, all these different things, Tai Chi, the body is hearing, listening, changing, reshaping, transforming in that connection with the mind, in that connection with the spirit. And so for me, the class has been a lot more efficient than talk therapy because of the nature of the body being open.

Kimberly: 32:53 And that’s in a similar vein. My practice is with the heart because if it’s just a positive thought, it’s here. I keep saying linear, it’s surface. It’s not all the way down. Yeah,

Natalie: 33:03 It’s intellectualizing it.

Kimberly: 33:04 Yes. But the heart is this. It changes the brain. It changes your physiology. It changes the way your nervous system is functioning. It creates more of that sort of going into the sympathetic, more of the parasympathetic, where you feel that safe and centeredness, which changes your perception. Now you’re not just coming from the reactions of the amygdala, but you’re coming from this different, wider, see more solutions, see more compassion place. So I think getting the body involved is talk about we’re having an embodied experience with these beings of light, but we’re here in the body. And so the body has to come online to be in that full expression, I believe. So it’s really powerful.

Natalie: 33:48 I couldn’t agree more. And I think one of the things that I find fascinating is that the body doesn’t know or can’t distinguish or doesn’t discern whether that thought is true. It’s true. So if you’re lying in bed and in your mind, tomorrow’s going to suck. I’m so stressed out, I’ve got this big meeting, it’s not going to go, well, of course you’re not going to fall asleep. The body is like, okay, we’re not okay. We’re not okay. And so the body is responding to the texture, the tone, the charge of the thought, and then it’s responding back with the feeling in the heart, and it is in this infinity loop until consciousness comes online, until awareness steps in, to interrupt the pattern and take a deep breath and slow the nervous system so that the mind and the body can get in sync. This is not an emergency. This is not an emergency.

Kimberly: 34:54 Well, in Ayurvedic medicine, when we talk about nourishment and being aware of what you’re taking in, it is not just food. You said, watching the news, taking in the imagery of everything, the violence, the wars, just being conscious of how much we are consuming environmentally, the language that people around us use. It’s all being digested by us, the body and our being is taking everything in. So I just think it’s so important to be aware of that. And then relationships. Let’s shift to that for a moment. I love how you said in the class, it brings up what’s really going on. For me, one of the biggest mirrors in my whole life has been my husband. There’s no hiding. When you are in a really close relationship, conscious relationship, we just did a podcast about this, meaning awareness. He sees things I don’t see in myself, he points them out.

35:56 I can’t hide. The love is so strong in the past. You can be like, well, maybe this isn’t my person, or I’m just going to go away now I don’t like you, or whatever. The love is so strong. It’s forced that seeing the darkness, the tendencies, and there’s nowhere to go. So I have worked on myself. He has worked on his traumas, we’ve worked on our communication. It’s made me a better person. Natalie, funny. First of all, tell us a bit about your relationship. And I was with Kevin in Mexico. I was with you guys. I also met Kevin briefly in New York a million years ago. We’re all so connected. Wow, I didn’t

Natalie shares about her relationship with her fiance

Natalie: 36:41 Know

Kimberly: 36:41 That. That’s amazing. Yes. Ula circa, of course, right? 2012, 2013. Best.

Natalie: 36:47 That’s the best.

Kimberly: 36:48 10 years ago.

Natalie: 36:49 Wow. We probably have been in the same rooms. Yeah, maybe. I bet you practice together Sunday night at Kula. Yeah.

Kimberly: 36:56 Yeah. How long ago you’ve been with Kevin? I’ve been

Natalie: 36:58 With Kevin. Well, so we’ve known each other for 10 years. We started as colleagues and then as friends, and then as confidants. And then in 2019, we became lovers, and now we’re fiance, we’re engaged. And what I shared with you in Mexico, and part of what we talked about bringing up here is that we’ve had one hell of a year. We all pandemic. So we pandemic together. We got engaged just after the pandemic, and then right around after our engagement, his health started to decline in ways that were both noticeable but also imperceptible. Sometimes you’re so close to, you wake up every day with your partner, and there are certain things that you start to see, huh? Yeah, he does seem a bit pale, or he has lost weight. But then there’s other things that go more. They’re harder to see because you’re so close to in him. And what ended up happening was in May, he was diagnosed with stage four metastatic melanoma cancer. So the skin cancer had moved under the skin into the bloodstream and lodged in his lung and there, or it’s shrinking now, but there was a tumor behind his heart in the lung. That was really when it was found. Multiple doctors were very sober about the prognosis, and it changed our

Kimberly: 38:43 Entire life. So after you got engaged, you found out he had stage four cancer. This was

Natalie: 38:46 Just in May. I mean, this is this year, right? Just in May, we got this diagnosis and the clinical trial that we found that was going to get this thing moving and healing was in la. So after 20 years in New York,

Kimberly: 39:01 That’s why you moved here.

Natalie: 39:02 That’s why we moved here.

Kimberly: 39:04 Wait, so hold on. So you get engaged. We get

Natalie: 39:06 Engaged. I think it was 2021,

Kimberly: 39:09 And you’re like, I’m going to spend my life with this person. Everything great, let’s go. And then boom. Cancer diagnosis, cancer

Natalie: 39:15 Diagnosis.

Kimberly: 39:16 Man, what a trip. It’s

Natalie: 39:18 A trip. And it was one of those things where I think maybe sometimes when people get a difficult diagnosis, there’s a natural nesting that people want to do. Okay, we’re going to deal with this very large thing, so let’s go in. Ours was not that story because the clinical trial for his particular diagnosis was in Los Angeles, and we were in Brooklyn. So not only did we get this diagnosis, but we packed up and left. Everything moved across the immediately, immediately I found us an apartment. I got us out of our old apartment. He was already starting to think about the different healing practices. He wanted to go in the nutrition. Speaking of the container, right? Yeah. The nutrition, the physical practices is the spiritual practices, the western medicine, the immunotherapy, throw the kitchen sink at it, get the mindset, get the heart ready, then get the physical

Kimberly: 40:15 Body going. It must’ve been quite shocking. Shocking because he’s yoga practitioner, musician, very in wellness. So I think anytime that happens, it’s like, whoa, my energy has been pretty good. What’s going on here?

Natalie: 40:29 And I think there’s a harmful myth in the wellness industry that if I do all my practices and if I eat

Kimberly: 40:36 Well,

Natalie: 40:36 Then I’ll live forever. And

Kimberly: 40:39 I’m immune to

Natalie: 40:39 This. I’m immune to this.

Kimberly: 40:41 And we don’t know all the reasons. Shiva Ray was this big. She got breast cancer, and it was like this shock in the yoga community. And it’s like, well, she’s human. She’s human with genetic backgrounds, lifestyle, karmic. There’s lots of things going on,

Natalie: 40:58 And we are in borrowed bodies. We are on this planet for a borrowed amount of time. How can we let a diagnosis become the teacher? How do we discover health in the highest form? How do we discover our own ability to turn toward difficulty and challenge in the highest way, knowing that what’s going to happen to the body is partially up to us and partially not up to us,

Kimberly: 41:31 But Natalie, the fear, that’s such the freeing statement, but the fear of, I love this person, my fiance, the fear for yourself, which I think is natural. I’m going to be left alone. Maybe I can’t have kids, maybe my dreams. So it’s like there’s that. And then like I said to you, your whole life can be dedicated to this person’s care. And how do you lose yourself’s boundaries? I mean, there’s so much in there. I

When moving through difficulties how do you not lose yourself and keep your boundaries

Natalie: 41:57 Think this will not be everybody’s experience, but this was mine. The diagnosis of stage four, the prognosis being very sober. There was a potential that two years was on the line, and maybe that was it. And if it spreads to the brain, really scary things. And I think in those moments, there is a sort of Hollywood cinematic version that we see in the movies where it’s like nothing else matters. It is just his survival. Everything falls away. And the mortality piece has just brought everything into

Kimberly: 42:44 Crystalline. We never argue anymore. This is perfect love.

Natalie: 42:49 We never argue anymore.

Kimberly: 42:51 It’s just about

Natalie: 42:52 This. And it’s true law, totally. Everything is clear. And I do think it’s a harmful story that exists in the world, because my reality, our reality was that what happened was anything that was lying under the surface of our relationship actually mushroom clouded and came up to the very top. And it asked us to look at the things in our relationship that we hadn’t

Kimberly: 43:23 After the diagnosis.

Natalie: 43:26 And what it asked us to hold was a higher vision for our relationship. And if you hold the higher vision, then some of the things that are more surface related, the things that are more gnarly or difficult, have to be seen and tended to in order to move through them. Because the goal, the vision, the horizon of being together of a long life together has to take precedent. So in that way,

Kimberly: 44:00 Things get

Natalie: 44:01 Cancer has become the teacher. And not in a fantasy way, not in this all is roses. And I don’t know what I thought,

Kimberly: 44:15 But are there things that get suppressed because you’re like, well, I don’t want to inflame him or jar his nervous system, so maybe I just won’t talk about this right now.

How having a community and sisterhood can support you through the good and not so good trials of life

Natalie: 44:26 Girl, if I didn’t have the community around me, sisterhood, mentors, I would really be lost. Because I also felt like, can I be in an argument? Can his nervous system take you?

Kimberly: 44:39 Right? Like, oh man, he’s so delicate right now he’s got stage four cancer. But then there’s your needs as a woman, as a partner, as a fiance to be wife. Yeah, you’re human. So there’s this balance between losing yourself and being caregiver young. I mean, this isn’t like cancer happening in sixties, seventies. You guys are young, right?

Natalie: 45:01 And I think that this was,

Kimberly: 45:03 And also even if it was obviously Sure, sure, sure. And any age, losing yourself at

Natalie: 45:08 Any age. I think the difference or the shift that we felt was because he has to be single point of focus on healing. We have to just zero in on the assignment. The assignment is survive. The way in which our disagreements came to pass changed. So in the past, maybe we’d be reactive, maybe we’d be yelling at each other. Maybe I’d get shut down. Maybe he wouldn’t. However, that dynamic went in the past, it had to change because we had to be more conscious with our conversation. We had to be more loving. We had to be more aware of each

Kimberly: 45:52 Other, letting things go. And so that’s a life practice. We’re

Natalie: 45:58 Still in it. What about

Kimberly: 45:59 The patterns? So that sounds great, and you know that consciously, but sometimes it’s like, oh, you really hurt me, and I don’t want to let this go.

Natalie: 46:09 I ask myself the question I ask myself when we are in disagreements, especially when the risk is so high right now, the nervous system is a talk place, is before I say anything, I try to ask myself, what’s truer? What’s truer than that? Is there something that’s truer than that? And then I also try to ask myself, where am I coming from right now? Am a house plant? Am I hungry? Am I hydrated? Have I slept? And then, okay, next, where am I coming from in a deeper place? I’m coming from a wound. I’m coming from a pain. I’m coming from a guilt.

46:58 And then wherever, when I keep asking those questions, at some point, there’s some kind of bedrock. There’s some kind of truth that you head at the very bottom generally that is always kind. And that’s where I do my best. And look y’all human as the next. I don’t always get there. Not every disagreement happens this way, but I really do my best to say, okay, let’s come from the most true place that I possibly can. Usually that’s a place of kindness. And can I deliver it in such a way where I’m breathing, I’m open, and I’m receptive to who he is. That has not been every single experience that we’ve had the last year, but it’s been where we’ve been called to find each other

Kimberly: 47:55 And to find yourself and to surrender to this is what is your partner surrender stage four cancer. You love this person. You move across the country. I mean, there’s just, this is life

Natalie: 48:09 Surrender. Let’s go back to that word. Surrender comes from the old French sewer render, sewer meaning over and render meaning to give back. So there’s a talk that I give where it’s like, well, it’s to give over. It’s to give back over in the reflexive. That’s to give oneself over. And if you slow that down, it’s to give one’s self, small self over to surrender the small self over to what wants to happen, what needs to happen, what’s emerging in the space between us, what’s emerging within me. And a lot of what I’ve had to surrender is what I think should happen, what I want to happen, what I think you should do. Cancer is such an incredibly personal individual experience for the patient, for the one healing and for the caregiver. And a lot of people have ideas, mental ideas of what could needs to happen and what happens when you surrender into what’s happening right now. And then the next moment, and then the next,

Kimberly: 49:34 When my mom had stage four cancer, and I said, oh, I know how to fix this. I’ve worked with other cancer patients. We’re going to do this. We’re going to do that. We’re going to eat this way. We’re going to all these things. And it was clear at a certain point, it happened quickly for her. It was six weeks until she passed. And I remember the moment where, and my dad couldn’t handle it. My older son wasn’t a year old, so I was like, new mom handling my dad, working with my dad. It was just a lot. But I remember the moment where there was this really profound shift, and my prayers changed, intense prayers of, please mom, better. She’s going to heal. I’m going to be part of this. We’re going to do this to thy will be done. Let her be in peace. And for me, it became obvious that her journey was not to heal, but to move to the next experience. So there was this out of control, full surrender. This is the will of God. She is not going to get better. And that was that, oh, I want to support her peace and her soul.

Natalie: 50:36 Wow.

Kimberly: 50:37 Right? So I know exactly what you’re talking about, where the surrender is right there. Or you can fight it, or I think this is when grief goes on for many years versus, and this depends, it’s very personal, our level of faith, but I do believe the will of spirit,

Natalie: 50:58 To your point, we can fight the surrendering, and that is what we call suffering.

Kimberly: 51:06 Yeah. Yes. Suffering versus not everything’s going to go away in life, but living this way. And one of the reasons, I just love your spirit in the world, Natalie, just showing up, being bright, being present. Like you said, the way you teach the class or the way you’re conducting your relationship is, let’s see how this is meant to unfold instead of pushing your way on top. Yeah,

What ‘unfolding versus pushing your way through life’ looks like

Natalie: 51:37 And I think it’s also, we are really only, I think it’s the fourth agreement, and Don Miguel Ruiz, what is my best look like right now? If my attempt is to just be the best that I can in that moment, sometimes the best is really showing up. And a hundred percent, and maybe my best is just being able to say, babe, you’re going to have to, I need some space, or I need time to recover and recoup. And it’s really hard when you’re the caregiver to do that because you’re in a different position. And that’s a lesson. I am learning to own my own needs amidst somebody else’s needs. And I think I’m not there yet. Just to be totally frank, I’m en route, as Maya Angelou says, I’m en route. But I haven’t reached that full embodiment of that lesson yet.

Kimberly: 52:41 Well, it’s a big lesson, the fact that you’re on the journey, the fact that you see it, the fact that you’re surrendering the fact that you’re embracing this, it’s so amazing. Natalie, thank you so much for sharing your heart, your wisdom, your gut, your voice with us.

Natalie: 52:58 Thank you for having me on here. I love you. Thank you for sharing your heart with me and for all the listeners out there. Really, really grateful for the privilege of your time and your ear.

Kimberly: 53:08 Oh, my love. Thank you so much. It’s been amazing and just nourishing.

Natalie: 53:17 Love you.

Kimberly: 53:18 Love you too.

I hope you enjoyed our conversation today. I absolutely loved speaking with Natalie. Please be sure to check out the show notes. We will link to more information about Natalie. Her website is, this is Natalie. You can also learn more about the class. You can also find other podcasts I think you would enjoy. So we will link to everything directly on there. Looking forward to connecting with you more as well. We’ll be back as always, Thursday for our next q and a show and looking forward to continuing to support you this New Year’s. We’re still in that beautiful New Year’s vibe, so sending you so much love, so much support. See you back here soon and Namaste.